Video question - reefed

[Brian M. Godfrey]

   We went out last Tuesday (11/19) and the predicted wind speed was high teens with gusts well into the 20s.  We hadn't reefed the boat other than a year and a half ago during the "sea trial", so we decided to practice in the bay before heading out.  Once reefed, the boat popped along at about 6.5 kts and behaved very pleasantly, so we just left it reefed.  We had a pleasant sail and hit 8 kts, GPS, a few times coming back in - probably due to surfing.  We raised the sail fully when the wind died shortly after entering the bay.  It was a 7 hour sail and we came home very tired, but it was good-tired, not bad-tired.
   I asked Mark (friend with iPhone) to do a video that I could show you all and it is now posted on YouTube.  If you feel inclined to look at it and offer critique or suggestions it will be appreciated.
   The video is here.  YouTube tries to force short videos into a "Short" format.  Unfortunately, that includes lower resolution even in the "normal: viewer.
https://youtube.com/watch/k4-gzldPuPo?feature=share

   If you prefer the short format you will find it here:
https://youtube.com/shorts/k4-gzldPuPo?feature=share

   I did notice the problem with the batten, though I don't know how critical that is given how rarely we sail reefed. 

   Thanks,

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--Brian M. Godfrey
  Vela, NS33 #77, San Diego
  br...@wildbirdshop.com

[Bruce Clark]

Brian, glad you enjoyed your reefing experience. If you have not reefed in a year and half you must be in a pretty low wind place. When you are over 20 knots the sail shape is a bit less important, but still nice to have good shape. I am of the reef early school after 50+ years of sailing and tens of thousands of miles offshore. If you are not sure if you need a reef when you are at the dock, put it in then. Much easier to take the reef out than put it in once you are sailing. I would like a flatter sail shape than in the video. Before starting the reef, ease the choker line, then ease the halyard slightly beyond where it will be when you are done - Sharpie marks one the halyard help with this. Tighten the tack as much as possible and then the same with the clew. Tighten the halyard and take in on the choker to flatten the sail. You see lots of boats (not just Nonsuches) overpowered when s reef would make things more manageable and you would likely go faster too.

Bruce Clark

Nonsuch 30, “Nonsuch”

Whitby YC, Ontario 

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[Aloki / Oyster Bay NY]

Flat seas and a reef in, you’re one fortunate fellow. Looks like a great day aboard. Good for you.

Gary/Aloki/NY

[Joe Valinoti]

Sorry to disagree with you, Bruce, but you should never tighten the halyard last.  Doing that puts a very high strain on the slugs and the track and can cause broken slugs and pulling the track loose from the mast.  The proper order is  halyard, tack, clew and then the choker.

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

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[Jim Cosgrove]

Joe, my order of tightening operations has been tack, halyard, clew, choker. Especially if I’m leaving the dock and I know I’m going to reef it just helps to have pretightened the tack. What am I missing by not tightening the halyard first?

Jim Cosgrove 

Fate 30U #343

Galesville MD

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[Tim in STL, NS26Ue White O'morn]

Maybe I am misunderstanding this, but how can you tighten the halyard before you have tightened the Tack?  What keeps the halyard from just continuing to raise the sail?

Tim in STL
White O’morn NS e26U #216
Harbor Point Yacht Club
West Alton, MO

[Brian M. Godfrey]

   Yes, most of the year San Diego has pretty light winds.  Deciding which days to sail is usually a matter of scanning Windy looking for a day with adequate winds.  Last winter was my first winter with a boat down here, but the boat was out of commission due to mast repairs.  So I'm not sure how the winter weather will be.  Winters are pretty mild here - they don't really even have an actual "winter" - but they do get occasional mild storms.  So we'll see how it is this winter.  (I'm from the Oregon coast where only nutcases are brave enough to sail in the ocean most of the year.)
   Our plan is to continue to practice putting in the reef while the sail is fully raised.  We did it fine (and pretty much how you described) but it took a long time and we did it with the engine running and in gear.  It was our first time, after all.  We hope to get really good at it, but we'll see. 
   I was unhappy with how much curve was in the sail, but was unsure what to do about it.  This is one thing I was hoping to get good feedback on.  We did wind in the choker as far as it would go, but it didn't do much.  And I was not confident to haul in too hard on the aft reefing line.  I have never owned a small sailboat like this and the forces on a large gaff-rigged schooner are completely different.  The thought of winching really hard on a piece of cloth weirds me out.  :-)  Should I do it?
   We have a Sharpie mark on the halyard for full-height.  We talked about putting marks on it for the reef points, but want to make sure we've really got it down well before we make them because they are pretty permanent.

--Brian M. Godfrey
  Vela, NS33 #77, San Diego
  br...@wildbirdshop.com

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[Brian M. Godfrey]

   "Flat seas and a reef in, you’re one fortunate fellow. Looks like a great day aboard. Good for you."

   That was taken while we were still in the bay.  :-)
   If you look beyond us you'll see the North Island navy base.  Then we go out a long channel and must stay in the channel due to an almost impassable minefield of lobster pot buoys that start immediately on the other side of the channel buoy line.  That's the most challenging part, though it was easy on that day due to the NW winds.  Point Loma really speeds up the winds for a short stretch, then it's open sea all the way to Japan.
   But it was a great day aboard and I feel very lucky to be able to sail in the "winter". 

--Brian M. Godfrey
  br...@wildbirdshop.com

[Brian M. Godfrey]

   Same question here.  The "Sailing a Nonsuch Cat Boat" document on the Nonsuch website (I did read it, Bob! :-) says tack first then halyard.

--Brian M. Godfrey
  br...@wildbirdshop.com

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[Joe Valinoti]

Sorry all, I misspoke.  Tack first then halyard for the reason Tim mentioned. 

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

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[Brian M. Godfrey]

   Whew!  That's a relief.  If someone as experienced as Joe can get it confused, then my fumbling is easier to bear.  :-)
   I suspect you'd get it right the first time in real life, it's different sitting at home in a chair.

--Brian M. Godfrey
  br...@wildbirdshop.com

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[Rob Cohen "Soave" NS33 Westport, CT]

Brian, It might be the angle of the video, but your sail doesn't look as flat as I'd expect a reefed main to look.... I am new to NonSuch, so maybe my comment is off-base.  

Did you test your pointing ability while reefed ?  Tuning and trim is easier to assess when close-hauled.

I wonder if you eased the choker,  and luffed the sail,  if you could take in the reef line 12-18" ( my guess from the video is that your luff leach point is about 32" from where the leach line is attached to the wishbone .. 18" would bring the reefpoint 9" closer since it's 2:1 ).  Then adjust your choker and unload the topping lift if it's loaded.  See if it sail-shape changes.  If it improves performance beating,  repeat with smaller increments till it feels optimal.  Being careful not to use excessive force.

In the video, it looks like angle of the reef line to the wishbone is about 45º.  I wonder if experienced NS skippers could comment if this angle is typical?

Would love to see more videos.  Thanks for taking the time to share this one.

Rob Cohen

s/v SOAVE

NS33 #009

Westport, CT

[Brian Godfrey]

The choker and the aft reefing line are both on the same winch.  I have clutches and we did take the choker off and use the winch for the reefing line, too.  But it's fussy going back and forth and I was unsure about everything, so I probably stopped winching too early and didn't get the clew hauled back enough.  I was hoping to hear whether my concern about breaking or ripping something was reasonable or misplaced.  I did not think about easing the choker and then using it to complete the tensioning of the clew.  I'll give that a try next time. 

I, too, am interested in others' opinions of how the aft reefing line is set in the video.

I will probably post more videos in the future as I have other questions.  It's easier and more clear than asking in words - especially when you might not even know what you are doing wrong.  They are just cell phone videos, nothing fancy.  And I'm not getting Mark washed overboard just to take a video, so there probably won't be any in rough water.

Thanks,

Brian Godfrey

Vela, NS33 #77, San Diego

[Rob Cohen "Soave" NS33 Westport, CT]

Brian, I share your concern about load on the choker and wishbone. I'm still working out the procedure for reefing on Soave, and don't have answers ( yet ).  My current reefing and sail handling thoughts are :

1. Last season ( while trying to flatten my very old main ) I got the feeling I needed to personally inspect the hanger and choker attachment points on the wishbone before applying more than moderate load.  I ended up deciding to do a full on the ground mast & wishbone inspection this winter.  After seeing how Soave is built, I have more confidence in her ability to handle sensible loads even under rough conditions.  I've found a couple places where stainless fittings are not properly isolated from aluminum, but none caused enough corrosion to compromise structural integrity ( yet ).  Hanger pad-eye area of the Soave's wishbone was the most needy in terms of arresting corrosion.  At this point I think my weakest link is the winch mounted on my cabin top.  When I service the winch, I'll be checking the backing plate and cabin top to see if the deck core is compromised in that area.
2. The general reefing procedures offered in this thread are good, but I haven't successfully choreographed the reefing dance on Soave.  I'm currently using me and two crew.  One crew at the helm, one at the main sheet, and me in the forward cockpit on the reef lines, halyard, and choker.  
3. Soave has three cleats mounted on the cabin top next to the winch used for the choker. The designers intent (  I think?  ) is that the reef lines would use either the clutch or a cleat to secure the reef lines.  My thought is that ( while reefing ) setting up the new clew, should not require much effort because the sail won't be loaded and the halyard / choker will be eased.  I have not done this in heavy air yet.  The new clew would be set per a measured mark on the reef line before halyard, or choker are set.  Maybe reef can be set by hand with the clutch open, while using a quarter wrap on the cleat to milk the last few inches of the reef line in.  If the winch is needed, it's ok because the other lines are not loaded yet and once the new clew is set the reef line gets transferred to the cleat.  I like the idea of using the cleat to ease the reef line instead of the clutch because clutches sometimes don't release easily after being loaded.  I am currently using a clutch to secure my halyard and choker and it has worked OK... maybe clutch is OK for the reef line as well.
4. On Long Island Sound we don't see high winds in the summer ( except thunder storms which we try to avoid) , the 1st reef reduces sail enough.  The second reef is fed through the wishbone, but not up through the 2nd reef clew.  This way I don't have as much extra line to foul when hoisting or dousing the main, but on a windy day, I could setup for the possibility of a 2nd reef at the dock.
5. Lastly, since my sail is in it's twilight, I'm observing other boats to look for any useful innovations that may have taken hold over the years before purchasing a new sail.  Most of the variations I've noted are to make sail recovery and storage easier.  Full battens seem to have been experimented with, but have fallen from favor.  I'm liking my over the top cover, but do find I have to fuss a bit to get the sail to sit right before I cover it.  When I drop the sail, it tends to bunch forward between folds.  I end up running up and down the leach a couple times tugging the sail back and roughly adjusting where the sail folds are.   I may specify  full battens for the upper two pockets to reduce this tendency.   The only sail performance innovation I've noticed is some interesting wear patterns on stern corner castings on some boats.  The orientation of the wear seems to imply that they might have been used to secure a temporary barber haul to compensate for a lack of traveler... not something I see as particularly beneficial and possibly dangerous.   I've use the corner castings to secure the boom while Soave is docked to reduce bouncing,  but I am careful to only use soft shackles or dock-line so I don't contribute to further wear.   

Sorry for the wordy post, this is the off-season in NY and it's easy to ramble sitting in front of the wood-stove.  Too cold to go to the boatyard today.

Rob Cohen

s/v SOAVE

NS33 #009

Westport, CT

[Ken Dakin]

Having looked at the photo Brian, my first thought was that the clew reef setting was too loose. My understanding is that the reef line length under load from the exit sheeve to the cringle should be about 12 inches. 

 But the most important step in my view is to raise the stern end of the boom to the cringle using the topping lift before tensioning the clew reef line. I don’t recall seeing this point in your’s or Rob’s summary of reefing procedure but perhaps I missed it. It is far simpler to get the reef line tension you want by raising the boom to the cringle than to try and pull the cringle down via the reef line to the boom with the sail flogging etc. Read the Nonsuch sailing guide Bott’s Thots  on the member side of the INA website.

So, underway, my reefing steps with engine started and in gear, boat pointed into the wind are : 1) release choker and main sheet 2) lower halyard 3) tension tack reef 3) raise and tension halyard 4) raise boom via topping lift 5) tension clew reef 6) release topping lift 7) tension choker 8) tension main sheet. If I’m reefing at the dock, I follow the same procedure of setting the tack reef and raising the boom before leaving.

 By this procedure, it is easy to tension the clew reef line to the cleat without aid of a winch or clutch. On my boat, the topping lift is a simple setup, I raise the boom high, just short of contact between the upper and lower topping lift blocks. I used to hand crank the topping lift winch but this procedure is now very easy as we use an eWincher which has ample capability to raise the boom as would other mechanical means like a right angle drill setup etc.

Ken Dakin

NS 33 #7

Sashay

Kingston ON

Sent from my iPad

On Nov 29, 2024, at 11:52 AM, Rob Cohen "Soave" NS33 Westport, CT <rob....@gmail.com> wrote:

Brian, I share your concern about load on the choker and wishbone. I'm still working out the procedure for reefing on Soave, and don't have answers ( yet ).  My current reefing and sail handling thoughts are :

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[Ed S]

Never heard about the 12 inches between exit sleeve to cringle so will check it next time I reef if only on a no wind day in my slip.

Everything else looks good particularly the point about raising the boom to bring the reef line in line with the boom.

Here’s a pic of my last reefing.  Seeing it here makes me think I should have the sail drawn further aft and down.  At that time I thought it was a good reef but didn’t focus much on it as the boat was sailing nicely.

Ed Strazzini

PELICAN, N33#36

Deltaville, Va

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 29, 2024, at 21:23, Ken Dakin <kend...@gmail.com> wrote:

Having looked at the photo Brian, my first thought was that the clew reef setting was too loose. My understanding is that the reef line length under load from the exit sheeve to the cringle should be about 12 inches. 

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[Rob Cohen "Soave" NS33 Westport, CT]

Ed, 

Thanks for the photo.  Approximately, how many inches of halyard to you ease when preparing to reef ?  In your picture,  your 1st reef tack seems higher than I was guessing it would land.  The top 2/3 of your sail seems flatter than the lower 1/3.

I am thinking the measurement used when dropping the halyard is a repeatable constant ( for a given sail ) that determines where the tack lands after reefing, which in turn establishes the ability of the new reef clew to flatten the lower third of the reefed sail area ( most of which is below the wishbone ) relative to the upper 2/3.  My visualization is sort of like moving a jib car to adjust the angle of genoa sheets so the sail luffs evenly along it's tack, except in our case the height of the sail is a coarse adjustment and the topping lift is a fine adjustment that can be used to de-power the top of the sail and possibly flatten the bottom since the choker keeps the wishbone from going forward.  

Am I looking at this correctly ?  Or maybe missing something ?

When using the topping lift, I worry about over stressing the rig.  The topping lift has a lot of purchase and if you raise the boom with the choker already tight it gets tighter. 

Thanks again for the photo,

[Brian M. Godfrey]

   Three of us did the reefing that first time, but that's only because there were three on the boat and it was convenient.  Also, doing is a better way to learn than watching, so involving both of them was good.  In 2023 when I asked the broker (who is also a professional racing captain) to reef the sail during the sea trial the winds were very light and he just popped over from the helm and did it so fast that nobody even needed to steer.  I doubt we'll ever get to that level, but we'll improve with practice.
   I've been told by a couple of long time local sailors that I'll never need the 3rd reef in San Diego.  I think that is probably true, but I have chosen to keep it rigged during the winter for a number of reasons.  First, they are used to sloops or multi-masted boats and mine has all of its sail area in one big sail.  They can take down or furl or even "roller reef" a headsail.  My only way of reducing sail area is to reef.  Second, I've noticed that most sailboats stay inside the bay unless the ocean is pretty flat.  They have lots of races inside the bay, etc.  So I suspect that nobody gets into the 2nd reef around here because most of them just wait for a better day.  You don't have to wait long because they really don't have "winter" down here.

   I wonder about my sail.  I don't have the experience to know just how much life it has left in it.  It's certainly not pristine, but was heavily built for S.F. Bay area racing, where heavy weather is apparently common(?), so I don't think it's going to rip apart within my lifetime.  I don't like how the batten sits against the wishbone when it is reefed, but nobody has commented on that, so maybe it's ok?
   Regarding sail storage.  My StackPack is old and was damaged while loading/transporting the boat in early 2023 (during a windstorm and then a blizzard).  But even so, I wouldn't give it up.  It was a requirement when looking for a boat, both for safety and convenience.  (Or I would have had to add one, myself.)  I get so tired by the end of a day of sailing that I have no energy left to fuss with the heavy sail.  With the StackPack the sail drops into it with a satisfying whump and then you don't have to do anything until you are at the dock.  Then you just disconnect the halyard and zip it up.  Something to think about if you plan on getting older along with your boat.

--Brian M. Godfrey
  Vela, NS33 #77, San DIego
  br...@wildbirdshop.com

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[Brian M. Godfrey]

   Thanks, Ken.  I am going to print this out and take it with me the next time we sail.  And I'll look up Bott's Thots.  We plan to practice reefing every time we go out until we get good at it. 
   I haven't messed with the topping lift for a number of reasons.  First, it just hasn't been necessary while sailing.  Second, it's old and all fuzzy and doesn't handle well - it needs replacing.  Third, I really need to grease its winch.  (It's actually on my list for my next boat visit.  Which means I might get to it sometime this winter. :-)  And fourth, I guess I don't know all of the reasons one might need to adjust it.  (Like in reefing.)

--Brian M. Godfrey
  Vela, NS33 #77, San Diego
  br...@wildbirdshop.com

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[Brian M. Godfrey]

   Yeah, that after reefing line looks a lot better than mine did.

--Brian M. Godfrey
  br...@wildbirdshop.com

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[Rob Cohen "Soave" NS33 Westport, CT]

Brian,

Regarding your question about Vela's sail life expectancy, I agree with your assessment.  Your sail looks perfectly capable of doing what you need/want to do with Vela for the foreseeable future ( 2-3 seasons... maybe more ).  

Given your interest level and commitment to sailing, I'll bet you outgrow the sail before it wears out.  

Regarding use of the topping lift.  If the condition of your topping lift pennant is questionable definitely replace it or at-least verify the safety is short enough to keep the wishbone off your bimini & dodger if the pennant fails.  Topping lift gives you the ability to play with sail shape.  I see it as useful on very light wind and also stronger wind conditions... but interesting to observe anytime.

Sail trim is as simple or complicated as we choose to make it and our NonSuch boats are unique.   I'm learning NonSuch sails are more subtle than conventional main / jib rigs.  Our boats don't have as many controls for sail shape, but there are lots of design factors that make sail shape controls more automatic.  

Conventional mains have booms at the foot, so any vertical sail forces pull up and they require lots of down forces ( traveler, vang ) to counteract.  Our wishbones dissect the mainsail so the lower third of the sail pulls down and the upper 2/3 pulls up on our clew.  Sail forces plus wishbone weight plus mainsheet angle causes the wishbone to float to a pretty good height without much help in moderate wind.  This simplifies complexity for the crew but it also lessens the amount of force our sail fabric needs to distribute from key points like our clew.  ( which I've been told reduces the benefit of using super strong composites like North 3Di )

At first I saw the wishbone as a boom ...and the choker  as an outhaul, and I missed the vang (from my Flying Scot days ) but now I'm seeing the wishbone as a combo tool that is both outhaul and vang when using choker and topping lift together.

Have fun.... I envy that your seasons offer more time for sailing.

Rob

[Robert Collie]

Your concerns about breaking things when reefing are quite correct. We have not enjoyed the learning process for reefing as we have broken the clew reefing line twice, ripped stitches at the slides of the sail and suffered with a very baggy lower section of the sail.   Just this year we have learned how to get a flat reefed sail shape without breaking anything and we are hoping for a less costly season next year. 

Best of luck. You are getting lots of good advice. Our mistake was mostly that we were not letting the choker off enough.  Don’t be afraid to let the mast end of the boom extend as far ahead of the mast as you have choker line to allow it before you tighten up the clew reef.  You will tighten the sail using the choker as the last step in the process. Also be sure to tighten your tack and halyard very tight before anything else gets tight.  Go back and retighten the halyard if you get any stretch in it after starting out. 

One “trick” we have started using which we are not sure about its correctness is the extent to which we pull the tack down before tightening the halyard. Initially we thought we had to have the tack cringle above the lower sail slides but now we have learned we can bring it down to the elevation of the primary tack point by arranging the tack line off to the side of the other slides. 

This has given us a much flatter shape in the lower part of the sail. 

Hope you can follow this description. 

All the best. 

Rob Collie

NS 36. #24

Sarnia , Canada

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[Robert Collie]

I found a photo that might help

[Robert Collie]

Ed:

Great to have a photo. 

I had a similar shape and was told by Boston Doyle sail loft that I had too many wrinkles at the clew and too much scalloping at the luff. 

They said I needed much more halyard tension.  Dropping the tack down to as low as possible and tightening the halyard has flattened out the entire sail even below the boom.

Good luck 

Rob

NS36 # 24

Canatara

Sarnia. Canada

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[Mark Powers La Reina 26C Vancouver, B.C.]

Rob has run his tack reef line in the manner suggested by Ed Botterell (Botts) in his booklet "Nonsuch thots By Botts".  You can find the booklet on the INA member's site (you have to sign in) under Members/Sailing a Nonsuch-Guidance. I recommend you give the booklet a read. It answers many of the questions raised in this discussion thread. Starting at the mast you tie the tack line to one of the eyes on the mast collar ( we will assume port side. I suggest using a bowline with a half hitch to keep the bowline from opening under pressure. The loop of the bowline should be small. The one in Rob's picture looks good but as mentioned I would add a half hitch, I have had bowlines slip until the line pulled out. run the tack line up through the reef crinkle to the starboard side and immediately back to the port side and through the turning block. This way the cringle is not at the top of the stack of the sail slides.

If you are having trouble getting enough halyard tension with the full sail up, adding a Cunningham can be helpful. If the problem occurs when you are reefed, Ed had a suggestion.  When reefing haul in the tack reef line until it is almost fully down, then hardened the halyard as hard as you can. Then put the tack reef line around a winch and winch it down a bit. This should provide the tension needed.

At page 3 of Nonsuch thots , Note C, Ed suggests the clew  "Somewhere near a foot above the wishbone is optimum." This depends a bit on the cut of the sail. It is important to remember that there is considerable variety in how the sails are cut and that they stretch with age. The numbers given are approximations.

A few points to keep in mind. It is very difficult to lift the boom on the topping lift when there is tension on the halyard. You have to bend the top of the mast with the topping lift to do it. It is also very hard to lift the back of the boom using the reef line. It is much easier to lift with the topping lift. With those thoughts in mind, i use the following sequence then reefing:

1. Turn the boat and ease the main sheet until I have taken pressure off the sail and the sail is centered over the boom. If the sail is not over the boom it can fall outside and it become difficult to pull in the leech cringle.

2. Ease the choker and harden the topping lift (note you can wait to harden the topping lift until after the tack and halyard are adjusted)

3. Ease the halyard and pull in the tack reef line. Lock the tack line and really harden the halyard (see the note above about halyard tension)

4. Lift the boom with the topping lift if not done in step two. Pull in the leech reef line until the cringle is about 1 foot above the boom (remember this number is approximate)

5. Ease the topping lift, harden the choker.  It should be hard. You are reefing because the wind is strong so you want a fairly flat sail. When hard on the wind you will likely want the sail just kissing the boom or not touch it at all.  (again an approximation)

6 Choose your point of sail and adjust the mainsheet accordingly.

That is the order i use. You can try something else if you like but as Joe says do not harden the choker unless and until the halyard is fully hardened.

Mark Powers

[Brian Godfrey]

Ah yes, that does help.  Thank you.

Brian Godfrey

-- Brian Godfrey

[Brian Godfrey]

   Well you guys have given me a lot to think about and practice on.  Thank you very much!

Brian Godfrey
Vela, NS33 #77, San Diego

-- Brian Godfrey

[Rob Powers]

I did not see it mentioned but when you believe you have the reefing as you like it you may want to mark your lines so it is easily and quickly repeated.

Use a permanent marker or whipping line to mark where you lower the halyard for each reef and where you set the reef lines . I also mark the topping lift and the outhaul, This makes it quicker to get your initial settings and then you can fine tune them based on conditions. 

I can out in a reef fairly quickly, now I just have to learn to sail fairly quickly.

Rob Powers

Respite 26C #50

Sidney BC

[Brian Godfrey]

   I marked my halyard with a Sharpie pen at the fully raised position after recommendations from this group.  (Maybe from you! :-)  That has worked very well and we are planning to mark the reefing lines once we're sure we have them set right.
   The topping lift is white and will be easy.  The choker is black (is that normal?) and so the Sharpie won't show up on it.  I guess I'll need to figure out how to mark that one with thread.

Brian Godfrey
Vela, NS33 #77, San Diego

-- Brian Godfrey

[Mark Powers La Reina 26C Vancouver, B.C.]

Whipping a line is nice but you have to make sure it can run freely through any rope clutches that you have.

For a black line consider a flexible paint in white to mark the line.

I have a wealth of sails and the reefs are not in the same location. That means a different set of marks for each sail. The halyard is white with blue trace so I have to use several different coloured markers. When I just used one sail I could use blue for the first reef and red for the second. Maybe black and green for the second sail.

To answer your question about choker colour. It often depends on what was available when you bought. If you go to a rigger and ask for 35 or 60 feet of 3/8” Dyneema they will not order in a 500 foot roll so you can have it in a particular colour.

When I bought La Reina the lines were all double braided polyester. The halyard and topping lift were white. The choker was solid green, I considered that to be green for go. The first reef tack was solid blue and leech line was white with blue tracer. Cool blue for cooling the speed.. The second reef tack was solid red and the leech was white with red tracer. Red was for stop scaring the crew. I like the colour set up because the crew did not have to read the labels on the rope clutches. I could just ask them to harden or ease the green line or to pull in the small white line when I wanted the topping lift. When I started using Dyneema solid colours were not readily available. To the extent possible I have tired to stick to the colour scheme. My choker is now green with white and yellow tracer.  I suspect no many of use have a black choker although the wishbone choker line as apposed to the wishbone choker tackle is a mixture of black and grey but since it is not handled the colour is not an issue.

Mark Powers

[Brian M. Godfrey]

   What should I use for flexible paint?  It would need to be UV stable which probably rules out most paints that are available in small quantities.

--Brian M. Godfrey
  br...@wildbirdshop.com

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[Daniel Weinstein]

Sharpies come in colors.  I like the gray/silver for marking dark lines. 

Dan Weinstein
Look Farther, 30C #205
East Greenwich RI

[Mark Powers La Reina 26C Vancouver, B.C.]

Brian,

As far as flexible paint you could consider one of the paints designed for inflatable dinghies or a thin coat of Plasti Dip although a light coloured Sharpie might be better.

I have never marked my choker. The only mark I can think of that might be helpful would be the max you ease. The choker for purposes of hoisting and reefing. You want the choker eased enough so that it does not interfere with the topping lift but not so loose that the boom bounces all over snagging the boom hangers on the steaming light. This would be a consistent point, The rest of the time you adjust based on observations of the sail.

What points were you thinking of marking?

Mark

[Brian M. Godfrey]

   Oh yeah!  I have some of those silver ones for marking metal to cut and/or weld.  I'll take one to the boat and try it.  Thanks.

--Brian M. Godfrey
  br...@wildbirdshop.com

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[Brian M. Godfrey]

   I do mess with my choker from time to time, but I tend to avoid it.  The reason is that if I don't bring the boom far enough aft before dropping the sail, then the block at the end of the boom bangs and scratches against the roll bar.  (Plus, I still haven't greased its winch, even though I keep saying I will!)  If I were to put a mark on it for the proper setting when dropping the sail that would really make a big improvement and I'd feel more inclined to fuss with the choker while sailing.

--Brian M. Godfrey
  Vela, NS33 #77, San Diego
  br...@wildbirdshop.com

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[Mark Powers La Reina 26C Vancouver, B.C.]

That makes sense to me. 

Mark Powers

[Brian M. Godfrey]

   Then you should be worried!  :-)

--Brian M. Godfrey
  br...@wildbirdshop.com

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[Mark Powers La Reina 26C Vancouver, B.C.]

I used to worry about a lot of things, I have reduced my worry level and now only worry about everything.

Mark Powers

[Brian Godfrey]

   That makes sense to me.

Brian

-- Brian Godfrey

[Tom Schoenhofer 26C#28 North Star Penetanguishene]

Marking the reef lines is very helpful. The marks help get it right the first time.

I use bright yellow or green electrical tape tightly wrapped around the line. I don't have any rope clutches just cleats which work fine for me.

I would avoid permanent marks because of different sails or changes to the clew lashing or the position of the tack (this should not change but I am constantly changing the blocks at the mast). Also I end to end the reef lines every few years so extra marks get confusing. No marks on the halyard, it is tightened as hard as I can make it. Choker is tightened to lift the sail off the boom. When reefed the boat sails better upwind with a flat sail.

Caution on the the Choker being tight upwind. 

Before you round the windward mark and ease the boom, ease the choker a bit first. As your boom goes out it tightens the choker and if it is already tight the weakest link may break. This could be the sail or the slides ripping out of the sail or the track ripping off the mast. 

Tom

26C #28

Penetanguishene

[Daniel Weinstein]

Tom-

You might want to reconsider how you tighten your halyard.  "...tightened as hard as I can make it" might not be a good idea.  From a sailing perspective, the luff stretch is key to sail shape, and thus performance.  Light winds don't need a wire-tight halyard.  Over-tightening also stresses seams unnecessarily.  And probably everything else, even the mast.  Maybe you won't break the track stop out at the masthead, but why find out the hard way :-) ?  I've found that I can tighten my halyard much tighter than than it should be, even in heavy air.   So I marked for full, and for my reefs.  In light air, I know to stop about 2" before the mark, heavy, 2" after.  You distances will depend on your halyard material and sail construction- they all have different "stretchiness".   

Another value to the marks... If they don't "show up" as expected, I know something is jammed. Last season I didn't realize how much my flag halyard stretched, and the wind wrapped it onto the track, where it got jammed between the slide and the track, nearly at the top of the mast.  It wasn't easy to un-jam and lower my sail so I could correct it.  If I didn't have the marks, I'd have tightened more (the wind was up), and might not have been able to lower the sail.  

Dan Weinstein
Look Farther, 30C #205
East Greenwich RI

[Bob Neches (Me Gusta, Nonsuch 26U #233)]

Having just switched to a new sail (more on that in some future separate posts), I learned two related things about halyard tension from my sailmaker:

1. I was tightening the old sail extremely without getting it as flat as I wanted because its luff line had stretched and work-hardened over decades of use.
2. Consequently, I was putting way too much tension on my new sail because I was assuming without thinking that I should do what I'd always done.  My sailmaker took one look at it and (politely) whapped me upside the head.  He pointed out that overtensioning the new sail was defeating my shaping purposes by creating a vertical shelf in the sail.  Furthermore, it was just accelerating the stretching of the new luff line, meaning that it would take the new sail to the failed state of the old one that much sooner.

Two takeaways, at least for my own sail adjustments.  First, always check for too little or too much.  Second, treat my marks on control lines not as an exact target to get in the same place every time, but rather as a indicator that I'm getting close and it's time to look up and check how I should be doing the finetuning for the current conditions.

Started learning to sail 52 years ago.  Still learning.

-- Bob

   Me Gusta

   Nonsuch e26U #233

   Marina del Rey, California

[Thor Powell]

Couple of things regarding reefing.  According to my sailmaker newer sail cloth is much tighter than older cloth due to better manufacturing techniques.  This requires "no stretch " halyards to exploit the better weave. The old dacron lines needs to be retired. 

I have used a block at the tack.  This has two advantages. One,  little resistance  and can be set without using a winch. As well is pulls the tack down to the base of the sail pack placing the strain where the reinforcement is and keeping it tight. You are no longer  trying to squeeze a foot of loosely folded sail . 

[Tom Schoenhofer 26C#28 North Star Penetanguishene]

You are right but every sail is different and you should not treat a new sail like an old one. Botts made my sail and straight from his mouth the advice was tighten the luff as hard as you can make it for the best sail shape. He built the sail to have it tight and this makes it nice and smooth sailing upwind and it's easy to add draft by easing the choker off the wind which you must do anyway. This sail doesn't work too well in light air because it is so heavy. 

My other sail is very old, 40 plus years and bagged out, and to get it flat the luff needs tension. However because it's old the draft is moved back and this sail doesn't work as well. But it is about half the weight (or at least it feels that way) of the Botts sail so is much easier to hoist.

" Maybe you won't break the track stop out at the masthead, but why find out the hard way :-) ?" I'm not sure what that means but neither sails head comes near the track stop at the masthead. There's a good 2-3 feet of room there. I think the designer did that to keep the sail head from touching the topping lift.

You are absolutely right about hoisting the sail. If the luff isn't tight when the halyard tension goes up then there is something wrong and time to stop and look to see what the problem is. I can usually raise the light weight sail to the top by hand before putting it on the winch for the final tighten.

Another point on raising the sail/halyard tension- the cast bronze slides with a bit of soap on a clean track make the sail go up easily and fall down instantly. The stamped steel slides on the steel track bind and jam and you may have to pull the sail down even with the same soaping and cleaning. There's that extra friction from all the steel slides that adds to the effort on the winch.

On a Nonsuch sail draft is not adjusted by easing the halyard or downhaul like on some other sailboats. The choker is used to flatten the sail. The mast is already bent aft from the weight of the boom but when you add tension on the choker it bends even more. This curve or bend flattens the sail. First tighten the halyard enough to get rid of the wrinkles on the luff and get it tight (on some sails this might be a lot on a new sail will be less), then tension the choker to lift the sail off the boom and this may be a lot of tension too. Botts said this is the way it was designed.

Tom

26C #28

Penetang

[Rob Cohen "Soave" NS33 Westport, CT]

Since Botts ( Ed Botterell ) is mentioned in this thread, I think it is fitting to take a moment to mention his passing a few days ago. 

The Nonsuch community owes him much.  ( HERE ) is a sample of his writing that illustrates his commitment, passion, and good humor.

He's one of the guys I wish I could have met, but never will.

[Julie & Lloyd on Rendezvous]

Sad to hear about Botts.

I had the good fortune to spend a day with Botts, helping him install a Tides Strong Track, sail, and Stack-Pac on a 36' Nonsuch, lunch at some point, and a sail on my 30 footer to make sure I had installed our Tides and new sail he made me for our boat.  The owner on the 36 had ordered the wrong length Tides, so we had to take it down after putting it up, cut it, drill it, and put it back up.  The sail with him was very interesting - tiny little changes and then we were going much faster!  Could have sailed daily for a month and probably would have been learning something new each day.

Strike eight bells.

lloyd herman

Rendezvous, 30U

Port Washington, NY

[Ron Schryver]

Botts knew more about Nonsuch sails than just about anyone. I ordered a sail from Ed. When I went to raise it the sail kept jamming on the track. It was almost impossible to raise. The sail loft had put stainless slides on the sail by mistake. I told botts about this and he said no problem, I'll drive up to Midland and solve your issue.

He told me to take all the bronze slides off the old sail. Once he got there he sat on the foredeck with legs crossed and sewed all the bronze slides by hand in about an hour. Now that's service!

Sad news to lose such a knowledgeable gentleman with a heap of integrity to boot.

Ron

Ron & Diane Schryver

"Alpha Waves" 1987 NS30U #393

Georgian Bay Midland 

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