Bearing clearance for a very hard to turn rudder

[John Barbour - Nature 26U Toronto]

I am looking for the recommended clearance between the rudder shaft and the fiberglass tube it rotates in

The steering on my 26U had become very stiff over about the last two years. When I disconnected the wheel and tried turning the rudder with the emergency tiller I had to push hard with both hands. I have been injecting grease into the tube through the usual greasing hole, which has a fitting for a grease gun, The grease is the usual marine type. Has anyone else had this problem?

A couple of days ago I lowered the rudder to see what was going on.. It was surprising that we had to pull it down for most of the distance.  Then I measured the shaft diameter and the inside diameter of the tube. The diameters were the same, or the tube was a slightly smaller diameter by a couple of thousands of an inch. In other words, the clearance between the shaft and the tube was zero or an interference fit! No wonder the rudder was hard to turn, and to pull down

I don’t know why this has happened. unless the grease has reacted with the fiberglass, making it swell. So now I will use an engine cylinder hone on the fiberglass tube to increase its inside diameter. I was thinking of about 10 thousands of an inch but would like to know what the original clearance was. I have been wandering about the marina waggling the rudders of other Nonsuches and the clearance seems to be about that amount.

For this work I have been using the main halyard winch to lower and raise the rudder. A line runs from the winch to a fitting screwed onto the top of the rudder shaft. The line makes a right angle turn in the top runner bearing, to go down to the rudder. I made a brass fitting to give the turn a smooth radius and coated the line with Teflon spray. The bits are shown in the photos. 

John Barbour

Nature 26U

Toronto

[Bob Neches (Me Gusta, Nonsuch 26U #233)]

John,

Two documents on the INA web site might help. 

Go to Nonsuch.org, and select  MEMBERS -- NONSUCH SHOP DRAWINGS.  On the page that comes up, click on "Nonsuch 26 drawing PDFS".  On the list of drawings that then comes up, I think you might like to download, "Nonsuch26WheelSteering.pdf" and "Nonsuch26RudderTop+SideView.pdf".

Not 100% sure they'll answer your questions but it's the best surviving historical information that I'm aware of.

-- Bob

   Me Gusta

   Nonsuch 26U #233

[JohnS]

John;

You seem to know what you are doing (from all of your posts here and in the archive), but may I put my foot into the circle?

The steering on my 26U had become very stiff over about the last two years. When I disconnected the wheel and tried turning the rudder with the emergency tiller I had to push hard with both hands. I have been injecting grease into the tube through the usual greasing hole, which has a fitting for a grease gun, The grease is the usual marine type.

Might the grease have hardened or solidified in the tube?

Did you clean the rudder shaft down to the steel, and how did you clean the tube? How the heck did you measure the full bore that accurately?

Does fibreglass react to grease?

I don’t know why this has happened. unless the grease has reacted with the fiberglass, making it swell. So now I will use an engine cylinder hone on the fiberglass tube to increase its inside diameter. I was thinking of about 10 thousands of an inch but would like to know what the original clearance was. I have been wandering about the marina waggling the rudders of other Nonsuches and the clearance seems to be about that amount.

The cylinder hones that I have seen have very fine grinding stones. If so, the stones will get plugged up with dried grease/fibreglass in a second. Also, alignment with bore will be problematic. 

Two ideas here. Simple one first. Take a wooden dowel of close-ish in diameter, cut a slot down from the top about 3" to hold sandpaper.  Take a strip of sandpaper, put it in the slot and wrap it around the dowel, take said dowel and push/pull while turning it by hand and see what comes out on the sandpaper. I'd start with about 320 grit, not something too coarse, but that's just my opinion. (which is usually wrong!)

You'll see if it gets gummed up with dried grease. 

  

Second idea - an hour of work to make, if you have the material handy. You seem good with using a lathe. How about making a small boring bar - say about 6" of 1"diam (or whatever the shaft diameter is) of aluminium with a cross drilled hole about 1" from one end to hold a small HSS toolbit. Clearance for swarf/whatever, and a threaded hole to hold the tool bit in place. In the bottom end drilled/tapped for some threaded rod that you can chuck in your drill to turn it and push it up and pull it back. 

In my opinion, you don't need "thou" accuracy, but you do need the tube to remain fairly straight, with clearance for grease.

 

Please keep us informed as to what you find. I'd be interested, for one!

John Stewart

NS26C 046 Bath ON.

[Ron Schryver]

Hi John, you mention that the steering has gotten stiff over time. Apart from old hardened grease the only wear point in that assembly is the plastic washer under the retaining nut. If this washer wears unevenly the rudder shaft would not sit straight in the fibreglass tube. As such the rudder shaft may be making increasing contact with the wall of the fibreglass tube. 

Just another thought.

Ron

Ron & Diane Schryver

"Alpha Waves" 1987 NS30U #393

Georgian Bay Midland ON

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[r]

Good morning,,, just read your post on Rudder issues... 

On my 1986 NS 26....the rudder was so tight that I could barely steer the boat at all even after replacing the bearings in the pedestal and installed 2  new wheels with roller bearings in the radial system,  including checking the cable to be sure no binding was causing the issue and that was no binding at the top of the post where it locks in..   Had to pull the boat out of the water.  

Long story to short,  Needed to use tire jacks to force down and out the rudder post out of the shaft ! ( MAJORLY STUCK RUDDER POST ) using LOL... gals of lubrication while doing so.

Cause:  the dia of the SS rudder post on my boat read 1.870 inched in diameter.  The inside of the  fiberglass shaft the rudder post slides up into had shrunk over the years and measured 1.840 inches    .030 inches too small causing the post to bind !.

 

Resolution. Once the post was out.... Went to auto parts store,  bought a honing tool used to hone eng cylinders.  used with a long flexible extension,. Cleaned the shaft with acetone then honed a little at a time, measuring as we honed ( using calipers )...until the rudder shaft measured about .010 bigger in  dia than the post.  This allowed the post to  slide up into the shaft with ease.    NOTE:. I used proper marine packing grease and geniously packed the inside of the tube and coated the shaft. .  There are NO bearings in the fiberglass rudder post shaft.itself. ( at least on my boat ) .  The shaft is about 14 inches high up from the bottom of the bilge.   Now, I can steer my boat with 2 fingers without issue..

Hopes this helps

Ron B

NS 26

Buona Vita 

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[Joe Valinoti]

Ron:  It would be nice to know where you or the boat is.  Someone near you may have more questions.

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

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[JohnS]

Ron B; 

Very interesting that you used the honing tool; I would have not expected it to work on fibreglass, and have only used it on Cast Iron to remove a thin layer of material.

I presume it was one of the "blades on 3 sprung arms" type?

Did it cut well? did it cut quickly, or slowly, any issues with anything?? What were the shavings/swarf like?

I'd be interested to know - it's another potential tool in the boat-works arsenal. 

Well done!

John Stewart

NS26C 046 Bath, ON.

[ron buonomo]

Correct on tool .. spring loaded 3 prong hone tool.  slowly honed up and down and checked dia after each pass ….only took off about .040 inches.   Mostly dust while honing.  Took all of 15 min…Cleaned again with a acetone then lubed.  Took 1 day to get the post out thou and 2 jacks

Sent from my iPhone

On May 1, 2022, at 13:07, JohnS <ivat...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[ron buonomo]

One other comment I’d make.  Over the years…the inside wall of the fiberglass shaft had probably age hardened and I also believe had increased its overall hardness due to compression and heat build up from the SS rudder post usage. The original lubrication cup on the fiberglass post had not been used for years..The cup was packed hard as a rock with who’s no’s what ?  So the shaft probably never got proper lubrication.          After cleaned and then while honing the shaft …just Fine dust particles were the debris that came out.  The cutting was very smooth without binding or sticking 

The three stone cutting tips of the honing tool did not get clogged up or burned at all due to the shear hardness of the fiberglass.

Ron B

Buona Vita

Sent from my iPhone

On May 1, 2022, at 13:20, ron buonomo <ronbu...@gmail.com> wrote:

Correct on tool .. spring loaded 3 prong hone tool.  slowly honed up and down and checked dia after each pass ….only took off about .040 inches.   Mostly dust while honing.  Took all of 15 min…Cleaned again with a acetone then lubed.  Took 1 day to get the post out thou and 2 jacks

[John Barbour - Nature 26U Toronto]

Thank you everyone for your very useful comments. 

Based on Ron's experience I will try honing. Like other people I was concerned the hone stones would quickly load up. In fact I was going to make some pads which would use 120 grit sandpaper.
However i will try using the  normal stones. Ron, did you add any liquid while you were honing, water for instance?

My boat, #225, was made in 1987. I wonder if Ron's and my boat had the same supplier for the rudder tubes. There may be something different in their material or fabrication which causes long term swelling.

 

Replies to some comments:

I cleaned the shaft to bare metal and made a scraper out of a large washer to scrape the inside of the tube. This was done so the measurements would not be affected by any grease build up.

I checked the top plastic washer and it is in good condition.

To measure the inside diameter of the tube, i have a gauge which can be pushed in then opened up to measure the diameter anywhere along the tube length..

I will try for removal of about 0.010 inches. For comparison, a piece of printer paper is about 0. 005 inches thick.

I don't want to overdo it as a neighbour at the marina had a problem with a vibrating rudder which was traced to a worn rudder tube.

I'll report back  on the honing results.

John Barbour 

Nature  26U

Toronto

[Tom Schoenhofer 26C#28 North Star Penetanguishene]

From the drawing the shaft is supposed to be 1.75 inches, and the tube is shown as 1.875 inches X .25. . It shows the tube is "Nylon" but it looks like a wound composite fiberglass tube. Nylon is hygroscopic and swells when exposed to moisture so anyone designing a bearing using Nylon has to take this into account.

The shaft on my 26C #28  1981 is loose in the tube. It slides up and down easily and there is room for quite a bit of grease but it doesn't wobble. If I undo the top nut and quadrant while the boat is out of the water the rudder would crash to the ground.

Maybe the later boats used a larger diameter rudder shaft? But the same ID tube? 

Also that top bearing in John's 26U is a casting and much heavier than the sheet of aluminum that was originally my top bearing. It wore until the hole was oval, this allowed the top to clunk back and forth.

Tom

26C #28

Penetang

[John Barbour - Nature 26U Toronto]

This is a update on my very hard to turn rudder. I discovered the shaft was very tight in the 12 inch long fiberglass rudder bearing.   Following  Ron’s suggestion I got a three arm automotive cylinder hone and quite easily opened up the inside diameter of the tube by about 30 thousands of an inch. It took about half an hour. Nature launched yesterday and the rudder is very easy to turn. Thanks Ron.

 Here are a few points which may be useful for others.

The fine and medium honing stones just slid on the surface, perhaps because of build up, but the coarse ones worked well. I could only find  coarse stones in hones with a lower diameter limit of 2 inches. I needed 1 7/8” diameter so I sanded about 1/8” off each stone, about half the thickness, and the hone went in easily. 60 grit sandpaper easily cut down the stones.

 The shaft on the hone was only about 4 inches long so I made a 10” shaft extension. This allowed me to make a complete pass down the 12” tube. The modified hone is in the photo.

As a rough check on progress I made a trial piece of aluminum to the same diameter as the rudder shaft and attached it to a long piece of ¼” rod. See the photo. At first I couldn’t push the piece down the tube, but about 10 honing passes later, it  went down all the way. Rattling it sideways gave me an indication of the improving clearances. I stopped when  there was about 30 thousands (0.030”) clearance on the diameter.

 Afterwards, lifting the rudder back up using the main halyard was easy. The only tricky bit was lining up the top of the shaft so it would enter the top bearing.  Installing the emergency tiller and  wiggling the shaft, finally brought it up all the way.

I'm glad this job is finished.

John Barbour

Nature 26 U

Toronto

[Joe Valinoti]

Nice work, John!!

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

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From: John Barbour - Nature 26U Toronto

Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2022 2:02 PM

To: INA Nonsuch Discussion Group

Subject: Re: Bearing clearance for a very hard to turn rudder

 

This is a update on my very hard to turn rudder. I discovered the shaft was very tight in the 12 inch long fiberglass rudder bearing.   Following  Ron’s suggestion I got a three arm automotive cylinder hone and quite easily opened up the inside diameter of the tube by about 30 thousands of an inch. It took about half an hour. Nature launched yesterday and the rudder is very easy to turn. Thanks Ron.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/6b019561-c34d-4777-b312-76d376f64f4bn%40googlegroups.com.