Suitable replacement winch for the Barient 10ST for N26 main sheet?

[esan...@gmail.com]

I'd like to get a 2 speed self-tailing winch to replace the 1 speed Barient 10ST on the starboard coaming of my 1982 NS 26.  That's the winch I use to haul in the main sheet.    I assume the Barient winch is original equipment on the boat. The limiting factor in finding a suitable replacement seems to be the width of the coaming, which is only about 4 inches.  That limits the size of the base of the new winch.  Does anyone have a suggestion for a replacement winch?  Thanks.

Elsie Sands

NS 26 Seven Stars

Maple Bay, BC

[Ernie Abugov P/O NS22 o/b #56 "Moustaches"]

Hi Elsie -

Something about the width of the coaming on your boat doesn't seem to jive. You say it's 4" wide.

On my former boat, Moustaches, an NS22, I had a total of FOUR Lewmar 16 single-speed ST winches. Two were mounted on the cabin top (one each side) and, lucky me, I had a mainsheet winch on each side, mounted at the typical winch placement position on the coaming. That position gives the winch a larger base to sit on as it's rounded. On my 22-footer, that base must have been darn near 5" wide. The Lewmar ST 16 base diameter is about 4.5". Thus, the winch did fit perfectly. I can only assume that this winch placement position on a bigger boat (your NS26) would be even wider, say close to 6". I love the Lewmar Ocean range of winches. My personal recommendation for a new sheet winch is a Lewmar ST 30, a two-speed winch. It has a base diameter of about 5.5" and I'd be very surprised if it would NOT fit on the widened area on the coaming where your present winch is mounted. It would make grinding the mainsheet a walk in the park.

Here are two links to Lewmar 16 and 30 ST winches:

 

https://www.lewmar.com/content/ocean-16st-one-speed-winch

https://www.lewmar.com/content/ocean-30st-winch?v=24969

And, I've attached a small photo showing my PORT side sheet winch happily sitting on the coaming at the apprpriate mounting position.

Good luck with this.

Ernie A. in Toronto

[newelljc9]

Elsie I switched to an Anderson 28 2 speed self tailing winch for the mainsheet over a decade ago. When I changed my rig to a standing gaff I mounted it on the coaming without any difficulty. Please note that one can luff and take in slack without having to exert oneself winching in the mainsheet. Also, you might like to consider adding a snap shackle to the bitter end of the mainsheet. This allows you to have a single purchase in light airs by snapping it onto itself. The single mainsheet line is less likely to pull the wishboom in when running in light airs.

Cheers,

John Newell

Mascouche 26C #1

Toronto

On Monday, July 29, 2024 at 11:41:35 PM UTC-4 esan...@gmail.com wrote:

[Ernie Abugov P/O NS22 o/b #56 "Moustaches"]

Elsie -

As good as Lewmar winches are, Anderson winches are like jewels. They truly are a thing of beauty. And ...... John Newell knows his onions (and winches), a lot. If your bank account can handle it, go with the Anderson.

Folks will stop to admire it !!!

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Chad Demarest]

A bit late, but I'll second the Anderson recommendation, I've worked with them a lot and would use them in a heartbeat even over the chrome Harkens which are very nice winches.  

I put a Karver KCW45 on our 30C, and it's amazing.  The high gear is unlike any other winch out there and, for a mainsheet as long as ours, it's nice to be able to bring in so much sheet so quickly.  The low gear is equivalent to a size 45 winch (hence the name) but the high gear (6.1 power ratio) brings line in faster than any winch I've ever used that's not a 3-speed.  The base is a size 25, so it fits right on the combing and teak spacer with zero modifications.  A little more expensive, but for us it's the perfect mainsheet winch.

I'd be curious if anyone has any experience with the Ronstan winches?  The 30QT, in particular.  Seems to be based on the Anderson (ribs and gearing).  Not jewelry like the Andersons, but for the choker in particular I could see value in the QuickTrim feature...though I'm not sure I understand exactly how it works or what it does.  Anyone used one yet?

Chad Demarest

bluebird (30C)

Kingston, MA / Pocasset, MA

[Bob Neches (Me Gusta, Nonsuch 26U #233)]

Elsie,

I'm not at my boat right now and can't check, but I'm pretty sure that the mainsheet Barient ST winches on both my 26's were more like 16 or 18 than 10, so you should be able to size up.   A Barient 10 sounds very undersized, so I can certainly understand why you want to change it.

Be aware that, according to Mauripro Sailing, Barient "did not use the same numbering scheme as modern Harken, Anderson and Lewmar winches [for which] the number of a winch is prominently the power ratio of that winch."  I've bought stuff from them, and like them, but prices are variable so I'd recommend shopping around.  However, in deciding what size winch you're shopping for, you might want to take a look at this web page of theirs, because it in turn points to the size selection guides for Andersen, Harken, and Lewmar: https://www.mauriprosailing.com/us/category/winches-selection-guide.html

There's another comparison table at https://l-36.com/compare.php which is in a more convenient form because it shows the equivalent models between manufacturers.  However, it hasn't been updated since 1997.  If anyone knows a good source of a more up-to-date comparison table, I hope they'll post it.

If you haven't already considered doing so, a cheap investment might also be to size up the length of your winch handle.  It's surprising how much leverage 2" longer gains you.  

Even if that doesn't help enough and you still need a bigger winch, the longer winch handle will make the new winch more powerful.

Another option to consider is buying an electric winch handle.   This can get more expensive, but can be moved around for us on all the winches --  and taken with you if moving to another boat.  There's a religious debate on this topic between three sects: the Adapt-an-Electric-Drillers, the WinchRiters, and the E-Winchers.   (Listed in ascending order of cost.)   The New Nonsuch Owners Quick Guide on the INA website has a good write-up on the tradeoffs.

-- Bob

   Me Gusta

   Nonsuch e26U #233

[doncr...@gmail.com]

Elsie,

If the cockpit coaming is a little too narrow for a larger modern winch, you could attach to the coaming a Teflon base of the correct diameter to match the new winch’s diameter. Then mount the winch on the Teflon base. You may want this with a slight bevel to align with the angle of the incoming mainsheet. See attached  photo of my winch, it is mounted on a beveled wood base.

 

If you need some help, I recommend Steve White (604-250-2381), of SW Rigging, a good friend of Paul Shield. He is nearby you, lives on Salt Spring island. Steve will know what to do, very experienced, maybe has a better idea than above, and he may even have a 2^nd-hand winch that will work for you.

 

Cheers,

Don

 

 

On Monday, July 29, 2024 at 11:41:35 PM UTC-4 esan...@gmail.com wrote:

I'd like to get a 2 speed self-tailing winch to replace the 1 speed Barient 10ST on the starboard coaming of my 1982 NS 26.  That's the winch I use to haul in the main sheet.    I assume the Barient winch is original equipment on the boat. The limiting factor in finding a suitable replacement seems to be the width of the coaming, which is only about 4 inches.  That limits the size of the base of the new winch.  Does anyone have a suggestion for a replacement winch?  Thanks.

 

Elsie Sands

NS 26 Seven Stars

Maple Bay, BC

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[Bob Neches (Me Gusta, Nonsuch 26U #233)]

Oops.  Because it's in a separate thread of replies to discussion summaries, I missed your post from several days ago in which you said that your early-model boat doesn't have the widened space for winches at the coaming, Elsie.

I've copied your picture over to get it into this thread:

That sure does look tight. 

Maybe John can chip in with how he got his Andersen 28 to fit.     

Looking at the winch base diameter dimension offers a rough guide.  For example, taking a quick look at the dated comparison in that L-36 table I mentioned, it looks like the Andersen 28 base may only be only 0.25 inches bigger than the Barient 10's.  But, that was in 1997 and may have changed since.

The critical dimension you'll want to check will be the distance between bolts for the winch you'd be buying.  This is usually buried in the installation manuals unless you have a physical sample to look at and measure.

However, keep in mind that the coaming's rounded at its edges.  You need room outside the bolt holes for fender washers or backing plates underneath.  These need to lie flat against the underside of the coaming top.  That means the available space for fitting a new winch is actually restricted to the flat space underneath the coaming before it starts to curve, measured from underneath the coaming.   I guess you could safely approximate that by using the width of the nonskid on the coaming top.  (Measuring it more precisely, if you wanted to do so, would entail removing the instrument panel or might require crawling into the compartment and reaching up.) 

I wish I could help by being able to just say, "Oh, just buy an X."   But, the devil's in the details.

If you're not doing the installation yourself, the winch installation may require some labor and additional parts costs to factor in.  (Something to keep in mind if weighing the new winch vs. an electric winch handle cost tradeoffs.)

[BRIAN CAYER]

Teflon base 

Don why Teflon?

In my opinion any polymer will do for a mounting base.

Brian Cayer

Spirit~Wind

N30U 419

Westbrook, Ct

On Aug 5, 2024, at 4:06 PM, doncr...@gmail.com wrote:

Teflon base

[Roger A Laine]

🤣

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[Cedric Guthrie]

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 5, 2024, at 16:24, Bob Neches (Me Gusta, Nonsuch 26U #233) <rtne...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[newelljc9]

I believe that the Barient 10 was the standard winch for the 26 and the 19 2 speed self tailing an optional upgrade. George fitted a 19 on Mascouche for his summer cruise. Rather than having to crank hard or go to a huge expense, one can always luff and take in the slack. That is how it was done before sailors could afford winches.

I was able to fit the Andersen on the cockpit combing without making modifications. Prior to changing rigs, it had been mounted on the binnacle with the mainsheet being fed through the aft end of the cockpit combing to blocks in the bilge and up to the winch on the front of the binnacle. It was great for single handed sailing and in a blow.  I guess George felt the arrangement was too expensive for production boats. Now I use it for the gaff sheet and needed to move the Andersen to the combing to tail the mainsheet that is mounted on a traveler ahead of the dodger. 

John Newell

Mascouche 26C 1

Toronto

[Don Crossley]

Brian, you are probably correct, maybe its not Teflon, I perhaps should have said Teflon-like material. I can’t remember now exactly what it is called. I happen to have some leftover from a previous boat, was used to mount winches to prevent over-rides. See photo.

Don

 

From: ina-nonsuch-di...@googlegroups.com <ina-nonsuch-di...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of newelljc9
Sent: August 6, 2024 11:00 AM
To: INA Nonsuch Discussion Group <ina-nonsuch-di...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Suitable replacement winch for the Barient 10ST for N26 main sheet?

 

I believe that the Barient 10 was the standard winch for the 26 and the 19 2 speed self tailing an optional upgrade. George fitted a 19 on Mascouche for his summer cruise. Rather than having to crank hard or go to a huge expense, one can always luff and take in the slack. That is how it was done before sailors could afford winches.

 

I was able to fit the Andersen on the cockpit combing without making modifications. Prior to changing rigs, it had been mounted on the binnacle with the mainsheet being fed through the aft end of the cockpit combing to blocks in the bilge and up to the winch on the front of the binnacle. It was great for single handed sailing and in a blow.  I guess George felt the arrangement was too expensive for production boats. Now I use it for the gaff sheet and needed to move the Andersen to the combing to tail the mainsheet that is mounted on a traveler ahead of the dodger. 

 

John Newell

Mascouche 26C 1

Toronto

On Monday, August 5, 2024 at 1:15:15 PM UTC-4 Chad Demarest wrote:

A bit late, but I'll second the Anderson recommendation, I've worked with them a lot and would use them in a heartbeat even over the chrome Harkens which are very nice winches.  

 

I put a Karver KCW45 on our 30C, and it's amazing.  The high gear is unlike any other winch out there and, for a mainsheet as long as ours, it's nice to be able to bring in so much sheet so quickly.  The low gear is equivalent to a size 45 winch (hence the name) but the high gear (6.1 power ratio) brings line in faster than any winch I've ever used that's not a 3-speed.  The base is a size 25, so it fits right on the combing and teak spacer with zero modifications.  A little more expensive, but for us it's the perfect mainsheet winch.

 

I'd be curious if anyone has any experience with the Ronstan winches?  The 30QT, in particular.  Seems to be based on the Anderson (ribs and gearing).  Not jewelry like the Andersons, but for the choker in particular I could see value in the QuickTrim feature...though I'm not sure I understand exactly how it works or what it does.  Anyone used one yet?

 

Chad Demarest

bluebird (30C)

Kingston, MA / Pocasset, MA

On Tuesday, July 30, 2024 at 7:37:27 PM UTC-4 Ernie Abugov P/O NS22 o/b #56 "Moustaches" wrote:

Elsie -

 

As good as Lewmar winches are, Anderson winches are like jewels. They truly are a thing of beauty. And ...... John Newell knows his onions (and winches), a lot. If your bank account can handle it, go with the Anderson.

 

Folks will stop to admire it !!!

 

Ernie A. in Toronto

On Tuesday, July 30, 2024 at 1:36:26 PM UTC-4 newelljc9 wrote:

Elsie I switched to an Anderson 28 2 speed self tailing winch for the mainsheet over a decade ago. When I changed my rig to a standing gaff I mounted it on the coaming without any difficulty. Please note that one can luff and take in slack without having to exert oneself winching in the mainsheet. Also, you might like to consider adding a snap shackle to the bitter end of the mainsheet. This allows you to have a single purchase in light airs by snapping it onto itself. The single mainsheet line is less likely to pull the wishboom in when running in light airs.

 

Cheers,

 

John Newell

Mascouche 26C #1

Toronto

 

 

 

On Monday, July 29, 2024 at 11:41:35 PM UTC-4 esan...@gmail.com wrote:

I'd like to get a 2 speed self-tailing winch to replace the 1 speed Barient 10ST on the starboard coaming of my 1982 NS 26.  That's the winch I use to haul in the main sheet.    I assume the Barient winch is original equipment on the boat. The limiting factor in finding a suitable replacement seems to be the width of the coaming, which is only about 4 inches.  That limits the size of the base of the new winch.  Does anyone have a suggestion for a replacement winch?  Thanks.

 

Elsie Sands

NS 26 Seven Stars

Maple Bay, BC

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[Brian M. Godfrey]

   Different Brian here, but it's probably UHMW (Ultra High Molecular Weight) plastic.  You can get it at McMaster-Carr (mcmaster.com).  Here's the main UHMW page:  https://www.mcmaster.com/products/plastics/plastic~/  It comes in various types and thicknesses.  Available cut sizes vary depending on type and thickness, but once you get used to their filtering you can probably get fairly close to the size you need.  Thickness will be the most important dimension because that is going to affect strength and line lead angle into your winch and because it is very difficult to change if you get it wrong.  Length and width can be adjusted with most woodworking saws - power or manual. 
   Don't know where you are, but they deliver overnight to my house in southern CA.
   I'm not saying that this will work to fit a larger winch onto a narrower coaming because I don't know and I'm sure it probably depends on other things.  (It is what I would try on my own boat.)  I'm just saying where to get the plastic like in that photo.

--Brian M. Godfrey
  br...@wildbirdshop.com

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[Randy Gadikian]

Elsie,

My vote goes to the Anderson 28 as well.  I mounted mine on an angled teak disk that was well varnished.  It looks grand and functions very well. I also removed the jamb cleat from the coming and moved the turning  block from the coming to the starboard fairlead as it is rigged on the NS30.  This setup works very well.  

Randy Gadikian,

Phoenix Rising

NS 26C # 37

Buffalo, NY

On Monday, July 29, 2024 at 11:41:35 PM UTC-4 esan...@gmail.com wrote:

[Joe Valinoti]

I would really miss that jam cleat if removed!!

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

~~~~~(\_ ~(\_ ~(\_~~~~~~~~~~

 

From: Randy Gadikian

Sent: Tuesday, August 6, 2024 5:26 PM

To: INA Nonsuch Discussion Group

Subject: Re: Suitable replacement winch for the Barient 10ST for N26 main sheet?

 

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[Mark Powers La Reina 26C Vancouver, B.C.]

Elsie,

Andersen were bought out by Ronstan but Ronstan continues to sell the Andersen winches. I installed an Andersen 28 2 speed self tailing winch on the starboard coaming to run the mainsheet. The Andersen is robust and easy to service. It will fit the coaming but the edges of the winch will over hang slightly.  I made and installed a 2” high teak plinth under the winch. I did this because at the time I installed the winch I also moved the standing block on the back of the coaming down onto the rear deck. I removed the turning block from the starboard rear corner of the coaming and attached a turning block to the starboard stern fair lead/chock, the same as Randy, so it was similar to the setup on the 30’s. The plinth under the winch was necessary to stop the mainsheet from rubbing on eyebrow. Moving the mainsheet blocks moved the mainsheet slightly further away from the person on the helm. Also when a new sailor is helming I tend to sit on the back coaming of the cockpit. Moving the sheet meant I no longer sat on the sheet.  Like Joe I would really miss the jam cleat if it was removed from the coaming. Over 95% of the time I use the jam cleat rather than the self tailing jaws to hold the sheet. 

Mark Powers

[Ernie Abugov P/O NS22 o/b #56 "Moustaches"]

In order to harden up the sail and sail closer to the wind, I would head upwind and pinch. This would allow me to pull in the mainsheet (likely even a bit too much). I'd bear off (now closer to the wind) and, if required, ease out a bit of line. Or as John Newell states, luff and take in the slack.

I think I put a winch handle in that mainsheet winch once in 11 years. 

Racing ????  Well, that's another kettle of fish.

Ernie A. in Toronto

[esan...@gmail.com]

Thank you all for these very helpful suggestions.  So just to summarize, the coaming on my NS26 does not have a "bump out" to make it wider where the winch sits.  So I'll need some sort of base or bracket under the winch if the base of it is wider than the coaming.  I've had suggestions here of using a teak disc or an ultra high molecular weight plastic.  I've been to look at Giles Hogya's NS 26 Solo Meow which is near Canoe Cove in BC  That boat has a Lewmar 40 for the sheet winch.  A metal bracket has been fashioned to stick out past the starboard coaming to accommodate the extra width of the base.  I'm not sure how to choose between a teak or plastic disc or a metal bracket.  

Also, I went to look at Anderson winches at Harbour Chandler in Nanaimo yesterday.   They can order the Andersen 2 speed self-tailing 28 ($1,180.00 Cdn), or the Andersen 34 for $70.00 more, ($1,250.00 Can).  The base diameter on those two winches is identical.  They also have a special on an Andersen 40 2-speed ST winch for $1150 Can, down from the regular price of $1575.00. So that is the least cost option.  But that is a huge winch and the low gear on it barely moves the sheet at all.  The specs for the Andersen 28 and Andersen 34 are very similar, same size base, same size drum, same height, bigger winch is marginally heavier and slightly different speed ratios and power speed ratios.  As I am a smaller female and might need a stronger winch than some of you stronger males (grin), I'm tempted to get the Andersen 34.  While the Andersen 40 is less expensive at the moment because of the sale, it might look ridiculous on Seven Stars, the base is a inch wider than the 28 and the 34 and the low gear hardly moves the sheet at all.  I understand that I can head up until the sail luffs and sheet in more easily, but I will be replacing the existing one speed Barient 10 and appreciate your advice on which way to jump.  

I also happen to have the Milwaukee right angled drill that used to raise the main on my NS 22 and Paul Miller has kindly shown me how to use it on the main sheet winch and has even made a tether for it so it can't throw itself overboard.  So that is going to be a help as well.  

Thanks again for all your help and continued advice.

Elsie Sands

NS26 Seven Stars

Maple Bay, BC

[Brian M. Godfrey]

   I wasn't actually advocating for the UHMW, I was just naming the mystery material being discussed.  I think any of the three mounting materials could be made to work just fine.  The teak will look nice if you keep it varnished, but will require occasional sanding and re-applications.  The plastic will look functional, require no maintenance and probably be the least expensive.  I made a mounting block for a halyard clutch out of black UHMW and am very happy with it.  If you use stainless steel to support a stainless steel Anderson winch it will look really good and appropriate, could be made the strongest option if well designed, will be the hardest to modify if you get something wrong in the design, and will cost the most money to fabricate.  (Notice that we "make" things from teak or plastic but we "fabricate" them from stainless steel.  Probably has something to do with the cost.)  Amateur photographers walking the docks will stop to compose artful photos of it, so keep it polished.  Etc.
   I cannot advise on the winch.  Others here are way more competent to do that.

--Brian M. Godfrey
  br...@wildbirdshop.com

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[Ernie Abugov P/O NS22 o/b #56 "Moustaches"]

Elsie -

I've attached a PDF of the bolt-hole drilling template for the Anderson 28 or 34 winch. It shows the diameter of the base as 4 15/16", Let's say the base is virtually 5" wide so, yes, there will be a slight overhang. BUT ......  by lining up the template/bolt holes, it LOOKS like the narrowest distance that you'd require to drill the FIVE holes (as pictured on the template) is ABOUT 3" inches. Yes, washers are required, room for the bolts is required and it might be a tight fit on top of your coaming but MAYBE this winch will actually fit without having to resort to a plinth ?? The whole bolt pattern seems narrower than I'd imagined

It just may work.

Ernie A. in Toronto

[BRIAN CAYER]

Responding to Ernie’s post and adding my 2 cents.

Considering the smooth lines of our boats I would prefer a transition plinth. Perhaps with a slot the width of the combing milled in the bottom and tapered to blend with the sides of the combing. That to me would look deliberate and structurally pleasing. I would use white UHMW to match the combing. 

Brian Cayer

Spirit~Wind

N30U 419

Westbrook, Ct

On Aug 9, 2024, at 5:19 PM, Ernie Abugov P/O NS22 o/b #56 "Moustaches" <ernest...@gmail.com> wrote:

Elsie -

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<winch_mounting_dimension_templates_-_manual_self_tailing_winches_size_28___34_-_paper_size_a4.pdf>

[Ernie Abugov P/O NS22 o/b #56 "Moustaches"]

I agree with Brian.

Ernie A. in Toronto

[newelljc9]

I was on board Mascouche yesterday and dismantled the Andersen 28 2 speed in minutes. There are three bolts on the head to remove, then the whole winch lifts off for maintenance. The base is secured by 5 bolts. The 5th bolt can face forward or aft. It is aligned with the self tailing device. I believe Elsie would be satisfied  if the 5th bolt faced aft for better sheet handling. I mounted my Andersen directly on the cockpit combing. The outside of the drum aligned with the outside combing so the teak trim was further out from the drum. The inside of the drum was proud of the inside of the combing by 1/4 of an inch. That has not been an issue while sailing in all conditions for several years.

NOTE: In this photo the fifth bolt faces forward placing the self tailing device facing forward. This tends to make the sheet fall on the deck rather than in the cockpit.

I mounted the winch far enough aft for the handle to clear the dodger. The combing narrows the further aft you go.

John Newell

Mascouche 26C 1

Toronto

On Monday, July 29, 2024 at 11:41:35 PM UTC-4 esan...@gmail.com wrote:

[Mark Powers La Reina 26C Vancouver, B.C.]

This is photo of an Anderson 28 on my 26.  Elsie, if you are going to use the drill to run the sheet winch either the 28 or 34 will be fine. Lifting the big drill in to place will be the biggest challenge.

Mark Powers

[Elsie Sands]

John this is so valuable.  Thank you very much for taking your winch apart and explaining so well.  Ernie was kind enough to send me a link to the mounting dimension template for the size 28 and 34 Andersen winches, so I can easily see the placement of the 5 bolts.  I had not noticed that the coaming narrows the further back you go.  I’ll have to check that out when I go to the boat later today.  I can see that your winch is mounted quite a bit further forward than my existing Barient 10 sheet winch.  I wonder what practical difference that makes when using it.  Might it make it harder for me to get to and still steer when I’m single handing?

Is there a reason you prefer to have the sheet tail onto the deck rather than in the cockpit?  I haven’t seen a winch mounted so the sheet falls outside the cockpit before.  

The mounting template is identical for the Andersen 28 and 34 winches and the size of the bases is identical.  I’m wondering which one to buy.  There’s very little difference in the price of the two sizes, not enough to make it determinative.  The only differences I can see on the specs for the two of them is that the gear ratio on the 2nd speed is 4.0:1 on the 28 and 4.7:1 on the 34.  And the power speed ratio 28.6:1 as opposed to 33.8.1 (the 28 and the 34) on the 2nd speed.  I wish I knew what practical difference that makes.  Maybe I need to give Andersen a call to find out.  S

Thanks again for the time you took to answer this John,  I appreciate. 

Elsie Sands

NS26C Seven Stars

Maple Bay, BC

On Aug 11, 2024, at 11:05 AM, newelljc9 <newe...@gmail.com> wrote:

I was on board Mascouche yesterday and dismantled the Andersen 28 2 speed in minutes. There are three bolts on the head to remove, then the whole winch lifts off for maintenance. The base is secured by 5 bolts. The 5th bolt can face forward or aft. It is aligned with the self tailing device. I believe Elsie would be satisfied  if the 5th bolt faced aft for better sheet handling. I mounted my Andersen directly on the cockpit combing. The outside of the drum aligned with the outside combing so the teak trim was further out from the drum. The inside of the drum was proud of the inside of the combing by 1/4 of an inch. That has not been an issue while sailing in all conditions for several years.

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NOTE: In this photo the fifth bolt faces forward placing the self tailing device facing forward. This tends to make the sheet fall on the deck rather than in the cockpit.

I mounted the winch far enough aft for the handle to clear the dodger. The combing narrows the further aft you go.

John Newell

Mascouche 26C 1

Toronto

On Monday, July 29, 2024 at 11:41:35 PM UTC-4 esan...@gmail.com wrote:

I'd like to get a 2 speed self-tailing winch to replace the 1 speed Barient 10ST on the starboard coaming of my 1982 NS 26.  That's the winch I use to haul in the main sheet.    I assume the Barient winch is original equipment on the boat. The limiting factor in finding a suitable replacement seems to be the width of the coaming, which is only about 4 inches.  That limits the size of the base of the new winch.  Does anyone have a suggestion for a replacement winch?  Thanks.

Elsie Sands

NS 26 Seven Stars

Maple Bay, BC

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[Elsie Sands]

Thanks very much for this Mark.  Paul Miller has shown me how he leaves his Milwaukee drill in place in the winch, ready for use when needed.  He has made a tether and given it to me so the drill can’t throw itself off the boat when it gets fed up with my ineptitude.  ;-)

Elsie Sands

NS26 Seven Stars

Maple Bay, BC

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[Bob Neches (Me Gusta, Nonsuch 26U #233)]

Elsie,

John Newell's modified his boat so that it no longer users the wishbone boom but instead has a much shortened conventional boom sheeted to a traveller in front of his dodger.  I would not use where his winch is mounted as guidance for where you should put yours.

My suggestion would be to place your winch for ease of access for how you typically use your boat.  If you singlehand, you might want it further back closer to the helm for easy reach.  If you typically have someone with you with one steering and the other operating the mainsheet, then you might want it a bit more forward so that the two people aren't in each other's way.

I suspect tailing onto the deck vs. into the cockpit is a taste issue, but I'll be curious what John's answer is.   My guess is that tailing on the deck keeps the spaghetti out of the way but increases the risk of tangles and line trailing overboard.  Tailing into the cockpit, conversely,  makes it easier to manage the line but puts it more in the way until you do.

I hope you'll post what Andersen / Ronstan say about the tradeoffs between the two winches.  I'm curious.

-- Bob

   Me Gusta

   Nonsuch e26U #233

[Ernie Abugov P/O NS22 o/b #56 "Moustaches"]

Elsie - 

The reality is that you will be having hands off the wheel while using the winch. I imagine that the first use of the DRILL will be raising the sail with the halyard (with a different winch). You'll, then. have to move the drill to the Anderson. Do you use an autopilot ??  I ask because you must leave the wheel to raise the sail. Are you motoring along when you raise the sail ?? 

OK - let's (sort of) go back. One way or t'other, let's say that the sail is raised. So you hand pull the MAINSHEET (fast and easy, hand over hand) until it starts to get tough. You insert the drill and va-ROOM. The mainsheet tightens right up. Back to the wheel you go. 

Presently, you still cannot steer at the same time that you are using the existing mainsheet winch, right ?? Though I'm not REALLY sure why, if it's vital to keep the winch close to the wheel, well, so be it. Otherwise, mount it further forward making CERTAIN that the handle will not be encumbered by the dodger frame or anything else AND the coaming will be a titch wider. Furthermore, mount it so the self-tailer points directly into the cockpit (same direction as in Mark Powers' photo). The sheet will will end up in the cockpit. Furthermore (once again), the max distance between the two furthest bolt holes will be a little less than if you mount it with the self tailer facing front or back. Maybe a 10% - 15% narrower BOLT footprint (not winch footprint).

John Newell is a VERY experienced sailor who does race his boat. He must have many good reasons for the sheet to tail on the deck. As a purely recreational sailor, I would be scared to death of a good length of sheet falling on to the deck and then, perish the thought, tumbling into the drink and wrapping itself around the prop. Once was enough for me and it was a reefing line, not the mainsheet. 

Last point - I'd go with the 28 winch. Basically, it means that on the 34, one crank will pull in more line. IF the winches are truly the same physical size, I kinda think that the smaller winch will be easier to grind (but you'll get a bit less line pulled in per crank). Or, I'm wrong (it does happen) and, indeed, with NO MORE EFFORT, you be able to crank a little MORE line in with the 34. And, you bet, I'd call Anderson Tech support and ask them.

As I write this, I notice a plethora of other responses and can't wait to read them !!

Have fun !!

Ernie A. in gusty Toronto.

[Elsie Sands]

Hi again Ernie, 

Here’s the thing … Seven has an electric winch for the halyard.  No need to use the Milwaukee drill there.  She has an auto helm and I use it when raising the sail.  I’ve never had to raise the sail single handing in strong winds.  I hope not to do that.  I try to pick days with light to moderate wind to go out and raise the sail. Using the sheet winch is another story.  Sometimes I set off in the gentlest, loveliest wind and later in the day encounter some big strong gusts, especially in Stuart Channel and Maple Bay.  Scares me a bit if I’m running downwind when it happens. Feels like all hell’s breaking loose.   I know to head up into the wind to de-power / luff the sail to keep from getting knocked over by the gusts.  But I need my hands on the wheel to head up in strong winds. Autohelm won’t do it for me in that situation.   If I’m running downwind I probably have the boom quite a way out. So far I’ve kept the boom in closer to the rear quarter because I didn’t have confidence I could get it back in with the existing sheet winch set up.  Ideally I’d like to be able to head up and bring the boom in when there’s a strong gust.  So it should happen a bit quickly.  The existing sheet winch is too hard for me to turn with one hand on the winch handle.  Replacing it with a more powerful 2 speed winch should help.  Using the Milwaukee drill should help too, especially if I can leave the drill in the sheet winch like Paul Miller does (and have it tethered to the boat so it can’t leave the boat).  But frankly, single handing downwind when it’s gusty will take some experience and practice, not to mention some more mechanical advantage than I have right now. It’ll be a bit of a ballet act to head the boat up when the gust comes, then sheet in and then let the sheet out again when the gust subsides, just to do it all over again when the next gust comes.  

FWIW, I have already learned so much since getting the 26.  One tough lesson is that if you leave on a sail tie by accident, and can’t see the sail that well because now you have a boat with a dodger, which is new to me, the sail can get torn when you try to raise the sail.  The upside is that the lovely peeps at the rendezvous did a demo for me of removing the torn sail from a NS26 (mine) and I got to visit the lovely sail loft at North Sails in Sidney when I took the sail in for a repair.  Then I got to see / help with bending a sail onto a NS26 when Paul Miller kindly drove up from Cowichan Bay to help me with that after the sail came back from the sail loft.  

What an amazing group of owners we have.  Thank you all for all the advice and help you’ve offered me since I began this sailing journey.

Elsie Sands

NS 26 Seven Stars

Maple Bay, BC

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[Ernie Abugov P/O NS22 o/b #56 "Moustaches"]

Elsie, it's an absolute pleasure. You're fortunate to be to sail most of the year (thus leaving the boat in the water, full-time) AND, especially for having a few REAL sailing, boating and Nonsuch gurus not far away.

A question/bit of musing/statement:  Judging by what you say about say about running downwind, I'll assume that the wind is never blowing in the identical direction that the boat is moving i.e. that the wind is actually blowing you forward but you are on a VERY broad reach, still slightly from the side of the boat. And, the sail is way out on the OTHER side of the boat that the wind is coming from. I say this because if the wind is DEAD behind you, you run a risk of an accidental gybe. 

You seem genuinely spooked by certain conditions raised by gusty winds, etc. For the next little while, put the first reef into your sail, while still at the dock, and leave it there. Even if it means "going too slow" in light or moderate winds - big deal. What this may do is "unspook" you when a gust arrives. You'll notice that when the gust blows, you'll hardly feel any difference and, hopefully, feel WAY more comfy. Next, when you are running safely downwind (like the wind is coming over the starboard or port stern quarter) WITH that reef in your sail, let that big windbag OUT so that the sail is truly ahead of the mast (not perpendicular to it - that's the constraint of a sailboat with with a stayed mast - ours are unstayed like a windsurfer). The boat will go faster, using less wind as plenty of it is spilled out of the sail. All will be calm. Onlookers may gasp but that's a very important trick that Nonsuches are capable of.

I think that, after sailing around for a week or two with a full-time reef in the sail, you may be surprised, pleasantly, I hope. 

Next: IF you have a sail cover in which the sail drops into and then you zip it up, don't use sail ties. No need for them.

I am attaching a cheesy little drawing that I made up. All the best.

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Elsie Sands]

Ernie,    I do not have a sail cover that the sail can drop into.  Mine has no zipper along the top and it opens from the bottom.  It needs to be removed completely and stowed somewhere every time I sail.  So I do need sail ties.  I will get a new sail cover that the sail can drop into when it bubbles to the top of the priority list.  I suppose spooked is a fair description - that will change as I get more experience with this boat.   I like your cheesy drawing.  Thanks again,   Elsie in Maple Bay, BC

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[esan...@gmail.com]

Thanks for your advice all.  You've really helped me with this decision.  I've decided on the Anderson 28 2 speed ST winch.  I ordered it for the best price I could fine, $1050.00 Can plus tax.  Really looking forward to its arrival.  Thanks again.

Elsie Sands

Nonsuch 26 Seven Stars

Maple Bay, BC

[Mark Powers La Reina 26C Vancouver, B.C.]

Elsie, I have a bottom opening sail cover that must be completely removed. I never use sail ties.

Mark Powers

[Ernie Abugov P/O NS22 o/b #56 "Moustaches"]

Well, that's a revelation, Elsie, no ??. In all the years (and boats), it had never occurred to me that ... hey, yes ..... why not ??  Especially on a Nonsuch where the sail sits trapped in its cradle lines .... why bother with sail ties ?? Unnecessary.

So the sail is lying there. You just lay the cover on it and do it up !!  IF, after that, you know it's gonna blow or you'll be some time away from the boat, wrap one sail tie around the bagged sail just to add extra support.

Mark is absolutely correct. He's used to conditions where you are and he is very experienced. This feels a bit like like a failure to see the forest for the trees.

Amazing what you learn.

Ernie A. in Toronto