I finally finished my conversion to electric

[Bob Neches (Me Gusta, Nonsuch 26U #233)]

I just finished switching my 26U from a Westerbeke 18 to an ElectricYacht QT 10.0 Sport electric propulsion system. 

This was supposed to be about a week effort.  In terms of time on task, it was sorta close to that.  The yard put in about 14 hours and I did about another 48 hours.  Unfortunately, a combination of health, weather, family, and other issues ended up spreading those 62 hours over four months.  Which is way too long to not be sailing.

If anyone's interested, here's a link to a write-up and picture portfolio on the experience:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1kPkCE0mFe77XvAYH5St_g8RQDLtBhZrT?usp=sharing

Last time I posted about this, someone asked for pictures.  If you follow the link above, there are 47 of 'em for your entertainment.  Small versions in the text document, full size in a folder of pictures.

-- Bob

   Me Gusta

   Nonsuch 26U(e) #233

[Mike]

Congratulations Bob! Always good to see another boat added to the Nonsuch Electric fleet. 

Mike

BIANKA

1986 30U

Long Island

biankablog.blogspot.com 

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[Jim Johnston, 1985 NS30U "Minou", Ottawa]

Yes congratulations are in order. Well done.

[Tim in STL, NS26 White O'morn]

Congrats, we love the QT 10.0 in our NS26U.  You were wise to have the yard do some of the work.  For us it took two men a full day to remove everything and another day to clean and prep before the install.  Here is a shot of our fuel tank after we removed it, it was a very noisy job, probably the hardest part.

Tim in STL
White O’morn NS26U #216
Harbor Point Yacht Club
West Alton, MO

[Mike]

Tim

Curious to know why you found it necessary to remove the fuel tank? Was it leaking? I kept mine in the boat.  I steamed clean it and plan on converting it into a non potable water tank for fresh water wash downs collecting water off of my solar panels mostly.

Mike

BIANKA

1986 30U

Long Island

biankablog.blogspot.com 

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[Tim in STL, NS26 White O'morn]

When we bought White O'morn she did not have a holding tank. The tank that would normally be the holding tank was used as an additional fresh water tank, we converted that tank to use for fresh water flushing of the head.  We keep White O'morn at a dock in a harbor that provides free pump out service and we have dockside fresh water and electricity, we do not need a 26 gallon holding tank.  We thought about converting the fuel tank to a holding tank, but since it was 35 years old I felt it was safer to replace it with a new molded poly holding tank.  So now we have a new holding tank, fresh water flushing, and dockside washdown -- plus a little bit more room for fenders, lines, and tools.  Different ships, different long splices.

Tim in STL

White O’morn NS26U #216
Harbor Point Yacht Club
West Alton, MO

[Bob Neches (Me Gusta, Nonsuch 26U #233)]

Sounds like a very nice set-up all around, Tim, both the boat and your marina.  I installed fresh water flush on my previous Nonsuch and am planning to do the same in the near future on this one.  Once you've experienced it, anything less is just not the same.

Two person-days for dismantling and clean-up sounds about right, although in my case that time was split between the yard and me.

One of the surprises for me (although in hindsight, not surprising) was how many electrical connections there were.  I spent a big chunk of time disconnecting and removing no-longer needed wires.  I don't know if this was the case in general, but I was also surprised to discover that about half my 12V system grounded back to the 12V batteries, but the other half had been grounded back to the motor.  It took a while to figure that out and get them back on-line.

-- Bob

   Me Gusta

   Nonsuch 26U #233

[Tim in STL, NS26 White O'morn]

We only had a few going to the batteries but, how about this for a ground buss, a 1/4-20 bolt.  Changing that system lead me down a very long convoluted rabbit hole.

Tim in STL
White O’morn NS26U #216
Harbor Point Yacht Club
West Alton, MO

[Mark Powers La Reina 26C Vancouver, B.C.]

A bus bar! Must have been an upgrade.

The beer can in the fuel tank may explain some of the issues you were having with the old diesel engine. 

A shout out to all of you that have gone down the electric pathway. Now we need a directory page listing the electric Nonsuch fleet with a summary of the systems and performance.

Mark Powers

[Don Crossley]

Congrats on completion of the electric conversion, looks great! 👍 

I'm interested to get a report on the performance once you've had a few weeks of testing. My cursory reading about electric sailboats is that optimal speed vs battery life is +/-4.5 knots. Beyond that, batteries are drawn down much quicker. Slower speeds allow for longer battery life, but can become painfully slow.

I have some experience on this topic as I have a electric dinghy outboard. Consumption meter says at 4.5 kts I have just 80 minutes of battery life. But if I reduce speed to 3.5 kts, battery life increases to 5 hours. But I've never ran it down to check accuracy of the metre.

So, please let us know your actual battery vs speed results.

]

Thanks

Don

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[Bob Neches (Me Gusta, Nonsuch 26U #233)]

Don,

I'll have to do an update when I've had more time for testing. 

The prop information I gave ElectricYacht, although based on best information I had, turned out to be wrong enough that I have to change the gearing.  I'm currently  getting about 75% of the full potential of the motor.  I'm impressed to note that this is still enough to get the boat to 6.1 kts in flat water.  The factory's been very helpful with this.  I have the replacement gear already in hand, received 48 hours after discussing it with them.  Just have to do the work to install it.

Meanwhile, here's a table of what they promise for battery life.

This is from advertising material published by ElectricYacht for the 48V 200 Amp configuration I went with.   It does seem to suggest that the balance between speed and range is at about 3 kts, or half speed.

Note that Flooded or AGM batteries appear to provide slightly better range/operating time than LiFePo4 at lower speeds, while the reverse is true at higher.  However, this is comparing them all at discharge to 80% of capacity.  Beyond that point, you’re not going to get much more from a Flooded or AGM battery before voltage drops below usability, and you’re risking reducing the batteries' lifetime. LiFePo4 batteries don’t have that problem.  They provide near-full power to 100% discharge, with no long-term consequences.  This implies effective LifePo4 ranges / operating times (and range) might actually be as much as 25% greater than shown here.

As the saying goes, "In theory, theory and practice are the same.  In practice, they're not."   I'm looking forward to getting enough use to compare theory to practice.

However, what it basically comes down to is that no one switches to electric for the range.  It only makes sense to switch if the range is acceptable for the uses and conditions you expect and the total amp hours of battery capacity you're willing to pay for.

-- Bob

   Me Gusta

   Nonsuch 26U #233

[Tim in STL, NS26 White O'morn]

Bob, what did you do about weight distribution?  We went with AGM batteries, eight six volts that weigh almost as much as the old diesel.  We pushed the batteries as far back as practical and the boat still sits a little bit low by the bow.  We had to take the CQR off of the bow roller to get her to sit level.

With the LifePo4 weighing half of the AGM weight i would think that correcting the weight distribution would be a problem.

Tim in STL

White O’morn NS26U #216
Harbor Point Yacht Club
West Alton, MO

[Bob Neches (Me Gusta, Nonsuch 26U #233)]

Tim,

I threw money at the situation and installed eight 12V 100 Amp LiFeP04 batteries to get a 48V 200 Amp system.  The combined weight of the batteries was 248 lbs, plus the 75 lb electric motor, yields 323 lbs compared to the 345 lb engine.   I also have the advantage of a lighter weight carbon fiber mast.

I put everything as far back as I could.  All this doesn't quite make up for it all since I also lost the weight of the diesel fuel tank, muffler, and other fittings.

A level placed on my cockpit seats suggests that they're approximately level fore and aft, but I haven't really got a good look at the waterline post installation to verify.

In contrast, after the diesel and accoutrements were out  but before the batteries and motor went in, the boat was several inches bow-heavy.

-- Bob

   Me Gusta

   Nonsuch 26U #233

[Mike BIANKA]

Hmmmm I just pulled 400+ pounds of AGM batteries out of BIANKA. Planning on replacing then with a 100 pound Lithium. I still have the 30 gallon fuel tank that I plan to turn into a non potable wash down tank. Might have to think about adding another  water tank down below or store a heavy storm anchor to even things out.

Mike

BIANKA

1986 30U

Long Island

[Bob Neches (Me Gusta, Nonsuch 26U #233)]

Ironically, according to https://goodcalculators.com/money-weight-calculator/, the amount I spent on my conversion if piled up in $1 USD coins would work out to a tad over 354 lbs.   In other words, the money I put in is about equal to the weight I took out. 

This illustrates what they say about every boat design question being a tradeoff.

If I'd removed the diesel and placed the money strategically throughout the boat, I could have achieved perfect balance. 

But then, I wouldn't have an engine.

Since I spent the money on the conversion instead of using it as ballast, now I have a balance problem instead.

The obvious answer is... I need to put more money into the boat.

Right?

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

Bob -

There is a difference between placing money strategically and throwing money at something, right ??

Ernie A. in Toronto (where our money weighs more and is worth much less)

[Mike BIANKA]

Bob

Bags of U.S. quarters might work and would come in handy for laundry machines in marinas. Though gold bars might work too and would be more in line with boat owning. :)   I'll have to see how things play out after I install the new lithium battery. The main reason I want to install the single 48 volt Lithium battery is so I can access it's terminals from inside the cabin as climbing down into the cockpit locker is getting harder as I get older. In addition the single battery eliminates any inter connections between 12 volt batteries.  At least that's the plan. 

[Paul Miller]

Am I the only one thinking about the old saying about a boat being a hole in the water that you pour money into?

At least the coins would pour nicely. 😉😂🤣

Paul M

NS30U #211, Sandpiper 

Cowichan Bay, B.C.

[Mark Powers La Reina 26C Vancouver, B.C.]

Gold could prove to be an interesting option. The boat might actually appreciate in value with gold ballast.

Mike, what battery are you planning on installing? 

This one looks interesting 

 https://www.epochbatteries.com/products/lithium-trolling-motor-battery-48v-100ah

They are on sale at the moment, $300 off, and they have a 10% off offer on the first purchase.

Here is a link to a Panbo article about the 12v version 

https://panbo.com/epoch-batteries-elegant-drop-in-lifepo4/

Mark Powers

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

I had it told to me as a "fibreglass hole in the water". If we keep on about heavy gold ballast, the boat will sink and you'll be left with ...... just a hole in the water.

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Mike BIANKA]

Mark

I'm currently looking at these Dakota batteries:

https://dakotalithium.com/48-volt-lithium-batteries/

Though these Chin batterries are tempting especially from the price point of view 

https://amzn.to/3KNvYNT

A thousand bucks cheaper along with have bluetooth is certainly tempting. But, I'm still leaning toward the Dakotas since they are U.S. based and may have better customer service and a better warranty.

Mike

BIANKA

1986 30U

Long Island

[Bob Neches (Me Gusta, Nonsuch 26U #233)]

I thought about a single battery.  I definitely would've gone that route for all the reasons Mike on Bianka mentions. 

The only reason I didn't was the self-imposed constraint of wanting to do work myself while needing to minimize weight that I handled.   Simpler is better, and the batteries that Mark pointed out do look impressive.

The one thing (I think) that might need to be checked is to make sure that the power management systems built into whatever batteries are selected and the external charging system both play nicely with each other. 

One of the reasons I stuck with the charger (Delta-Q) and batteries (Battleborn) recommended by ElectricYacht was lack of stomach on my part for delving into those questions.

[Jim Johnston]

Mike

if you decide to also consider Torqeedo batteries they pack a lot of energy for their weight. However, having purchased 2x24 V I would recommend against them because you are also purchasing a proprietary NMEA2000 communication protocol using a CAN-BUS port but unless you have a Torqeedo gateway (not yet on the market) you can't make use of this 'feature'. In hindsight I should have given serious thought to the Battleborn. They appear to be more flexible.

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[Jim Johnston]

I meant Dakotas!

[Mark Powers La Reina 26C Vancouver, B.C.]

Here is a link to a Will Prowse review of a 12 volt Chin battery.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBonGQe363g

The Dakota and Epoch both have an 11 year warranty but having a local company may make warranty issues easier to deal with. The Epoch will allow charging down to -20 while the Dakota says don't charge below 32 degrees.

I was not able to find a review of the bigger Dakota batteries but I did find this on a 23 ah Dakota

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WF9NlDW_r4

I don't know enough about them to express an opinion.

Mark Powers

[Mike BIANKA]

Mark

The Epoch battery also looks interesting. I like the bluetooth availability and the case mounting tabs are handy. Though do not really need the heating function for charging since I won't be sailing in winter. I'll be disconnecting the battery when I pull the boat for the winter.

The Dakota also comes with a battery charger. Its small amp wise but, I planned to have my current 48 volt Zivan NG-1  chargers converted to a Lithium profile. But, having a backup is always a good idea and FREE is good.

I still have a few months before I need to decide and who knows what might come on the market by then.

Mike

BIANKA

1986 30 U

Long Island

[Mike Jennings]

I am at the shed now. No problem.

Sent by Mike Jennings.

On Mar 1, 2023, at 12:58 PM, 'Mike BIANKA' via INA Nonsuch Discussion Group <INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Mark

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