Raising the sail on a Nonsuch 36

[Bob Gehrman]

Hi All -

I raised the sail for the first time on my NS36 this weekend and went for a fantastic sail in 18-22kn winds. The boat handles like a champ! The only trouble I had was getting that beast of a sail raised. 

I’ve added a Barient 27 2-speed self-tailing winch on the cabin top specifically for the task, and I have a WinchRite to do the work. Before leaving the dock I sprayed all the sail track slides with McLube. 

Despite all that, raising the sail was insanely difficult. The WinchRite (which I use on my NS30 every time) could do nothing, and I may have damaged it trying. We were able to get the sail up all the way with someone at the mast pulling down the halyard and another person cranking the winch. The low gear on the winch can definitely pull up the sail, but very slowly.

I thought to try spraying the whole track with McLube the next day, so I went up the mast and super-coated the whole track. Re-coated the slides again and tried it out again. Similarly difficult - the WinchRite skips now (think it’s damaged) and is useless, so I hand- cranked it up. My biceps got a hell of a workout.

One question I have is regarding the track slides. These ones are pressed metal instead of cast like on my NS30. I’m wondering if these slides are just less effective on this track? Also, curious to know what everyone else with a 33 or 36 is using. I’m not wild about using the electric main sheet winch because of the whole fairlead thing, and where does one cleat it once it’s raised?

Thanks for any advice -

Also, for your entertainment:

https://vimeo.com/981064016

Bob Gehrman

NS36 #52 “Fortunate”

Greenwich Bay, Rhode Island

[Bob Gehrman]

PS- I’m hoping to NOT have to get a Tides sail track …

[BRIAN CAYER]

Bob,

Why not install a tides strong track over that original SS track.?

Brian

Spirit~wind

On Jul 9, 2024, at 8:14 PM, Bob Gehrman <b...@gehrman.net> wrote:

Hi All -

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[Ward Woodruff]

Bob, 

It sounds like you may have stainless slides on a stainless track.  I understand that combination is not slippery. Bronze slides offer some lubricity.  I understand bronze slides are not cheap. 

My 33 came with a tides track and an electric (original) halyard winch.  The winch raised the sail with effort. Sometimes the breaker would trip. 

The replacement carbon fiber mast has a Harken track.  The head of the sail has two ball bearing cars and the full top batten has a ball bearing car. The rest of the slides are not ball bearing.   The electric winch raises the sail adequately. 

We have in the past, on occasion and with two people, raised the sail by hand. The person at the mast pulls the halyard out to the side and the person at the winch takes up the slack. Pull then remove the slack and repeat.  That worked pretty well and easily.  

The 36 sail is bigger. More effort required.

 

Ward Woodruff

413-847-0620 cell

On Jul 9, 2024, at 8:21 PM, Bob Gehrman <b...@gehrman.net> wrote:



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[Ken Dakin]

Consider the possibility of an e-wincher which I have used for three years on my 33 with a Tides strong track. I got the e-wincher when my halyard capstan motor died and proved to be too old to repair. I use the e-wincher in my self tailing Barient 22 halyard winch. When reefing, I also use it to raise the wishbone clew end to the leech reef cringle in the same winch size on the topping lift. Works great and the torque can be set to a given winch. Due to the age of the Barient winches, the e-winch manufacturer guided me to the matching Anderson winch size for torque setting.

Ken Dakin

NS 33 #7

Sashay

Kingston ON

Sent from my iPad

On Jul 9, 2024, at 8:25 PM, BRIAN CAYER <b.k....@sbcglobal.net> wrote:



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[Leon King]

I use a Milwaukee 28 volt right angle drill in the Barient 27 winch, and have the cast bronze slides - the sail goes up without effort.  I’ve had no reason to consider the tides track.

Leon

NS 36, #16

Cloud Nine

Lewisporte NL

[Mark Powers La Reina 26C Vancouver, B.C.]

Bob,

I agree that cast slides would likely work better but I have not found any for you style of track. The cast slides I can find go inside the track(male slides). 

If you go to Tides Marine site and search for FAQ regarding the strong track you find it is recommended for 450 to 700 square feet. The sail for a 36 with a big roach would push the recommended limits. I understand your reluctance to go down that route.

I suggest you try lubing the slides with liquid dish soap just before leaving the dock. It does not last long but it does help and it keeps the track and slides clean. I would the suggest a large 90 degree angle cordless drill like a Milwaukee or Makita. The Winchrite does not have enough power. Paul Miller modified his Milwaukee so he can run it in reverse to take advantage of the two speed winch.

Mark Powers

[Brian Godfrey]

   I don't know enough to advise, but I can reply to your question about how others raise the sail.
   I have Tides track on the mast, a Lewmar 44 electric halyard winch, and a way-too-old-and-stiff halyard. The winch has no trouble raising the sail until the last couple of feet when you can hear it slow down just a little bit.

Brian Godfrey
Vela, NS33 #77, San Diego

-- Brian Godfrey

[Ron Schryver]

Hi Bob, in 2012 we purchased a Doyle sail for our NS30 through "Botts". The sail was great except that it had stainless steel slides and was a bear to hoist. I cut the old bronze slides off the old sail and Botts hand sewed them on the new sail while sitting on the deck.....impressed the hell out of me!

My point is, the old bronze slides, with a bit of liquid soap, worked a whole lot better.

Ron

Ron & Diane Schryver

"Alpha Waves" '87 NS30U #393

Georgian Bay Midland

 

[Mark Powers La Reina 26C Vancouver, B.C.]

Bob,

A couple of points. At the risk of telling you things you probably already know. Make sure the choker is well slackened, raise the boom with the topping lift as high as you can get it before hoisting the sail, make sure the reef lines are not dragging on anything and check all the blocks to make sure they run freely. 

Mark Powers

[Bob Gehrman]

Thanks Folks -

I’m going to try the cast bronze sliders next I think. I’m not wild about the metal-on-metal connection between the sail and the sail sliders anyways. I’d rather use a fabric connection between them. I just had one of those get chewed up on my NS30 top cringle. 

I appreciate all the suggestions and thoughts -

Bob Gehrman

NS36 #52 “Fortunate”

Greenwich Bay, Rhode Island

Has anyone purchased the cast bronze ones from www.Bronzeblocks.com ? JM Reineck & Son. They look similar.

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[Brian Godfrey]

   It occurred to me that your boat had that backwards block on it.  Makes you wonder what other surprises might be in store.  YWHave you tried raising just the halyard without the sail?  (Obviously with a line attached so you can pull it back down.)  I mean, just to be sure...

Brian Godfrey

-- Brian Godfrey

[Bob Neches (Me Gusta, Nonsuch 26U #233)]

Bob,

The picture of the one sail slide gives the impression that it's old and worn.  I can't tell what material it is, but it looks kinda chewed up.   If so, the slides may also be worn enough to be inclined and able to twist sideways.  From the look of the plastic guard and shackle securing the sail to the slide, there'd be a lot of force encouraging the slides to twist as boltrope turns sideways when the sail is stacked.  That could produce a lot of binding and, if that's the case, it's a problem no amount of McLube will overcome.

You may also want to check whether the sheave at the top of the mast, and all the turning blocks on the way from the mast back to the cockpit, are turning smoothly. 

Mike Quill may still carry 7/8th inch bronze slides.   They cost an arm and a leg (plus your firstborn child), but may still be cheaper than Antal HS22.40 sliders which are another alternative. 

-- Bob
   Me Gusta
   Nonsuch e26U #233
   Looking forward to seeing folks in Toronto:
        https://nonsuch.org/2024-INA-International-Rendezvous-Status

[Michael Howard]

Harken 52 self tailing power winch. 

Michael Howard
Intuition XI, NS36
011-501-607-1151, Belize
001-613-340-8355, Canada

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[Daniel Weinstein]

Bob, it looks like most of the "tips" have been covered, though I don't recommend dish soap, as it can make the deck slippery and residue will collect dirt.  I've stuck with McLube SailKote.  On my 30c I made a number of the typical "enhancements" last year, and was finally able to raise the main with a reasonable effort, though the last five feet were still pretty tough.  When I took the mast down last fall I found that the turning sheave at the masthead was a "wire-to-rope" style (lots of friction when the rope is trying to wedge into that wire channel), and the bushing was worn and dirty, and was rubbing on the side of the fitting.  I had the sheave machined to be a "rope only" style (there was plenty of metal on the sheave for this).  For the bushing, I was lucky that flipping it around and cleaning it up was sufficient (I didn't have to have another one pressed in).  This made a huge difference, especially for those last few feet I was still struggling with.  

There's no getting around the fact that you are hauling up a really heavy sail with a lot of slides though.   Michael Howard (Intuition XI, NS36) doesn't say whether he has a Tides; If you can find out that might inform you some more.

Dan Weinstein
Look Farther, 30C #205
East Greenwich RI

[Joe Valinoti]

I’m a big fan of pouring a small amount of diluted dish detergent down the track and never experienced any thing but good from it.

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

~~~~~(\_ ~(\_ ~(\_~~~~~~~~~~

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[Michael Howard]

My sail track appears to be the same as Bob’s although my sliders appear to be in better condition. Generous amounts of McLube sailKote all the way up. The Harken power winch makes that a touch of a button job. Takes me or my wife effortlessly up the mast. The guys from Mack Sails also found replacing the topping lift and hangers with dyneema a stress free afternoon job with the winch. 

When lowering your sail it should drop like a rock. If it does there probably isn’t anything wrong with the track or sliders. It’s just a big sail. I’ve raised mine once manually and thought I might need a medic by the time I got it up.

The boat used to have a 40 something power winch. The previous owner swapped it out for the 52. I suspect that says something about handling 753 square feet of cruising weight sail.

Cheers

Michael Howard
mlhowa...@gmail.com
011-501-607-1151, Belize
001-613-340-8355, Canada

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[(null) (null)]

Bob,

I assume that you inspected the halyard block at the bottom of the mast. Sometimes they can be shot and it isn’t really visible in a casual inspection.

Don’t ask me how I know.

Dave King

N22 Suey

Alameda CA

On Jul 9, 2024, at 7:54 PM, Ron Schryver <ron.sc...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Bob, in 2012 we purchased a Doyle sail for our NS30 through "Botts". The sail was great except that it had stainless steel slides and was a bear to hoist. I cut the old bronze slides off the old sail and Botts hand sewed them on the new sail while sitting on the deck.....impressed the hell out of me!

My point is, the old bronze slides, with a bit of liquid soap, worked a whole lot better.

Ron

Ron & Diane Schryver

"Alpha Waves" '87 NS30U #393

Georgian Bay Midland

 

On Tue, Jul 9, 2024 at 8:14 PM Bob Gehrman <b...@gehrman.net> wrote:

Hi All -

I raised the sail for the first time on my NS36 this weekend and went for a fantastic sail in 18-22kn winds. The boat handles like a champ! The only trouble I had was getting that beast of a sail raised. 

I’ve added a Barient 27 2-speed self-tailing winch on the cabin top specifically for the task, and I have a WinchRite to do the work. Before leaving the dock I sprayed all the sail track slides with McLube. 

Despite all that, raising the sail was insanely difficult. The WinchRite (which I use on my NS30 every time) could do nothing, and I may have damaged it trying. We were able to get the sail up all the way with someone at the mast pulling down the halyard and another person cranking the winch. The low gear on the winch can definitely pull up the sail, but very slowly.

I thought to try spraying the whole track with McLube the next day, so I went up the mast and super-coated the whole track. Re-coated the slides again and tried it out again. Similarly difficult - the WinchRite skips now (think it’s damaged) and is useless, so I hand- cranked it up. My biceps got a hell of a workout.

One question I have is regarding the track slides. These ones are pressed metal instead of cast like on my NS30. I’m wondering if these slides are just less effective on this track? Also, curious to know what everyone else with a 33 or 36 is using. I’m not wild about using the electric main sheet winch because of the whole fairlead thing, and where does one cleat it once it’s raised?

Thanks for any advice -

Also, for your entertainment:

https://vimeo.com/981064016

Bob Gehrman

NS36 #52 “Fortunate”

Greenwich Bay, Rhode Island

<IMG_8242.jpeg>

<IMG_8113.jpeg>

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[Bob Gehrman]

Thanks Dave - That's a great point. I lubed the sheeve at the top of the mast but I'll make sure to check that one too.

- Bob

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[Brian @ SV Serenity]

Bob,

I have the same kind of track on both of my masts, but I have pretty little bronze cars.  For some reason I don't necessarily get, the main often struggles going up (with the whole two-person job that's described below), and the last several feet never seem to go easily.  I've got an electric winch, but normally only use it for the first half if I don't have two people on board.  In reverse, the sail rarely wants to come down by itself.  I have done the dish soap thing once or twice, but don't recall it made a lot of difference.

Here's the kicker:  Mizzen sail goes up like a dream and slides back down the same way.  Go figure.

Brian

SV Serenity

Nonsuch Nereus #003

Pax River, MD