Advice for leaking deck joint bolts / toe rail cap screws - Nonsuch 30

[Amy S]

My partner and I acquired a 1979 Nonsuch 30 a few weeks ago. The boat was basically ownerless for a few years and spent part of that time out of the water and part of it in the water (in this case, fresh water). The boat is in good general condition, but it has some interior leaks. Please forgive me if I get the technical terms wrong in the upcoming description of the issue. During a recent rain storm, we were able to observe that several of the bolts coming through the deck joint (the bolts with nuts on them) were dripping water. 

Are there other Nonsuch 30 owners on the forum who have experienced and tackled a similar issue? Our thought was that we would start by tightening the nuts on the bolts to see if that might stop the leak. If that doesn't work, presumably we will need to remove the teak toe rail cap and rebed the bolts? Or perhaps the issue is with whatever holds the toe rail cap on? We'd like to take care of the problem in a way that will fix it for the long-term, if possible. We'd be very grateful for any direction from other owners.

Thanks in advance!

Amy

[Joe Valinoti]

I strongly suggest you not over tighten the nuts.  I had found all of mine loose and snugged them down with the result that small stress cracks appeared on deck.  Too late I read on the listserve that one should not tighten them down.  Removing and re-bedding may be the only option.

Joe Valinoti
S/V IL Gatto NS30U #221 (1984)
Sea Harbour Yacht Club
Oriental, NC

 

  

 

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[Amy S]

Thanks very much for the tip, Joe. Sounds like we need to skip Plan A and go straight to Plan B.

I wonder if there's anyone out there who has experience removing the toe rail? Any insights would be much appreciated.

- Amy

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[rob dwelley Dwelley]

It has been a while since I pulled a toerail on a sailboat.  My first move would be to find a local boat carpenter and hire him as your coach.  If you plan on doing it yourself, a good coach will save you a lot of time and money.  Amateur attempts at things like this most often spend a lot of time going down the wrong road where mistakes are made and a lot of energy is spent doing things the hard way.  It is ALL about experience. Good Luck

Rob 

Maine

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[Joe Valinoti]

Upon re-reading my email, I think that it should have been clearer.  Remove and re-bed the bolts, not the toe rail.

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[Ron Singerman]

Butyl Tape

>>ron<<
S/V Serenity II
NSU 30 479
Gulfport, FL

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[Joe Valinoti]

As mentioned once before, I used Butyl tape under my handrails and it was the worst thing I ever did.

[Paul Robson]

Amy. You do not tell us where your located...if we knew perhaps someone with experience could evaluate your problem. With a balsa core hull and deck you have to be sure there has been no leakage into the core.
In the meantime you could pick up the West System manuals which tell you how to rebed leaking bolts.You may not need to use epoxy , but it would be great informational tool.
If you are lucky, you may just need to rebed with 5200 or its equivalent. You do not want to seal moisture into the core.
Hinterhoeler did a great job in putting in the original bolts, I have recently relocated my main sheet deck block and was pleasantly surprised to find that the bolt holes had been drilled oversize and lined with epoxy...you will understand what I mean when you read the booklet.
The booklets are available at good marine stores including West Marine (not the same company )
Good luck
Paul Robson
Sea Cat N30U
Traveling the Intercoastal
Sent from my iPad

On Apr 10, 2013, at 2:05 AM, "Amy S" <badwo...@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks very much for the tip, Joe. Sounds like we need to skip Plan A and go straight to Plan B.
I wonder if there's anyone out there who has experience removing the toe rail? Any insights would be much appreciated.
- Amy
On Tuesday, April 9, 2013 6:55:30 AM UTC-5, Joe Valinoti wrote:
I strongly suggest you not over tighten the nuts. I had found all of mine loose and snugged them down with the result that small stress cracks appeared on deck. Too late I read on the listserve that one should not tighten them down. Removing and re-bedding may be the only option.
Joe Valinoti
S/V IL Gatto NS30U #221 (1984)
Sea Harbour Yacht Club
Oriental, NC
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\_~ ~ (\_~ ~ (\_~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
----- Original Message -----
From: Amy S
To: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 11:32 PM
Subject: Advice for leaking deck joint bolts / toe rail cap screws - Nonsuch 30
My partner and I acquired a 1979 Nonsuch 30 a few weeks ago. The boat was basically ownerless for a few years and spent part of that time out of the water and part of it in the water (in this case, fresh water). The boat is in good general condition, but it has some interior leaks. Please forgive me if I get the technical terms wrong in the upcoming description of the issue. During a recent rain storm, we were able to observe that several of the bolts coming through the deck joint (the bolts with nuts on them) were dripping water.
Are there other Nonsuch 30 owners on the forum who have experienced and tackled a similar issue? Our thought was that we would start by tightening the nuts on the bolts to see if that might stop the leak. If that doesn't work, presumably we will need to remove the teak toe rail cap and rebed the bolts? Or perhaps the issue is with whatever holds the toe rail cap on? We'd like to take care of the problem in a way that will fix it for the long-term, if possible. We'd be very grateful for any direction from other owners.
Thanks in advance!
Amy
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[Paul Robson]

Sent from my iPad

[Paul Robson]

Amy. You do not tell us where you are located...if we knew perhaps someone with experience could evaluate your problem.  With a balsa core hull and deck you have to be sure there has been no leakage into the core.

In the meantime you could pick up the West System manuals which tell you how to rebed leaking bolts.You may not need to use epoxy , but it would be great informational tool. 

If you are lucky, you may just need to rebed with 5200 or its equivalent. You do not want to seal moisture into the core.

Hinterhoeler did a great job in putting in the original bolts, I have recently relocated my main sheet deck block and was pleasantly surprised to find that the bolt holes had been drilled oversize and lined with epoxy...you will understand what I mean when you read the booklet.

The booklets are available at good marine stores including West Marine (not the same company )

Good luck

Paul Robson

Sea Cat N30U

Traveling the Intercoastal 

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 10, 2013, at 2:05 AM, "Amy S" <badwo...@gmail.com> wrote:

Sent from my iPad

[Paul Robson]

Amy. You do not tell us where your located...if we knew perhaps someone with experience could evaluate your problem.  With a balsa core hull and deck you have to be sure there has been no leakage into the core.

In the meantime you could pick up the West System manuals which tell you how to rebed leaking bolts.You may not need to use epoxy , but it would be great informational tool. 

If you are lucky, you may just need to rebed with 5200 or its equivalent. You do not want to seal moisture into the core.

Hinterhoeler did a great job in putting in the original bolts, I have recently relocated my main sheet deck block and was pleasantly surprised to find that the bolt holes had been drilled oversize and lined with epoxy...you will understand what I mean when you read the booklet.

The booklets are available at good marine stores including West Marine (not the same company )

Good luck

Paul Robson

Sea Cat N30U

Traveling the Intercoastal 

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 10, 2013, at 2:05 AM, "Amy S" <badwo...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[rob dwelley Dwelley]

I agree with bedding the bolts.  No need to do more unless you have to.  Thanks 

Rob

MAINE

[Amy S]

To be honest, I didn't realize that you could get to the bolts without taking up the toe rail. If that is the case, that is a great thing. My partner will be up here this weekend, so we'll go have a good look at the boat together and hopefully figure out what's what. Thank you all for your helpful input.

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[nonchal...@gmail.com]

There may be a drawing (cuts sheet) cross section of the toe rail installation  in the owners manual.

Brian 

Sent from my iPad

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[Joe Valinoti]

I believe you're correct, Brian.  I've seen that myself in mine.

[nonchal...@gmail.com]

On another boat I had, I tightened every 2 nd bolt about a quarter turn (goby feel) if they will take it then go back and do the others. That might be enough to squeeze the butel rubber if its not hard.   There was comment about coring, I would be really surprised if the coring did not stop a couple of inches from the deck joint.

Just my 2 cents worth

Brian

Sent from my iPad

[Larry Jack]

I recall someone suggesting that you have someone below with a wrench tightening the nut while you secure the bolt from above, from turning.  I assume this is to prevent breaking the seal at the head of the bolt. Also, good advice from someone not to over tighten.

 

Larry Jack

30U 261  “Felina”

Shediac, N.B.

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[Lorie Simone]

Amy

A very big question "has the water leaked into the balsa core"?

 

Get a marine appraiser to see where the water has leaked into and if it has gone into the core, he will use an instrument that registers if water is in the core,  what does he suggest you do to repair it. If there is no water in the core, go ahead with rebedding the bolts.

 

Don't use butyl as a sealant, it never cures and is always soft, better to use a proper marine sealant I have always used 3m 5200. 

 

If no water in the core suggest you use a drill attachment to slightly enlarge the area where the head of the bolt will be, but a bead of caulking around the head of the bolt and then insert put don't fully tighten

until the 5200 has hardened slightly, then tighten.  Wipe off the residue with a rag and acetone.

 

good luck,

 

Lorie S. Simone (former owner of REVELATION 30U #260
1203 Acadia Drive,
Kingston, Ont., K7M 8W1
613 634 7457  fax  613 634 2674 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Joe Valinoti]

There is no core by the hull/deck joint,  Everything I've ever read is that 5200 is not for bedding items on deck but for below the water line.

[rob dwelley Dwelley]

Once 5200 is used on these bolts, one will have a hard time working on them the next time.

Rob

Maine

[Allen Perrins]

Hi

3M5200 is a super elastomer . It was used to bed keels to hull stubs.

I believe it is a polyurathane

Does not want to let go.  Unless one really needs the super adhesion,

3M recommends 3M4200 which which is a modified polyurathane with

very good adhesion but not the equal of 3M5200.

A very good product evry similar to 3M4200 is LifeSeal. This was recommended to me

for bedding the shaft strut, inside and outside on a previous boat.  Worked well. This

was before 3M 4200 was introduced. It was good for underwater, strength less than

3M5200 but totally adequate for the job.

 

Al

Barbcat  NS 30C #170

 

 

Subject: Re: Advice for leaking deck joint bolts / toe rail cap screws - Nonsuch 30

[Carl S]

Turns out that the "toe rail" of which Amy spoke is actually a wood cap. I imagine this is decorative and is screwed to the aluminum track that secures the hull/deck joint from above. I think we're ok with not having that acreage to keep varnished, so this may indeed come off. I'm a fan of Boat Life products for bedding (the 3M stuff is great for construction and adhesion but a mess otherwise, see last month's Boat/US magazine) and would prefer to rebed bolts with that. Getting at the heads is the bear tho. Any ideas?

-- Carl Schellbach
NS30C "Last Word"

[ed glynn]

I had the same situation on my 1980 C.  I tightened the nuts on the bolts so that they were just snug.  I was then going to take up the teak toe rail and rebed it.  I started to attempt to remove it however it seems to be set in 5200.  Gave up on that idea and cleaned a small groove on either side of the toe rail and used a good quality silicone caulk in the grooves .  This has stopped any water dripping inside.  I suppose you could remove the wood plugs and the screws and rebed them.  Good luck..

[Carl S]

Glen- we're tag-teaming you! Your solution sounds like it may be the ticket, taking up anything bedded with 5200 is something I'd prefer to avoid if possible. Is there any chance you could provide a visual aid? A cross-section drawing showing where the grooves you cleaned/dug out were? How deep into the cap? And what kind of tool(s) did you use to accomplish the grooves?

Thanks,

-- Carl

NS30C "Last Word"

[ed glynn]

Carl,   I used a roto zip tool,  like a dremmel tool with a small router bit.   On either side of the teak I made a small groove appox 1/16 th to 1/8 inch deep and then applied the silicone.  I used clear silicone but I'm sure a colored caulk would work just as good.  On the outside of the teak on my boat is a rubber rub rail and on the inside is fiberglass.  Again,  If you want to rebed the screws,  you can dig out the wooden plugs and remove and rebed each and every one.  There are lots and lots of them.  Ed

[Thor Powell (Mariner's Cat V - N 26C)]

I am a bit late on all of this but are you sure the leak is from the toe rail?  I had an intermittent leak that took me a couple of years to track down. Finally discovered that the scupper drain fittings on the deck were at the point of disintegration.  The plastic over the years with exposure to the sun had done them in.  A hard rain where water pooled by the drain yielded a leak.

So finding the source is job one before you run off dismantling things.  Sometimes using a shop vac on exhaust can find the source. Run the hose into the cabin and seal the cabin with tape and plastic as well as you can. As the vac pressurizes the cabin spread soapy water about and look for bubbles. You may find the guilty fitting that way.

As for the deck bolts I have had good luck with soft butyl rubber on anything that is bolted. Screws require 3m 4000, butyl does not work unless there is positive compression.

Cheers

T

On Monday, April 8, 2013 11:32:15 PM UTC-4, Amy S wrote:

[Ed Strazzini]

So tell us how you found and replaced the scupper drain fittings.  Mine have been enjoying too much sun over the years and I can see replacement is something I'll have to contend with before too long.

Ed Strazzini

Manatee, N30U #503

Deltaville, VA

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[Carl S]

And we're back! Had a few other things to deal with and kept the toe rails covered in plastic which served to stop the leaks. Also told us where they were. Amy found some water coming in today (from a hose outside, it's now the front burner project) and smushed the butyl tape back into the joint from the inside of the boat, which slowed the leak a great deal. Our toe rail has a wood cap over it, and I guess (hope?) there's an aluminum strip of some sort under that thru which the bolts that hold the deck on pass. We'd like to fix this from the outside in. Joe V mentioned that he'd seen a cross section somewhere, we haven't seen it in the paperwork that came with the boat. Again, we're just fine with losing the cap if it doesn't impact the structural integrity of the joint. Any and all info or referral to sources of info are most welcome. The boat is located in northern Alabama, limiting on-site assistance so we're getting desperate! Thanks for all!

-- Carl
NS30C #45 "Last Word"

[Ron Singerman]

Amy,
I'm confused...  My boat does not have a teak toe rail cap.  Are we talking about the screws that go vertically through the toe rail and the nuts under the deck?

>>ron<<

S/V Serenty II
NS U 30 479
 Gulfport, FL

[Carl S]

Ron-
We've seen many pictures of other boats that do not have the toe rail cap on Yactworld and the like, which leads us to think that either it was a nice looking but poorly executed feature by the builder or a previous owner. The cap seems to be screwed down, tho without removing it we're not sure what to. It doesn't seem to go thru the deck, altho there are a couple of screws that appear near the hull/deck joint bolts when looking from inside the boat. If anybody is aware of the history/mystery of the toe rail cap we'd love to hear it!

Thanks,

[William Salton]

Hi all...This is a very old thread, but here we go. Our NS30 has the same issue and I was wondering how this all worked out. Carl: did you remove the teak, and how did you stop the leak. Ed: are you still happy with the “rotozip” method?
Thanks,

Bill

1979 NS30C Bonheur #40

Niagara-on-the-Lake