Reefing for the First Time

[Tim in STL]

Today was a great day on the water, steady 10kt breeze gusting 15- 20kts  straight across the river.  One tack upstream for two hours, one tack back home.  I reefed early, however, the reef looked really poor.  Can someone give us some advice on how to improve the reef and the look of the sail.  Where it mattered the sail looked and performed well, but the foot of the sail was an embarrassment.  

Here are some photos:

Tim in STL

White O'morn NS26U #216

Harbor Point Yacht Club

West Alton, MO

[Tom Schoenhofer]

Other than easing the reef line a bit to pull some of the slack out of the foot that's pretty much how the reefed sail looks.

When the first reef is in, that first reef clew should be tight flattening the sail like you have it, however that clew tension should come from pulling the choker on. What you may have done is tried to flatten the sail pulling in too much of the reef line, then the choker. I mark the reef lines so with the choker slack I haul them in and cleat them to the mark, then winch the choker. 

Tom

26C #28 with a Botts sail.

Penetang

[Joe Valinoti]

There is something very strange about the reefing lines in those photos.  It seems that the clew cringle should be much lower and closer to the wishbone.  The boat’s manual will tell you how to reef and I have seen the sequence on this discussion list several times.  I don’t have the time right now to go into that.  However. always remember to tension the halyard prior to tightening the clew to avoid breaking the sail slugs or distorting the track.

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V IL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

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[Jim Cosgrove]

I wondered the same thing about the cringle. My clew reefing line pulls much more "down " than this photo shows.  It may just be the camera perspective, but the cringe looks more appropriately placed for the second reef point on the wishbone boom. 

Jim Cosgrove 

FATE 30U #343

Galesville, MD

Sent from iPhone

[Tom Schoenhofer]

I agree Joe, the sail does look odd. But if the sailmaker put the first reef cringle there then Tim doesn't have much choice. Unless Tim used the second reef cringle by mistake (the photos don't show that part of the sail) but then things would look really odd so I don't think this is the case.

Tom

[Tim in STL]

Jim, I agree completely, the second reef point seems to be almost perfectly in align, it will pull straight down however and not aft at all.  I never intend to use the second reef as it seems to be set up for a greater than 70% reduction of sail area.  That type of reduction is not required here in the midwest.  Maybe I will move that first reefing line forward to the second reef block and use the chocker for any outhauling that the sail might need.

Tim in STL

White O'morn NS26U #216

Harbor Point Yacht Club

West Alton, MO

[Mark Powers]

Tim,
How long are the lashing turns at the back of the boom? This raises a point I have not thought about before when
discussions have taken place about using a lashing to move the boom back. In moving the boom back in relation to the sail you have effectively moved the clew reef turning block back as well. You might try shorting the lashing turns so that the clew of the sail is not more then six inches from the casting on the boom. That should change the angle of the clew reef line.

I believe that most of the sailors using lashings have installed an eye bolt in the casting at the back of the boom where the shackle used to connect the sail to the boom. They then lash the clew to the eye bolt rather than around the casting as you have done. The eye of the bolt must be one piece and should be load rated. Whichard 5/16 eyes bolts are rated at 330 pounds. Because the bolt is fixed it does not cause wear to the casting. 1/8 dyneema is rated at 2300 pounds.

Mark Powers
La Reina 26C
Vancouver, B.C.

[R D Young]

Tim, I agree that the outboard reef cringle in your photos appears to be too high and too far forward to give your reefed sail the correct set. On our boat, when reefed, the reef cringles are very nearly inline, both horizontally and vertically, with the reef line pad eyes and the corresponding reef line turning block. I had to use the first reef the last time I was out sailing and it is still in place. If I can remember to do so, I will post a picture of how ours looks next time I am at the boat. My guess is that your first reef cringle is positioned incorrectly as there does not appear to be any way for you to obtain the geometry we have with your setup.

David Young
Bay Cat, 30U #402
Traverse City / Suttons Bay, MI

[Tim in STL]

Here are some photos from today using the 2nd reefing block for the first reef.  Everything looks quite a bit better, but I will still need to play with a few things, such as the length of the lashing at the clew and the tension on the outboard reef line, should the tension come primarily from the reefing line or from the choker?.  As you can see from the last photo, the 2nd reef cringle on the main is still way up there, just below the numbers.   She preformed well like this today, we managed to hit 5.5 kts and only a few scary gybes, that I did manage to soften some.

Tom, Joe, Jim, Mark, and David, thank you all.  We love the boat.  We are taking this as a shakedown season and we are solving one problem at a time.  We really appreciate the help.

[Joe Valinoti]

That look much more reasonable!

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V IL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\_ ~ (\_ ~ (\_~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\_ ~ (\_ ~ (\_~ ~ ~ ~ ~

From: Tim in STL

Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2017 4:18 PM

To: INA Nonsuch Discussion Group

[Tom Schoenhofer]

I think that looks better at the foot. Although wouldn't worry too much about the length of the reefing lines when they were rigged to the first boom block, instead I would use whichever position gave you the best sail shape and was easiest to use.

Be careful, one day you may pull more of the reef line and when you tension the choker this will squeeze the boom together with tremendous force. As it is now it looks OK but with less line here it may break the boom.

Tension comes from the choker, you won't be able to pull any of the clew reef line with the choker set. But in the end the tension on the choker line is countered by the clew.

BTW there is a twist in your topping lift line between the two blocks. It causes friction at a bad place. Easy to fix - untwist it by hand and then tighten the little allen set screw at the base of the bottom block so it won't rotate.

Tom

[Tim Roberts]

Thanks Tom, I will take care of that twist right away.  I hadn't noticed it until you pointed it out.  Pretty obvious now.

Tim in STL

White O'morn NS26U #216

Harbor Point Yacht Club

West Alton, MO

Tim in STL

White O'morn NS26U #216

Harbor Point Yacht Club

West Alton, MO

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[R D Young]

IMHO, it looks a little better but still not great. Seems rather baggy along the foot aft. Doesn’t look like either of your reef cringles really match up with the reefing hardware on your boom but there are so many variables from boat to boat and sail to sail it is hard to really say what your problem is or whether you actually have a problem or not. 

David Young
Bay Cat, 30U #402
Traverse City / Suttons Bay, MI

[ernest...@gmail.com]

Heck...why not weigh in to this, eh ??!!

I, too, had to reef today. This unbelievable heat dissipated thanks to nice North winds giving us flat water and around 12 - 15 knots with gusts. I used my 1st reef but didn't take pictures. What I will say is that my reefs look clean (not because I'm so smart but because things match up well, etc., etc.).

IMHO (love that acronym), a couple of things really don't look too kosher in your photos, Tim. We've all talked about lashing the clew - fine. But it needs to be lashed such that the sail sits no further forward of the end of the boom than if it was shackled, like an inch or so. I feel (strongly) that your lash is WAY too long and that upsets the geometry. 

Quite possibly, your topping lift is too tight and looks like it is supporting the boom as you sail. It should not. The (reefed or unreefed) sail should support the boom - the topping lift is a convenience that keeps the boom from falling into the cockpit, on our heads, when we aren't sailing.

Furthermore, unless you have a REALLY goofy sail (and I doubt this) something is out of whack if you are achieving the best trim by using the 1st TACK reef point and the 2nd CLEW reef point. 

May i suggest - On a windless day, with the choker loose, raise the sail and pull the 1st TACK reef point DRUM tight. It should sit right at the pulley that sends the line back to you in the cockpit (as if it was shackled right there). Then, pull the 1st CLEW reef point really tight so that the cringle sits as close as you can get it to the pulley or tie-off point on the rear of the boom. Here's a trick - Play with the TOPPING lift in order to minimize the distance between the cringle and the pulley THEN loosen the topping lift, allowing the sail to hold the boom up.

I will bet that you'll achieve a decent trim. Same deal with the 2nd reef points, if you use them.

Try the above - I think it'll work.

Cheers,

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Tim Roberts]

Thanks Ernie, I will try those tips.  One point of clarification though.  Today I used the 1st reef tack point and the 1st reef clew cringle, however I used the 2nd outboard reef line for this.  I did not use the 2nd reef clew point.  That 2nd reef clew cringle is way up near to the numbers in the photo.

Tim in STL

White O'morn NS26U #216

Harbor Point Yacht Club

West Alton, MO

Tim in STL

White O'morn NS26U #216

Harbor Point Yacht Club

West Alton, MO

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[Brooks]

Hi All,

Sounds like Tim's questions have been well covered. I have a general reefing comment I believe is worth mentioning. 

About 8,9 years ago when I had an N30 (just got N22), there was a long discussion on reefing technique and as I recall, an interesting conclusion. Still seems reasonable. It was: 

When you first begin to reef, don't drop sail until tack reef cringle reaches final position. Instead, keep cringle a few inches above the desired final position. Set tack reef line to hold this position. Then put tension on halyard until fairly tight. THEN can use tack reef line as though it were a Cunningham. Much easier to get a nice tight luff than with halyard.

Other viewpoints?

Brooks Bridges

NS22OB  #24 An B'ad

Cambridge MD 

[ernest...@gmail.com]

Now THAT is a heck of a good idea, Brooks. My only problem is that my port cabin-top winch is preoccupied, with the halyard wrapped around it. I do not have a rope clutch so all that I can do is yank on the tack reef line with my poor old sad shoulder as I only have a 2:1 mechanical advantage. but ....  I'll give it a shot, anyway !!

Thanks,

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Brooks]

I do miss the rope clutches on my N30. Yesterday I tried this and don't remember having to pull that hard to get a better luff so yes, worth a try.

[Craig Stanley]

Looks to me like you've got the forward reef line at the 1st reef cringle and teh aft reef line at the 2nd reef clew cringle.

Craig Stanley

S/V Matou NS 354

Tampa

On Wednesday, September 27, 2017 at 11:53:44 PM UTC-4, Tim in STL wrote:

[Mark Powers]

According to Ed Botterell in his booklet, Nonsuch thots By Botts, when reefing if you pull the leech cringle down to the boom you can put too much stress on the two arms of the boom with the risk of bending them. You want to aim for about one foot above the boom.

[Thor Powell Mariner's Cat V - 26C - North Channel]

Looks like the first reef line is run to the second reef cringle...

[Tim in STL]

Okay we are into year two of sailing (due to extended river flooding we did not sail at all last year) and I still cannot get the reef to look right.  

I am convinced that the blocks on the boom for the outboard reefs need to be moved.  

Can anyone tell me how far behind the reef cringle the cheek blocks are supposed to be? 

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

Tim -

I have 2 outta-the-box thoughts -

Take a real good look at your boom to see if there are any telltale holes or filled holes that might indicate that a previous owner actually moved either of the cheek blocks to their present location. For that matter, the pad eyes (wrong term, maybe - sorry - I mean the little brackets where you tie the reef line to the boom, on the other side of the cheek block) on the opposite side of either of the cheek blocks should be at the same distances from the clew as the cheek blocks are. Unless, the boat has a newer or different boom from the factory original, it strikes me as almost impossible that a boom would have left the shop with these blocks in a location that differed from all of the others. I do not buy that.

The other thing is that getting a nice crisp looking reef depends on all kinds of variables - tension of the choker, possibly the position of the topping lift, the tension of the luff, etc. Somehow, I don't think that you've achieved the correct "synchronicity ??" here. In plain English, something is out of whack and I don't think that you have to move hardware in order to fix it. I think it's a matter of adjustment.

On a dead calm day, with the boat in it's slip or head to wind on its mooring or at anchor (in really calm conditions), take all the time in the world to fiddle with the sail using a combination of whatever adjustment factors you have ..... until that 1st and then 2nd reef look good. Do this under conditions where you are NOT caught, out there in real wind, where you must reef quickly. 

As I think about, try hauling the boom "a little too high" with the topping lift then, when your reef is set, gently lower the T/L and see if it looks right. I have enclosed a shot of my NS22 with BOTH reefs in (it works - undo the 2nd reef and you slip into the 1st). I'm not doing this to illustrate a "perfect" reef. No such luck, Ernie, but ...... look how tight the topping lift is !! It's actually TOO tight to sail but this shot reminds me of how much I rely on the T/L to take the pressure off of the sail so's I can pull, like hell, on the reefing lines. THEN, when all is set, slack off that T/L and let the sail assume it's designed shape.

My thoughts.

Good luck,

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

Oooops ..... forgot the photo.

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Roger Mongeau]

Tim,

I think Ernie is right.  Perhaps you would like to have the blocks more aft to increase the efficiency of the choker.  The horizontal distance between the cheek bock and the mast needs to be clearly longer than that between the cringle and the mast.  If you see it from the side, the reefing line between the cheek block and the cringle should not be too vertical when the sail is lowered for the reefing.  

Did you try to pass your reefing line from the first reef check block to the second reef cringle ?  If this works better, it may indicate that the reefing cringles should be placed higher by the sail maker, reducing the distance between the cringles and the mast.  Evidently, this will also reduce a larger surface of the sail when reefing.

Good luck,

Roger Mongeau

NS22 #27,  27° Celcius

Magog, Canada

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<Inked2nd reef_LI.jpg>

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

Tim -

Any chance of snapping a few photos of your sail when reefed ?? Perhaps if you raise and reef your sail while docked, you can get some shots and we can all see what is not working (or, might actually BE working).

Ernie A. in Toronto

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[Ron Schryver]

Tim, looking at your picture it appears as though the line for the first reef at the mast is going through the 2nd reef cringle. If this is the case, rerun the reefing line through the lower 1st reef cringle. This will allow the sail to be raised more to its proper height. I think you'll find that the sail will then set properly and that all the reefing tackle is in fact in the proper location.

Ron

Ron & Diane Schryver

"Alpha Waves" 1987 NS30U #393

Georgian Bay Midland ON

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto <ernest...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, Aug 23, 2020 at 3:40 PM
Subject: Re: Reefing for the First Time

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[Joe Valinoti]

I tend to agree with Ron.  I’ve come across this on more then one Nonsuch

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V IL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

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[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

Hi Ron -

Ernie A. here. Right under your post, you show a photo (Inked2nd reef_LI.jpg) and mention "looking at your picture it appears as though the line for the first reef at the mast is going through the 2nd reef cringle etc., etc."

IF that is the photo you refer to, you are mistaken. THAT photo is one of MY sail with (hope you are sitting down) BOTH reefs tied in - Wow !!  Looking at the photo (with all of the scribbling on it) now, yes, it does look a bit goofy. However, the reefs are all in the right place. It was windy, that day. I put in the 1st reef before leaving the dock (I do that a lot). Off I went. it really started to blow. So, without shaking out the 1st reef, I just put in the 2nd. It worked absolutely perfectly. My boat is an NS22. Maybe, due to sail design, one cannot commit this sacriledge on a larger Nonsuch - I do not know. 

Eventually, the wind eased a bit and I shook out the 2nd reef. I sailed with the undisturbed 1st reef. It got calmer and I shook out the 1st reef and sailed with full sail. 

It all worked. I've, since, done that a lot. I inserted the photo originally to show Tim what a not-too-messy 2nd reef should look like.

Sorry if my post was confusing in the first place, though.

Ernie A. in Toronto

Georgian Bay Midland ON

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[Tim in STL]

Today we went to the harbor to figure this out.  We took up the weight of the wishboom with the topping lift, loosened the chocker all the way,  shortened the clew connection to within 3" of the casting, pulled the 1st reef tack tight, raised the sail pulling the halyard tight, and hauled in the 1st outboard reef cringe as tight as I could get it. The cringe seemed to be almost back even with the 2nd reef block and about 22" or so above the wish boom.  Here are the photos.  Please critique.

I am stumped.

[Mark Powers]

Tim.

When I go to the boat tomorrow I will try to remember to take measurements of the location of the reefing line blocks. 

When you go to reef lift up on the topping lift until the two blocks are almost touching. You can’t lift the boom with the reef line so you must get the boom as high as you can with the topping lift. Then once you have the tack reef line tight and you have hardened the halyard pull in on the leech reef line until it is about 1 ‘ to 1.5’ above the boom. Then ease off the topping lift until it is completely slack. Then harden the choker. At that point the sail should be holding the weight of the boom not the topping lift.

In the last two photos it looks like the topping  lift is still tight. If it is it will stop the choker from flattening the sail. 

When you have the opportunity I suggest that you measure your sail. Length of foot. Height of each leech and tack reef cringle above the foot of the sail. Do this by measuring from the tack and the clue up to the reef cringles. Also the distance from the tack reef  cringle to the corresponding leech cringle.   I can the pull out my Botts sail and we can make a comparison. My Botts sail is about 9 seasons old so it should be close to original measurements. 

When you do the measurements pull the sail snug but measure on a straight line. Don’t try to follow the curve of the sail cloth.

Mark Powers

La Reina 26C

Vancouver, B.C.

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

Tim -

The only thing that I can say is that it appears, from the photos, that your 1st outboard reef line is, indeed, running through the correct hardware but looks like it is passing through (and yanking down) the 2nd reef cringle of your sail. It's as if your 1st reef cringle has been missed.

Am I right ??

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Tim in STL]

No Ernie that is the 1st reef cringle, the 2nd reef cringe would be almost at mid boom.

Tim in STL

White O’morn NS26U

Harbor Point Yacht Club

West Alton, MO 

[Joe Weinbrecht]

On my c26 with sail laying in stackpack, first reef cringle is 3ft from clew and 2nd reef cringle is about 6ft from clew under no pressure other than hand straightening for furling. 

 The old sail that came with the boat had 3 reefs which I learned after rigging to the 1st and 3rd inadvertently. 

Joe

SEA HORSE 

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[Joe Valinoti]

I would love to see a photo of the sail all the way up so that all the cringles on the luff and also the ones for the clue are visible.

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V IL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA
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From: Tim in STL

Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2020 5:10 PM

To: INA Nonsuch Discussion Group

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[Tim in STL]

I will try to get a better shot the next time I am at the boat.  I did find these two old photos.  One was the day we bent on the sail for the first time.  The second photo shows the two reef cringles, but not the clew.

Tim in STL

White O’morn NS26U

Harbor Point Yacht Club

West Alton, MO

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

How utterly bizarre, Tim -

It's almost as if your 1st OUTBOARD reef cringle is where the 2nd should be and the 2nd is where the 3rd should be. My instant gut reaction is to question your sail. Does it conform to the page in your owners manual that discusses sail dimensions for an NS 26 ??

Granted, my boat (and sail) are smaller than yours but I've attached the page out of my owners manual that discusses the placement of reefing cringles (and damn near everything else) on an NS 22..

I would not move hardware on the boom or placement of reefing lines until I was certain that your cringles were, indeed, in the right place (or, just possibly, that your sail is not the proper size - you never know). That said, it wouldn't be a big deal to have a local sailmaker insert two cringles in the "right place". (Or, you could wait until Xmas and just check with ...yup .... Kris Kringle.)  OK - BAD JOKE. 

I've also attached a couple of photos showing what my two outboard reefs look like. They certainly aren't perfect but things seem to line up well (until one of my knots lets go and the line wraps around the prop without me being aware of same - THAT was an interesting day on the water).

Anyway, I'd check that sail. Just possibly, it is not quite the right size  or .... ??

Good luck.

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Paul Miller]

My boat isn’t a 26 either but my first reaction to your picture was the same as Ernie's. Looks like a second and third but no first leach cringle.

Paul M

NS30U #211, Sandpiper 

Cowichan Bay, B.C.

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

Tim -

I just peeked at the 2 latest shots that you posted (the old ones). Rest assurred that it isn't something that "YOU are smoking". In my opinion, it was something that the sailmaker "was smoking".

It just doesn't look kosher at all.

Ernie A. in Toronto 

[Joe Weinbrecht]

Ernie, my 22 manual was missing that page.

Joe

C26

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[Tim in STL]

Thanks Ernie and Paul,

I am starting to feel better, although I am still not sure of the solution(s).   The Sail was made in Halifax for the previous owner, maybe they like their reefs a bit deeper up there.  

I will take some measurements next time and compare them to the ones in the book:

REEF 1  CLEW 6'-5".   TACK 9'-0"

REEF 2  CLEW 13'-2". TACK 17'-5"

Tim in STL

White O’morn NS26U

Harbor Point Yacht Club

West Alton, MO

[Paul Miller]

Here a pic of mine, again not a 26, but look at the reef positions relative to the size of the sail.

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Paul M
NS30U #211, Sandpiper

Cowichan Bay B.C.

[Paul Miller]

[Paul Miller]

Sorry about the double. The attachment took its time.😁

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[Tim in STL]

I don't want to be a pest, but I do have another reefing question. The dimensions given in the manual for REEF 1 TACK, and REEF 2 TACK, are those dimension taken along the leech, or are they vertical dimensions?

Tim in STL

White O’morn NS26U

Harbor Point Yacht Club

West Alton, MO

[Joe Valinoti]

Unless I’m mis-reading what you’re asking, the tack is where you secure the luff not the leech of the sail usually at or somewhere near the base of the mast.

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V IL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\_ ~ (\_ ~ (\_ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\_ ~ (\_ ~ (\_~ ~ ~ ~

 

From: Tim in STL

Sent: Monday, August 31, 2020 4:49 PM

To: INA Nonsuch Discussion Group

Subject: Re: Reefing for the First Time - part 3

 

[C Linkinhoker]

Interesting Ernie,

I have 2 manuals for the 26, one came with the boat, and a slightly different version I downloaded from where, I have forgotten. Both similar, but neither with the info you showed. So off to INA, and there was a 26 manual with the same type of info regarding the sail, and many more things of interest! So now I have 3 manuals. Pays to keep looking, I guess.

Carl Linkinhoker

NS26C, 146, Break of Day

Mayfield, NewYork

---

From: ina-nonsuch-di...@googlegroups.com <ina-nonsuch-di...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto <ernest...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2020 1:07:47 PM
To: INA Nonsuch Discussion Group <INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: Reefing for the First Time - part 3

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[Tim in STL]

Oops!  Thanks Joe. Sorry guys, my senility must be kicking in.  What I meant to ask was whether the dimensions given in the manual for the clew reef points are measured vertically or along the leech.  My copy of the manual gives 6'-5" for the 1st reef and 13'-2" for the second reef.  I will measure ours when the weather permits, bu try guess it that, here in inland waters, we will never need the 2nd reef which seems to be half way up the leech.

Tim in STL

White O’morn NS26U

Harbor Point Yacht Club

West Alton, MO

[Mark Powers]

Tim, 

I measured from the joint between the boom tube end and the casting. It is 20 1/2” from the joint to the centre of the first reef block sheave. It is 57” from the joint to the centre of the second reef sheave. 

Let me know if you want to measure the positions of the cringle on the sail. 
The photo you attached looks like you have a second and third reef cringles.

Mark Powers

La Reina 26C

Vancouver, B.C.

[Tom Schoenhofer North Star 26C#28 Penetang]

Tim

Careful, if you are using the N26U manual (this info isn't in the 26C manual that I could find) I believe the dimensions for the reef eyes in the sail are right but clew and tack are backwards.

This photo of my 20 year old Botts sail, you can see where the eyes are. The 4 battens in the leech are equally spaced. If Leech is 42.5 feet it means the battens are 8.5 feet so the first reef eye at the leech up from the clew at 9' makes sense.

 

[R N]

One way to double-check your measurements on reef tack and clew placement is to remember that (the following quote is from a guide to Nonsuch sailing you can find on the INA website at https://nonsuch.org/resources/Documents/General%20PDFs/Sailing%20a%20Nonsuch%20Cat%20Boat%20ver%202.pdf):

"The Nonsuch sail has two relatively shallow reefs.  The first reef reduces the sail are by approximately 36%; the second reef reduces the sail area by an additional 31%.  Therefore under a double reef, the [total] sail area has been reduced by approximately 67%."

The specified sail area for a N26 is 420 sq. ft.   Thus, the placement of your first reef tack and clew (sometimes referred to as forward and aft first reefs) should give you about 268.8 sq feet of sail above them.  The second reef tack and clews (aka forward and aft second reefs) should give you about 138.6 sq. ft. above the points.

Because the sail's not a perfect right triangle, there's a little work in figuring this out, but approximating it as one is probably good enough to do a quick check.

-- Bob

   Solar Wind

   Nonsuch 26C #143

On Wednesday, September 27, 2017 at 8:53:44 PM UTC-7, Tim in STL wrote:

Today was a great day on the water, steady 10kt breeze gusting 15- 20kts  straight across the river.  One tack upstream for two hours, one tack back home.  I reefed early, however, the reef looked really poor.  Can someone give us some advice on how to improve the reef and the look of the sail.  Where it mattered the sail looked and performed well, but the foot of the sail was an embarrassment.  

Here are some photos:

Tim in STL

White O'morn NS26U #216

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

Hi Tim -

If I were you .....  I'd be in St. Louis, eating a cheap, good steak at the "Steak Nazi", right across the street from the fabulous Fox Theater. 

Regarding your sail, here is my thought:

Summer is flying by and, unless you take the sail down and ... and ... etc., reef "strangely" or just don't reef. When it's that sad time for many of us, take the sail down and take it to your local sailmaker armed with the 2 proper mesasurements for the aft reef points taken from the middle of the clew on the sail to the middle of both both aft reef cringles. 

With ALL due respect to "various editions" of owners' manuals including the one with the backwards info ...... I wouldn't trust them. Also, I wouldn't break my head doing all of the calculations (even though I am certain that they are absolutely valid). I would wait it out, play dumb and ask/cajole/bribe (with you-know-what)/ beg/ demand/hope for guys like Mark Powers, Carl Linkinhoker, Tom Schoenhofer, Ted Eedson, Thor Powell or the host of other veteran NS26 sailors to measure this length that you need the next time that they take their sail down. You may find that, overwhelmingly, these measurements are very close, from boat to boat ,and it may be really helpful.

That said, I am certain that all of your hardware is on the boom in the correct place and that the sailmaker in Halifax screwed up big-time and put those reef cringles in seriously bogus locations.

That's what I would do !!  It's not a big fix and, guaranteed, it's the sail that's out.

Best of luck,

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Tim in STL]

Thanks Ernie, Bob, Tom and Mark,

I think Ernie's idea seems best to me at the moment.  There are too many variations right now from 20 1/2" up to 9 feet.  I had always read that each reef should take in about 10 to 12% of sail area, that would match the 20 1/2" dimension.  The 9' would match the 36%.  

Perhaps the difference of 12% to 36% is because the Nonsuch main is not a conventional main, but more like a Genoa ?

I hope to get to the boat soon and get all pertinent dimensions.

There are no abandoned holes in the boom, so I assume that the boom is correct and the sail is suspect.

Tim in STL

White O’morn NS26U

Harbor Point Yacht Club

West Alton, MO

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

Are you referring to my idea of "picking up a slab at the Steak nazi" ??

The truth is, Tim, I forgot one important detail. Whichever kind member comes to your aid with the measurements that I suggested, that member, ideally, should provide measurements for the sail - leach, luff and straight foot (mast to clew or tack to clew) and, of course, what are the measurements from tack cringle to 1st and 2nd TACK reef cringles as well as well as clew reef cringles. 

I'll bet that some sails are not quite the same sizes as others. If the reef measurements can be messed up, so can the overall dimensions. 

This way, you truly can compare your sail with another.

Cheers,

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Joe Weinbrecht]

Here are the cringle measurements from the tack and clew for the sail Mack Sails just made for me

First reef 

luff 5.0’

Leech 6.7’

Second reef

Luff 11.14’

Leech 14.3’

Joe

C26

Sea Horse

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[Tim in STL]

We were able to get to the boat today, after a very busy few months.  Here are the dimensions of the first reef on our NS26U

First Reef

Luff      6'-8"

Leech  10'-7"

Foot.    19'-10"

I see that it does not pair with Joe's dimensions at all, although Joe did not post the foot dimension of his first reef.  And I think the foot dimension is the one controlling the placement of the cheek block on the boom.

How do these numbers compare with some others?

Tim in STL

White O’morn NS26U

Harbor Point Yacht Club

West Alton, MO

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[Thor Powell Mariner's Cat V 26C Brentwood Bay BC]

Looks like the reef points on the sail are in the wrong place ..or the blocks on the boom are too far back.  From the pictures the blocks look wrong. Maybe someone who is close to their boat can give you the measurements.

[Tim in STL]

Thor,

I think the reef points are pretty close to being right, the Nonsuch Ultra 26 manual lists the First Reef Tack as 6'-5" and the Clew as 9'-0", so that is close to my 6'-8" and 10'-7".

The one dimension that I cannot verify is the Foot dimension at the First Reef , 19'-10".  I hope some others can give me the dimension at their First Reef.  That dimension affects the Cheek Block placement more than the others.

Tim in STL

White O’morn NS26U

Harbor Point Yacht Club

West Alton, MO

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

Hi Tim -

I've attached the photo that you originally sent in. I’m only using your photo of your boom to illustrate the positions of the reefing cheek blocks on your boom. The RED line shows the distance from the casting at the aft end of the boom to the 1st reefing block. And, the GREEN line shows the same thing for the 2nd reefing block.

 I will, herewith, invoke Mark Powers. He has stated that on his N26, the distance to the 1st reef block is 20.5 “. The distance to the 2nd block is 57”. I still maintain that these measurements did not change “at the factory” and the hardware was mounted in the same place on all of the N26 booms. To me, just looking at your photo, I think that your blocks are in the right place and, in my opinion, your cringles are too high up on the sail.

They simply look/seem/appear somewhat too high relative to any other Nonsuch sail that I've seen.

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Bob Neches (Solar Wind, N26C #143)]

Tim,

I blew up your picture titled, 1st Reef Pulled Tight, to take a closer look at your blocks (see the attached picture).

It looks to me like your first reefing line is running through the block on the starboard side of the wishbone (the more forward one), while your second reefing line is running through the block on the port side (the one further aft). 

If I'm seeing that correctly, that's the opposite of how they're supposed to run.  If so, might be the source of your problem. 

The first reef line should be tied around the boom on the starboard side (passing through an eye that's across from the turning block), pass through the first reef clew cringle,  run through the aft turning block on the inner port side, and run forward from there. 

The second reef line should be tied to to the boom on the port side, run through the second reef clew cringle higher up the sail, pass through the turning block on the inner starboard side of the wishbone (located further forward compared to the first reef turning block) , and run forward from there.

-- Bob

   Solar Wind

   Nonsuch 26C #143

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

Bob -

As I see it, we are all looking at the 1st reefing line in that photo. Fair enough. The problem is that it is passing through the SECOND reefing cringle, right ?  Not right.

The 1st reefing line, coming from the 1st reefing "hardware" on the boom is, indeed, passing through the 1st cringle. And, to my eyes (and, perhaps, the eyes of others), this 1st reefing cringle is in the wrong place onTim's sail - it is too high up. So... right line .... correct cringle .... cringle in wrong location. And, it appears that it's the same story for the 2nd reefing line.

I think .... (actually, I'm almost sure).

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Bob Neches (Solar Wind, N26C #143)]

Tim,

If the line from the reefing block on the port inner side of your wishbone is going to the lowest reefing cringle on your sail (i.e., the first one up the leech from the sail's clew), then Ernie is right and that cringle's placed way too high up.

However, as I look at the picture, there appears to be a line dangling down from the forward of the two blocks, the one sitting closer to the mast on the inner starboard side of your wishbone.  It looks like it's going down into the sail that's collected in the jacklines, which made me think it's going to a reef point lower on the sail than the one that's visible.  If that's the case, then I'm right and your lines need to be rearranged.

In case Ernie's right, let me tell you about my sail since it might cheer you up. 

Another owner had a brand new sail made for him, and immediately discovered that both aft reef points were placed too high.  He made the loft build a replacement sail for him at no cost, with the reef points in the right place.  He sold the original sail with the incorrect reef points to me, for $600 plus about $50 in shipping. 

Leaving the old aft reef points alone, I paid a local sailmaker about $200 to put in new reef points below them.  (I guesstimated where they should be by reefing to the forward points and marking the sail at a spot about a generous hand's breadth at a 45 degree angle up from each reefing block while pulling the sail down and back.  Purists will be horrified by that unscientific approach, but it worked out pretty well.)  

The point is, if Ernie's right, you can get your sail fixed for not a huge amount of money (by boating standards).  If I'm right, the fix is free.

-- Bob

   Solar Wind

   Nonsuch 26C #143

[Mark Powers La Reina 26C Vancouver, B.C.]

Tim,

 I pulled my Botts sail out of the crawl space yesterday and did some measuring. The tack to the clue measures 20' 4".  Length of foot at first reef measuring from cringle to cringle is 17' 7". Foot at second reef is 15' 5".  Measuring from centre of cringle to centre of cringle the distance from the tack to the first reef is 6' 10". From the clew to the first reef 10' 4".  From first reef point on luff to second reef point on luff is 12' 8". First reef point to second reef point on the leech is 8' 8".

As a matter of interest I weighed the sail. It came in at 50 pounds.

I have a Sobstad sail as well and will measure it on a nice day in the future. It is raining today and part of the sail sticks out of the garage when I lay it out.

Mark Powers

[Tim in STL]

Mark, Thanks you SO much for doing that.  Now I think the reefing problem might be the fault of the skipper.

Your tack to clew measures 20'4" ours is 20'-5"

Your foot at first reef is 17'-7" ours is 18'-0" +/-

Your distance to first reef tack cringle is 6'-10" ours is 6'-5"

Your distance to first reef clew cringle is 10'-4" ours is 9'-0"

So there is really very little difference between your Botts sail and our UK Halsey sail.  The main difference is the first reef clew and that is a difference of only 16".  In my mind the first reef foot measurement should determine the location of the first reef cheek block on the boom and ours. at 18'-0" should be am even better lead than your 17'-7".  I will have to do a little more reading over the winter and try to figure out what I am doing wrong.  I can hardly wait till next season to try this out again.

Thanks again Mark,

Tim in STL

White O’morn NS26U

Harbor Point Yacht Club

West Alton, MO

[Mark Powers La Reina 26C Vancouver, B.C.]

A couple of items that I found were critical on La Reina. First you have to raise the boom high enough with the topping lift to get the reef cringle to within 1' to 1 1/2' of the boom.  Once that is done and the leech reef line made fast you must fully release the topping lift and then harden the choker. If there is any tension in the topping lift it will keep you from hardening the choker sufficiently.  The topping lift holds the heel of the boom up and the choker is trying to push the heel of the boom down. It becomes a case of an immovable object meeting an irresistible force. You need to make sure the wind is not putting pressure on the sail as you harden the choker or it  may prevent you from flattening the sail sufficiently. Sufficiently flat according to Ed Botterall means the sail does not touch the leeward side of the boom. When you do this check to make sure the front of the boom is not pulled back against the mast. It is unlikely but it does not hurt to check.

My reefing sequence:

1 fall off to a comfortable point of sail and ease the sheet to take the power of the wind out of the sail. (If you are not racing consider using your engine to hold the boat steady)

1(a) Ease the choker, a lot.

2 Harden the topping lift as much as possible, (the blocks almost touch)

3 Ease the halyard while pulling in on the forward reef lines until the first reef cringle is right down (I pull in both reef lines so I don't have spare second reef line flapping about)

4 Tie off the halyard and harden the first reef line, hard

5 Harden the halyard - about as hard as I can get it.

6 Haul in on the leech reef lines until the first reef cringle is about a foot above the boom. (again I pull both lines so that I don't have spare second reef line flapping about trying to snag on something) If you can't get the reef cringle to within a foot of the boom the standing part of the topping lift may be too long. If so, it will need to be shortened. I find it very difficult if not impossible to lift the boom with the reef line.

7 Let the topping lift right off

8 Harden the choker, really hard. Check to make sure there is no tension in the topping lift. The sail should flatten right out and not touch the boom.

Sheet in and continue sailing. (shut off the engine if you used it)

Everyone has their own variation of the sequence. I do not suggest this as the only one but just the one I use. I wold be happy to learn of one that works better.

Practice when there is not wind.

Good luck.

Mark Powers

[Bob Neches (Solar Wind, N26C #143)]

Mark raises some good points about the topping lift.  It's almost impossible to pull the boom up with the reefing lines, so it's essential to get the topping lift to raise the boom high enough before taking in the reef lines.

-- Bob

   Solar Wind

   Nonsuch 26C #143

[Tim in STL]

We were out today in some very blustery winds.  The forecast was 10kts gusting to 16, what we got was 20 plus gusting to 32.  We rigged the second reef for the first time and the results were awful.  I could not get decent sail shape at all and the third batten was bending around the boom.  I think the sail needed a lot more downward pull from the reefing line.  Any suggestions?  I had raised the boom with the topping lift, but when I released the topping lift the boom came down to head bumping height.

Tim in STL

White O’morn NS26U #216

Harbor Point Yacht Club

West Alton, MO

[Paul Miller]

That looks awfully high for a second reef, more like where I’d expect a third reef. Admittedly I don’t know the 26 very well but it looks to me like the points on the boom are second reef but the reef cringle in use is the third. There certainly seems to be a lot of horizontal distance between the boom points and the reef cringle.

Paul M

NS30U #211, Sandpiper 

Cowichan Bay, B.C.

[Bob Neches (Solar Wind, N26C #143)]

Tim,

You're right that you need a lot more downward pull. 

When everything's in order, my understanding has always been that the aft reefing lines should be pulling their cringle to a position very near, and almost level with or slightly above, the corresponding cheekblock and attachment points on the wishbone.  Just like with the lashing from the full sail clew to the end of the wishbone.   On other boats, I was taught that the angle of force on the clew of a loose-footed sail should form a line that (if extended) would bisect the sail.  This was so that forces down and back are both applied.  I don't think having a wishbone boom changes that logic, I think it just changes what device serves to apply those forces.

I concur with Paul's impression that it looks like the aft second reef line might be running through the sail's third reef cringle.  Looking very closely at the picture, it looks like there's an unused reef cringle visible among the folds of sail directly below the wishbone cheekblock for the second reef line.  I wonder it that cringle is the one the line should be running through.

This is all assuming that your sail has three reef points.  If not, there's a more complicated discussion to be had. 

-- Bob

   Solar Wind

   Nonsuch 26C #143

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

Tim (my old buddy from St. Lou) -

It looks like we are right back to that spirited discussion that took place regarding where the reefing cringles are placed on your sail. If I remember correctly, many of us felt that the 1st and 2nd clew cringles were actually located where the 2nd and 3rd reef points should be (finicky measurements and calculations be damned - just look at the photo of that poor sail).

I will bet the entire cost of a full 4 oz. steak dinner at you-know-where (or even a cast-iron frying pan loaded with the world's best fried chicken from Stroud's in KC) that your tack reef point is where the second reef SHOULD be and the clew reef point, as shown in that photo, is exactly where a 3rd reef point should be.

If I am mistaken (always possible), then I know, for dead sure, that the clew reef point is NOT where the 2nd reef point should be - it is simply WAY too high. I believe (tho I might be wrong) that one of our stalwart NS26 owners had sent you a list of where THEIR reef points are (correctly) placed. I'd also imagine that your sail is awfully close, if not exactly the same (correct) size as other NS 26 sails. 

I even think that I suggested that, over these long (COVID-enhanced) winters, with those correct measurements in hand, that you get your local sailmaker to add the necessary cringles in the right locations.

The only comment that I can conclude with is to, once again, suggest the same solution.

Good luck, chum - take care.

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Tim in STL]

This has to be the fault of the skipper.  The sail dimensions come very close to matching Mark's Bott's sail.   The sail was made in Halifax by UKHalsey, it has two reefs.

This is from a previous post responding to Mark.

Mark, Thanks you SO much for doing that.  Now I think the reefing problem might be the fault of the skipper.

Your tack to clew measures 20'4" ours is 20'-5"

Your foot at first reef is 17'-7" ours is 18'-0" +/-

Your distance to first reef tack cringle is 6'-10" ours is 6'-5"

Your distance to first reef clew cringle is 10'-4" ours is 9'-0"

So there is really very little difference between your Botts sail and our UK Halsey sail.  The main difference is the first reef clew and that is a difference of only 16".  In my mind the first reef foot measurement should determine the location of the first reef cheek block on the boom and ours. at 18'-0" should be am even better lead than your 17'-7".  I will have to do a little more reading over the winter and try to figure out what I am doing wrong.  I can hardly wait till next season to try this out again.

I must be doing something wrong, I don't know what, but at the moment is just a matter of not being able to see the forest for the trees.  I am going to raise the sail in the harbor with the second reef set in the harbor and play around with the topping lift and the choker until I can get it to look right.

Tim in STL

White O’morn NS26U #216

Harbor Point Yacht Club

West Alton, MO

[Mark Powers La Reina 26C Vancouver, B.C.]

Tim,

First thing to remember is we are not a fault based group here at the INA. We are problem solvers.

I have been fighting with the reefs on La Reina as well.
I don’t think it is effecting the reefing but I would recommend that you put another wrap around the boom where you tie off the reef line and make the loops tight. Next check the tack reef line. Make sure that is tigh enough that the cringle is kept in line with the mast.  It should not pull out from the mast. I now run the reef line around the block up through the U shaped bracket on the mast collar, through the cringle and back to the bracket and tie it off with a very tight knot. I will try to attach a photo. 

Next in the photo you sent the topping lift looks tight and I suspect it is preventing you from hardening the choker. I had the same problem and was bending the top of the mast back but still could not flatten the sail. My suggestion is that you need to shorten the standing part of the topping lift and lengthen the safety pigtail so that the boom can come down as far as is safe. If you have someone who can go up the mast rig a temporary standing line about 38’ long. Slacken the choker righ off and Then lift the boom very high. Then try pulling in the clew reef line and see if you can get it to about 1 1/2’ from the second reef turning block. Let the topping lift right off and then harden the corker and see if you can flatten the sail. Try all of this on a calm day. 

Oh, yes, also look for a different weather forecaster.

Mark Powers

[Tim in STL]

In case no one has seen these photos before, UKHalsey rigged the bottom cringes so that the are fastened to the sail with a continuous line, this method facilitates reefing by allowing the tack cringe to be pulled all the way down to the reefing block.  The slides will stack in the slot but the sail can be pulled down much further.

Tim in STL

White O’morn NS26U #216

Harbor Point Yacht Club

West Alton, MO

[Mariner's Cat V 26C Brentwood Bay BC]

OK  my 2 cents worth. The UK arrangement looks to have  way more friction than going via the reef points.  I would put a ring with webbing loops at each point  and then a block to run the line up and down.  Doing this will ensure the reef point is at the clew and there is zero friction.  Sometimes sail makers think too hard :)

[Tim in STL]

I have seen that recommended before.  What size rings and webbing? I can make two of those, one for each reef tack.

 Tim in STL

White O’morn NS26U #216

Harbor Point Yacht Club

West Alton, MO

[Mariner's Cat V 26C Brentwood Bay BC]

Ring should be 1/3  larger than the grommet.  Blocks a Garhauer 25 would be fine

.

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

Tim -

Here's a shot of my 1st tack reef in place. Note the ring and note how tight the line is and how close to the mast it is.

Ernie A. in Toronto