Length of sail lashing (or more Nonsuch White Magic)

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

Hello all -

The weather is too crappy to sail up here so I thought I'd start a riff on a recent thread.

This is gonna sound overly simplistic but .... When each model of the Nonsuch was designed, a sail with particular dimensions was also spec'd. The measurements were detailed in the owners' manuals. And, of course, one of the measurements was the length of the foot. And, yes, conflicting information has been known to arise in these manuals.

Regardless, I was one of the many newbie owners who bought one of these fabulous boats and found a shackle at the clew of the sail and, naturally, attached same to the back of the boom.

One good windy day and ....  "BANG". That shackle busted and, luckily, nothing else was damaged except my pride (not the first time nor will it be the last time). So, without even checking any further (read the book, typical male, read the book), I lashed the clew to the boom. Only later on did I discover that this was the correct approach.

BUT ..... I figured that the length of the lash (regardless of how many loops, thickness, etc.) should be around the same as if IT WAS SHACKLED to the boom i.e. just a few inches. It just did not make sense to me that Mark Ellis (or Ed Botterell) had actually worked out some magical "distance" (that the clew should be) from the back of the boom - I feel that their thought is that the sail should sit with clew closely attached. Otherwise, aside from looking a bit goofy, extra distance does introduce a possibility that that clew is sitting "too high" or "too .. ???" from the end of the boom.

This is providing that the foot of the sail is the designed length. 

Also, the longer the lash, the less distance the boom can travel back to flatten the sail, no ??

The lash length on my sail is around 2" - the length of a shackle. I can choke the boom way back and flatten the dickens out of the sail.

And so, I conclude by really questioning lash lengths of 22" or, honestly, even 8". I don't believe that this is what the designer(s) wanted.

Comments ??

Ernie A. in watery Toronto

[Terence Cutts]

Ernie, Mike Quill told me this past weekend on Phoenix that the sail should not be shackled (mine is) as it will wear the cast aluminum and indeed should be lashed ( length about 4”-6” ) . 

Not only will this lash prevent wear on the casting but in case of emergency the lashing is can simply be cut. 

Terry & Clarise

nonsu...@gmail.com

647-205-9609

#404 Toronto

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[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

Hi Terry -

As I mentioned, my sail is lashed and I've known about this practice for years. Mike is certainly correct. And, almost all of us do lash the sail. 

My question concerned how long the lashing should be. I questioned the idea of a lashing that seemed, to me, to be overly long. All of that said, it is interesting to hear Mike's opinion of how long the lashing should, in fact, be. Food for thought, as always.

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Robert Horne]

What material (type, diameter, spec, how many turns) do you lash with? And add a photo of the lashing and how it is terminated. Bob Horne, 2989 N26C, 248, Encore, Pocasset, MA

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 9, 2021, at 2:29 PM, Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto <ernest...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Terry -

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[Joe Valinoti]

I think that mine is 5/16” and about 4” to 6” long.  Don’t know how many wraps, but at least 6.

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

~~~~~(\_ ~(\_ ~(\_~~~~~~~~~~

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[Barbara Melanson]

About 10 years ago, upon advice from this group,  I changed from a shackle to a lashing. I used some hi-tech lashing material. After a few uses the lashing suddenly broke while under sail. My husband insisted that we go back to a shackle so that is what we did.  No problem observed since. My shipyard seems to like it that way, but I always wonder if this is the best thing to do. 

Barbara Melanson

Gimlet II 33 14

Groton Long Point, CT

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

Barbara -

Only a lashing should be used so that, if necessary to save the sail or the boat (or you), it can break. On a Nonsuch, sorry, it should be a lashing. If a shackle breaks (as mine did) it can take out your eye, your face or your head. And (almost forgot), a lashing makes a far more flexible joint than a steel shackle.

Your shipyard may like a shackle (because it sure looks like a place where a shackle could live) but, with respect, they know less about Nonsuches than you or your husband or all of us.

All of that said, I use a length of 3/16ths Dyneema that is probably too strong and wouldn't break. No good, frankly. Others may (hopefully) chime in with the correct sized lo-stretch non-Dyneema line that should actually be used.

But, a shackle ?? Nope, never.

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Barbara Melanson]

Thank you, Ernie. That does make sense.

Where is the best place to find directions on the proper way to do lashing.

Barbara

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[Mark Powers La Reina 26C Vancouver, B.C.]

I thought the intent of using a lashing instead of a shackle was so that it could be cut if need be, not that the lashing wold work as a fail safe and be the first thing to break in an extreme situation.  The manual in the section on rigging states "Clew lashed to eyeplate at end of wishbone". It does not specify the line to be used or the method of lashing. 

When I bought La Reina a shackle was fitted.  Eventually while waiting for a new shackle to arrive I installed an eye bolt in the boom casting and used a lashing. The eyebolt snapped off in 12 knots of breeze. The eye bolt was not load rated, my mistake. I used an eyebolt so that the edges of the casting wold not cut the lashing. An alternative is to use a file to smooth the hole in the casting. I again have a twist shackle in place. An additional problem with a shackle is that the shackle is made of stainless steel and wears the casting as it moves. If not dealt with this can lead to the casting failing. I have added stainless steel plates to the casting to the shackle works on the plates rather than the casting. 

A lashing has the added benefit of allowing you to adjust the position of the mainsheet. A longer lashing moves the boom and hence the mainsheet back. This keeps it further from the person on the helm. If it is too long the boom will contact the mast before the sail is fully flattened by the choker so there are limits to what you can do. 

Since I use a shackle contrary to the manual and the advice of many like Ernie, I can't give you guidance on the line type of lashing technique.

Mark Powers

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

Mark -

I think that you are quite correct with regard to cutting the lashing. but, after that whole (well-thought-out) explanation, you conclude by stating that you use a shackle !!

You never cease to amaze me, skipper.

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Mark Powers La Reina 26C Vancouver, B.C.]

I am nothing if I am not inconsistent.  Ralph Waldo Emerson had something to say about consistency and hobgoblins, although I think he had something different in mind than erratic, irrational behavior.

Mark Powers

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

Barbara -

Honestly, I do not know of a "correct" way to do this lashing but, it simply means "tying the clew of the sail to the end of the boom". It isn't like doing a splice or anything as intricate as that.

I use a 3' length of (I think) 3/16th Dyneema. It is brutally strong. Now that I think of it .....  I break my own rules because there is a big SHACKLE attached to the end of the boom that I tie the lashing to. Oooooops ...... silly me - I'll look into changing that and find a sensible way to tie to the boom itself. Anyway, I tie a bowline to the clew and then run the line through the .... shackle ... and do it over and over until I have around 1' left and then I tie oodles of reef knots in the line until I almost run out of line. 

The next time I'm at the boat, I'll take a picture.

One thing about Dyneema - it feels waxy and knots tend to untie themselves. i have, sometimes, taped or sewn the bitter end to keep it from untying itself.

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Richard Lane]

I wonder if those experiencing clew shackle/lashing failure are still using the knife like slot in the original clew casting and not using a high quality eye bolt through the hole?

Richard Lane

Port Townsend

On Jul 9, 2021, at 1:27 PM, Barbara Melanson <barb...@gmail.com> wrote:

About 10 years ago, upon advice from this group,  I changed from a shackle to a lashing. I used some hi-tech lashing material. After a few uses the lashing suddenly broke while under sail. My husband insisted that we go back to a shackle so that is what we did.  No problem observed since. My shipyard seems to like it that way, but I always wonder if this is the best thing to do. 

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[Don Gill]

The hole in the casting on my 26 is too small to loop line through it more than twice. See pics attached. Maybe a 30 is bigger or some have drilled it out to be bigger??

Best

Don Gill

“White Wing”

NS26U, #196

Burlington, Ontario

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 9, 2021, at 10:46 AM, Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto <ernest...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello all -

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[Bob Neches (Solar Wind, N26C #143)]

Don,

Your pictures of the enlarged hole look incredibly similar to the condition of my boom casting.  In addition to worrying about how many lines could get through it, I worried about chafe on lines running through that worn hole and over the rough casting. 

I gave up, put the shackle back on, and ran my lashings through the shackle.    I figured that: (1) at least it would be easier to inspect for chafe that way; and, (2) if this is as far as the elongation's progressed in a 37 year old boat, it's not an urgent problem.  (Or, at least, not yet.)

At some point, I expect that I'll do one of three alternatives.  I may enlarge the hole and put a chafe-reducing grommet around it.  I might enlarge the hole and put an exactly fitting eyebolt through it, with plates or fender washers on both sides so it can't wobble and wear.  Or, I might throughbolt a plate on the fitting with a suitable ring or an eye welded on it.

If I was good enough at doing lashings and could figure out a way to wrap the lashings around the boom fitting, that might be another solution.  I don't have the skill to see how to do that in a way I'm convinced would work well.

-- Bob

   Solar Wind

   Nonsuch 26C #143

[William Evans]

I used a soft shackle this year. Have not sailed enough yet to  know if it was a good idea.

Bill Evans “companionship “ 30U 465. West River.

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William Evans
“Companionship “ 30U #465
West River MD.

[ed.b...@gmail.com]

Hi Bill,

I lash my sail as others have described, the lash is about 2 inches long.

 

However, I like the idea of a soft shackle.  How did you select your shackle? I have been reluctant to buy one as I don’t know what size/strength to get.  My lashing has too many loops to count, likely stronger than conceivably needed by a factor of 10. 

 

Anyway, any information, even a picture, of your shackle would be helpful.

 

Thanks,

…..Ed

 

Ed and Marlene Brost

SaSeaCat, NS30322

Sarnia Yacht Club

 

 

 

 

From: ina-nonsuch-di...@googlegroups.com <ina-nonsuch-di...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of William Evans
Sent: July 10, 2021 6:34 PM
To: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Length of sail lashing (or more Nonsuch White Magic)

 

I used a soft shackle this year. Have not sailed enough yet to  know if it was a good idea.

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[William Evans]

I am headed down tomorrow. Will take a pic. I just Read about soft shackles in practical sailor ( I think) just have them on boat for no particular reason. Impulse buy.

Bill

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[Mark Powers La Reina 26C Vancouver, B.C.]

For those using or considering using an eye bolt as part of the figging for the clew here is an interesting read.    https://www.e-rigging.com/how-to-select-and-install-eye-bolts

Mark Powers

[Tim in STL]

I was all set to buy one of those fancy SS Swivel Hoist Rings -- until I saw the price  $264.12 !!  I think I will stick with lashing.

Tim in STL

White O’morn NS26U #216

Harbor Point Yacht Club

West Alton, MO

[Mark Powers La Reina 26C Vancouver, B.C.]

It is only money and you will enjoy spending it more than your descendants.

Mark Powers

[newelljc9]

In 2007 I mounted an eye bolt through the the hole in the wishboom with the eye bolt on the underside and nut above to keep the boom as high as possible. Lashing the clew to this smooth eye bolt ring never caused any fraying to the clew lashing in 12 years. By 2007 the round hole had become oval due to wear from the shackle used secure the clew since 1981.

John Newell

Mascouche 26C 1

Toronto

[Bob Neches (Solar Wind, N26C #143)]

Thank you, Mark, for the pointer to e-rigging.   Very informative.

I only partly agree with Mark's comment that money spent today will be enjoyed more than if left to be spent by descendants.  I feel obliged to recognize the possibility that they might enjoy it more.  On the other hand, since we won't be there to see what our descendants do, saving the money for them does risk wasting it on an unverifiable possibility. 

 Here're three alternative plans for following Mark's advice on how to enjoy spending $264.12:

1. Buy one eye bolt, spend $259 elsewhere on your boat, and consider leaving the boat to your descendants.
   
2. Buy 55 eye bolts, use one on your boat, send one to me as a gift, and gift the remaining 53 to other Nonsuch owners.  Use the 54 thank you notes you'll receive in return as starters for a great barbeque this summer, or a wood fire next winter.  (Or, of course, just recycle them.)
3. Donate the entire $264.12 to a good cause, e.g.: The Los Angeles Chapter of the Fund for Balding Nonsuch Sailors Named Bob.
   

-- Bob

   Solar Wind

   Nonsuch 26C #143

[Mark Powers La Reina 26C Vancouver, B.C.]

Putting the money into the boat and then bequeathing the boat to the descendants sound like a good idea. You enjoy the spend and the descendants get an improved boat as a gift. That is what we call a win win. IN this situation there is an English expression that comes to mind: "Bob's your uncle". So Bob, I could be a nephew if you like.

I am wondering if something like this bolt to the casting with the lashings going through the eye might be better than an eye bolt.

98-mm-diamond-padeye

or

5-t-stainless-steel-fixed-padeye-u-bolt

Unfortunately they do not appear to give dimensions and at over 1 pound it is a heft piece of kit. 

or

part-6514

Just mount the bolt so that the U runs for and aft, matching the clew ring.

Mark Powers

[Mariner's Cat V 26C Brentwood Bay BC]

I do not use a lashing, but in many circumstances it is the best solution.  I use a large twisted shackle, 1/2 pin.  The hole in the casting is 9/16" so there is no slop in the mounting point as well  I hammered the opening of the shackle so that it is an interference fit across the casting. The prevents most of the sideways movement so the sail grommet handles the friction.  Been like this for 18 years.  You can accomplish the same thing on a damaged mount by fixing a stainless plate across the top and bottom and with a appropriately sized hole. I would fill the gaps with resin the re drill.

But at the end of the day using 5mm dinghy line to make a lashing is easy peasy....

Thor

[Brian @ SV Serenity]

I re-built my lashing lines this winter, re-using the shackle (from the clew end) from the old lines.  I replaced with 1/4' dyneema (8,000 lbs working load, IIRC).  The lines ended up being about 5 feet long.  Previous line was looped five or six times between the wishbone and the clew grommet, and my intention is to do that and cleat off the end at a handy wishbone-placed cleat.

b.

Brian

SV Serenity

Nonsuch Nereus #003

Pax River, MD

[Brian @ SV Serenity]

I picked up two of these* for Serenity, but haven't yet fitted them (still on the hard).

* https://www.mcmaster.com/eyebolts/material~stainless-steel/material~316-stainless-steel/body-style~with-shoulder/system-of-measurement~metric/thread-size~m12/

b.

Brian

SV Serenity

Nonsuch Nereus #003

Pax River, MD

[Mark Powers La Reina 26C Vancouver, B.C.]

Here is a link to an article from Pratical Sailor on lashings:  lashing-for-strength

If you are considering using dyneema you should also consider using eye splices for the connections. Here are a couple of videos on how to make locking Brummel splices.

   watch  watch

The first is showing the splice with both ends of the line free and the second shows the splice with one end fixed. They are relatively simple to make and are better than knots except that adjusting length is a harder process.

Mark Powers

[Tom Schoenhofer 26C#28 North Star Penetanguishene]

Bob and Don

The hole in the casting looks similar to yours. I tried to clean up the casting edge before I switched to the lashing - the lashing snapped in about one day. I filed and sanded more of the hole edge away but the new lashing snapped in a few days. I'm back to the nice big shackles and all is good. 

If I wanted to make that hole smooth enough to prevent cutting the lashing, there wouldn't be much casting left. I have to bolt a new doubler over this area to reinforce it and then Marks idea of a bolt-on eye may be used.

The three big shackles on the halyard, clew, and tack are identical and are quick release.

Tom

26C 28

Penetang

[Bob Neches (Solar Wind, N26C #143)]

Yeah, I just don't see how to run a lashing through the hole in the casting without chafing risk.  That's why the options seem to me to be sticking with a shackle, keeping the shackle but running a lashing from it rather than directly connecting it to the sail, adding an eyebolt, or adding some other doubling and fastening. 

Mike Quill also sells an excellent replacement boom fitting with a good solution.  I don't play in the financial league that'd make it viable for me, but it's a top-notch solution for those who do.  (Let me take this opportunity to encourage those well-heeled folks to consider donating to the previously mentioned  The Los Angeles Chapter of the Fund for Balding Nonsuch Sailors Named Bob.)

It suddenly dawned on me that, in 37 years of owning six different sailboats, I've never actually encountered a situation where the ability to quickly release the sail clew mattered.   I originally went to the lashing because I was told it was good thing to be able to have a quick release by having something you could cut.  My boating life's been spent in relatively unchallenging conditions.   I trust people with more varied experience to have good reasons.  But, I don't actually know what they are.  Anyone out there ever actually had to release their clew connection in an emergency? 

Even without knowing, I like having added a lashing at the clew.  I don't need the sail that close to the boom end, and it allows me to keep the boom end a bit further back.  I think that gives me fewer unwanted back rubs from the mainsheet.  Emotionally, I like keeping the hardware swinging at the boom end further from my head (although rationally,  I don't think there's a big risk either way).

I noticed that there are some parts that might help with solutions for sale at good prices at the E-Rigging site Mark pointed out: https://www.e-rigging.com/Stainless-Marine-Rigging-Fittings_c_3954.html

-- Bob

   Solar Wind

   Nonsuch 26C #143

[Richard Lane]

I think if I did the eye bolt lashing again that the Wichard 6645 (6600BStrain @0 deg) would be my choice, there is plenty of room on the clew web to mount fore and aft.

Richard Lane

Port Townsend

On Jul 12, 2021, at 7:48 AM, 'Brian @ SV Serenity' via INA Nonsuch Discussion Group <INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



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[Bob Neches (Solar Wind, N26C #143)]

Not recommending this, just asking a question for more knowledgeable folks to answer...

-- Bob

   Solar Wind

   Nonsuch 26C #143

[Mike Jennings]

I have been following this thread for some time and I will have to take a closer look at the way I lashed my sail last year. It was lashed with something that looked like a shoe lace and I replaced it with Dyema and there is no way it is going to break, you could comfortably lift the boat up with it. Might have been an over reaction. You probably cut through it if you had a good, sharp knife.

I want to make a comment about eye bolts. First, they are designed to be used in tension not bending, bending would greatly reduce their load capacity. Also, the eye should be welded closed. 

Mike Jennings.

NS 005 Salt Coats.

Port Moody. BC.

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[Curt Danforth]

I will agree that this is something to pay attention to.  This photo shows what happened while sailing and not tracking how much of the casting had been eaten away by the shackle wearing on the aluminum.

Yes there was a shackle swinging across the deck in the wind as a result.  Of course it took from 1986 to 2019 to wear away ;-).

The yard I use (same as Barbara's ;-) repaired the castings both fore and aft with a thick stainless plate bolted to the casting.

I still use a shackle and had meant to switch over.  Time to get a dynema line run between the sail and the shackle in the casting.

In deference to Ernie and his comment, the crew at Mystic Shipyard has tended to BENEFIT since 1986, the same head rigger.  He does know the boat perhaps better then I do since I have only sailed on it since 1995 :-).

But I learn more from this group every year.  

Curt Danforth

BENEFIT NS 26 #181

Masons Island, Mystic, CT

On Friday, July 9, 2021 at 5:46:51 PM UTC-4 Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto wrote:

Barbara -

Only a lashing should be used so that, if necessary to save the sail or the boat (or you), it can break. On a Nonsuch, sorry, it should be a lashing. If a shackle breaks (as mine did) it can take out your eye, your face or your head. And (almost forgot), a lashing makes a far more flexible joint than a steel shackle.

Your shipyard may like a shackle (because it sure looks like a place where a shackle could live) but, with respect, they know less about Nonsuches than you or your husband or all of us.

All of that said, I use a length of 3/16ths Dyneema that is probably too strong and wouldn't break. No good, frankly. Others may (hopefully) chime in with the correct sized lo-stretch non-Dyneema line that should actually be used.

But, a shackle ?? Nope, never.

Ernie A. in Toronto

On Friday, July 9, 2021 at 4:27:16 PM UTC-4 barb...@gmail.com wrote:

About 10 years ago, upon advice from this group,  I changed from a shackle to a lashing. I used some hi-tech lashing material. After a few uses the lashing suddenly broke while under sail. My husband insisted that we go back to a shackle so that is what we did.  No problem observed since. My shipyard seems to like it that way, but I always wonder if this is the best thing to do. 

Barbara Melanson

Gimlet II 33 14

Groton Long Point, CT

[Elizabeth Powers]

See practical-sailor.com  Lashing for strength to see how to calculate the number of wraps anyhow to tie off to evenly distribute the load over all strands.

Rob Powers

Respite 26C #50

Sidney BC

[Brian @ SV Serenity]

Mark,

I can't watch the videos from work, but I followed the one from Sailing Wisdom (the clearest explanation I found) to put in a locking Brummel on one end of the line.  Great minds!

b.

Brian

SV Serenity

Nonsuch Nereus #003

Pax River MD

[Terence Cutts]

I’m happy to report my casting is in good shape, tight and round. I did buy a M10 “eye” bolt however so I can lash. But I don’t believe I have room to lash. I can’t If I bring my choker back any further to accommodate a lash. Upon further investigation my sail is literally ripping my mast track off from the mast. I had to add stainless steel gear clamps to assist in preventing this further. I don’t think I have the 4” of space to lash. By adding another 4-6” of lashing chord to an eye bolt the front of wishbone will be up against the mast when tightening the sail.

Could it be my sail is too long at the base? Has it stretched over the years? 

Am I totally trimming incorrectly? Ripping my sail track off the mast every time I tighten the choker?

Terry & Clarise

30U #404

Phoenix - Toronto

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[Bob Illingworth]

As you flatten the sail using the choker the foot of the sail will be subject to tension but this force is transmitted through the tack of the sail to the mast via a stainless steel strap which wraps around the mast or sometimes an aluminium casting which is firmly fixed to the mast.  The sail slides once the sail is hoisted should not be under so much tension as to start pulling the sail track off the mast.  In your photograph, the fully furled sailed can be seen to be pulling the sail track away from the mast but when furled like this there should be no tension in the sail and the choker should be loose.  The foot of your sail may have stretched which is why there appears to be insufficient room for it to be lashed to the boom.

The braiding which holds the sail to the sail track slides look in very good condition for an elderly sail and what little we can see of the sail looks good too.  It’s possible that the sail was made longer than specified in the owners’ manual which is 24ft (or 7.315m)

 

Bob Illingworth

Nonsuch Luck 30U #367 (GBR1262T)

Moored Brightlingsea, Essex, UK; cruising the rivers of East Anglia, and, the North Sea.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/6B095823-327E-4555-B9F4-97B08D31A335%40gmail.com.

[Terence Cutts]

Thanks Bob, I’ll will measure and take a few pics when the sail is up. You’re right all seems to be in good shape except for this mast rail business 

Terry and Clarise

30U #404

Phoenix - Toronto

On Jul 14, 2021, at 8:35 AM, Bob Illingworth <bobby.il...@gmail.com> wrote:

 [EXT]

As you flatten the sail using the choker the foot of the sail will be subject to tension but this force is transmitted through the tack of the sail to the mast via a stainless steel strap which wraps around the mast or sometimes an aluminium casting which is firmly fixed to the mast.  The sail slides once the sail is hoisted should not be under so much tension as to start pulling the sail track off the mast.  In your photograph, the fully furled sailed can be seen to be pulling the sail track away from the mast but when furled like this there should be no tension in the sail and the choker should be loose.  The foot of your sail may have stretched which is why there appears to be insufficient room for it to be lashed to the boom.

The braiding which holds the sail to the sail track slides look in very good condition for an elderly sail and what little we can see of the sail looks good too.  It’s possible that the sail was made longer than specified in the owners’ manual which is 24ft (or 7.315m)

 

Bob Illingworth

Nonsuch Luck 30U #367 (GBR1262T)

Moored Brightlingsea, Essex, UK; cruising the rivers of East Anglia, and, the North Sea.

 

 

From: ina-nonsuch-di...@googlegroups.com <ina-nonsuch-di...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Terence Cutts
Sent: 14 July 2021 12:28
To: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Length of sail lashing

 

I’m happy to report my casting is in good shape, tight and round. I did buy a M10 “eye” bolt however so I can lash. But I don’t believe I have room to lash. I can’t If I bring my choker back any further to accommodate a lash. Upon further investigation my sail is literally ripping my mast track off from the mast. I had to add stainless steel gear clamps to assist in preventing this further. I don’t think I have the 4” of space to lash. By adding another 4-6” of lashing chord to an eye bolt the front of wishbone will be up against the mast when tightening the sail.

Could it be my sail is too long at the base? Has it stretched over the years? 

Am I totally trimming incorrectly? Ripping my sail track off the mast every time I tighten the choker?

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To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/000001d778ac%24c1e5cd50%2445b167f0%24%40gmail.com.

[Herb Huber]

Terrance, 

When I purchased my Nonsuch there were too very long shackles joining the sail to the tack fitting on the mast. That concerned me in that there would therefore be too much pressure on the sail track above. I don't know if your tack attachment will allow this, but the simple fix for me was to shorten that tack attachment point. 

I trim the foot on my sail to where it is drum tight & it has not stretched in 16 years. My sail was built by Botterel some 20 years ago using #10 Dacron and those factors may also play a part.

Herb G. Huber, MISTOFFELEES 30C#91, Lake Huron Nonsuch Association, Point Edward, Ontario

[Mariner's Cat V 26C Brentwood Bay BC]

The foot of my sail has a cord stitched in place and all the tension is carried by the cord.

[Tom Schoenhofer 26C#28 North Star Penetanguishene]

Hi Terrence

The left photo showing the track pulled away doesn't show the tack shackle but someone else mentioned that if the tack is not tight to the mast there can be too much tension of the lower slide(s).

This problem is made worse when reefed if the reef tack(s) are not properly tight to the mast. Check that your tack reef lines are run correctly.

 There was a recent thread on this subject. In the search line at the top of this page type:    Reefing For The First Time.

Tom

26C #28

Penetanguishene

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

Terrence -

I totally agree with Tom regarding how tight the sail's tack should be to the mast, whether reefed or not. I've attached a photo that I took of the tack and 1st reef of my sail. But, this time, I cropped out the decades-old sheaves that could use replacements ......

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Tim in STL]

Hi Ernie, I see that you have the reefing line tied to the ring at the reef point rather than the ring at the mast.  I guess that gives you a 3:1 purchase rather than the 2:1 if it is tied to the mast.  Does the knot at the ring crate more friction ?  I hav just sewn up that ring and web arrangement for Whit O'morn and I was going to  tie the line to the ring on the mast.

Tim in STL

White O’morn NS26U #216

Harbor Point Yacht Club

West Alton, MO

[Richard Lane]

The pictured snug tack reef removes the vaunted reefing from the cockpit advantage of a Nonsuch. Of course my use of a hook Cunningham/Tack line also requires leaving the cockpit.

Dick Lane

NS26c #35 Swoose

Port Townsend

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/194414a7-3947-4860-9c70-4428e8cdbea6n%40googlegroups.com.

[Terence Cutts]

Thanks Ernie, where is your Nonsuch kept?

I’m at OHM, I would love to show you mine if you can show me yours.

Terry and Clarise

30U #404

Phoenix - Toronto

On Jul 16, 2021, at 12:00 PM, Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto <ernest...@gmail.com> wrote:

Terrence -

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/2e1cae33-1fc8-461b-898d-49e61a6223f0n%40googlegroups.com.

<TACK diagram.pdf>

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

Tim and Dick -

With respect, fellas, you are both incorrect. To the best of my knowledge, my reefing setup is "by the book". Perhaps the photo is unclear.

Both 1st and 2nd reef lines are tied, not to the reef point (an O ring) on the sail but to the correct point on the mast. The 1st tack reef line goes through the port side (1st reef or lower) O ring, straight down to the block and straight back to the cockpit. The 2nd line (green and white) is tied to the mast and goes through the 2nd reef point (the higher O ring), on the starboard side, back to another block, and back to the cockpit. 

Now that I look again, yes, the photo IS confusing. 

Dick - what you are seeing is the result of me pulling, like hell, on the 1st tack reefing line (from the safety and comfort of the cockpit). I have managed to pull hard enough such that line stops only when it reaches the BOWLINE that is used to tie it to the mast. There is only one knot in the photo. I am happiest when that tack cringle is real tight to the mast (just like the tack of the sail). I must say that I am also happiest when I get the clew reef lines as tight as reasonably possible such that the line from the pad eye (where it's attached to the back of the boom) is as straight as possible as it passes through the clew of the sail and heads into the cheek block on the other side of the boom i.e. not a VEE.

All four of my reef lines are easy pulls (aided by hoisting the boom with the topping lift and totally easing the choker). My boat is little - an NS22. I don't need to throw any of these lines on a winch but I do realize that this is, sometimes, required on larger Nonsuches.

Hope that clarifies this a little !!

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

Dick -

Furthermore, I covet your Cunningham as this is something that I've always wanted. I may get a local sailmaker to put one in this winter but I'd rig it with line and some "interesting" set-up using slightly thinner but strong line and two small triple-sheave blocks (to achieve a big mechanical advantage). It would be independent, so to speak, and not require a winch or get in the way, etc. I wouldn't use a hook and wouldn't need it with this 6:1 block setup and wouldn't have to go to the mast.

Ernie A. in Toronto