Rudder position indicator

[isotek ventura]

Hi all,

I'm sure I'm not alone in being vexed with anxiety when backing out of your slip with next to no speed and many expensive boats in teasing proximity.

In the pre-departure checklist, I dutifully look over the transom, and through the gap in the swim platform to hopefully see the top of the rudder to benchmark "center". Nonetheless, after cast-off, there are a few serpentine rear moves required to get to open water.

I've done this 100 times, and it's still the most stressful part of the journey.

Knowing the actual rudder position at any given moment would be immensely helpful.

"Am I hard to port, or only half way?, Am I straight, or half to starboard?"

Alas, rudder position indicators do exist.

I'm looking for experiences from this august body for best practices.

My first quest has turned up a few different devices. One of which requires no electricity, no drilling through the cockpit or crawling through to the rudder tube for installation.

Questions:

Has any one used one of these?

Are there other ideas"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5t3R-SnYSE

Cheers,

Mike and Ashley Read

NautiGirl N26C

Bath, Ontario / Ventura, California

[Joe Valinoti]

My wheel is marked with the center position.  Too be sure of where it is, before, I get underway, I move it back and forth to make sure it’s centered

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

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[Brian Cayer]

I like Joe V have my wheel marked with rope at center but in the rush of the moment it’s nice to have another visual indicator. I was contemplating cutting a little window covered with plexiglass to see the rudder post position thru the removable cap there but this seems easier. No need to turn around.

Brian Cayer

Spirit~Wind

 

Brian Cayer

On Dec 23, 2024, at 8:49 AM, Joe Valinoti <joes...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Brian M. Godfrey]

   My wheel has some fancy knotwork at the center position.  I find that very handy and intuitive.
   I don't think that device in the link would work on my boat because the binnacle is pretty far back and the wheel hub is pretty close to my (admittedly oversize) belly.  I don't think I'd ever be able to see it.  Besides, the wind is always different and I'm not sure what an indicator like that would add.  Most of my steering while backing out is dynamic and in response to how the boat is moving that day.  I find that I can usually back out neatly with the wheel hard over to starboard to counteract the prop walk, gradually straightening out as I gain speed, then if the wind is from the south I sometimes have to hold my breath hoping not to hit the piling at the end of the finger with my bow pulpit, and then sometimes when the wind is from the north I have to give up and back all the way out of the fairway because of weathervaning.  At least I can see cross-traffic better when that happens.
   But yeah, doing it with all of those expensive boats around can be stressful.  My solution to that is to go out on weekdays when the only people around seem to be those doing maintenance on the expensive boats.

--Brian M. Godfrey
  Vela, NS33 #77, San Diego
  br...@wildbirdshop.com

[Rob Cohen "Soave" NS33 Westport, CT]

Hi Mike & Ashley,

Give it time... eventually it will be 2nd nature and you won't have to think about it.  A piece of tape at the top of the wheel to get oriented initially is all you'll need. 

I feel your frustration, this was my first season with Soave, when steering backwards my muscle memory is from 45 years of tiller steering is getting in my way..

My plan is to continue to use vinyl tape to mark the "top" of Soave's wheel ( rudder is straight ) and continue to encourage my old brain to develop new steering instincts. 

It will nice when steering with the wheel becomes as natural as the tiller was.

Good luck,

Rob Cohen

s/v SOAVE

NS33 #009

Westport, CT

[isotek ventura]

Hi,

Thank you for the advice.

I do have my wheel marked of with tape as most do, to indicate center.

However,...the tape centered on the binnacle also occurs at 2/3rds to port and again at 2/3rds to starboard, as the wheel goes through 2.5 revs either way.

Sure,...this is easy to tell if you are already moving at 2 knots....but no so easy if the hull is still in the water, transitioning between forward and reverse.

The situation is analogous to parallel parking.

Yes, a tiller would fix all this, but that would nix my cocktail table, and we know there's no chance of that. Priorities, right?

So, I renew my appeal to those who may have shared the same pain and found salvation in the same simple device.

Cheers,

Mike and Ashley Read

NautiGirl N26C

Bath, Ontario / Ventura, California

[alst...@aol.com]

Hi Mike & Ashley;

I don’t know of any device that would give you the answer you want at any given moment.  FWIW, when heading out and before I cast off, I always turn the wheel full to port and then back to centre. That tells me pretty much what I need to know as far as rudder position.  After that anything can happen, as you have witnessed.  On a personal note, I’m guessing you guys are sipping cocktails in the shade, while we watch the snow as it slowly buried us alive.  Merry Christmas, look forward to seeing you in the spring !

Alan Steward,

30 C #144 MagnifiCat,

Loyalist Cove Marina,

Bath, Ontario

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[Bruce Clark]

Interesting question that I had not thought about. I also have the king spoke marked with a Turk’s Head knot. I just go by feel of the boat and visual clues. Nonsuchs handle very well in reverse compared to a lot of boats. Wheel position and judicious use of throttle really do the job.

Bruce Clark

Nonsuch 30, ’Nonsuch’

Whiby YC, Lake Ontario

On Dec 23, 2024, at 6:42 AM, isotek ventura <isotek...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi all,

I'm sure I'm not alone in being vexed with anxiety when backing out of your slip with next to no speed and many expensive boats in teasing proximity.

In the pre-departure checklist, I dutifully look over the transom, and through the gap in the swim platform to hopefully see the top of the rudder to benchmark "center". Nonetheless, after cast-off, there are a few serpentine rear moves required to get to open water.

I've done this 100 times, and it's still the most stressful part of the journey.

Knowing the actual rudder position at any given moment would be immensely helpful.

"Am I hard to port, or only half way?, Am I straight, or half to starboard?"

Alas, rudder position indicators do exist.

I'm looking for experiences from this august body for best practices.

My first quest has turned up a few different devices. One of which requires no electricity, no drilling through the cockpit or crawling through to the rudder tube for installation.

Questions:

Has any one used one of these?

Are there other ideas"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5t3R-SnYSE

<Screenshot 2024-12-23 063354.jpg>

Cheers,

Mike and Ashley Read

NautiGirl N26C

Bath, Ontario / Ventura, California

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<Screenshot 2024-12-23 063354.jpg>

[Sprio]

I have to admit that I agree with Isotek Ventura. My previous boat had a tiller and if I had my way, I would convert the Nonsuch into a tiller steered yacht as well. It is too much work and I may regret it one day so for now I have to get used to the wheel.

My problem with the rudder position was solved as a bonus when I installed an autopilot. The autopilot indicates the rudder position in standby mode!
The device that Ventura suggests to solve the problem is clever and simple. The problem seems to me that it cannot be read from the rudder position of a sailboat.

Perhaps it would be an idea to make an audible rudder position device. Something that beeps differently with the rudder to starboard as with the rudder to port. The beep can be made slower or faster as the rudder is centered. We can also make it louder as the angle of the rudder increases.
An Arduino, an off the shelf rudder position potentiometer and a buzzer, that is all that is needed. Maybe a switch to turn the device on at times when it is really needed. I would be happy to write the Arduino software for you.

mark h

n36#25 Cotton Eye Joe

netherlands, europe

[John Gialanella]

I use same approach as Joe.  A good winter project was to wrap my wheel.  I left a "dangly knot" to mark the rudder's center position. (by my left hand in the photo) Can "feel" it without having to look.

[Bob Neches (Me Gusta, Nonsuch 26U #233)]

A potential problem with Nonsuch owners using the Davis rudder position indicator -- the picture Mike Read posted shows it attached to a powerboat rudder.  I took a picture of my wheel to confirm my intuition that the wheel lock nut isn't shaped to be very friendly to a robust stick-on attachment.

The nut has a relatively small area, and its face is curved.

Sadly, this picture also illustrates that I have a lot of deferred cleaning and polishing that I have to get back on top of.

-- Bob

   Me Gusta

   Nonsuch e26U #233

   Marina del Rey, California

[isotek ventura]

Hi Bob,

You have pointed out a real and anticipated issue. Thus, I am going to pay for a criminally overpriced Edson product (aren't they all), as I regularly remove my wheel for more cockpit space.....and less regularly remember to put it back on before backing out.

I'll send pics and video upon completion in June. (I'm in Ventura until then.)

Cheers,

Mike and Ashley Read

NautiGirl N26C

Bath, Ontario / Ventura, California

[Thor Powell]

Like many I have a piece of tape at "top dead centre". and turn the wheel from side to side before engine start.  Similar to a control check when flying.  Not a bad idea to male sure the wheel works before you start out. 

The Edson wheel  nut is not cheap and possibly; a loral machine shop could do it for less...

[isotek ventura]

Hi all,

I thought I'd take another stab at explaining why I'm doing this.

I trust we all have some sort of mark on our wheel that suggests when the rudder is straight.......however, this mark is only right 1/3rd of the time.....

I'll explain.

Yes, in your pre-departure checklist, you've glanced over the transom and re-affirmed that your wheel mark is at 12 o'clock,  and you can see your rudder blade is straight. Wonderful!

The Westerbeke is warmed up and ready to go.....

Your slip gives 20' of room before you hit the beautiful boats behind you.

As you all have experienced, your rudder is meaningless at 0-1 knots.....so, you have to but on your big boy pants, and goose the throttle to quickly get enough speed where the rudder will bite to avoid catastrophe.

Yes, a Nonsuch will turn on a dime...but only if you have enough way on.

So, the route requires getting enough speed from 0-2 knots...within 20' to turn 90 degrees, backing out to port, then, another 90 degree turn to starboard (in reverse) to straighten out for the blast forward to get to open water. I'm not alone. There are 3 other Nonsuch's on my pier that suffer a similar fate. (Ted, Al, Bert)...but then they are just better keeled than I, right? (certainly more seasoned)

... the matter is really about that your wheel goes hard over 1.5 revolutions to hit "max port" and 3 revolutions to go all the way to "max starboard" as your transom wiggles it's way at 1 knot backwards. So, you can quite quickly find yourself after doing 2 very sharp turns at slow speed in a tight space...and migrating from reverse to forward....that your "wheel center tape" is centered...but the rudder is actually 2/3rds port, or starboard.

At 2 knots of speed, this is all easily felt and managed. At 0.5 knots........not so much.

You want to be sure of your rudder angle before you "goose" the throttle.

Sooooo, my quest was to find a cheap solution to help validate actual rudder angle at veeeery low speeds.

Thanks all for bending your mind around this.

Cheers,

Mike and Ashley Read

NautiGirl N26C

Bath, Ontario / Ventura, California

[Joe Valinoti]

Of course the other option is to back in and not have any of those problems.  However, to do that one must practice and learn how to back up a sailboat.

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

~~~~~(\_ ~(\_ ~(\_~~~~~~~~~~

From: isotek ventura

Sent: Friday, January 3, 2025 8:35 PM

To: INA Nonsuch Discussion Group

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[BRIAN CAYER]

Yes I agree with Isotek about the confusion caused by the 1/3 correct deal on our boats wheels and plan on getting some visual solution I can depend on. That being said I would also say that having to back out to port is a distinct advantage because a burst of throttle once the boat moves far enough out of the slip will kick your stern to port and allow you to back down the fairway enough to shift to neutral then give the prop a burst of speed in forward will kick the bow to starboard. (With a right hand prop anyway) The last three slips I had were a terror because I had to back into the fairway to starboard and the prop wash was fighting me all the way. Also although I have not perfected the exercise you can turn the boat 360 deg in 1&1/2 boat lengths using the prop wash and prop walk. I look forward to learning to do that with out breaking out in a sweat.

Brian Cayer

Spirit~Wind

N30U 419

Westbrook, Ct

On Jan 3, 2025, at 8:53 PM, Joe Valinoti <joes...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Rob Cohen "Soave" NS33 Westport, CT]

Mike & Ashley,

Seems like you have a workable plan for installing the Davis wheel gizmo.  Let us know how it goes.

I understand the thrill of discovery one feels when they overcome a challenge.  I hope the rudder position indicator is indeed the missing ingredient in your quest.

If you are still considering other ideas the best advice I can offer is.... If there are three other Nonsuch boats in the marina, that are able to reliably maneuver in similar a situation, copy them. Or ask them to come aboard and help you work out a strategy for maneuvering.  If your prop is reversed or a different style, their strategy may not work for you... but chances are your boat has the same maneuvering properties.

I've been working on improving my close quarters maneuvering skills also.  This was my first season with a wheel (except charters) and my 35 years of tiller experience seems to be working against me.  I feel like a klutz backing up, and now I feel empathy for folks that would ask me to backup their boat trailers in tight situations.  Backing a trailer is a practiced skill also.... once it clicks the pressure evaporates.  I hope the same is true with backing Soave.

The thing that seems to be helping me the most with Soave is practice and working to understand the forces in play.  The more practice, the more relaxed I feel, and when I am relaxed I'm a better helmsman.  The following is based on my experience with Soave and my limited understanding of the maneuvering challenge you are working on. 

Maneuvering in tight quarters requires processing lots of inputs and prioritizing them... my mind also sometimes looses track of important details like rudder position, I understand the challenge.  

Things that are helping me :

• Accept that some maneuvering strategies are difficult or impossible on some boats.  Soave seems to have more prop walk than other boats in our club, this is a blessing when walk complements the maneuver I'm trying to make ( I look like a wiz ).... BUT I don't fight the walk, I avoid situations when it works against me, and switch to a different maneuver strategy as Joe mentioned.  Sometimes wind direction or speed will complicate a maneuver and make it MUCH more difficult and make alternatives look MUCH better.
• Unless you have lots of wind or current, 2 knots is pretty fast for close quarters maneuvers.  It's about 3.5 feet per sec.  Soave steers pretty well at .75 - 1.0  knots.  If I resist the temptation to over steer, she carries enough momentum to make a 90º turn in less than a boat length at 1 knot with momentum to spare. At 1 knot Soave travels a boat length in about about a minute.  Nothing needs to happen fast.  For Soave, wind is an important factor.
• Accelerating from standing to 2 knots in 20 feet takes a lot of power... that is hard to control.  I'm not sure Soave could do that without being near full throttle, something that would turn a lot of heads on our dock and probably attract some "help".
• Brian's suggestion of working to master the standing turn is a great idea.  At our club we have a rigging dock for the one-design boats that daysail.  It's well padded and provides a forgiving point of reference to maneuver near.  During the weekdays it's more private so you won't have as big a peanut gallery.  Practice helped me gain confidence and really understand how Soave responds to prop wash and walk.
• I don't know the NS26, but on Soave if the helm is hard over, her rudder is more of a brake than a steering device.  At slow speeds Soave's rudder can stall.  She steers better with a lighter touch that is proportional to speed.  If the rudder stalls you will feel it,  reestablish flow by moving the rudder a bit to center, when it grabs you will feel the boat turn again.  
• Having boats 20 feet off your stern seems unreasonably tight, check that measurement.  I'll bet it feels like 20', but is actually more.  Knowing the actual measurement will help you plan ahead.  The boats behind Soave look really close when I'm maneuvering.... in reality they are 55 feet away.
• In our neck of the woods, 1.5 boat lengths is the absolute minimum maneuvering space, marina's usually provide closer to 2 boat lengths to keep bumps to a minimum... for  NautiGirl 1.5 boat lengths would be high 30's.  Maybe find dockage with more favorable conditions, till you are more comfortable maneuvering in tight spaces?  It mIght cost more, but the added enjoyment and reduced pressure would be worth it to me.
• I have an auto pilot that shows rudder angle on my chart plotter.  I don't find it particularly useful while maneuvering because it is small and takes time to interpret.  I prefer counting the wheel turns and then unwinding the count when I complete my turn.  If I'm too choked to count , I need to relax... and I realize I haven't practiced enough to steer with confidence.  For me, counting to 3 and remembering the count is a proxy for how relaxed I am.

Happy New Year !  Enjoy the 2025 sailing season !

Rob Cohen

s/v SOAVE

NS33 #009

Westport, CT

[Thor Powell]

At low speed prop walk can negate rudder authority .This effect is increased in reverse as prop wash does not increase the laminar flow past the rudder.  Once the boat has motion in reverse putting the engine in neutral will negate the prop talk and allow the rudder to maintain control.  

I leave the slip by giving a short application of power and as the boat moves in reverse I shift into neutral to begin the turn . The boat will glide through the turn . You need enough motion to overcome wind or current at the time.   Practise the manoeuvre  a couple of times in calm conditions and open water.

The 26 has a good sized rudder that  will turn the boat in a very tight radius. 

On Monday, December 23, 2024 at 3:42:06 a.m. UTC-8 isotek...@gmail.com wrote:

[Captain Greg]

I think everyone agrees its handy to know where your rudder is aimed especially when in the tight confines of a marina. I do have a turk's head tied on the wheel marking straight ahead. It is correct only sometimes, as others have pointed out. 

As I am readying Misty Cat for launch again (after a few years on the hard) I plan to resolve an old issue finally. I installed a Raymarine ST4000 wheelpilot many years ago and I got the optional rudder position sensor for it. As it turned out, that sensor arm only swings 60º to either side of centre. On Misty Cat the rudder swings way past that, almost to 90º. After I mocked up the sensor installation rig to test it, when I turned the wheel past 60º rudder angle, it ripped the sensor right off its cardboard and tape mount. So while I've had a well-operating autopilot for years, I've not had the advantage of the rudder position sensor. During my current renewal project I am going to move the rudder stops so the rudder will only swing 60º so I can install the sensor properly. As a result I'll see rudder position on the Autopilot head as long it's in standby or auto mode. 

I'm surprised I had not heard about this issue (sensor incompatibility) from any other Nonsuch owners given how popular the wheel pilots seem to be, and wondering if other Nonsuches have such a wide rudder swing as mine does. It seems quite unnecessary.

Pic attached is the installation diagram for the rudder position sensor.

Happy New Year all!

Greg Silver

Misty Cat 26C #121

St. Peter's, Cape Breton, 

Nova Scotia

[Bob Neches (Me Gusta, Nonsuch 26U #233)]

Interesting, Greg.

I always had the impression that there were supposed to be fairly robust stoppers in place to prevent the rudder from turning too far.  Even 60 degrees sounds a bit excessive; I'd think that the rudder would likely stall and function only as a brake at that angle.

-- Bob

   Me Gusta

   Nonsuch e26U #233

[Mark Powers La Reina 26C Vancouver, B.C.]

Mike,

It seems your 26 has different gearing/gear ratio for the steering on mine, or your turn stops are set much further out than mine. I checked today and from center to full stop in either direction is just under one full turn so slightly less than two turns stop to stop. I have a Turk’s head to mark dead ahead and two different colours of handlebar wrap around the wheel. Between the Turk’s head and two colours I generally know where the rudder is. 

Mark Powers

[Mike Jennings]

After the chain jumped off the sprocket I checked out my steering geometry. Reverse engineering it, it seemed like the system was set up for one turn of the wheel maximum (without the chain jumping off the sprocket) and that equals 45° rudder angle.

The original stops were somewhat flimsy cables. Fortunately the failure occurred as we were backing out of the dock and the self launching fenders saved the day.

Mike Jennings.

NS30 005 Chancy.

Port Moody, BC.

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[isotek ventura]

Hi Mark,

Very interesting. It must be the stops set differently. I definitely have 1.5 rotations either way of dead center.

I do appreciate the acute turning radius when approaching a mooring ball at slow speeds, with Master and Commander at the bow.

Cheers,

Mike and Ashley Read

NautiGirl N26C

Bath, Ontario / Ventura, California

[Ted E]

Hi Mike

It’s time to offer my comment on the concern raised. Along with Al (who has already commented) and Bert (who has a 22 with outboard) we are Mike’s slip mates in Bath. Purrfection our 26U came with a 2 bladed Perfect Pitch composite prop. Maneuvering in the harbor was a challenging exercise. Fortunately before fall haul that first year out the composite prop disintegrated and is on the bottom at our former club.

After a winter of research I purchased a 3 bladed feathering prop. Now reverse and forward maneuvers are more instantaneous. Yes knowing the precise location of the rudder would be nice but the feathering prop has vastly improved the flow over the rudder, thus control. It has been 12 years now and I can truly say the 3 bladed feathering prop purchase has been one of the best safety improvements we have made. Just ask my first mate.

Also I must admit we are fair weather sailors and are located in a very protected harbor so docking and departing have become predictable. If we are wind challenged we just back all the way out of our aisle.

Happy New Year

Ted Eedson

Purrfection 26U #232

Sailing out of Loyalist Cove Marina, Lake Ontario at Bath.

[Bruce Clark]

One thing that has not been mentioned here is that not all of our boats are thesame. This is partly due to the model, although hull forms are similar, but also the engine and very much the propeller. My ancient 30 has a smallish Volvo with a sail drive and a folding prop. The result is the boat reacts differently than even a newer 30 with more power, a shaft drive, and a fixed or feathering prop. I guess what I am saying is that every boat has its own strengths and challenges. A very useful skill, that requires prop walk is practicing turning while the boat stays pretty much fixed in place. This only works in one direction because you use prop walk and that only works in one direction. With my boat I can turn to the left by  turning the wheel far to the left and goosing the power in forward for only about two seconds. Slow throttle for two seconds before switching gears - be nice to your transmission. Then switch to reverse and goose again for two seconds or so. Rinse and repeat and the boat will turn on the spot. I have found it works best if the wheel is not right against the stop, perhaps one spoke off the stop. No specific evidence, but I think when the wheel is hard owner the water flow over the rudder stalls.

The OP should practice away from the dock (do it near a nav buoy so you can see how you are doing) and figure out which direction you can go. If this is wrong direction your only choice is to change docks if possible, from say facing east to facing west.

Bruce Clark

Nonsuch 30, ’Nonsuch’

Whitby YC, Lake Ontario 

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[Rob Cohen]

Well Said Bruce.  

I was glad to hear about the other Nonsuch sailors in the OPs marina, he is lucky to have the benefit of their experience to help him sort out any boat issues.  

I admit to trying my share of gizmos over the years that promised to solve problems.  None of them provided as much lasting value as the things I learned from other sailors, or taught myself out on the water.

Great to have a group like this to bounce ideas around. 

--

Rob Cohen

s/v SOAVE

NS33 #009

Westport, CT

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[newelljc9]

Mascouche has a Turk's head to mark the centre position of the wheel. I too check the rudder before leaving a tricky dock that has a floating dock with moorings a few feet behind my dock. The photo just shows the Turks head in the 1 o'clock position. Jorgen Moller owner of Pondus #33 appears happy at the helm.

It is not onerous to visibly check the position of the rudder since it is visible when looking over the counter.

John Newell

Mascouche NS26 C1

Toronto

Sorry, I do not have a close up of the Turk's Head.

On Monday, December 23, 2024 at 6:42:06 AM UTC-5 isotek ventura wrote:

Hi all,

[Eric Larsen]

Here's how the Davis Indicator is mounted on Felix.  I don't know if the "adapter" was purchased or hobbled together.  It appears to be made of HDPE.  

I just happened to remember this thread when on the boat yesterday so snapped a few pics...

Eric Larsen

S/V Felix 1981 30C #115

Olympia, WA

[isotek ventura]

AAAAh, Thank you!

Finally someone who has used one!

Hi Erik,

Do you find it useful?

Cheers,

Mike and Ashley Read

NautiGirl N26C

Bath, Ontario / Ventura, California

[Eric Larsen]

Yes, I find it helpful.  While I'm used to a helm without that information, having it makes knowing rudder position a one-glance operation. 

I don't know of a downside to it!