Hoisting the main solo — jumping the halyard + cam cleat?

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Robin Bigio

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Oct 23, 2022, 11:06:39 PM10/23/22
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Hi folks,

I like to raise my main by jumping the halyard at the mast while someone pulls it in around the main winch on the cabin top (usually my 9 yo kid). The main is up in less than 2min, and then I only need a couple of turns on the winch

I would love to do this on even when I am on my own instead of hoisting from the cockpit which takes forever.

I am curious if anyone has experimented with any mast systems that enable them to:
  1. Jump the halyard and somehow temporarily attach it at the foot of the mast
  2. Go back to the cockpit and pull all the line in
  3. Crank the final  few inches on the main
The one idea I've had was to attach a cam cleat on the mast inline the the halyard exit.

Any ideas, pictures or thoughts would be super welcome!

Robin B.
ZOE, 30U #307
SF Bay, CA

Robin Bigio

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Oct 23, 2022, 11:28:35 PM10/23/22
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Found this which seems really promising: https://youtu.be/ats0voB-Zkg?t=412

Robin B.
ZOE, 30U #307
SF Bay, CA

Robin Bigio

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Oct 23, 2022, 11:43:30 PM10/23/22
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And one final idea, which is a lateral cleat. I can imagine installing it offset from the halyard path, so that once one pulls the line through it comes undone from the clear.



On Sun, Oct 23, 2022 at 8:28 PM, Robin Bigio <robin...@gmail.com> wrote:
Found this which seems really promising: https://youtu.be/ats0voB-Zkg?t=412

Robin B.
ZOE, 30U #307
SF Bay, CA

Robin Bigio

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Oct 23, 2022, 11:53:29 PM10/23/22
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This is how it would work:

  1. Jump the halyard and then cleat it
  2. Pull the line in the cockpit
  3. Winch the final portion and the line comes off the lateral cleat



On Sun, Oct 23, 2022 at 8:43 PM, Robin Bigio <robin...@gmail.com> wrote:
And one final idea, which is a lateral cleat. I can imagine installing it offset from the halyard path, so that once one pulls the line through it comes undone from the clear.



Mike Jennings

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Oct 24, 2022, 12:03:49 AM10/24/22
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Chancy came with this arrangement.

I have read all the posts about hoisting the main with interest but the specs. for the Winchrite on Chancy are as follows.

78 years old. 188 lbs. Quadrouple Bypass and two new hips (recommended).

This old crock raises the sail to within about 6’ by hand, to within 1’ on the winch in high and singing tight in low.

I haven’t timed it but I doubt if it takes more than 2 minutes.

I am told that strength exercise is very important at my age and this is a good strength workout that gives me great pleasure.

My only concern is the wear on the gelcoat when hauling by hand. I could stand on the cockpit seat but prefer to be in the cockpit. If anyone has a good solution to this please let me know.



All the best.

Mike Jennings.
NS005 Chancy. Port Moody BC.

On Oct 23, 2022, at 8:28 PM, Robin Bigio <robin...@gmail.com> wrote:

Found this which seems really promising: https://youtu.be/ats0voB-Zkg?t=412

Robin B.
ZOE, 30U #307
SF Bay, CA

On Sun, Oct 23, 2022 at 8:06 PM, Robin Bigio <robin...@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi folks,

I like to raise my main by jumping the halyard at the mast while someone pulls it in around the main winch on the cabin top (usually my 9 yo kid). The main is up in less than 2min, and then I only need a couple of turns on the winch

I would love to do this on even when I am on my own instead of hoisting from the cockpit which takes forever.

I am curious if anyone has experimented with any mast systems that enable them to:
  1. Jump the halyard and somehow temporarily attach it at the foot of the mast
  2. Go back to the cockpit and pull all the line in
  3. Crank the final  few inches on the main
The one idea I've had was to attach a cam cleat on the mast inline the the halyard exit.

Any ideas, pictures or thoughts would be super welcome!

Robin B.
ZOE, 30U #307
SF Bay, CA



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Ken Dakin

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Oct 24, 2022, 7:50:20 AM10/24/22
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Don’t drill and tap holes in the mast for the cleat. I believe Hinterhoeller advised against making holes for 7 to 10 ft above deck as this is where forces on the mast are greatest under load. Figure out a way to mount the cleat with big gear clamps underlain by neoprene belt for galvanic isolation and grip.

Ken Dakin
NS 33 #7
Sashay
Kingston ON
Sent from my iPad

On Oct 23, 2022, at 11:53 PM, Robin Bigio <robin...@gmail.com> wrote:


This is how it would work:

  1. Jump the halyard and then cleat it
  2. Pull the line in the cockpit
  3. Winch the final portion and the line comes off the lateral cleat

On Sun, Oct 23, 2022 at 8:43 PM, Robin Bigio <robin...@gmail.com> wrote:
And one final idea, which is a lateral cleat. I can imagine installing it offset from the halyard path, so that once one pulls the line through it comes undone from the clear.


On Sun, Oct 23, 2022 at 8:28 PM, Robin Bigio <robin.bigio@gmail.com> wrote:
Found this which seems really promising: https://youtu.be/ats0voB-Zkg?t=412

Robin B.
ZOE, 30U #307
SF Bay, CA



On Sun, Oct 23, 2022 at 8:06 PM, Robin Bigio <robin.bigio@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi folks,

I like to raise my main by jumping the halyard at the mast while someone pulls it in around the main winch on the cabin top (usually my 9 yo kid). The main is up in less than 2min, and then I only need a couple of turns on the winch

I would love to do this on even when I am on my own instead of hoisting from the cockpit which takes forever.

I am curious if anyone has experimented with any mast systems that enable them to:
  1. Jump the halyard and somehow temporarily attach it at the foot of the mast
  2. Go back to the cockpit and pull all the line in
  3. Crank the final  few inches on the main
The one idea I've had was to attach a cam cleat on the mast inline the the halyard exit.

Any ideas, pictures or thoughts would be super welcome!

Robin B.
ZOE, 30U #307
SF Bay, CA

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medjd3

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Oct 24, 2022, 9:10:42 AM10/24/22
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Hi,

 

I think this is what you may be looking for.  It is a inverted cam cleat.  When at the mast the cam cleat holds the halyard as you raise the sail.  Back at the cockpit a pull on the line releases the cam cleat. It is very easy to make and no holes are drilled in the mast.

Hope this helps. (the tape measure is shown to give you an idea of its size)

 

Jeff Dix

Fairwind, 30u 514

Annapolis, MD

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Joe Valinoti

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Oct 24, 2022, 11:26:31 AM10/24/22
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Robin:  This has been discussed at length before on the discussion list.  Go to the INA website and look it up.  I have a clutch on my halyard so It’s real simple when I’ve another person on board.  Leave the clutch on and take up the slack.
 
Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA


~~~~~(\_ ~(\_ ~(\_~~~~~~~~~~

 
Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2022 11:06 PM
Subject: Hoisting the main solo — jumping the halyard + cam cleat?
 

Tom Schoenhofer 26C#28 North Star Penetanguishene

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Oct 24, 2022, 11:39:53 AM10/24/22
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HalyardCamCleat.jpg
This works very well. It is upside down in the photo. No holes in the mast. There is a strip of rubber between it and the mast. The gear clamp passes under the sail track just below where the first mast track screw is.

Raising the sail by jumping the halyard is much faster and easier than winching it up. However when single handed the pile of halyard on the deck tends to get tangled or snagged somewhere forward when you are back in the cockpit.

Tom
26C #28  North Star
Penetang

theen...@comcast.net

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Oct 24, 2022, 12:05:24 PM10/24/22
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Great subject.  I know I am going to get some flak over my take on the matter but here goes.

 

The Nonsuch was so very well designed taking in consideration both comfort and SAFETY.   Having the ability to handle all sail activities from the cockpit tremendously adds to the safety factor.  No one is allowed on the deck of my boat, for any reason, other than emergencies or if they are connected to appropriate harnesses, etc..  To have crew forward, on deck, unnecessarily takes away a safety factor already built into the Nonsuch design.  To raise the sail at the mast while boating alone is dramatically challenging the safety factor.  I really question the wisdom of that.

 

There are a number of things available to make the sail go up easier such as the fast track, electric winch, WinchRite, and others. 

 

I understand that some use the at mast method but I recommend that method should be reviewed.

 

Cheers,

 

Butch

 

 

Butch Garren

Nonsuch 30 #196  “Whiskers II”

SIYC Slip 12

Solomons, MD

Image removed by sender.

 

 

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acco...@mpcg.ca

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Oct 24, 2022, 12:42:25 PM10/24/22
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Butch,

 

You obviously have not read/ been aware of the potential/dangers involved in using electric winches – wichrites etc

 

Much safer to go forward (as you say with harness) to hoist the main sail if you are unable to hoist it manually from cockpit

 

Sail Safe

 

Cedric Single Malt 26C #207

Chester NS

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theen...@comcast.net

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Oct 24, 2022, 12:51:22 PM10/24/22
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Cedric,  I would love to sit down with you over a couple beers, or what ever you drink, and argue this subject.  Might be fun.

 

Love to know how many use the harness when they do go forward like you do.

 

Yes, I have read about those dangers, especially with the electric winch.  Never heard anything negative about the WinchRite except the cost.

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Michael Jabara

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Oct 24, 2022, 1:17:10 PM10/24/22
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To all: there is no comparison between the sail on the 22 or 26 and a the one on the 33 or 36, particularly if it has a full roach. 

George Hinterhoeller, with Mark Ellis’ support, put an electric winch on a larger boats for very good reason.

In my mind, trying to jump the halyard on one of those larger sails,  which are actually larger and heavier than the mains on 50’+ traditional Marconi rigged boats, is foolish and not safe in anything but calm seas and low winds.

I can’t imagine doing it in the 30+ kt blows we get every afternoon here in San Francisco Bay…

And I do agree: electric winches can be dangerous, but their design, construction and installation in a Nonsuch is easily controlled from the cockpit but a careful and experienced helmsman or crew.

Michael Jabara

Hobbes II -  1995 NS 354

San Rafael, California



On Oct 24, 2022, at 9:51 AM, theen...@comcast.net wrote:



Cedric,  I would love to sit down with you over a couple beers, or what ever you drink, and argue this subject.  Might be fun.

 

Love to know how many use the harness when they do go forward like you do.

 

Yes, I have read about those dangers, especially with the electric winch.  Never heard anything negative about the WinchRite except the cost.

 

Cheers,

 

Butch

 

 

Butch Garren

Nonsuch 30 #196  “Whiskers II”

SIYC Slip 12

Solomons, MD

image001.png

 

 

 

From: ina-nonsuch-di...@googlegroups.com <ina-nonsuch-di...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of acco...@mpcg.ca
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2022 12:42 PM
To: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Hoisting the main solo — jumping the halyard + cam cleat?

 

Butch,

 

You obviously have not read/ been aware of the potential/dangers involved in using electric winches – wichrites etc

 

Much safer to go forward (as you say with harness) to hoist the main sail if you are unable to hoist it manually from cockpit

 

Sail Safe

 

Cedric Single Malt 26C #207

Chester NS

 

From: ina-nonsuch-di...@googlegroups.com <ina-nonsuch-di...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of theen...@comcast.net
Sent: October 24, 2022 1:05 PM
To: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Hoisting the main solo — jumping the halyard + cam cleat?

 

Great subject.  I know I am going to get some flak over my take on the matter but here goes.

 

The Nonsuch was so very well designed taking in consideration both comfort and SAFETY.   Having the ability to handle all sail activities from the cockpit tremendously adds to the safety factor.  No one is allowed on the deck of my boat, for any reason, other than emergencies or if they are connected to appropriate harnesses, etc..  To have crew forward, on deck, unnecessarily takes away a safety factor already built into the Nonsuch design.  To raise the sail at the mast while boating alone is dramatically challenging the safety factor.  I really question the wisdom of that.

 

There are a number of things available to make the sail go up easier such as the fast track, electric winch, WinchRite, and others. 

 

I understand that some use the at mast method but I recommend that method should be reviewed.

 

Cheers,

 

Butch

 

 

Butch Garren

Nonsuch 30 #196  “Whiskers II”

SIYC Slip 12

Solomons, MD

image001.png

image002.jpg

 

 

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Joe Valinoti

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Oct 24, 2022, 1:29:26 PM10/24/22
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The electric winches that are self tailing are the dangerous ones and have been known to eat fingers. 
 
Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

~~~~~(\_ ~(\_ ~(\_~~~~~~~~~~

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BRIAN CAYER

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Oct 24, 2022, 1:34:31 PM10/24/22
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Ok I will bite.
What are the inherent dangers of using powered winching devices?
Brian 
Boat-less in New England

On Oct 24, 2022, at 1:17 PM, Michael Jabara <mja...@redrockpartners.com> wrote:

To all: there is no comparison between the sail on the 22 or 26 and a the one on the 33 or 36, particularly if it has a full roach. 

Bob Gehrman

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Oct 24, 2022, 1:51:17 PM10/24/22
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I'm with Butch on this. I've been using the Winchrite all season and had no problems or dangers whatsoever. It paid for itself on the first raising of the sail. I did get it at a boat show for $650, but it's worth the $850 they're asking for it IMHO.

While I would not want to use an electric winch because of foretold dangers, the battery-operated, rechargeable winch-assist is a delight to use at all times. It takes all of the awkwardness out of having to heave the sail manually from the cockpit or send anyone up onto the deck for any reason.

Sailing solo, the task is achieved without any danger. Both hands are on the Winchrite, so you're not going to be able to get any fingers stuck in anything. If you let it go for any reason it stops turning. Of course, you have to look at the sail as it's going up to make sure nothing gets hung up, but because it stops immediately by letting go there's not much danger. When you're done using it it stows away nicely. One does need a self-tailing winch to use it.

Even compared to the rechargeable drill versions we see on this group, it's a lot more ergonomic considering all the torque on the unit, and the slower speed for final halyard tightening is a plus.

Bob Gehrman
NS30U #396 "Quickbeam"
Baltimore, Maryland

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acco...@mpcg.ca

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Oct 24, 2022, 2:19:50 PM10/24/22
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Butch  -- The name of my Nonsuch should give you a clue as to my drink preference!!!

 

Safe Sailing

Cedric  Single Malt

26C  # 207  Cheater Nova Scotia

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Paul Miller

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Oct 24, 2022, 3:25:04 PM10/24/22
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To defend the Milwaukee drill community….. 😅

-My fingers are nowhere near the winch.
-One hand on the drill while the other steers the boat to windward
-I can immediately feel any catch or hang up
-About 30 seconds to fully raise and tighten the sail (switching to low speed for the last foot)
-I can move it to the sheet winch where it makes easy work of sheeting a full sail
-When I bought mine it was much less expensive than Winchrite
….. Bob and I can have a separate argument about ergonomics…. 😁

Paul M
NS30U #211, Sandpiper 
Cowichan Bay, B.C.

Brian Cayer

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Oct 24, 2022, 5:08:09 PM10/24/22
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I think Milwaukee should come out with a product that tops Winchrite.
Brian
Boat-less in New England 

theen...@comcast.net

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Oct 24, 2022, 5:16:12 PM10/24/22
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I was trying to convert you.  Alright, a malt it is then.  Still would like to discuss it someday.

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Michael Jabara

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Oct 24, 2022, 5:27:04 PM10/24/22
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The two big dangers are 1) catching an appendage between the line and the winch roller while in use and 2) over tightening the halyard, which could potentially pull the entire halyard block off the top of the mast.

Both dangers are created by the significant torque generated by the geared-down electric motor. There is generally not a “torque release” adjustment available (like you would find in a torque wrench), so the operator must judge when to stop the winch as it slows down under tension

These dangers, by the way, are shown on a little placard applied by Hinterhoeller below the electric winch button on every so equipped yacht.  


Michael Jabara

Hobbes II - 1995 NS 354

San Rafael, California



On Oct 24, 2022, at 10:34 AM, BRIAN CAYER <b.k....@sbcglobal.net> wrote:



Brian Cayer

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Oct 24, 2022, 5:34:49 PM10/24/22
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Can we see a picture of that?

Joe Valinoti

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Oct 24, 2022, 5:37:56 PM10/24/22
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Same as mine, Paul.  I have a foot switch and hands not near the winch.
 
Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

~~~~~(\_ ~(\_ ~(\_~~~~~~~~~~

Michael Jabara

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Oct 24, 2022, 5:45:54 PM10/24/22
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By the way, I eliminated the first danger of lost appendages by installing a wireless remote control on a fob attached to my PFD in parallel with the Lewmar solenoid switch that controls the winch. 


Since I sail about 95% of the time single-handed, I pre-wrap the halyard around the drum and self-tailer at the dock. If I know it’s going to blow in the Bay, I will also put in a reef while at the dock. 


After motoring out of the marina, when it’s time to raise the main, I am able to steer the boat directly into the wind, remain behind the wheel, and raise the main with a push of a button on the remote control fob.


I’ve done this effortlessly in winds as high as 35 kts without having to leave the wheel. A side benefit is the battens never catch on the wishbone, since I’m able to control the exact direction and motoring speed as it is being raised.


After the main is raised, and before the sail flogs too much, I will pull hard on the choker without a winch, using the cam cleat to hold the tension. Then when I fall off, usually into a 30° to 45° tack, the tension and sail shape are almost always perfect.


Michael Jabara

Hobbes II - 1995 NS 354

San Rafael, California



On Oct 24, 2022, at 2:27 PM, Michael Jabara <mja...@redrockpartners.com> wrote:

The two big dangers are 1) catching an appendage between the line and the winch roller while in use and 2) over tightening the halyard, which could potentially pull the entire halyard block off the top of the mast.

Michael Jabara

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Oct 24, 2022, 5:53:49 PM10/24/22
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I will be glad to do so the next time I am at my beloved vessel. 

Right now I have just returned from a fine salted cod (“bacalhau”) dinner here in Oporto, Portugal and about to retire for the long journey home back to the States in the morning. 

Good night and fair winds to all.…


Michael Jabara

Hobbes II - 1995 NS 354

San Rafael, California



On Oct 24, 2022, at 2:34 PM, Brian Cayer <b.k....@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Can we see a picture of that?

BRIAN CAYER

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Oct 24, 2022, 6:12:29 PM10/24/22
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You are blessed with the part of God that teaches you to sail.
Brian
Boat-less in New England  

On Oct 24, 2022, at 5:45 PM, Michael Jabara <mja...@redrockpartners.com> wrote:



Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto

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Oct 24, 2022, 8:28:39 PM10/24/22
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I've been following all of this right from the getgo. As soon as my cosmic buddy Butch joined, I had to throw in my two cents but 92 others beat me to it. I was going to say that I agree 100% with Butch. "It" should ALL happen from the cockpit. None of "It" should strain or injure anyone and, IMHO, one should not go forward unless one MUST. 

Nonsuches are peculiar vessels. They were designed to be operated in a certain manner, by an excellent designer, Mark Ellis. It seems like jumping the main at the mast is a "quicker" way to get the thing up. OK - if speed is THAT important .......  Is it ??  It's good exercise. So is lifting weights or tug of war or running. If you want to go forward to perform tasks on a Nonsuch, go ahead but at your peril. I don't go forward (unless there is a problem and, yep, it happens so I have to go forward and I don't like doing it). 

I won't go into the multitude of machines and assists for raising the sail. That can all be found in (seriously) thousands of posts on that subject. I have a "surgically enhanced" lower back so I use a small Hilti Hi-torque drill on my NS22 and it works perfectly. Many Nonsuchers use Milwaukee drills or WinchRites or even ($$$$) E-winchers. And, many use electric winches. And most of us follow the time-worn and safe and sensible routine of doing it all from the cockpit. 

Robin - You are relatively new to Nonsuches and (once again, IMHO) I think it would be good practice to work on getting this task (and others) done from the cockpit so that you will never feel that certain tasks must be completed out of the cockpit. That doesn't sound clear - what I mean is: When the chips are down on the water, be confident that, for safety's sake, you can do it all from the safest place, the cockpit.

Ernie A. in Toronto

BRIAN CAYER

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Oct 24, 2022, 8:53:09 PM10/24/22
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Yes to all that but I still like your mast cleat solution to stay the halyard at the mast till you can jump back in the cockpit and top the main sail Robin. Even if you learn to do it easier it will always be there if you need it.
Brian
Boat-less in New England

On Oct 24, 2022, at 8:28 PM, Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto <ernest...@gmail.com> wrote:

I've been following all of this right from the getgo. As soon as my cosmic buddy Butch joined, I had to throw in my two cents but 92 others beat me to it. I was going to say that I agree 100% with Butch. "It" should ALL happen from the cockpit. None of "It" should strain or injure anyone and, IMHO, one should not go forward unless one MUST. 
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Tom Schoenhofer 26C#28 North Star Penetanguishene

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Oct 25, 2022, 12:37:16 AM10/25/22
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OK Butch and all. Of course I would not go forward in any kind of wind or seaway, especially single handed. I can raise the 26 Botts sail by hand by pulling on the halyard from the cockpit and winching the last two feet while steering but it hurts. 

Jumping the halyard from the mast single handed is for those calm days or at anchor. Because, as you know, the Nonsuch does not want to stay head to wind for longer than a few seconds if it's windy. Unless you're blessed with one of those newfangled autopilots. 

Anchor up, sail cover off, dingy down, boom freed up, soap on the mast track, and the reverse, must be done outside of the cockpit so saying one should never leave the cockpit is just not possible. 

The halyard exits the mast at the perfect height, I think it was designed that way for a reason.

The reason I jump the halyard when I can is it is far less strain on the heart and the arthritic hands and busted shoulder and the little cam cleat on the mast makes this possible. Others have an electric winch I guess and this may be in my future as well. 

Tom
26C #28 North Star
who might like to replace his 20 yr old Botts sail with something lighter and flatter soon. 
Penetang

Robin Bigio

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Oct 25, 2022, 2:37:26 PM10/25/22
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Wow, I was not expecting this much engagement on this topic. Thanks for everyone's input, thoughts and wisdom.

Jeff and Tom, thanks for sharing pictures of your contraptions, really clever and inspiring.

Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto

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Oct 25, 2022, 3:57:56 PM10/25/22
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Actually, Robin, I have this funny feeling that Tom developed " strain on the heart and the arthritic hands and busted shoulder" from jumping the sail at the mast. Or, maybe he jumped ON the sail at the mast. That would give anyone heart problems.

But, to be a bit serious, what I really enjoy about all of this chatter and this community is the wonderful and somewhat different approaches we all take to doing what we love. Yes, I'd rather be in the cockpit but others would rather be ..... wherever the H they want to be. None of us were born yesterday (a good and a bad thing) and, while some of us are newbies to Nonsuches (and/or boats in general), we all bring a ton of valuable ideas, approaches and brilliantly good sense to the table.

Now, only the luckier ones among us can keep sailing as many of us have to put our "babies" to sleep for 3 - 6 - 9 months. This discussion group helps us Northerners get through the winter (ugh ...... ) and makes counting the 180 + or - days less of a hardship. 

Thanks, everyone.

Ernie A. in Toronto
 


Paul Miller

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Oct 25, 2022, 8:06:31 PM10/25/22
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I think you mean north-easterners Ernie.😉

--
Paul M
NS30U #211, Sandpiper
Cowichan Bay B.C.

Joe Valinoti

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Oct 25, 2022, 8:41:58 PM10/25/22
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My contributions to this is if I wanted to be perfectly safe, I would stay at home, in bed and under the covers, never going sailing!!
 
Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

~~~~~(\_ ~(\_ ~(\_~~~~~~~~~~

Ned Chester

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Oct 26, 2022, 3:22:19 PM10/26/22
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"A ship in the harbor is safe, but ships were not built to stay in harbors."   One of my favorite fortune cookie inserts.  

Ned Chester
Pipe Dream NS30C #323
Portland, ME

bobby.il...@gmail.com

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Oct 27, 2022, 6:24:28 PM10/27/22
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I have attached a clam cleat, much like this one https://arthurbeale.co.uk/products/vertical-nylon-jam-cleat, to a curved aluminium plate that is fixed to the mast by the worm-drive clips that encircle the mast and which hold the aluminium fillet in place into which is screwed the sail track.  If that doesn’t make sense I’ll take a photo next time I’m on board.  It works well and can also be used to tension the halyard before raising the sail to prevent it from getting caught around the front of the mast.

 

Bob Illingworth

Nonsuch Luck 30U #367 (GBR1262T)

Moored Titchmarsh marina, Essex, UK; cruising the rivers of East Anglia, and, the North Sea.

 

 

 

From: ina-nonsuch-di...@googlegroups.com <ina-nonsuch-di...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Robin Bigio
Sent: 24 October 2022 04:07
To: Digest recipients <ina-nonsuch-di...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Hoisting the main solo — jumping the halyard + cam cleat?

 

Hi folks,

 

I like to raise my main by jumping the halyard at the mast while someone pulls it in around the main winch on the cabin top (usually my 9 yo kid). The main is up in less than 2min, and then I only need a couple of turns on the winch

 

I would love to do this on even when I am on my own instead of hoisting from the cockpit which takes forever.

 

I am curious if anyone has experimented with any mast systems that enable them to:

  1. Jump the halyard and somehow temporarily attach it at the foot of the mast
  2. Go back to the cockpit and pull all the line in
  3. Crank the final  few inches on the main

The one idea I've had was to attach a cam cleat on the mast inline the the halyard exit.

 

Any ideas, pictures or thoughts would be super welcome!

 

Robin B.

ZOE, 30U #307

SF Bay, CA

 

 

Jim Lieder

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Oct 27, 2022, 9:57:00 PM10/27/22
to INA Nonsuch Discussion Group
I really disagree with those who claim electric winches are dangerous to use.

I recently installed a Lewmar electric winch and the button is 6' away from the winch.  No one is around the winch when in use, and I don't see how fingers are at risk of getting mangled being so far away.   I typically put three wraps on my winch and then into the self-tailer.  With three wraps, the halyard will slip when any unusual resistance is encountered.  The resistance usually comes from an unreleased reefing line.

In my opinion, the potential danger is more likely when using a winch rite or a heavy  drill in the winch.

Jim 
Lake St. Clair
NS 30 #350 "Sixpence"

On Monday, October 24, 2022 at 5:27:04 PM UTC-4 mja...@redrockpartners.com wrote:

Mike BIANKA

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Oct 28, 2022, 6:43:45 AM10/28/22
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My 30 NS U had a jam cleat already installed on the mast when I bought it. It's similar to this one:
https://www.westmarine.com/schaefer-5inch-jam-cleat-open-base-cleat-for-3-8inch-line-129163.html
I don't jump the halyard as a solo sailor so I don't use it for raising the raising the main. I do find it useful for those times when I want to use the halyard to hoist a dingy on the forward deck though.

Mike
BIANKA
1986 30U
Long Island
On Sunday, October 23, 2022 at 11:06:39 PM UTC-4 robin...@gmail.com wrote:
Hi folks,

I like to raise my main by jumping the halyard at the mast while someone pulls it in around the main winch on the cabin top (usually my 9 yo kid). The main is up in less than 2min, and then I only need a couple of turns on the winch

I would love to do this on even when I am on my own instead of hoisting from the cockpit which takes forever.

I am curious if anyone has experimented with any mast systems that enable them to:
  1. Jump the halyard and somehow temporarily attach it at the foot of the mast
  2. Go back to the cockpit and pull all the line in
  3. Crank the final  few inches on the main
The one idea I've had was to attach a cam cleat on the mast inline the the halyard exit.

Any ideas, pictures or thoughts would be super welcome!

Robin B.
ZOE, 30U #307
SF Bay, CA

Michael Jabara

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Oct 28, 2022, 10:19:54 AM10/28/22
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Lewmar issues safety warning on self-tailing winches

Ocean NavigatorApril 27, 2011

"After a recent accident in Antigua where a woman lost one of her hands while operating a self-tailing winch Lewmar, the manufacturer of the winch, has issued a safety warning on their operation. According to Yachting Monthly, a woman was winching her husband up the mast of an Amel 54 in Antigua when the line developed an override. While trying to free the override one of the woman’s hands became entangled and was severed, while her other hand was also severely injured. Another sailor who came to assist also lost seven fingers, according to the report. Lewmar, Ltd. has subsequently issued a safety notice regarding the operation of self-tailing winches..."

https://oceannavigator.com/lewmar-issues-safety-warning-on-self-tailing-winches/

Michael Jabara
Hobbes II - 1995 NS 354
San Rafael, California

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Joe Valinoti

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Oct 28, 2022, 10:36:05 AM10/28/22
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I remember that one, Mike.  A close personal friend lost two fingers while hoisting his main on a 47 ft Island Packet.  Self tailing power winches are not to be trifled with!!
 
Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA


~~~~~(\_ ~(\_ ~(\_~~~~~~~~~~

bobby.il...@gmail.com

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Oct 28, 2022, 11:38:14 AM10/28/22
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I read a more detailed report of that accident.  This was the not unusual situation where the husband did everything on the yacht and the wife just went along for the ride.  Hoisting her husband up the mast was the first time she had used the electric winch.  If I remember correctly the sailor who came to help had not used an electric winch before either.

 

As Jo says, they’re not to be trifled with.  It seems to me that training in all the basic procedures is a must for everyone who puts to sea in a small boat.

 

Bob Illingworth

Nonsuch Luck 30U #367 (GBR1262T)

Moored Titchmarsh marina, Essex, UK; cruising the rivers of East Anglia, and, the North Sea.

 

 

 

Michael Jabara



 

 

 

From: ina-nonsuch-di...@googlegroups.com <ina-nonsuch-di...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of acco...@mpcg.ca
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2022 12:42 PM
To: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Hoisting the main solo — jumping the halyard + cam cleat?

 

Butch,

 

You obviously have not read/ been aware of the potential/dangers involved in using electric winches – wichrites etc

 

Much safer to go forward (as you say with harness) to hoist the main sail if you are unable to hoist it manually from cockpit

 

Sail Safe

 

Cedric Single Malt 26C #207

Chester NS

 

From: ina-nonsuch-di...@googlegroups.com <ina-nonsuch-di...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of theen...@comcast.net
Sent: October 24, 2022 1:05 PM
To: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Hoisting the main solo — jumping the halyard + cam cleat?

 

Great subject.  I know I am going to get some flak over my take on the matter but here goes.

 

The Nonsuch was so very well designed taking in consideration both comfort and SAFETY.   Having the ability to handle all sail activities from the cockpit tremendously adds to the safety factor.  No one is allowed on the deck of my boat, for any reason, other than emergencies or if they are connected to appropriate harnesses, etc..  To have crew forward, on deck, unnecessarily takes away a safety factor already built into the Nonsuch design.  To raise the sail at the mast while boating alone is dramatically challenging the safety factor.  I really question the wisdom of that.

 

There are a number of things available to make the sail go up easier such as the fast track, electric winch, WinchRite, and others. 

 

I understand that some use the at mast method but I recommend that method should be reviewed.

 

Cheers,

 

Butch

 

 

Butch Garren

Nonsuch 30 #196  “Whiskers II”

SIYC Slip 12

Solomons, MD

 

 

Michael Jabara

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Oct 28, 2022, 11:50:06 AM10/28/22
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Joe, sorry to hear about your friend. 

The torque in these winches is significant: my Hinterhoeller-installed Lewmar Ocean 40 - their smallest - draws 700 watts (90 amps) and has a working/lifting load of 1750 lbs! 

Fortunately, the halyard run in a Nonsuch is very straightforward. In my case, solid Harken Battcar track, blocks, guides and clutch hardware also help keep the friction down. 

Nevertheless, when crew and passengers are on board, you can't be too vigilant. Also line tangles, overrides or batten hang-ups have the separate risk of pulling the halyard block right off the top of the mast due to the massive torque.

Brian @ SV Serenity

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Oct 31, 2022, 1:23:11 PM10/31/22
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Ouch.

Is there...  training to be had on electrical self-tailing winches?  I mean, I don't put my fingers near the drum or tailer (I'll hold the tail end of the line for flaking purposes), and the controls are 12 or so inches away.  I can't get my fingers on the same hand near the winch and the controls, but certainly I can operate the winch while holding the tailing line...

Brian
SV Serenity
Nonsuch Nereus #003
Pax River, MD

Jim Cosgrove

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Oct 31, 2022, 3:01:43 PM10/31/22
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From reading about these gruesome accidents, it seems one precaution to remember is never manually attempt to fix an override while the line is under tension. Instead, attach a second line to the first with a rolling hitch, lead the second line to a second winch, and tighten the second line to take tension off the first line. 

I’m sure all of us know this. It’s the novice crew and bystanders who want to “help” that we have to be especially vigilant with and ensure they don’t get into trouble. 

Jim Cosgrove 
FATE 30U #343
Galesville, MD

BRIAN CAYER

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Oct 31, 2022, 3:13:40 PM10/31/22
to INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com
All
Halloween subject for sure…

Brian
Boat-less in New England 

On Oct 31, 2022, at 3:01 PM, 'Jim Cosgrove' via INA Nonsuch Discussion Group <INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

 From reading about these gruesome accidents, it seems one precaution to remember is never manually attempt to fix an override while the line is under tension. Instead, attach a second line to the first with a rolling hitch, lead the second line to a second winch, and tighten the second line to take tension off the first line. 
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bobby.il...@gmail.com

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Nov 3, 2022, 5:33:59 PM11/3/22
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Attached as promised are a couple of photographs of the cam cleat I fitted to Nonsuch Luck’s mast which enables me to hoist the sail at the mast when sailing single-handed.

 

Bob Illingworth

Nonsuch Luck 30U #367 (GBR1262T)

Moored Titchmarsh marina, Essex, UK; cruising the rivers of East Anglia, and, the North Sea.

 

 


Sent: 24 October 2022 04:07
To: Digest recipients <ina-nonsuch-di...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Hoisting the main solo — jumping the halyard + cam cleat?

Clam cleat for halyard 2.jpg
Clam cleat for halyard 1.jpg

BRIAN CAYER

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Nov 3, 2022, 6:01:49 PM11/3/22
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Nice job Bob.
Did you shape the aluminum plate by hammer and anvil of roll it?

Brian
Boat-less in New England

On Nov 3, 2022, at 5:34 PM, bobby.il...@gmail.com wrote:


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Clam cleat for halyard 2.jpgClam cleat for halyard 1.jpg

Robin Bigio

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Nov 3, 2022, 7:12:12 PM11/3/22
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Super cool Bob, thanks for sharing!

Robin B.
ZOE, 30U #307
SF Bay, CA
On Thu, Nov 03, 2022 at 3:01 PM, BRIAN CAYER <b.k....@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Nice job Bob.
Did you shape the aluminum plate by hammer and anvil of roll it?

Brian
Boat-less in New England

On Nov 3, 2022, at 5:34 PM, bobby.illingworth@gmail.com wrote:



Attached as promised are a couple of photographs of the cam cleat I fitted to Nonsuch Luck’s mast which enables me to hoist the sail at the mast when sailing single-handed.

 

Bob Illingworth

Nonsuch Luck 30U #367 (GBR1262T)

Moored Titchmarsh marina, Essex, UK; cruising the rivers of East Anglia, and, the North Sea.

 

 

From: ina-nonsuch-discussion-group@googlegroups.com <ina-nonsuch-discussion-group@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Robin Bigio
Sent: 24 October 2022 04:07
To: Digest recipients <ina-nonsuch-di...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Hoisting the main solo — jumping the halyard + cam cleat?

 

Hi folks,

 

I like to raise my main by jumping the halyard at the mast while someone pulls it in around the main winch on the cabin top (usually my 9 yo kid). The main is up in less than 2min, and then I only need a couple of turns on the winch

 

I would love to do this on even when I am on my own instead of hoisting from the cockpit which takes forever.

 

I am curious if anyone has experimented with any mast systems that enable them to:

  1. Jump the halyard and somehow temporarily attach it at the foot of the mast
  2. Go back to the cockpit and pull all the line in
  3. Crank the final  few inches on the main

The one idea I've had was to attach a cam cleat on the mast inline the the halyard exit.

 

Any ideas, pictures or thoughts would be super welcome!

 

Robin B.

ZOE, 30U #307

SF Bay, CA

 

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bobby.il...@gmail.com

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Nov 4, 2022, 1:25:04 PM11/4/22
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No, I got it shaped by a local metal workshop for the price of a pint of beer!  That way it’s a perfect fit against the mast.

image001.jpg
image002.jpg

Don Crossley

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Nov 5, 2022, 11:01:52 AM11/5/22
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Having raced for many years on sloops, may I suggest a Cunningham set-up like the 8:1 cascaded as shown in Harken web page https://www.harken.com/en/support/selection-tools/system-diagrams/cunningham-systems-39/

I have made this, except I made the jammer up top rather than near deck. You attach lower end to existing collar around mast, and upper to Cunningham cringle on sail. I also attached a piece of shock-cord between upper block and sail to keep the Cunningham from flopping about when not in use. No need to attach any new hardware fittings around the mast.

Hope that helps,
Don

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image001.jpg
image002.jpg

Jim Cosgrove

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Nov 5, 2022, 11:28:00 AM11/5/22
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Hi Don,

Thanks for sharing this information, it’s very helpful. Sorry for being a bit thick, but I did have a couple of questions. First, you say you reversed the set up and put the jammer on top. Does that mean the Cunningham line doesn’t go back to the cockpit but terminates at the mast? Second, does the bungee cord go around a sail slide? Not picturing how it attaches the block to the sail. Thanks. 

Jim Cosgrove 
FATE 30U #343

doncr...@gmail.com

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Nov 5, 2022, 12:18:51 PM11/5/22
to INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com

Hi,

This was on a sloop, while racing the foredeck crew could apply or release the Cunningham, so no it didn’t go to cockpit. I suppose on a Nonsuch, it could be set-up similar to the reef lines to the cockpit, in which case you would not need, or want, a jammer at the mast. The bungee was simply tied off at a convenient location, on the sloop that was the boom. I don’t have a Cunningham on my boat, so haven’t thought about how I’d connect the bungee cord. The bungee is just to stop the Cunningham from bouncing around when not in use, and whacking against the mast, while sailing or at the dock, it does not affect the operation of the Cunningham.

 

The upper block was attached to the sail with a short piece of rope. Its similar to the mast end of the existing reef lines, except a Cunningham is attached at a lower point on the luff. It is applied once the sail is hoisted at max halyard tension. The blocks give you some mechanical advantage to pull the lower luff down. You want to be sure to release the Cunningham when putting boat away, so it is not on when you next hoist the sail. One more rope to think about…

 

Don

Image removed by sender.

 

 

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~WRD0004.jpg

Robin Bigio

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Nov 6, 2022, 1:57:47 PM11/6/22
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Hey folks, I built my first prototype of the halyard bracket. All off the shelf parts, will see if it works :D

If you want to take a look at some in progress pics here is an album: https://photos.app.goo.gl/mU3aTe45cSqAw97M9

Thanks for all the help and inspiration! I will followup once it's installed!

On Sat, Nov 05, 2022 at 9:18 AM, <doncr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi,

This was on a sloop, while racing the foredeck crew could apply or release the Cunningham, so no it didn’t go to cockpit. I suppose on a Nonsuch, it could be set-up similar to the reef lines to the cockpit, in which case you would not need, or want, a jammer at the mast. The bungee was simply tied off at a convenient location, on the sloop that was the boom. I don’t have a Cunningham on my boat, so haven’t thought about how I’d connect the bungee cord. The bungee is just to stop the Cunningham from bouncing around when not in use, and whacking against the mast, while sailing or at the dock, it does not affect the operation of the Cunningham.

 

The upper block was attached to the sail with a short piece of rope. Its similar to the mast end of the existing reef lines, except a Cunningham is attached at a lower point on the luff. It is applied once the sail is hoisted at max halyard tension. The blocks give you some mechanical advantage to pull the lower luff down. You want to be sure to release the Cunningham when putting boat away, so it is not on when you next hoist the sail. One more rope to think about…

 

Don

 

From: 'Jim Cosgrove' via INA Nonsuch Discussion Group <INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group@googlegroups.com>
Sent: November 5, 2022 8:28 AM
To: INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Hoisting the main solo — jumping the halyard + cam cleat?

 

Hi Don,

 

Thanks for sharing this information, it’s very helpful. Sorry for being a bit thick, but I did have a couple of questions. First, you say you reversed the set up and put the jammer on top. Does that mean the Cunningham line doesn’t go back to the cockpit but terminates at the mast? Second, does the bungee cord go around a sail slide? Not picturing how it attaches the block to the sail. Thanks. 

 

Jim Cosgrove 

FATE 30U #343

 

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bobby.il...@gmail.com

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Nov 6, 2022, 7:39:23 PM11/6/22
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How far up the mast from deck level do you intend to fix it?  It looks like you intend to screw the bracket into the mast.

 

 

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image003.jpg

Robin Bigio

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Nov 8, 2022, 8:44:27 AM11/8/22
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Hey Bob, I am installing it 9in from the exit of the halyard, and will use a hose clamp to secure it to the mast, in order to avoid drilling holes.

Robin B.
ZOE, 30U #307
SF Bay, CA
On Sun, Nov 06, 2022 at 4:38 PM, <bobby.il...@gmail.com> wrote:

How far up the mast from deck level do you intend to fix it?  It looks like you intend to screw the bracket into the mast.

 

Bob Illingworth

Nonsuch Luck 30U #367 (GBR1262T)

Moored Titchmarsh marina, Essex, UK; cruising the rivers of East Anglia, and, the North Sea.

 

 

 

From: ina-nonsuch-discussion-group@googlegroups.com <ina-nonsuch-discussion-group@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Robin Bigio
Sent: 06 November 2022 18:58
To: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Hoisting the main solo — jumping the halyard + cam cleat?

 

Hey folks, I built my first prototype of the halyard bracket. All off the shelf parts, will see if it works :D

 

If you want to take a look at some in progress pics here is an album: https://photos.app.goo.gl/mU3aTe45cSqAw97M9

 

Thanks for all the help and inspiration! I will followup once it's installed!

 

 

On Sat, Nov 05, 2022 at 9:18 AM, <doncrossley@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi,

This was on a sloop, while racing the foredeck crew could apply or release the Cunningham, so no it didn’t go to cockpit. I suppose on a Nonsuch, it could be set-up similar to the reef lines to the cockpit, in which case you would not need, or want, a jammer at the mast. The bungee was simply tied off at a convenient location, on the sloop that was the boom. I don’t have a Cunningham on my boat, so haven’t thought about how I’d connect the bungee cord. The bungee is just to stop the Cunningham from bouncing around when not in use, and whacking against the mast, while sailing or at the dock, it does not affect the operation of the Cunningham.

 

The upper block was attached to the sail with a short piece of rope. Its similar to the mast end of the existing reef lines, except a Cunningham is attached at a lower point on the luff. It is applied once the sail is hoisted at max halyard tension. The blocks give you some mechanical advantage to pull the lower luff down. You want to be sure to release the Cunningham when putting boat away, so it is not on when you next hoist the sail. One more rope to think about…

 

Don

 

From: 'Jim Cosgrove' via INA Nonsuch Discussion Group <INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group@googlegroups.com>
Sent: November 5, 2022 8:28 AM
To: INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Hoisting the main solo — jumping the halyard + cam cleat?

 

Hi Don,

 

Thanks for sharing this information, it’s very helpful. Sorry for being a bit thick, but I did have a couple of questions. First, you say you reversed the set up and put the jammer on top. Does that mean the Cunningham line doesn’t go back to the cockpit but terminates at the mast? Second, does the bungee cord go around a sail slide? Not picturing how it attaches the block to the sail. Thanks. 

 

Jim Cosgrove 

FATE 30U #343

 

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Tom Schoenhofer 26C#28 North Star Penetanguishene

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Nov 8, 2022, 1:28:33 PM11/8/22
to INA Nonsuch Discussion Group
Nice Onshape model.
Make sure you have a rubber or leather pad under this to prevent the corners from gouging your mast.

Tom

On Sunday, 6 November 2022 at 13:57:47 UTC-5 robin...@gmail.com wrote:
Hey folks, I built my first prototype of the halyard bracket. All off the shelf parts, will see if it works :D

If you want to take a look at some in progress pics here is an album: https://photos.app.goo.gl/mU3aTe45cSqAw97M9

Thanks for all the help and inspiration! I will followup once it's installed!

On Sat, Nov 05, 2022 at 9:18 AM, <doncr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi,

This was on a sloop, while racing the foredeck crew could apply or release the Cunningham, so no it didn’t go to cockpit. I suppose on a Nonsuch, it could be set-up similar to the reef lines to the cockpit, in which case you would not need, or want, a jammer at the mast. The bungee was simply tied off at a convenient location, on the sloop that was the boom. I don’t have a Cunningham on my boat, so haven’t thought about how I’d connect the bungee cord. The bungee is just to stop the Cunningham from bouncing around when not in use, and whacking against the mast, while sailing or at the dock, it does not affect the operation of the Cunningham.

 

The upper block was attached to the sail with a short piece of rope. Its similar to the mast end of the existing reef lines, except a Cunningham is attached at a lower point on the luff. It is applied once the sail is hoisted at max halyard tension. The blocks give you some mechanical advantage to pull the lower luff down. You want to be sure to release the Cunningham when putting boat away, so it is not on when you next hoist the sail. One more rope to think about…

 

Don

 

From: 'Jim Cosgrove' via INA Nonsuch Discussion Group <INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: November 5, 2022 8:28 AM
To: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Hoisting the main solo — jumping the halyard + cam cleat?

 

Hi Don,

 

Thanks for sharing this information, it’s very helpful. Sorry for being a bit thick, but I did have a couple of questions. First, you say you reversed the set up and put the jammer on top. Does that mean the Cunningham line doesn’t go back to the cockpit but terminates at the mast? Second, does the bungee cord go around a sail slide? Not picturing how it attaches the block to the sail. Thanks. 

 

Jim Cosgrove 

FATE 30U #343

 

 

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robin...@gmail.com

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Nov 9, 2022, 9:49:59 PM11/9/22
to INA Nonsuch Discussion Group
Ok folks I’ve installed the device and this is what it looks like. It seems really strong and I can hang off of it. 

Here is a short video in case it’s interesting to anyone. https://photos.app.goo.gl/TGcHMrN9Qk2H7rSn8

Robin B.
ZOE, 30U #307
SF Bay, CA


On Tue, Nov 8 2022 at 10:28 AM, Tom Schoenhofer 26C#28 North Star Penetanguishene <tschoe...@gmail.com> wrote:
Nice Onshape model.
Make sure you have a rubber or leather pad under this to prevent the corners from gouging your mast.

Tom

On Sunday, 6 November 2022 at 13:57:47 UTC-5 robin...@gmail.com wrote:
Hey folks, I built my first prototype of the halyard bracket. All off the shelf parts, will see if it works :D

If you want to take a look at some in progress pics here is an album: https://photos.app.goo.gl/mU3aTe45cSqAw97M9

Thanks for all the help and inspiration! I will followup once it's installed!

 

 

IMG_3916.jpeg
IMG_3914.jpeg

Bob Neches (Me Gusta, Nonsuch 26U #233)

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Nov 9, 2022, 10:33:24 PM11/9/22
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Looks really nice, Robin!

This is one of the best approaches I've seen.

My one suggestion would be to get some kind of tape or rubber strip underneath the hose clamp to avoid corrosion between the stainless clamp and the aluminum mast.

-- Bob
   Me Gusta
   Nonsuch 26U #233

Joe Valinoti

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Nov 10, 2022, 7:51:23 AM11/10/22
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Looks great, Robin!!
 
Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA


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