Agenda for next meeting

[Dave Leeman]

Harmony Community Garden Club
Agenda for 28 Sept. 2008

Call to Order
Committee Introductions

1) Reading of the previous minutes ( highlights only, no discussion)

2) Progress report concerning “Costs Other Community Gardens Have”
from Don

3) Progress report concerning “Garden Land” from Karul

4) Discussion Topics (to be concluded this meeting, for posting and
voting
proposes)
Rules: topic to be announced with a starting point for the
discussion. Raise
hand to be heard. When acknowledged - 3 minute time period per point
of view.

A) Soil Testing
B) Voting- The 2 tier voting system
C) Organic- The definition of

5) Discussion Topics (should time allow)
Rules: as stated above

D) Assignment of Plots
E) “Mandatory Work Days”

6) Set Next Meeting Date and Time

7) Conclude Meeting

[Beth Maxim]

Thanks Dave, I'll print these out for next meeting.

 

All, attached and below are the meeting notes from yesterday's meeting. Please let me know if I have omitted anything or missed any updates. Also, does anyone have an issue if I just submit meeting notes as attachments in the future when details get lengthy? I think reading an email of this length is painful, and it will avoid people having a hard time reading them due to formatting issues. On a related note, George, you may be seeing Dave's emails with line breaks due to your email settings. In your toolbar, is it set to “HTML” or “Plain Text”? Try switching and see what happens. Also, when emails are sent or viewed on a blackberry they will typically default to plain text.

 

Greg, I have also submitted as an attachment the "expectation" section of our decisions for you to share with the CDD at Thursday's meeting.

 

I will be setting up a Doodle vote for next week’s meeting soon.

 

HARMONY ORGANIC COMMUNITY GARDEN MEETING MINUTES

 

September 21, 2008

 

All decisions and votes taken tonight are provisional. Decisions were made to keep things moving forward, and we made great progress. Thank you to all who participated!

 

First order: Committee votes: it was decided that since we don’t know exactly how much work will be needed by the committee, we will have four positions: two co-coordinators, one secretary, and one treasurer. They are the following people:

 

·         Co-coordinators: Pam LeMenager and Dave Leeman

·         Treasurer: Kerul Kassel

·         Secretary: Beth Maxim

 

We reviewed the responsibilities list Kerul typed up and distributed to the group (previously posted to yahoo group). We made minor tweaks to it, and the new list is provided below. Please note that this is a living document which will require more detail in the future. The current list’s purpose is to present our high-level requirements to the CDD at their meeting Thursday, September 25^th, and assure them no interested gardener will be excluded in the future.

 

Harmony Organic Community Garden Mission:

To provide an opportunity for Harmony residents to learn and practice the environmentally intelligent values that we espouse; to increase our knowledge of and experience with those practices; to deepen our connection with the earth and environment through our working in the soil; to be an exemplary model for other communities; and to produce delicious food while having fun gardening!

 

Garden Members agree to:

1. Maintain our assigned garden beds (water, weed, spray only with approved organic sprays) and enforce these requirements so all garden beds are an attraction to the community
2. Assign garden beds for a prescribed time period and relinquish a garden bed, if needed, to provide equitable garden use
3. Fertilize only with organic fertilizers
4. Attend to and harvest only from our own garden beds
5. Assign a substitute when we are out of town (to water, weed, harvest, etc.)
6. Share in the cost of roto-tiller maintenance and fuel
7. Store in and return any available community tools to the garden shed
8. Mulch the garden bed walkways with wood chips provided by Harmony Development Company
9. Check with adjacent bed gardeners before planting anything that will grow 4-6 feet tall (which prevents shading issues)
10. Allocate beds by lottery should there be more interested gardeners than there are garden beds
11. Agree to indemnify, defend and hold harmless Harmony, Inc. from and against any damage or injury to any person or any real property arising from the gardener’s use of the property or the tools provided. The gardener agrees to pay for all damages to the property or tools caused by the gardener’s misuse or neglect of the property or tools.
    (to be signed by all garden Members upon application)
12. Establish and enforce a fair process for obtaining and terminating a garden bed
13. Allocate 10% of our garden beds to interested Harmony employees and teachers of Harmony schools
14. Maintain any equipment accepted from Harmony Development or the Harmony CDD

 

Garden Members expect the Town of Harmony will be responsible for the following:

1. Define the garden as an organic community garden in all communication, marketing and signage
2. Provide garden beds: initially tilled to start the gardening process
3. Provide fair access to the garden beds (no rental charge)
4. Build a 4-foot fence around the perimeter of the garden to discourage rabbits, armadillos, and other garden-eating critters from entering the garden area
5. Establish an Organic Community Garden Association to uphold the garden upkeep rules
6. Supply water and hose connections
7. Publish a list of organic fertilizers that can be used
8. Purchase a roto-tiller for Community Garden usage
9. Provide a pavilion for shade and use as a gathering place out of the sun
10. Offer workshops on Florida gardening and organic gardening by Master Gardeners
11. Provide areas for composting
12. Establish additional gardens when the initial garden reaches 90% capacity of each family maintaining 1 garden bed

 

Other provisional decisions that were made at tonight’s meeting are:

 

Harmony Organic Community Garden Membership

 

The group voted on an annual membership. Members who are in good standing (have a well-maintained garden bed(s) and are paid in full) will have automatic renewal of their garden bed(s).

 

Membership tier structure:

1. Resident Members. These members are residents of Harmony. They receive priority for open garden beds when the maximum number of garden beds is reached. They have full voting rights and are required to contribute maintenance costs, per garden bed, as determined by the Community Garden members.
2. Non-resident Members. These members are employees of Harmony or of the Harmony schools. They have full voting rights and are required to contribute maintenance costs, per garden bed, as determined by the Community Garden.
3. Non-member Guests. These gardeners are included by invitation only by vote of the Community Garden members. They are not eligible to vote and do not pay costs to use the garden. Examples of these guests include Master Gardeners from whom we can learn advanced gardening techniques, and special projects for the Harmony schools.

Note that all members and guests must indemnify the Community Garden with written signature. School students must have signed permission slips to enter the garden.

 

 

Voting

 

We voted to agree on a two-tiered voting structure.

 

1. All Resident Member households will be privileged to vote for any organizational decisions. For example, By laws, rules, policies, committee and administration

 

2. All Resident Members and Non-resident Members will be privileged to vote for any expense, maintenance, and operations-related decisions.

 

Our next meeting will be either Sunday, September 28^th at 4:30 p.m. or Monday, September 29^th at 6:30 p.m. A vote for the preferred meeting dates will be sent out via Doodle, at which time the locations of the meeting will be provided.

 

At this meeting we will discuss membership costs. Don has agreed to research the membership costs of similar gardens throughout Central Florida and will report his findings at the next meeting.

[Beth Maxim]

Hi again,

 

Here is the link to decide on our next meeting date.

 

http://www.doodle.ch/3rnnx63745zq363e

 

See you soon!

 

Beth

 

---

[Kerul Kassel]

Great job, Beth!

 

Below are the only differences from what I understood was agreed upon during Sunday’s meeting:

 

Under “Garden Members Agree To” #6 should be “Share in the cost of maintenance of any equipment owned by the community garden.” As there is additional discussion needed regarding acceptance (or not) of a rototiller, we decided to make it generic and high-level for this set of agreements.

 

Also, #2 and #12 in that section should probably be combined.

 

It seems that item #5 under ”Garden Members Expect the Town of Harmony to be Responsible for” section doesn’t belong there – it’s the responsibility of the garden group, and it’s something we’ve already done.  If we want to put it in the “Garden Members Agree To” section, we certainly could.

 

About the 2 tiered voting, we also established that any votes about administrative/by-laws/rules/policies were to be made on a one-vote-per-address basis, and any votes about operations, maintenance, and expense would be made by a one-vote-per-garden-bed basis.  

 

Finally, the next proposed meeting dates/times are next Sunday, 9/28 at 4:30pm or Monday, 9/29 at 6:30pm.

 

Thanks again, Beth!

Kerul

---

[Beth Maxim]

Thanks! Here are the revised notes. Greg, please use this Expectations attachment instead. I’ve included “rev1” at the end of the filename.

 

HARMONY ORGANIC COMMUNITY GARDEN MEETING MINUTES, rev1

September 21, 2008

 

 

All decisions and votes taken tonight are provisional. Decisions were made to keep things moving forward, and we made great progress. Thank you to all who participated!

 

First order: Committee votes: it was decided that since we don’t know exactly how much work will be needed by the committee, we will have four positions: two co-coordinators, one secretary, and one treasurer. They are the following people:

 

·         Co-coordinators: Pam LeMenager and Dave Leeman

·         Treasurer: Kerul Kassel

·         Secretary: Beth Maxim

 

We reviewed the responsibilities list Kerul typed up and distributed to the group (previously posted to yahoo group). We made minor tweaks to it, and the new list is provided below. Please note that this is a living document which will require more detail in the future. The current list’s purpose is to present our high-level requirements to the CDD at their meeting Thursday, September 25^th, and assure them no interested gardener will be excluded in the future.

 

Harmony Organic Community Garden Mission:

To provide an opportunity for Harmony residents to learn and practice the environmentally intelligent values that we espouse; to increase our knowledge of and experience with those practices; to deepen our connection with the earth and environment through our working in the soil; to be an exemplary model for other communities; and to produce delicious food while having fun gardening!

 

Garden Members agree to:

1. Establish an Organic Community Garden Association to uphold the garden upkeep rules

1. Maintain our assigned garden beds (water, weed, spray only with approved organic sprays) and enforce these requirements so all garden beds are an attraction to the community

1. Assign garden beds for a prescribed time period and relinquish a garden bed, if needed, to provide equitable garden use, and establish and enforce a fair process for obtaining and terminating a garden bed

1. Fertilize only with organic fertilizers
2. Attend to and harvest only from our own garden beds
3. Assign a substitute when we are out of town (to water, weed, harvest, etc.)

1. Share in the cost of maintenance of any equipment owned by the community garden

1. Store in and return any available community tools to the garden shed
2. Mulch the garden bed walkways with wood chips provided by Harmony Development Company
3. Check with adjacent bed gardeners before planting anything that will grow 4-6 feet tall (which prevents shading issues)
4. Allocate beds by lottery should there be more interested gardeners than there are garden beds
5. Agree to indemnify, defend and hold harmless Harmony, Inc. from and against any damage or injury to any person or any real property arising from the gardener’s use of the property or the tools provided. The gardener agrees to pay for all damages to the property or tools caused by the gardener’s misuse or neglect of the property or tools.
   (to be signed by all garden Members upon application)

1. Allocate 10% of our garden beds to interested Harmony employees and teachers of Harmony schools
2. Maintain any equipment accepted from Harmony Development or the Harmony CDD

 

Garden Members expect the Town of Harmony will be responsible for the following:

1. Define the garden as an organic community garden in all communication, marketing and signage

1. Provide garden beds: initially tilled to start the gardening process.

1. Provide fair access to the garden beds (no rental charge)
2. Build a 4-foot fence around the perimeter of the garden to discourage rabbits, armadillos, and other garden-eating critters from entering the garden area

1. Supply water and hose connections
2. Publish a list of organic fertilizers that can be used
3. Purchase a roto-tiller for Community Garden usage
4. Provide a pavilion for shade and use as a gathering place out of the sun
5. Offer workshops on Florida gardening and organic gardening by Master Gardeners
6. Provide areas for composting
7. Establish additional gardens when the initial garden reaches 90% capacity of each family maintaining 1 garden bed

 

Other provisional decisions that were made at tonight’s meeting are:

 

Harmony Organic Community Garden Membership

 

The group voted on an annual membership. Members who are in good standing (have a well-maintained garden bed(s) and are paid in full) will have automatic renewal of their garden bed(s).

 

Membership tier structure:

1. Resident Members. These members are residents of Harmony. They receive priority for open garden beds when the maximum number of garden beds is reached. They have full voting rights and are required to contribute maintenance costs, per garden bed, as determined by the Community Garden members.
2. Non-resident Members. These members are employees of Harmony or of the Harmony schools. They have full voting rights and are required to contribute maintenance costs, per garden bed, as determined by the Community Garden.
3. Non-member Guests. These gardeners are included by invitation only by vote of the Community Garden members. They are not eligible to vote and do not pay costs to use the garden. Examples of these guests include Master Gardeners from whom we can learn advanced gardening techniques, and special projects for the Harmony schools.

Note that all members and guests must indemnify the Community Garden with written signature. School students must have signed permission slips to enter the garden.

 

 

Voting

 

We voted to agree on a two-tiered voting structure.

 

 

1. All Resident Member households will be privileged to vote for any organizational decisions. For example, By laws, rules, policies, committee and administration. These votes will be made on a one-vote-per-address basis.

 

2. All Resident Members and Non-resident Members will be privileged to vote for any expense, maintenance, and operations-related decisions. These votes will be made on a one-vote-per-garden-bed basis.

 

 

Our next meeting will be either Sunday, September 28^th at 4:30 p.m. or Monday, September 29^th at 6:30 p.m. A vote for the preferred meeting dates will be sent out via Doodle, at which time the locations of the meeting will be provided.

 

At this meeting we will discuss membership costs. Don has agreed to research the membership costs of similar gardens throughout Central Florida and will report his findings at the next meeting.

 

###

 

Cheers,

Beth

[thelew...@earthlink.net]

I tried to vote for the next meeting but the Doodle site is down, I vote on Monday at 6:30.  Lisa Lewis

[Kerul Kassel]

Hi all, just a reminder to let us know which date is best for you for the next meeting. 

 

6 people have responded to the poll so far.  It’s already Thursday, so let us know by tomorrow, latest.

 

Here’s the online poll link:

 

http://www.doodle.ch/participation.html?pollId=3rnnx63745zq363e   

 

[Geo]

First, thank you for taking the time and the trouble to post this
Beth. Your efforts and the efforts of others like Dave and Kerul are
very much appreciated.

"All decisions and votes taken tonight are provisional."

This means that nothing has officially been voted on yet, right?
Assuming this is true, here are a few items that I believe need a
vote:

1) "HARMONY ORGANIC COMMUNITY GARDEN"

We discussed this a few meetings ago, but we definitely need to vote
on this. I attended the recent "Osceola County Extension Services"
meeting on vegetable gardening in Florida and it was obvious that
organic is not necessary the preferred method for productive
gardening. I was lead to believe that inorganic techniques could be
useful (in moderation) even for organic gardens. I think it would
behoove us to have Jennifer Welshans-Pelham of the Extension speak to
us so that we can learn more about the pros and cons of organic
gardening before making a summary decision that may be ill-informed.
Jennifer was very amenable to coming to Harmony to meet with us.

2) "They are the following people ..."

Hopefully everyone understands that these positions are still open to
everyone.

3) "water, weed, spray only with approved organic spray"

4) "Fertilize only with organic fertilizers"

5) "Agree to indemnify, defend and hold harmless Harmony, Inc."

Who proposed this? Shouldn't the Harmony CDD as well as the garden
association and all community garden members also be held harmless?

6) "Allocate 10% of our garden beds to interested Harmony employees

and teachers of Harmony schools"

Again, who proposed this? Why Harmony Development employees? Why not
also friends and family of gardeners?

7) "Define the garden as an organic community garden in all
communication, marketing and signage"

This is proposed as the responsibility of the "Town of Harmony". What
does this mean? What is the "Town of Harmony"? Is it the residents,
the CDD, the developer or all together?

8) "Supply water and hose connections"

Shouldn't this read "Supply water and hose connections to each plot"?

9) "Publish a list of organic fertilizers that can be used"

If the "Town of Harmony" is actually the developer, why would we want
the developer to have such a level of control?

10) "Establish additional gardens when the initial garden reaches 90%

capacity of each family maintaining 1 garden bed"

At the meeting I attended a few weeks ago, it was generally understood
that all plots would be 10' x 10' (ie. 100 square feet) and that
gardeners could be allocated multiple plots (ie. garden beds), if
available. Shouldn't this detail be included here?

11) "All Resident Member households will be privileged to vote for any

organizational decisions. For example, By laws, rules, policies,
committee and administration"

Since it is proposed that policies and rules, etc. be decided by
"household vote" rather than individual vote, this should apply to the
scheduling of meetings also, right?

BTW, I think that voting by Doodle is OK for scheduling meetings, but
not for anything else since there appears to be no credible way to
account for Doodle votes.

On Sep 22, 10:41 pm, "Beth Maxim" <bma...@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
> Thanks Dave, I'll print these out for next meeting.
>

>  HarmonyGardenMeetingMinutes_09_21_08.doc
> 69KViewDownload
>
>  HarmonyOrganicCommunityGardenExpectations.doc
> 52KViewDownload

>
> All, attached and below are the meeting notes from yesterday's meeting.
> Please let me know if I have omitted anything or missed any updates. Also,
> does anyone have an issue if I just submit meeting notes as attachments in
> the future when details get lengthy? I think reading an email of this length
> is painful, and it will avoid people having a hard time reading them due to
> formatting issues. On a related note, George, you may be seeing Dave's
> emails with line breaks due to your email settings. In your toolbar, is it
> set to "HTML" or "Plain Text"? Try switching and see what happens. Also,
> when emails are sent or viewed on a blackberry they will typically default
> to plain text.
>
> Greg, I have also submitted as an attachment the "expectation" section of
> our decisions for you to share with the CDD at Thursday's meeting.
>
> I will be setting up a Doodle vote for next week's meeting soon.
>
> HARMONY ORGANIC COMMUNITY GARDEN MEETING MINUTES
>
> September 21, 2008
>
> All decisions and votes taken tonight are provisional. Decisions were made
> to keep things moving forward, and we made great progress. Thank you to all
> who participated!
>
> First order: Committee votes: it was decided that since we don't know
> exactly how much work will be needed by the committee, we will have four
> positions: two co-coordinators, one secretary, and one treasurer. They are
> the following people:
>

> *         Co-coordinators: Pam LeMenager and Dave Leeman
>
> *         Treasurer: Kerul Kassel
>
> *         Secretary: Beth Maxim

>
> We reviewed the responsibilities list Kerul typed up and distributed to the
> group (previously posted to yahoo group). We made minor tweaks to it, and
> the new list is provided below. Please note that this is a living document
> which will require more detail in the future. The current list's purpose is
> to present our high-level requirements to the CDD at their meeting Thursday,
> September 25th, and assure them no interested gardener will be excluded in
> the future.
>
> Harmony Organic Community Garden Mission:
>
> To provide an opportunity for Harmony residents to learn and practice the
> environmentally intelligent values that we espouse; to increase our
> knowledge of and experience with those practices; to deepen our connection
> with the earth and environment through our working in the soil; to be an
> exemplary model for other communities; and to produce delicious food while
> having fun gardening!
>
> Garden Members agree to:
>

> 1.      Maintain our assigned garden beds (water, weed, spray only with

> approved organic sprays) and enforce these requirements so all garden beds
> are an attraction to the community

> 2.      Assign garden beds for a prescribed time period and relinquish a

> garden bed, if needed, to provide equitable garden use

> 3.      Fertilize only with organic fertilizers
> 4.      Attend to and harvest only from our own garden beds
> 5.      Assign a substitute when we are out of town (to water, weed,
> harvest, etc.)
> 6.      Share in the cost of roto-tiller maintenance and fuel
> 7.      Store in and return any available community tools to the garden shed
> 8.      Mulch the garden bed walkways with wood chips provided by Harmony
> Development Company
> 9.      Check with adjacent bed gardeners before planting anything that will

> grow 4-6 feet tall (which prevents shading issues)

> 10.     Allocate beds by lottery should there be more interested gardeners

> than there are garden beds

> 11.     Agree to indemnify, defend and hold harmless Harmony, Inc. from and

> against any damage or injury to any person or any real property arising from
> the gardener's use of the property or the tools provided. The gardener
> agrees to pay for all damages to the property or tools caused by the
> gardener's misuse or neglect of the property or tools.
> (to be signed by all garden Members upon application)

> 12.     Establish and enforce a fair process for obtaining and terminating a
> garden bed
> 13.     Allocate 10% of our garden beds to interested Harmony employees and
> teachers of Harmony schools
> 14.     Maintain any equipment accepted from Harmony Development or the

> Harmony CDD
>
> Garden Members expect the Town of Harmony will be responsible for the
> following:
>

> 1.      Define the garden as an organic community garden in all
> communication, marketing and signage
> 2.      Provide garden beds: initially tilled to start the gardening process
> 3.      Provide fair access to the garden beds (no rental charge)
> 4.      Build a 4-foot fence around the perimeter of the garden to

> discourage rabbits, armadillos, and other garden-eating critters from
> entering the garden area

> 5.      Establish an Organic Community Garden Association to uphold the
> garden upkeep rules
> 6.      Supply water and hose connections
> 7.      Publish a list of organic fertilizers that can be used
> 8.      Purchase a roto-tiller for Community Garden usage
> 9.      Provide a pavilion for shade and use as a gathering place out of the
> sun
> 10.     Offer workshops on Florida gardening and organic gardening by Master
> Gardeners
> 11.     Provide areas for composting
> 12.     Establish additional gardens when the initial garden reaches 90%

> capacity of each family maintaining 1 garden bed
>
> Other provisional decisions that were made at tonight's meeting are:
>
> Harmony Organic Community Garden Membership
>
> The group voted on an annual membership. Members who are in good standing
> (have a well-maintained garden bed(s) and are paid in full) will have
> automatic renewal of their garden bed(s).
>
> Membership tier structure:
>

> A.      Resident Members. These members are residents of Harmony. They

> receive priority for open garden beds when the maximum number of garden beds
> is reached. They have full voting rights and are required to contribute
> maintenance costs, per garden bed, as determined by the Community Garden
> members.

> B.      Non-resident Members. These members are employees of Harmony or of

> the Harmony schools. They have full voting rights and are required to
> contribute maintenance costs, per garden bed, as determined by the Community
> Garden.

> C.      Non-member Guests. These gardeners are included by invitation only

> by vote of the Community Garden members. They are not eligible to vote and
> do not pay costs to use the garden. Examples of these guests include Master
> Gardeners from whom we can learn advanced gardening techniques, and special
> projects for the Harmony schools.
>
> Note that all members and guests must indemnify the Community Garden with
> written signature. School students must have signed permission slips to
> enter the garden.
>
> Voting
>
> We voted to agree on a two-tiered voting structure.
>

> 1.      All Resident Member households will be privileged to vote for any

> organizational decisions. For example, By laws, rules, policies, committee
> and administration
>

> 2.      All Resident Members and Non-resident Members will be privileged to

> 7) Conclude Meeting- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[rescueg...@onebox.com]

Taking George's points in order.

1. At the meeting you attended, I brought up this point, and it was pretty near unanimous that it is within the power of the group to make such a rule and that that was what everyone wanted. That said, it may be that we cannot use the word organic because we are watering with water from Toho, which has so many chemicals in it that you can't drink it without it being filtered first.  This definitely needs to be revisited.

 

2. Everyone had a chance to step up to the plate if they wanted to. Noone else volunteered.  After that, everyone had a chance to vote, either on line or at the meeting.  Seems to me, that should be good enough. That said, if anyone else wants to be included, we can add them to the list of officers. There is plenty of work to go around.

3. & 4.  See above.

 

5. This is a mark of the society we live in today.  Noone does anything without an agreement that they won't be sued. The wording needs to be worked out, but basically the CDD needs a document saying if you hit me over the head with a shovel they won't be sued because it happened on CDD property.

 

6. This came up when Bill Fife asked for a plot. People at the meeting thought it would be a good idea to include people who work in Harmony. As it turns out, Bill didn't want a personal plot, but a plot to use for kids activities. This needs more discussion.  It was my impression that anyone who worked in Harmony could ask for a plot. That may not be what was intended.

 

7. This means that whoever mentions the garden for marketing purposes should use Organic in the name so it is up front and there are no mistakes about what kind of garden it is. See #1 above.

 

8. They must supply a water pipe. How many spigots is up to them.  We may need to put in spigots ourselves if we want more than they are willing to provide. Keep in mind there are, depending on the layout, over 140 plots,  possibly as many as 168.  There is no way for each plot to have it's own pipe.

 

9. The list is a starting piont. They will not "control" the list. The list is able to be changed.  Do you want to do several hours (maybe several days) of research to find good products for us? If they're willing to do this legwork, why wouldn't we let them?  

 

10. It was my understanding that the 90% meant with multiple plots.  I may have been wrong about this. It seems right to me to start the process of finding new land and getting it ready for gardening before anyone has to give up their plots.  If there is that much interest in gardening, the new garden will fill up.

 

11. Voting by doodle is only for scheduling meetings. It was never intended for anything but a scheduler.  As for the two tier voting, that was proposed but not voted on. I'm personally not for it. I have no idea how it's decided which item is an administrative vote and which is an operational vote.  It sounds too complicated.  I propoesd in an earlier post, that 3 ways be considered. All have plusses and minuses.  Choose one and live with it.  I don't think using two systems together will work.
--
David Leeman
rescueg...@onebox.com - email
201-406-0244