Rules Discussions/Reviews

[Rob (BlueDagger)]

Thought I'd toss up a post about things we find out as we play that
were either interesting points of fun things you find as you review
the rules. After playing last night and reviewing rules today here is
some things I found interesting:

Big Ones that came up from our matches last night and I researched
today:

- If Hit by an enemy attack from behind, a friend within 8" is hit, or
an enemy enters your 8" you can use an ARO to turn to face the enemy.
Note you must face the enemy, not just turn to have them in your LoF.

- ARO must always be used against the miniature that caused it (pg 137
main rules under ARO, bolded) .

- If an Order triggers AROs on multiple enemy's you only trigger a
face to face with models that are being affected. AKA if you fire a
sniper at an enemy HMG and trigger AROs from that enemy HMG and his
two sniper buddies, you only trigger a face to face with the HMG.. the
two sniper buddies get their one reactive shots without a face to face
roll.

- If a model is in prone and higher then it's enemy it gains a 3+
cover. To shoot at a prone figure you have to be able to see it's
base, but it doesn't state any restriction to shoot with the prone
model. Someone please find a clarification for this one since it
sounds like if a snipe is up high behind a knee high wall he can shoot
at an enemy model, but can't be fired back upon in return because his
base would obviously not be visible.


Lots of other fun stuff discovered:

- Adhesive Launcher: You roll to hit as normal with the weapon, but
the save is made as a PH roll -6 (ouch) if failed the vehicle is
immobed (not disabled).

-Shotguns: When using standard ammon you place the small teardrop is a
straight line between you and the target with the small end over top
of the target and the large end pointing away from the firer. The
teardrop can not be angled at all and if firing special ammo you do
not get the teardrop template.

-Hack Airborne Deployment: Hackers may try to hack the enemy's
Airborne Deployment craft using a WIP -9 roll. If successful the enemy
must immediately drop them with a PH-9 roll and disperse as per
standard combat jump. Can't ARO this

-EVO Repeater: Jesus these things are just wrong lol.
- Hack Aiborne deployment: Yeah... that -9 to try and hack it goes
to a -6... if successful then the hacker gets to choose where they
immediately combat jump into. That's gonna be messy, though you still
have the -9 PH dispersion so it randomizes where they will hit a bit.
- When hacking you can halve the target's BTS rounding up, possess
a non-combine army tag with only one successful hack order, blow an
order per hacker to combine you hackers into a hack attempt (aka 3
hackers help another hacker hack attack an opposing hacker for a WIP
+9 for 4 orders... that's a dead hacker), or blow one order to give a
+3 to your combat jumping unit (or units if you coordinated jump).
These EVO ability do NOT stack though and you can't use them in ARO.
- If you defensively hack guided ammo with a evo you cause all
further guided ammo aimed at that target to auto-miss. If a different
marker hits the target you will have to reattempt the hack, but the
previous mark is still toast.

- A sniper using a Multi-Sniper rifle that has 2 burst shots suffers
no decrease in shots for using specialty ammo. If using a different
type of MULTI your burst is reduced to two for using specialty ammo.

- If the order and the ARO affect each other (shoot/shoot, shoot/
dodge, etc) then you face to face, but if you do another skill like
Alert you don't have to face to face.


Sooooo many fun things in these rules. I'm like a damn kid in a candy
factory.

[Gobbo]

I am in agreement about a Prone sniper.  That seems dumb.  If you are prone and considered the size of your base, then you can't fire if they can't shoot at you!

It is like being a kid in a candy store!

Twilight is like soccer. They run around for 2 hours, nobody scores, and its billions of fans insist that you just don't understand.

 My Blog: http://gobbosforge.blogspot.com/

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[Robert Brock]

Actually I found the answer if that one. The addendum states that the game has at least a you see me I see you clause so if the sniper fires the model getting shot at can see him and arguably the otherrs in LoF.
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: Gobbo <lee.la...@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2011 21:49:26
To: <frontrang...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIG] Rules Discussions/Reviews

I am in agreement about a Prone sniper.  That seems dumb.  If you are prone and considered the size of your base, then you can't fire if they can't shoot at you!

It is like being a kid in a candy store!

Twilight is like soccer. They run around for 2 hours, nobody scores, and its billions of fans insist that you just don't understand.

 My Blog: http://gobbosforge.blogspot.com/

To post to this group, send email to FrontRang...@googlegroups.com <mailto:FrontRang...@googlegroups.com> .
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[Gobbo]

Cool.  That sounds MUCH better!

Twilight is like soccer. They run around for 2 hours, nobody scores, and its billions of fans insist that you just don't understand.

 My Blog: http://gobbosforge.blogspot.com/

[Jay Button]

Thanks for taking the time to look this up. I knew most of these. I
am sorry if I was not more clear last night. They only thing I would
question is the first point that you made, concerning turning to face
your attacker. Can you tell us where you found that. It sounds like
you are saying that you must turn your model to face directly at your
opponent rather than turning to any facing that would include your
attacker in your line of fire. That doesn't sound right to me.

Thanks!

Jay

On Mar 3, 3:06 pm, Gobbo <lee.langs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Cool.  That sounds MUCH better!
>
> Twilight is like soccer. They run around for 2 hours, nobody scores, and its
> billions of fans insist that you just don't understand.
>
>  My Blog:http://gobbosforge.blogspot.com/
>

> On Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 3:05 PM, Robert Brock <robert_br...@hotmail.com>wrote:
>
>
>
> > Actually I found the answer if that one.  The addendum states that the game
> > has at least a you see me I see you clause so if the sniper fires the model
> > getting shot at can see him and arguably the otherrs in LoF.
> > Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Gobbo <lee.langs...@gmail.com>
> > Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2011 21:49:26
> > To: <frontrang...@googlegroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: [FRIG] Rules Discussions/Reviews
>
> > I am in agreement about a Prone sniper.  That seems dumb.  If you are prone
> > and considered the size of your base, then you can't fire if they can't
> > shoot at you!
>
> > It is like being a kid in a candy store!
>
> > Twilight is like soccer. They run around for 2 hours, nobody scores, and
> > its billions of fans insist that you just don't understand.
>
> >  My Blog:http://gobbosforge.blogspot.com/
>

> >http://groups.google.com/group/FrontRangeInfinity?hl=en.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Gobbo]

I would agree with Jay on that one.  That makes little sense, but I would need a reference point to verify.

Twilight is like soccer. They run around for 2 hours, nobody scores, and its billions of fans insist that you just don't understand.

 My Blog: http://gobbosforge.blogspot.com/

[Rob (BlueDagger)]

PG 133: Zone of Control paragraph 2: "... provided with a reaction an
ARO to turn around and face his enemy." Note it's doesn't state
getting the enemy in LoF but rather to face the opponent and in the
graphic 4 it reference (albeit it a crappy pic) the facing of the
models is designated by a small arrow on the edge of the model if you
look closely and the red arrow is pointed directly at the opposing
player model that triggered the ARO.

PG 157: Change Facing: same reference to ".. face any enemy miniture..
"

There is multiple references to LoF and "seeing" your enemy which is
refered to as the 180 arc, but not facing them. As is real life facing
someone is turning your head to look at someone, at which point your
"seeing" is 180 degrees from the direction you are looking at. There
is no difference in game play between your model turning his head to
"face" his target which would change his "seeing" 180 degree centered
on the enemy and actually turning your model to point at the enemy.

It is a gray area, but the wording leads me to believe you have to
actually face the enemy not just see them.

> > > >http://groups.google.com/group/FrontRangeInfinity?hl=en.-Hide quoted

[Jay Button]

I am sorry, but I can't agree with you on this one, Rob. I don't see
anywhere on page 133 or page 157 where it says you need to face your
model "directly" at the model causing the ARO. Also, I don't think
that you can infer that the model has to face directly at the model
causing the ARO just because the model happens to be doing that in the
illustration on page 134.

You are facing any model in your forward arc.

Jay

On Mar 3, 4:36 pm, "Rob (BlueDagger)" <Robert_Br...@Hotmail.com>
wrote:

> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -

[Gobbo]

I will see what I can find in the rules section of the Infinity forums when I get home.

My common sense is tingling!

[Jay Button]

I think the forums are a good idea. The Corvus Belli guys rarely
post, so you will probably not get an official decision, but it would
be good to get some other people's point of view.

Jay

On Mar 3, 5:43 pm, Gobbo <lee.langs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I will see what I can find in the rules section of the Infinity forums when
> I get home.
>
> My common sense is tingling!

> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>

> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Rob (BlueDagger)]

I'll agree to the ruling since it makes the game less rigid. It's
really grey since they don't define what extactly "facing" is and I
doubt it would effect a whole lot of situations.

> ...
>
> read more »

[Rob (BlueDagger)]

Digging in the rules a bit more to answer the other question by Gobbo,
some other nuggets I researched.

- When attempting to move as an ARO you still must pass a PH roll
since they are treated as a dodge. That could have made a different in
my dancing Jay lol. PG 137 "...ARO is considered as a Dodge (See
Dodging below) and will
require a Normal or Face to Face Roll of PH against the corresponding
Attribute."

- Reset short skill can only remove the immobilized effect derived
from hack attacks. Adhesive ammo immobilization must be cleared by a
Engineer, however the TAG can still use a skill like alert and still
contributes an order. PG 154 "The T.A.G. can get rid of the
Immobilization by Hacking or Possession when its original player takes
his next Active turn. To do so, it must perform a Reset Short Skill."

- There is no clear precedence on which take place first in a
coordinated order with MULTI B3-4 weapons. I'll post this up in the
forums and look for a hit. It work as either:
a: You trigger the burst order, you get halved due to the
coordinated order to 2 then select the special ammo and stay at 2.
b: You trigger the burst order, select the special ammo and drop
to 2 and firing is halved down to 1.


On Mar 3, 11:12 pm, "Rob (BlueDagger)" <Robert_Br...@Hotmail.com>

> ...
>
> read more »

[Rob (BlueDagger)]

For the B3-4 with MULTI I got a great response of:
It halves the Burst of the weapon you actually shoot. You shoot a
rifle with SPECIAL amunition chosen, so it halves the SPECIAL ammo you
shoot, not the un-shot normal ammo.

I concede that it halves the weapon profile you choose, not just the
rifle as a whole. Thanks Jay :)

On Mar 16, 4:04 pm, "Rob (BlueDagger)" <Robert_Br...@Hotmail.com>

> ...
>
> read more »

[Jay Button]

Cool. Thanks for looking into this, Rob! I posted on the Infinity
forums a few days ago about Resetting a TAG immobilized by ADH and you
are right, it has to be done by an engineer. A TAG cannot reset
itself after being immobilized by ADH. That makes ADH really good.

Jay

On Mar 16, 4:59 pm, "Rob (BlueDagger)" <Robert_Br...@Hotmail.com>

[Robert Brock]

Hehe if you land the shot before getting liquified by the tag. :)

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[Jay Button]

lol There is always that little problem! =D

[Rob (BlueDagger)]

Bah, we played this one wrong too Jay.

"If an enemy enters a Zone of Control, but is behind an obstacle that
does not allow LoF to be drawn (For example a high wall or the
interior of a house) a miniature is only provided with an Automatic
Reaction Order to turn around and face his enemy. The figure is
considered to have heard some noise and is turning towards its
direction."

> ...
>
> read more »

[Jay Button]

Good to know. A lot of times, players want to take a move short
skill.

Jay

On Mar 17, 10:29 am, "Rob (BlueDagger)" <Robert_Br...@Hotmail.com>
wrote:

[Gobbo]

Very good to know about that one.  Can a hacker make a hack ARO with out LOS in that situation?

My common sense is tingling!

[Rob (BlueDagger)]

I don't believe you can hack unless it's in response to something the
enemy is doing in you ZC. I really don't know so I'll have to get back
to you on that since there is a lot of pieces to the ARO with no LoF
puzzle that I have to piece together. There is also conflicting
paragraphs I believe.

On Mar 17, 11:40 am, Gobbo <lee.langs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Very good to know about that one.  Can a hacker make a hack ARO with out LOS
> in that situation?
>
> My common sense is tingling!

> ...
>
> read more »

[Robert Brock]

Actually nm, that is in the addendum. Hacking can't be used in the ARO

On Mar 17, 2011 10:57 AM, "Jay Button" <jayb...@gmail.com <mailto:jayb...@gmail.com> > wrote:
> Good to know. A lot of times, players want to take a move short
> skill.
>
> Jay
>
> On Mar 17, 10:29 am, "Rob (BlueDagger)" <Robert_Br...@Hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>> Bah, we played this one wrong too Jay.
>>
>> "If an enemy enters a Zone of Control, but is behind an obstacle that
>> does not allow LoF to be drawn (For example a high wall or the
>> interior of a house) a miniature is only provided with an Automatic
>> Reaction Order to turn around and face his enemy. The figure is
>> considered to have heard some noise and is turning towards its
>> direction."
>>

>> On Mar 16, 10:52 pm, Jay Button <jaybut...@gmail.com <mailto:jaybut...@gmail.com> > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > lol There is always that little problem!  =D
>>

>> > >  > > > On Mar 3, 6:13 pm, Jay Button <jaybut...@gmail.com <mailto:jaybut...@gmail.com> > wrote:
>>
>> > >  > > > > I think the forums are a good idea.  The Corvus Belli guys rarely
>> > >  > > > > post, so you will probably not get an official decision, but it would
>> > >  > > > > be good to get some other people's point of view.
>>
>> > >  > > > > Jay
>>

>> > >  > > > > On Mar 3, 5:43 pm, Gobbo <lee.langs...@gmail.com <mailto:lee.langs...@gmail.com> > wrote:
>>
>> > >  > > > > > I will see what I can find in the rules section of the Infinity forums when
>> > >  > > > > > I get home.
>>
>> > >  > > > > > My common sense is tingling!

>> > >  > > > > > >> On Mar 3, 3:34 pm, Gobbo <lee.langs...@gmail.com <mailto:lee.langs...@gmail.com> > wrote:
>>
>> > >  > > > > > >> > I would agree with Jay on that one.  That makes little sense, but I
>> > >  > > > > > would
>> > >  > > > > > >> > need a reference point to verify.
>>
>> > >  > > > > > >> > Twilight is like soccer. They run around for 2 hours, nobody scores,
>> > >  > > > > > and its
>> > >  > > > > > >> > billions of fans insist that you just don't understand.
>>
>> > >  > > > > > >> >  My Blog:http://gobbosforge.blogspot.com/
>>

>> > >  > > > > > >> > On Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 3:32 PM, Jay Button <jaybut...@gmail.com <mailto:jaybut...@gmail.com> > wrote:
>> > >  > > > > > >> > > Thanks for taking the time to look this up.  I knew most of these.  I
>> > >  > > > > > >> > > am sorry if I was not more clear last night.  They only thing I would
>> > >  > > > > > >> > > question is the first point that you made, concerning turning to face
>> > >  > > > > > >> > > your attacker.  Can you tell us where you found that.  It sounds like
>> > >  > > > > > >> > > you are saying that you must turn your model to face directly at your
>> > >  > > > > > >> > > opponent rather than turning to any facing that would include your
>> > >  > > > > > >> > > attacker in your line of fire.  That doesn't sound right to me.
>>
>> > >  > > > > > >> > > Thanks!
>>
>> > >  > > > > > >> > > Jay
>>

>> > >  > > > > > >> > > On Mar 3, 3:06 pm, Gobbo <lee.langs...@gmail.com <mailto:lee.langs...@gmail.com> > wrote:
>> > >  > > > > > >> > > > Cool.  That sounds MUCH better!
>>
>> > >  > > > > > >> > > > Twilight is like soccer. They run around for 2 hours, nobody
>> > >  > > > > > scores, and
>> > >  > > > > > >> > > its
>> > >  > > > > > >> > > > billions of fans insist that you just don't understand.
>>
>> > >  > > > > > >> > > >  My Blog:http://gobbosforge.blogspot.com/
>>
>> > >  > > > > > >> > > > On Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 3:05 PM, Robert Brock <
>>

>> > >  > > > > > robert_br...@hotmail.com <mailto:robert_br...@hotmail.com>

>>
>> > >  > > > > > >> > > >wrote:
>>
>> > >  > > > > > >> > > > > Actually I found the answer if that one.  The addendum states
>> > >  > > > > > that the
>> > >  > > > > > >> > > game
>> > >  > > > > > >> > > > > has at least a you see me I see you clause so if the sniper fires
>> > >  > > > > > the
>> > >  > > > > > >> > > model
>> > >  > > > > > >> > > > > getting shot at can see him and arguably the otherrs in LoF.
>> > >  > > > > > >> > > > > Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>>
>> > >  > > > > > >> > > > > -----Original Message-----
>> > >  > > > > > >> > > > > From: Gobbo <lee.langs...@gmail.com <mailto:lee.langs...@gmail.com> >
>> > >  > > > > > >> > > > > Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2011 21:49:26
>> > >  > > > > > >> > > > > To: <frontrang...@googlegroups.com <mailto:frontrang...@googlegroups.com> >
>> > >  > > > > > >> > > > > Subject: Re: [FRIG] Rules Discussions/Reviews
>>
>> > >  > > > > > >> > > > > I am in agreement about a Prone sniper.  That seems dumb.  If you
>> > >  > > > > > are
>> > >  > > > > > >> > > prone
>> > >  > > > > > >> > > > > and considered the size of your base, then you can't fire if they
>> > >  > > > > > can't
>> > >  > > > > > >> > > > > shoot at you!
>>

>> > >  > > > > > >> > > > > It is like being a kid in a candy store!
>>

>> > >  > > > > > >> > > > > Twilight is like soccer. They run around for 2 hours, nobody
>> > >  > > > > > scores,
>> > >  > > > > > >> > > and
>> > >  > > > > > >> > > > > its billions of fans insist that you just don't understand.
>>
>> > >  > > > > > >> > > > >  My Blog:http://gobbosforge.blogspot.com/
>>

>> > >  > > > > > >> > > > > On Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 1:18 PM, Rob (BlueDagger) <

>> > >  > > > > > >> > > Robert_Br...@hotmail.com <mailto:Robert_Br...@hotmail.com> <mailto:

>> > >  > > > >
>>
>> ...
>>
>> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
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[Gobbo]

Oh man!  That sucks!

My common sense is tingling!

[Rob (BlueDagger)]

Bah reverse that statement, you CAN use hacking as an ARO. The FAQ is
poorly written in it change and means to list Hacking and Airborne
deployment to it's list of long skills, but rather looks like it's
adding them to non-ARO.

again, yes, you can hack as an ARO since it falls under using a piece
of equipment.

On Mar 17, 12:35 pm, Gobbo <lee.langs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Oh man!  That sucks!
>
> My common sense is tingling!

> On Mar 17, 2011 12:08 PM, "Robert Brock" <robert_br...@hotmail.com> wrote:> Actually nm, that is in the addendum. Hacking can't be used in the ARO

[Gobbo]

WOO HOO!  I didn't cheat at the tournament!  [not that I won that round, but still...]

Twilight is like soccer. They run around for 2 hours, nobody scores, and its billions of fans insist that you just don't understand.

 My Blog: http://gobbosforge.blogspot.com/

[Rob (BlueDagger)]

Found a great document out there http://www.ludusbellorum.com/uploads/1300531654.pdf

Bundles together all of the FAQ stuff that has been discussed on the
boards but isn't in the "Official" FAQ. I guess it would be an INAT of
sorts for Inifnity

On Mar 17, 4:07 pm, Gobbo <lee.langs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> WOO HOO!  I didn't cheat at the tournament!  [not that I won that round, but
> still...]
>
> Twilight is like soccer. They run around for 2 hours, nobody scores, and its
> billions of fans insist that you just don't understand.
>
>  My Blog:http://gobbosforge.blogspot.com/
>
> On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 2:45 PM, Rob (BlueDagger)

> <Robert_Br...@hotmail.com>wrote:

[Jay Button]

I would be cautious with this "FAQ." It is written by a guy on the
Infinity forums called PsycoticStorm. Not everyone agrees with his
interpretation of the rules, particularly how he interprets the Cover.

Jay

On Mar 18, 11:49 am, "Rob (BlueDagger)" <Robert_Br...@Hotmail.com>
wrote:
> Found a great document out therehttp://www.ludusbellorum.com/uploads/1300531654.pdf

> > >http://groups.google.com/group/FrontRangeInfinity?hl=en.- Hide quoted text -

[Robert Brock]

Ah good to know, I'll have a sit down when I have a chance and hash through it. Skimming through it most stuff looked good, but so does INAT which has blainted rules changes

Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: Jay Button <jayb...@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 17:55:06
To: <FrontRang...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [FRIG] Re: Rules Discussions/Reviews

[Jay Button]

I use it as reference material when I have a rules question. The
problem with it is that it was written by one guy who has kind of
appointed himself as the Infinity answer man. And like I said before,
not everyone agrees with him. In fact most people disagree with him
on several issues, like Cover.

Jay

> > > >http://groups.google.com/group/FrontRangeInfinity?hl=en.-Hide quoted text -

>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
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[Gobbo]

I agree Jay.  It is just the way he sees the game not how the majority see it.

My common sense is tingling!

[Rob (BlueDagger)]

Ah HA! I knew I wasn't losing my mind, camo units do get a sneak
attack if they a cloaked when shooting.

Combat Camouflage: This allows a miniature in a camouflaged state to
make a BS, Forward Observer, Sepsitor or Hacking attack before his
opponent does. This attack is made with a Normal Roll. If the
adversary survives the attack, he may then make any attacks he may
have declared in ARO which are also made as Normal Rolls, with -3 to
BS if shooting at the revealed figure. After this, the player will
have to replace the Camouflage Marker with the correct figure. Combat
Camouflage is only available for use in ranged attacks.

This is known by any miniture with camouflage

On Mar 18, 11:49 am, "Rob (BlueDagger)" <Robert_Br...@Hotmail.com>
wrote:
> Found a great document out therehttp://www.ludusbellorum.com/uploads/1300531654.pdf

[Jay Button]

Cool! Thanks! What page is that on?

Jay

On Mar 18, 9:53 pm, "Rob (BlueDagger)" <Robert_Br...@Hotmail.com>
wrote:

> > > >http://groups.google.com/group/FrontRangeInfinity?hl=en.- Hide quoted text -

[Robert Brock]

It's on the infinity wiki so not exactly sure lol

Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: Jay Button <jayb...@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 04:49:13
To: <FrontRang...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [FRIG] Re: Rules Discussions/Reviews