Response to Lahry (Eternal Torment refuted)

[Harold Kupp]

Hello Lahry,


Lahry Sibley (LS) wrote:

> Question? Who are these people? Where do they live? How long will they live?
> Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the >tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
>

Harold Kupp (HK) replied:

Of course, these are those who receive eternal life. Here only those
who keep God's commandments have right to the tree of life.

LS
> Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and >idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
>

HK
These are those who are condemned to destruction. The wrath of God
abides on them.


LS
>
> Another question, please?
>
> Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
>
> Jesus is of course talking about the sheep and the goats here. But the words >"everlasting" and "eternal" in the KJV are in the Greek one and the same word. >Would >JESUS Himself lie? Is He not clearly stating that those in punishment >and the righteous (>in Christ) live without end? What applies to one must surely >apply to the other. If you twist this, then the whole of scripture is worthless. You >might just as well write your own book or just toss it all together, and live >according to the dictates of the flesh.


HK

I will give you my understanding of your question: Both the
punishment and the reward are eternal. That is why the punishment
is called the second death there is nothing more eternal than
death. First punished in the lake of fire then eternal death.

Quote:
" This verse admittedly uses the phrase "eternal punishment," but
it is juxtaposed against the phrase "eternal life." Death by
annihilation in the Lake of Fire could certainly be called "eternal
punishment" because it is eternal in its consequences. Death on earth
is only temporal because everyone will be raised again at the
resurrection. Death in the Lake of Fire, however, is eternal: there is
no reversing it and no coming back from it. "

JM

The consequences for both groups are eternal - one eternal life - the
other eternal death.

Lahry, if one believes in the immortality of the soul from birth then
the soul can only end up in one of two places. It will live forever
in hell or heaven. We agree on that.

However, the assumption that the soul has eternal life from the moment
of birth (or before) is directly contrary to many verses which demand
that assumption cannot be true. For example:

Matt 19:16—"And someone came to Him and said, 'Teacher, what good
thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?'"

Matt 19:29-30—"And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters
or father or mother or children or farms for My name's sake, will
receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life."

John 3:16—"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten
Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal
life."

John 3:36—"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who
does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides
on him."

John 5:24—"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and
believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into
judgment, but has passed out of death into life."

John 6:40—"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who
beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I
Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47—"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal
life."

John 6:54—"He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life,
and I will raise him up on the last day."

John 10:28—"and I give eternal life to them, [ the sheep] and they
will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."

Rom 5:21—"so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign
through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Rom 6:23—"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is
eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Gal 6:8—"For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh
reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the
Spirit reap eternal life."

1 John 3:15—"Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you
know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."

1 John 5:11—"And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal
life, and this life is in His Son."

1Jn 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the
Son of God hath not life


Lahry every one of those verses demand that eternal life is something
not given to all. It is given to specific individuals under certain
circumstances.

If even one verse proves that every person does not have eternal life
from birth then the doctrine of "immortality of the soul" is wrong.
If wrong then the doctrine of Eternal Torment for all who do not
believe and repent must also be wrong because it is predicated on the
assumption that all live people forever.

For example - If no murderer has eternal life abiding in him how could
he be punished for eternity - He does not have eternal life!

LS

>
> Harold, be careful. You are setting yourself against what Yah'shua Himself >declared,after going to great length to illustrate HIS judgement and division upon the >nations.
>
>
> Now, you keep asking "how can God", which communicates to me, "help me >understand". So what I'm hearing is that you cannot accept or believe what you do not >understand. To me, that is to bring God down to the level of man. This is a huge mistake >made by millions of people the world over and from the beginning of time.
>

HK

The scriptures state that God will judge with righteous judgment
according to our deeds.

Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up
unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the
righteous judgment of God;

Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for
glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:


HK

Lahry, if God were to mete out the same punishment for those who
committed few sins and those who lived terrible lives - serial
murderers, baby rapers etc. it would not be righteous judgment. If
Hitler and the person who never even heard of God both were sentenced
to never ending torture there is no righteous judgment.

Jesus taught us the principle of descending levels of punishment when
he said:

Luk 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh
not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in
sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared
not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with
many stripes.

Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of
stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.

Punishment according to ones deeds is righteous judgment. If all in
this parable were punished the same it would not be righteous
judgment.

LS
>
> Romans 1:20 For ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature and >attributes, that is, His eternal power and divinity, have been made intelligible and >clearly discernible in and through the things that have been made (His handiworks). So >[men] are without excuse [altogether without any defense or justification],(B)
> 21Because when they knew and recognized Him as God, they did not honor and >glorify Him as God or give Him thanks. But instead they became futile and [c]godless >in their thinking [with vain imaginings, foolish reasoning, and stupid speculations] and >their senseless minds were darkened.
> 22Claiming to be wise, they became fools [professing to be smart, they made >simpletons of themselves].
> 23And by them the glory and majesty and excellence of the immortal God were >exchanged for and represented by images, resembling mortal man and birds and beasts >and reptiles.
>
> So your concerns about those who heard not the Gospel are clearly addressed here, are they not?

HK
Lahry, this passage does not speak of God being righteous to forever
torture those of his creation who had never heard the gospel.
However, It does give the reason why God would be righteous to condemn
them to death. Mankind has enough information to be punished for
things they knew were evil by their own conscience.

That is exactly what Paul meant when he said:

Rom 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art
that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest
thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

Rom 2:2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to
truth against them which commit such things.

Rom 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do
such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment
of God?

The man who says it is wrong to steal from him and then steals from
another has condemned himself. Condemned to the righteous judgment of
being punished in the lake of fire until God's justice is satisfied
and then eternal destruction. Some will burn more - some less, if
all burned the same it would not be according to the principles Jesus
taught.

Brother Lahry - we both know that the mind is like a parachute - they
must be open to work. I hope that you will read these verses again
with an open mind, one willing to say "Lord show me if this is
true." If a mind is shut then nothing anyone can say...nothing Jesus
or the apostles have said... much less what I have said, can
penetrate a closed mind.

Neither your mind nor mine.... :-)



Harold

[Harold Kupp]

LAHRY replies:

> As I understand it, immortality is different that eternal life.

OK Lahry OK - prove that immortality is different than eternal
life. If you cannot prove that immortality is something
different
than eternal life then what you claim to be your "understanding" is
meaningless.
It seems to me that without without unequivocal proof It is simply
your way
of avoiding saying "I am wrong".

Lahry your credibility is in question - if you cannot prove from
Scripture that "immortality" means something different from "eternal
life" what are we to think? You could start by explaining why people
must "put on" immortality if they already have immortality?

Paul wrote:

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this
mortal MUST PUT ON *immortality*.

1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption,
and this mortal SHALL HAVE PUT ON *immortality,* then shall be brought
to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

The Greek word translated "immortality" is "G122 deathlessness: -
immortality." Deathlessness - we shall never die. Lahry that sounds
like eternal life to me. What do you think? Is deathlessness
different than eternal life as you "understand it"?

Harold

QUOTE: (Immortality)

However, in the entire Bible, there is not a single verse that records
anything to the affect that "everyone has eternal life; it's only a
matter of where each will spend it." Yet this is what most of the
church today believes.

The same can be said of words like "immortality." This word appears
five times in the Bible, and in each one, it is said only of God or of
the righteous.

Rom 2:6-7—"[God] will render to each person according to his deeds: to
those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and
immortality, eternal life..."

1 Cor 15:53—"For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and
this mortal must put on immortality."

1 Tim 6:15-16—"He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of
kings and Lord of lords, who alone possesses immortality..."

Contrary, to popular opinion, the Bible never says that all people are
born with an immortal soul. It says instead that only God has
immortality, and He blesses whom He chooses with the gift of eternal
life. LM

[Al]

Hi Guys;
I learned a long time ago that it was better to be wrong and
righteous than to right and left.
God Bless
Al

[Harold Kupp]

Hi Al -

You learned well about being wrong - the righteous part is still a
work in progress.

Does it hurt to sit on the fence?


Harold

[Harold Kupp]

Hello Lahry,

You said: "Mr. Pink breaks forth a great cloud of witnesses and
teachings:


Lahry here is what Mr. Pink states:

As used in Scripture the words "destroy," "destruction," "perish" etc.
never signify cessation of existence.

Lahry we need not read another word from Pink to know that he is not
speaking truth. Will you listen to this Calvinist or to the word of
God:

Sodom was destroyed by eternal fire - does it still exist? Does the
word destroy signify the "cessation of existence" of Sodom. ?

Gen 13:10 (This was before the LORD destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.)

Gen 19:29 So it was that, when God destroyed the cities of the
valley,

Gen 18:28 And he said, "I will not destroy it if I find forty-five
there."

Gen 19:13 For we are about to destroy this place,... and the LORD
has sent us to destroy it."

God destroyed Sodom with eternal fire just as He will destroy all who
have not repented with eternal fire:

Jud 1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which
likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire,
serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Then Pink deliberately or ignorantly misrepresents the truth about
Annihilation:

One of these inventions is the theory that at death the wicked pass
into oblivion, and that after their resurrection and judgment at the
Great White Throne, they are annihilated in the Lake of
Fire. ....Scripture speaks of the "punishment" and "torment" of the
wicked; but any one can see that annihilation is not these!

Lahry you know that is not true. The view of Annihilation is that the
condemned are judged, tormented until God's justice is satisfied and
then destroyed. That is completely different than no punishment at
all other than being annihilated.

Why would you refer me to a man who directly contradicts the testimony
of the Scriptures to prove anything? The disgusting thing is no
matter what proof I offer you merely ignore it and kiss the false
teachers who led you astray for 40 years. Will you admit that Pink
was wrong - I doubt it.

I have looked at all of the arguments - pro and con while you
present only those which support your pagan doctrine of "immortality
of the soul" which was never taught by Jesus, the apostles or the Old
Testament.

Again, you do not have the slightest bit of discernment. Pink is a
Calvinist. The Calvinist has no need to worry about Eternal Torment
because God has chosen them for salvation. No matter how much sin
they commit the Calvinist never has to be concerned about burning
forever.

The Calvinist doctrine is the ultimate insult to the Character of
God. According to them God has deliberately created the vast majority
of mankind to be tortured for eternity knowing that He did not choose
them to have salvation.

Harold

[adoblessed]

Hi HK, in one of your comments you talked about "second death" well,
I've read that the second death for ancient jewish was in the Gehenna.
In this place were put all the garbage and they thought that those
people who were bad, in any way, should also perish in this place, it
was not literally a second death but figurative. Plus, these ancient
jewish didn't believe that souls perish because they only believe that
a human being has spirit and body. The soul according to the hebrew
language it's only the feeling part of a person [ Nephesh (נֶפֶש) ]

[Harold Kupp]

Hi,

In Christian understanding the second death occurs at judgment when
all who are not written in the book of life are cast into the lake of
fire.

Do you think all will be tormented for eternity?

Thanks,

Harold

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is
the second death.

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