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Harold Kupp
Jan 2, 2011, 1:52:55 PM1/2/11
to Sabbath Keepers Forum
Hello Monarchman,
Since you now know that you did not understand my view of the lake
of fire I hope you will be as quick to apologize as you were to
condemn...
Harold
***************************************************************************************
Hello monarchman:
You have not understood what I have said. All mankind who have not
believed and repented will be sent to the lake of fire to be punished
according for their deeds then they will be destroyed.
Is that not enough wrath for you? Torture in the lake of fire then
cease to exist forever?
Harold
Please see the new thread with Lahry.
monarkman
Jan 3, 2011, 1:50:17 PM1/3/11
to Sabbath Keepers Forum
Yeah maybe I misunderstood, please forgive me if I did. Cease to
exist forever....are you really sure about that?????
Help me understand the "cease to exist forever" part.....anyone
recieves mark of the beast, they will be tormented forever and ever,
with no rets. REV 14:11 In Matthew 25:41 Jesus says that people will
be cast into the same everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his
angels. Back to Revelation, in 20:10 speaking of this everlasting
fire again, says: " tomeneted day and night forever and ever" Back
to Matthew 25:46 .....into everlasting punishment" etc, etc.
Not trying to beat a dead horse here with these very grim passages,
but to say the wicked will be tortured then cease to exist, how do you
arrive at that? Perhaps I am missing something. All I am saying is if
the Holy Spirit revealed that the wicked will be pounished forever and
ever, then that is what we need to profess and teach.
My parents were JW's for many years and believe that God would never
torment someone forever and ever, they say that God is a devil who
would do that. My parents reject the Word, and the reason I have
serached the scriptures regarding what happens to people should they
die rejecting God, is my concern for the lost, and I tremble to think
my parents dying and having to go where God has foretold and promised
the unsaved would go.
My intentions were not to offend you, I am just real passionate. Tghe
unsaved need to know that they will be tormented forever lest they
fail to repent and perish in the lake of eternal fire.
Grace be with you,
Monarkman
exist forever....are you really sure about that?????
Help me understand the "cease to exist forever" part.....anyone
recieves mark of the beast, they will be tormented forever and ever,
with no rets. REV 14:11 In Matthew 25:41 Jesus says that people will
be cast into the same everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his
angels. Back to Revelation, in 20:10 speaking of this everlasting
fire again, says: " tomeneted day and night forever and ever" Back
to Matthew 25:46 .....into everlasting punishment" etc, etc.
Not trying to beat a dead horse here with these very grim passages,
but to say the wicked will be tortured then cease to exist, how do you
arrive at that? Perhaps I am missing something. All I am saying is if
the Holy Spirit revealed that the wicked will be pounished forever and
ever, then that is what we need to profess and teach.
My parents were JW's for many years and believe that God would never
torment someone forever and ever, they say that God is a devil who
would do that. My parents reject the Word, and the reason I have
serached the scriptures regarding what happens to people should they
die rejecting God, is my concern for the lost, and I tremble to think
my parents dying and having to go where God has foretold and promised
the unsaved would go.
My intentions were not to offend you, I am just real passionate. Tghe
unsaved need to know that they will be tormented forever lest they
fail to repent and perish in the lake of eternal fire.
Grace be with you,
Monarkman
On Jan 2, 1:52 pm, Harold Kupp <hk...@charter.net> wrote:
> Hello Monarchman,
>
> Since you now know that you did not understand my view of the lake
> of fire I hope you will be as quick to apologize as you were to
> condemn...
>
> Harold
>
> ***************************************************************************************
> Hello Monarchman,
>
> Since you now know that you did not understand my view of the lake
> of fire I hope you will be as quick to apologize as you were to
> condemn...
>
> Harold
>
Harold Kupp
Jan 3, 2011, 7:23:56 PM1/3/11
to Sabbath Keepers Forum
Hello monarchman, Thanks for your reply. It is a pleasure to talk to
an honest man. I will answer your comments below.
On Jan 3, 10:50 am, monarkman <midcentury...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yeah maybe I misunderstood, please forgive me if I did. Cease to
> exist forever....are you really sure about that?????
I am as certain of that as I am that destroy means destroy and death
means death - not eternal life.
> Help me understand the "cease to exist forever" part.....anyone
> recieves mark of the beast, they will be tormented forever and ever,
> with no rets. REV 14:11
Yes, "they" will be tormented for ever and ever. That is all the
verse says.
In Matthew 25:41 Jesus says that people will
> be cast into the same everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his
> angels. Back to Revelation, in 20:10 speaking of this everlasting
> fire again, says: " tomeneted day and night forever and ever" Back
> to Matthew 25:46 .....into everlasting punishment" etc, etc.
The fire is everlasting - it is the same eternal fire which destroyed
Sodom - will destroy the earth when Jesus returns and will punish and
destroy all mankind according to their deeds. The fire is eternal
the torture is not.
means destruction. To say that mankind will burn forever is to
ignore the plain meaning of those words and say they mean something
else.
> Perhaps I am missing something. All I am saying is if
> the Holy Spirit revealed that the wicked will be pounished forever and
> ever, then that is what we need to profess and teach.
I agree - just tell me where the Scriptures explicitly say that and I
will profess it.
The doctrine of the "Immortality of the soul" was never taught by
Jesus, the apostles or the Old Testament. The source is Greek
philosophy (Plato) etc. which crept into the church - see Augustine.
>
> My parents were JW's for many years and believe that God would never
> torment someone forever and ever, they say that God is a devil who
> would do that. My parents reject the Word, and the reason I have
> serached the scriptures regarding what happens to people should they
> die rejecting God, is my concern for the lost, and I tremble to think
> my parents dying and having to go where God has foretold and promised
> the unsaved would go.
Yes the unsaved will go - be punished according to their deeds and
then destroyed forever. There is no punishment more eternal than
death.
- one at a time.
>
> Grace be with you,
> Monarkman
And with you,
Harold
an honest man. I will answer your comments below.
On Jan 3, 10:50 am, monarkman <midcentury...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yeah maybe I misunderstood, please forgive me if I did. Cease to
> exist forever....are you really sure about that?????
means death - not eternal life.
> Help me understand the "cease to exist forever" part.....anyone
> recieves mark of the beast, they will be tormented forever and ever,
> with no rets. REV 14:11
verse says.
In Matthew 25:41 Jesus says that people will
> be cast into the same everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his
> angels. Back to Revelation, in 20:10 speaking of this everlasting
> fire again, says: " tomeneted day and night forever and ever" Back
> to Matthew 25:46 .....into everlasting punishment" etc, etc.
Sodom - will destroy the earth when Jesus returns and will punish and
destroy all mankind according to their deeds. The fire is eternal
the torture is not.
>
> Not trying to beat a dead horse here with these very grim passages,
> but to say the wicked will be tortured then cease to exist, how do you
> arrive at that?
The second death means death - destroy means destroy - destruction
> Not trying to beat a dead horse here with these very grim passages,
> but to say the wicked will be tortured then cease to exist, how do you
> arrive at that?
means destruction. To say that mankind will burn forever is to
ignore the plain meaning of those words and say they mean something
else.
> Perhaps I am missing something. All I am saying is if
> the Holy Spirit revealed that the wicked will be pounished forever and
> ever, then that is what we need to profess and teach.
will profess it.
The doctrine of the "Immortality of the soul" was never taught by
Jesus, the apostles or the Old Testament. The source is Greek
philosophy (Plato) etc. which crept into the church - see Augustine.
>
> My parents were JW's for many years and believe that God would never
> torment someone forever and ever, they say that God is a devil who
> would do that. My parents reject the Word, and the reason I have
> serached the scriptures regarding what happens to people should they
> die rejecting God, is my concern for the lost, and I tremble to think
> my parents dying and having to go where God has foretold and promised
> the unsaved would go.
then destroyed forever. There is no punishment more eternal than
death.
>
> My intentions were not to offend you, I am just real passionate. Tghe
> unsaved need to know that they will be tormented forever lest they
> fail to repent and perish in the lake of eternal fire.
No offended at all... If you want we can discuss any verse in detail
> My intentions were not to offend you, I am just real passionate. Tghe
> unsaved need to know that they will be tormented forever lest they
> fail to repent and perish in the lake of eternal fire.
- one at a time.
>
> Grace be with you,
> Monarkman
Harold
monarkman
Jan 4, 2011, 3:46:11 PM1/4/11
to Sabbath Keepers Forum
Thank you for your patience in answering. I will definetly become a
Berean and dig deeper. I appreciate your time and response.
Grace be with you,
William
Berean and dig deeper. I appreciate your time and response.
Grace be with you,
William
Harold Kupp
Jan 4, 2011, 5:59:44 PM1/4/11
to Sabbath Keepers Forum
Hi Monarchman.
You will quickly see that the idea that everyone has eternal life is
preposterous. One really need go further than this verse:
1 John 3:15—"Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you
know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."
If even one verse proves that every person does not have eternal life
from birth then the doctrine of "immortality of the soul" is wrong.
If wrong then the doctrine of Eternal Torment for all who do not
believe and repent must also be wrong because it is predicated on the
assumption that all live people forever.
For example - If no murderer has eternal life abiding in him how could
he be punished for eternity - He does not have eternal life!
Harold
You will quickly see that the idea that everyone has eternal life is
preposterous. One really need go further than this verse:
1 John 3:15—"Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you
know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."
If even one verse proves that every person does not have eternal life
from birth then the doctrine of "immortality of the soul" is wrong.
If wrong then the doctrine of Eternal Torment for all who do not
believe and repent must also be wrong because it is predicated on the
assumption that all live people forever.
For example - If no murderer has eternal life abiding in him how could
he be punished for eternity - He does not have eternal life!
Harold
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