TAKEN IN (Eternal Torment)
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Harold Kupp
Dec 28, 2010, 11:26:41 AM12/28/10
to Sabbath Keepers Forum
Brother Lahry writes:
"You are accursed and will burn in HELL for all eternity."
I was a bit surprised - most Sabbath keepers have moved towards the
annihilation view of Hell. Here is my thinking on the question of
eternal torment or eternal destruction.
Over the years I have seen a phenomenon which I call the
Eternal ...Torment Syndrome.
Many people who have been taught and accepted the idea of eternal
torment in hell for all who are not "saved" are victims of Modern
Christian teaching. Imagine a mother who believes her children will be
writing in torment a million years from now. Since she cannot bear the
thought she tries to find something which will lower the threshold of
salvation to the point that her children who continue to commit sin
will be delivered from hell.
The result is the modern Christian doctrines which eliminate the
necessity of obedience to the ten commandments. Some have the
threshold of salvation so low that if someone says they believe in
Jesus they are not only saved but cannot be lost - even if they were
to late reject Christ completely.
For example:
Here are some quotes from Charles Stanley who is the senior pastor of
megachurch First Baptist Church Atlanta in northern Atlanta, Georgia.
He is the founder and president of In Touch Ministries. Stanley also
served two terms as president of the Southern Baptist Convention from
1984-1986.
"The Bible clearly teaches that God's love for His people is of such
magnitude that even
those who walk away from the faith have not the slightest chance of
slipping from His hand." p. 74
"The apostle's meaning is evident. Even if a believer for all
practical purposes becomes an unbeliever, his salvation is not in
jeopardy. Christ will remain faithful." p.93
"And last, believers who lose or abandon their faith will retain their
salvation, for God remains faithful." p. 94.
This is a very appealing and comforting doctrine to someone whose
relatives or children have died as a sinner but claimed to believe in
Jesus.
If someone believes in Eternal Torment is told that we must obey God
or be lost they immediately think that if that is true then all of
their loved ones (dead or alive) who commit sin are or will be
tortured for eternity. Since that consequence is impossible to bear
they seek a teaching that gives them relief such as once saved always
saved.
To think that our loved ones will punished and then cease to exist is
hard to bear but not impossible. To accept they are burning forever is
unthinkable.
So those Christians who believe in Eternal Torment are forced to seek
Eternal Security at the lowest possible level of obligation. Ideally
their loved ones will not burn if they have ever just said the sinners
prayer and then go on with their lives pretty much as before. And for
the most part that is just what Modern Christianity gives them.
Lahry to me the most powerful argument against Eternal Torment is that
it would make God a cruel tyrant who caused people to burn for
eternity even though they never had a choice. It would mean God
created souls which had no other destiny except eternal torture.
We know that God designed the plan of salvation in a way that not all
are called and given the choice. Many are called.... not all. That
would mean that some were created only to burn forever. Impossible!
God bless,
Harold
"You are accursed and will burn in HELL for all eternity."
I was a bit surprised - most Sabbath keepers have moved towards the
annihilation view of Hell. Here is my thinking on the question of
eternal torment or eternal destruction.
Over the years I have seen a phenomenon which I call the
Eternal ...Torment Syndrome.
Many people who have been taught and accepted the idea of eternal
torment in hell for all who are not "saved" are victims of Modern
Christian teaching. Imagine a mother who believes her children will be
writing in torment a million years from now. Since she cannot bear the
thought she tries to find something which will lower the threshold of
salvation to the point that her children who continue to commit sin
will be delivered from hell.
The result is the modern Christian doctrines which eliminate the
necessity of obedience to the ten commandments. Some have the
threshold of salvation so low that if someone says they believe in
Jesus they are not only saved but cannot be lost - even if they were
to late reject Christ completely.
For example:
Here are some quotes from Charles Stanley who is the senior pastor of
megachurch First Baptist Church Atlanta in northern Atlanta, Georgia.
He is the founder and president of In Touch Ministries. Stanley also
served two terms as president of the Southern Baptist Convention from
1984-1986.
"The Bible clearly teaches that God's love for His people is of such
magnitude that even
those who walk away from the faith have not the slightest chance of
slipping from His hand." p. 74
"The apostle's meaning is evident. Even if a believer for all
practical purposes becomes an unbeliever, his salvation is not in
jeopardy. Christ will remain faithful." p.93
"And last, believers who lose or abandon their faith will retain their
salvation, for God remains faithful." p. 94.
This is a very appealing and comforting doctrine to someone whose
relatives or children have died as a sinner but claimed to believe in
Jesus.
If someone believes in Eternal Torment is told that we must obey God
or be lost they immediately think that if that is true then all of
their loved ones (dead or alive) who commit sin are or will be
tortured for eternity. Since that consequence is impossible to bear
they seek a teaching that gives them relief such as once saved always
saved.
To think that our loved ones will punished and then cease to exist is
hard to bear but not impossible. To accept they are burning forever is
unthinkable.
So those Christians who believe in Eternal Torment are forced to seek
Eternal Security at the lowest possible level of obligation. Ideally
their loved ones will not burn if they have ever just said the sinners
prayer and then go on with their lives pretty much as before. And for
the most part that is just what Modern Christianity gives them.
Lahry to me the most powerful argument against Eternal Torment is that
it would make God a cruel tyrant who caused people to burn for
eternity even though they never had a choice. It would mean God
created souls which had no other destiny except eternal torture.
We know that God designed the plan of salvation in a way that not all
are called and given the choice. Many are called.... not all. That
would mean that some were created only to burn forever. Impossible!
God bless,
Harold
Harold Kupp
Dec 28, 2010, 11:30:18 AM12/28/10
to Sabbath Keepers Forum
Brother Lahry,
The question is not "Is there a place of eternal fire? There is a lake
of fire! The question is what happens to those who go there. Before I
reply - remember the source of what you believe about the verses you
quote. -...> Apostate Protestantism and the ancient Roman Catholic
church which used this doctrine to control the religious world. Since
the church has the power to ex-communicate a person and there is no
salvation except in the church - they claim to have the power to send
a person to eternal torment. Even Kings feared the Pope for that
reason. Remember the nuns beating that doctrine into your head?
All who teach eternal torment use the same verses you quoted - but do
they mean what the false churches have said they mean concerning
eternal torment. Eternal torment is the whip they use to force
submission through fear. ...lets look at them together...
On 12/27/2010 3:38 PM, Lahry Sibley wrote:
> Where oh where's the scripture to support your position? Here's mine....
>
LAHRY
> Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
HK
Here it is only the devil, the beast and the false prophet that shall
be tormented day and night forever. All will be cast into the fire but
it does not say that all will be tormented forever.
There is not a single place in the Scriptures that say that people
will be tortured (tormented) forever.
LAHRY
> Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
>
> Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
>
> Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
>
> Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
>
> Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
HK
All were cast into the fire which was the second DEATH - punishment is
to "according to their works" and then eternal death - not
resurrection unto eternal life in Hell. Read it closely Lahry with an
open mind - those verses in Revelation just do NOT say that ALL cast
into the fire will burn forever. If the first death is physical death
then the second death must be spiritual death.
Jesus said he would give His sheep eternal life. If - as the apostate
churches teach - "We all have eternal life the question is where will
you spend it." Then ask yourself if we all have eternal life how could
Jesus give us something we already possess? Can you answer that
question?
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never
perish...
LAHRY
> Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
>
> Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
>
> Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
>
> Mat 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
>
> Mat 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
>
> Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
>
> Mar 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
>
> Mar 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
HK
The fire is eternal - it can never be quenched. However it does not
say the punishment is eternal. Sodom was burned with eternal fire - is
Sodom still burning? Or were they consumed by the fire.
Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like
manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange
flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of
eternal fire.
LAHRY
> 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
>
> 2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
>
> 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
>
> 2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
>
HK
Lahry, all of these verses confirm hell as a place of punishment - no
question. In the verses you quoted it is the destruction that is
eternal. There is no hope of the judgment of God to be reversed, they
will destroyed forever. How could there be destruction without being
destroyed?
Even your logo - says the same thing. Repent or perish. Perish means
die - not live forever in hell. Jesus was not talking about physical
death - even those who repent must die physically. Surely we agree
that perish refers to those who perish spiritually. After being
punished they perish in Hell.
Here is the meaning of perish. Strongs ; to destroy fully.
Jesus said repent or be completely destroyed - where will they be
destroyed? In Hell! How could one be destroyed fully and still exist.
Lahry do you really think God created some people who have no choice
except to " be tormented day and night for ever and ever"?
God bless,
Harold
The question is not "Is there a place of eternal fire? There is a lake
of fire! The question is what happens to those who go there. Before I
reply - remember the source of what you believe about the verses you
quote. -...> Apostate Protestantism and the ancient Roman Catholic
church which used this doctrine to control the religious world. Since
the church has the power to ex-communicate a person and there is no
salvation except in the church - they claim to have the power to send
a person to eternal torment. Even Kings feared the Pope for that
reason. Remember the nuns beating that doctrine into your head?
All who teach eternal torment use the same verses you quoted - but do
they mean what the false churches have said they mean concerning
eternal torment. Eternal torment is the whip they use to force
submission through fear. ...lets look at them together...
On 12/27/2010 3:38 PM, Lahry Sibley wrote:
> Where oh where's the scripture to support your position? Here's mine....
>
LAHRY
> Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
HK
Here it is only the devil, the beast and the false prophet that shall
be tormented day and night forever. All will be cast into the fire but
it does not say that all will be tormented forever.
There is not a single place in the Scriptures that say that people
will be tortured (tormented) forever.
LAHRY
> Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
>
> Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
>
> Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
>
> Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
>
> Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
HK
All were cast into the fire which was the second DEATH - punishment is
to "according to their works" and then eternal death - not
resurrection unto eternal life in Hell. Read it closely Lahry with an
open mind - those verses in Revelation just do NOT say that ALL cast
into the fire will burn forever. If the first death is physical death
then the second death must be spiritual death.
Jesus said he would give His sheep eternal life. If - as the apostate
churches teach - "We all have eternal life the question is where will
you spend it." Then ask yourself if we all have eternal life how could
Jesus give us something we already possess? Can you answer that
question?
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never
perish...
LAHRY
> Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
>
> Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
>
> Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
>
> Mat 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
>
> Mat 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
>
> Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
>
> Mar 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
>
> Mar 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
HK
The fire is eternal - it can never be quenched. However it does not
say the punishment is eternal. Sodom was burned with eternal fire - is
Sodom still burning? Or were they consumed by the fire.
Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like
manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange
flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of
eternal fire.
LAHRY
> 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
>
> 2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
>
> 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
>
> 2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
>
HK
Lahry, all of these verses confirm hell as a place of punishment - no
question. In the verses you quoted it is the destruction that is
eternal. There is no hope of the judgment of God to be reversed, they
will destroyed forever. How could there be destruction without being
destroyed?
Even your logo - says the same thing. Repent or perish. Perish means
die - not live forever in hell. Jesus was not talking about physical
death - even those who repent must die physically. Surely we agree
that perish refers to those who perish spiritually. After being
punished they perish in Hell.
Here is the meaning of perish. Strongs ; to destroy fully.
Jesus said repent or be completely destroyed - where will they be
destroyed? In Hell! How could one be destroyed fully and still exist.
Lahry do you really think God created some people who have no choice
except to " be tormented day and night for ever and ever"?
God bless,
Harold
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