Easterns vs Westerns?
Michael Adams
continent? Something different? Or mine for ideas? Or even find
out more about that little war of the last generation? Like it
was invaded by the Mongols, but they lost? Or the Vedic/Indus
Valley civilization?
Vietnam:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tr%E1%BA%A7n_Dynasty
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%AA_L%E1%BB%A3i
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nguyen_Dynasty
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annam
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hereditary_Nobility_of_Vietnam
India:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedic_civilization
Mike
If anything, new ideas? or old ideas for new places?
Dragonkat
Japan as a rogue provence taking land on the mainland,
+ Indochina as a doomed(?) teritorry of barbarians, monks,
+ Mongolian (barbaric) horse-archers.
Three-way war vs China, some Eastern.
Dragonkat
On Jan 5, 5:31 am, Michael Adams <abri...@gci.net> wrote:
> More about Vietnam? What about other parts of the Asian
> continent? Something different? Or mine for ideas? Or even find
> out more about that little war of the last generation? Like it
> was invaded by the Mongols, but they lost? Or the Vedic/Indus
> Valley civilization?
>
>
Dragonkat
On Jan 5, 1:20 pm, Dragonkat <dragonkat2fl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Asia? Imperialistic China vs Japan-Korea, Indochina, & Mongolia
> Japan as a rogue provence taking land on the mainland,
> + Indochina as a doomed(?) teritorry of barbarians, monks,
> + Mongolian (barbaric) horse-archers.
> Three-way war vs China, some Eastern.
>
> Dragonkat
>
> - Show quoted text -
Imperialitic China vs Japan-Korea vs Mongolia with Indochina in
rebellion vs China? A three front war!
Dragonkat
Michael Adams
the Japanese part, but what about invading Vietnam and Java and
where else?
India for one, the Moghul empire after all is Mongol? but where
else?
Mike
Dragonkat
On Jan 6, 4:39 am, Michael Adams <abri...@gci.net> wrote:
> People remember the Mongols, but only the western part, or maybe
> the Japanese part, but what about invading Vietnam and Java and
> where else?
>
> India for one, the Moghul empire after all is Mongol? but where
> else?
>
> Mike
culture? That would still leave Japan-Korea & Indochina to be delt
with... Japan-Korea being an alteration of history...
Dragonkat
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dragonkat" <dragonkat2fl...@yahoo.com>
> To: "Fantasy world creation"
>
> <Fantasy-wor...@googlegroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 4:31 AM
> Subject: Re: Easterns vs Westerns?
>
> On Jan 5, 1:20 pm, Dragonkat <dragonkat2fl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Asia? Imperialistic China vs Japan-Korea, Indochina, &
> Mongolia
> > Japan as a rogue provence taking land on the mainland,
> > + Indochina as a doomed(?) teritorry of barbarians, monks,
> > + Mongolian (barbaric) horse-archers.
> > Three-way war vs China, some Eastern.
>
> > Dragonkat
> > - Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Imperialitic China vs Japan-Korea vs Mongolia with Indochina in
> rebellion vs China? A three front war!
>
Michael Adams
The Manchus became the ... last one, I forget its name. They
were cousins to the Mongols, but they took over in the I think
18th century, with a chinese dynasty in between?
http://library.thinkquest.org/12255/library/dynasty/dynasty.htm
* Xia Dynasty About 1994 BCE - 1766 BCE
* Shang Dynasty 1766 BCE - 1027 BCE
* Zhou Dynasty 1122 BCE -256 BCE plus suppliment
* Qin Dynasty 221 BCE - 206 BCE
* Early Han Dynasty 206 BCE - 9 AD
* Xin Dynasty 9 AD - 24 AD
* Later Han Dynasty 25 AD - 220 AD
* Three Kingdoms - Period of Disunion 220 AD - 280 AD
* Sui Dynasty 589 AD - 618 AD
* Tang Dynasty 618 AD - 907 AD
* Sung Dynasty 969 AD - 1279 AD
* Yuan Dyansty 1279 AD - 1368 AD
* Ming Dynasty 1368 AD - 1644 AD
* Manchu or Qing Dynasty 1644 AD - 1912 AD
I thought there was a Chin dynasty, or its a name for a people,
or alternate name?
Mike
Dragonkat
It was a period if not a dynasty as such
Dragonkat
Michael Adams
not pulled back in the c.1400s and become a closed in country?
They had sent out massive ships to as far as Madagascar, and
maybe more, but then suddenly they decided to contract and be
the "center" of the universe, all cause of the Emperor having
some confusian dream or ...
Rumors still exist that they got as far as the west coast of
California, and maybe even further. They they like the later
Japanese contraction, left many colonies across SE Asia and
places like I remember the Phillipines and else wheres or ...
more info/research needed.
The Japanese did it after contact with the west, and cause of
the quick conversion of to much of the country by Christian
missionaries, they closed the country off. Leaving colonies
(trade towns/etc) to suffere..
Dragonkat
On Jan 11, 10:16 pm, Michael Adams <abri...@gci.net> wrote:
> I do wonder how the world would look like, if the Chinese had
> not pulled back in the c.1400s and become a closed in country?
>
> They had sent out massive ships to as far as Madagascar, and
> maybe more, but then suddenly they decided to contract and be
> the "center" of the universe, all cause of the Emperor having
> some confusian dream or ...
>
> Rumors still exist that they got as far as the west coast of
> California, and maybe even further. They they like the later
> Japanese contraction, left many colonies across SE Asia and
> places like I remember the Phillipines and else wheres or ...
> more info/research needed.
>
> The Japanese did it after contact with the west, and cause of
> the quick conversion of to much of the country by Christian
> missionaries, they closed the country off. Leaving colonies
> (trade towns/etc) to suffere..
>
> Mike
>
>
Invaded Korea & Manchuria (ala WWII but around 1400s),
trained more samurai & bushi to KEEP these...
What If that were the catylist for Chinese Imperialism? Into
Indochina, Tibet, Mongolia, Siberia to fill out troops for the
war against the Nipponese Shogunate of Manchuria, which
stands (against the odds) because of local samurai and
their butchery? Those swords took off heads! Mounted
Archers! Cavalry! In thirty years the Shogunate would be
Established... compleate with three 'ninja' clans, the mix
between truebloods, halfbloods, & Native-blooded samurai
being a heirachy of sorts, more horses, and the Shogun's
children being at the Imperial Court(s), first in Nippon true-
bloods, then in China w half-native halfbloods fourty years
into the occupation...ending the war to cold diplomacy.
China would still be Imperialistic, leaving Siam for later, &
taking India in a simalar manner the English/French did,
pitting one against another, only before the 1500s.
I don't know how much of Siberia would be taken, but then
China's western march would go to what is now Kazikstan
& Afganistan & Pakistan early 1500s...
Dragonkat
Michael Adams
of Kamchatka and the Kurile islands will lead to discovery of
Alaska (how the Russian sort of found it, or atleast settled
it).
Siberia depends on how used, mostly means all of Russia that is
east of the Ural Mountains. A massive areas. But depends on how
things work.
Siberia (Eastern part) has most or all the same minerals as
Alaska, which means oil, gas, uranium, timber, fish and more..
Yes, the interior might take time to work into, so likely it
will be via trade and not conquest anything brought out.
Alaska on the other hand, has sea otters, and other beasts, but
also massive amount of fish and whales., as well as crabs and
more.
SE Alaska has Sitka Spruce, which until recent times was a major
source for ship masts, why? Cause the Spruce are tall, straight
and have FEW if any KNOTS.. Which means the mast will be strong
and complete all the way up and need little bracing/etc.
Aleuts, not sure how related to the Ainu and other far eastern
(Siberia), Japan, and siberian peoples. The Siberian Yupik and
some Inupiaq had family on the Siberian Mainland..
But yes, trade, where to trade, after all you can go all the way
past India to Africa and Magagacar. And maybe even further..
The Polynesians who started some place near Malaysia (south of
Vietnam) and went as far as Easter Island (off the coast of
South America, while they never got there?) and thrn up to
Tahiti and as far as Hawaii..
Which is wild, since looking at the people of SE Alaska, they
have some characteristics of some contact with the Polynesians..
Yes, the Chinese might have dealt better with the Mongols and
other related peoples, such as the Manchu. Thought not sure if
the Japanese would have changed as much as they did when the
Mongols attacked? They was into horse archery themselves, but
after the Mongols, they became more foot and sword..
Mongols got as far as Java and Vietnam. in our history that is.
Would be funny to have a giant Chinese Junk fleet, suddenly show
up in Portugal, I think Lisbon, and do what Commadore Perry did
much the same to Japan, grin.
I do wonder how much the Koreans and Japanese knew of Alaska and
the Aleutians, not that far from the Kuriles that is, so ..
makes me wonder what the Japanese was really trying to do when
they invaded Alaska in WW2? And still doing, but now its for the
Aurora and Methahydroxide (sp).
Mike
Was thinking of posting to a Piper list, but ..
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dragonkat" <dragonk...@yahoo.com>
To: "Fantasy world creation"
<Fantasy-wor...@googlegroups.com>
Dragonkat
On Jan 12, 5:26 pm, Michael Adams <abri...@gci.net> wrote:
> Hum, I expect with Chinas and Japans expansion, that the coast
> of Kamchatka and the Kurile islands will lead to discovery of
> Alaska (how the Russian sort of found it, or atleast settled
> it).
I haven't.
> Siberia depends on how used, mostly means all of Russia that is
> east of the Ural Mountains. A massive areas. But depends on how
> things work.
>
> Siberia (Eastern part) has most or all the same minerals as
> Alaska, which means oil, gas, uranium, timber, fish and more..
> Yes, the interior might take time to work into, so likely it
> will be via trade and not conquest anything brought out.
>
> Alaska on the other hand, has sea otters, and other beasts, but
> also massive amount of fish and whales., as well as crabs and
> more.
> SE Alaska has Sitka Spruce, which until recent times was a major
> source for ship masts, why? Cause the Spruce are tall, straight
> and have FEW if any KNOTS.. Which means the mast will be strong
> and complete all the way up and need little bracing/etc.
>
> Aleuts, not sure how related to the Ainu and other far eastern
> (Siberia), Japan, and siberian peoples. The Siberian Yupik and
> some Inupiaq had family on the Siberian Mainland..
>
> But yes, trade, where to trade, after all you can go all the way
> past India to Africa and Magagacar. And maybe even further..
>
> The Polynesians who started some place near Malaysia (south of
> Vietnam) and went as far as Easter Island (off the coast of
> South America, while they never got there?) and thrn up to
> Tahiti and as far as Hawaii..
>
> Which is wild, since looking at the people of SE Alaska, they
> have some characteristics of some contact with the Polynesians..
>
> Yes, the Chinese might have dealt better with the Mongols and
> other related peoples, such as the Manchu. Thought not sure if
> the Japanese would have changed as much as they did when the
> Mongols attacked? They was into horse archery themselves, but
> after the Mongols, they became more foot and sword..
put the Samurai back to horse archery as well.
Dragonkat
On Jan 12, 6:57 pm, Dragonkat <dragonkat2fl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jan 12, 5:26 pm, Michael Adams <abri...@gci.net> wrote:
>
> > Hum, I expect with Chinas and Japans expansion, that the coast
> > of Kamchatka and the Kurile islands will lead to discovery of
> > Alaska (how the Russian sort of found it, or atleast settled
> > it).
> > Alaska, which means oil, gas, uranium, timber, fish and more..
> > Yes, the interior might take time to work into, so likely it
> > will be via trade and not conquest anything brought out.
>
> > Alaska on the other hand, has sea otters, and other beasts, but
> > also massive amount of fish and whales., as well as crabs and
> > more.
>
> Importing crabs and more, that could be done...
>
> > past India to Africa and Magagacar. And maybe even further..
>
> > The Polynesians who started some place near Malaysia (south of
> > Vietnam) and went as far as Easter Island (off the coast of
> > South America, while they never got there?) and thrn up to
> > Tahiti and as far as Hawaii..
>
> > Which is wild, since looking at the people of SE Alaska, they
> > have some characteristics of some contact with the Polynesians..
>
> > Yes, the Chinese might have dealt better with the Mongols and
> > other related peoples, such as the Manchu. Thought not sure if
> > the Japanese would have changed as much as they did when the
> > Mongols attacked? They was into horse archery themselves, but
> > after the Mongols, they became more foot and sword..
>
> On the other hand, learning how to build composite bows would
> put the Samurai back to horse archery as well.
>
> > Mongols got as far as Java and Vietnam. in our history that is.
>
> > Would be funny to have a giant Chinese Junk fleet, suddenly show
> > up in Portugal, I think Lisbon, and do what Commadore Perry did
> > much the same to Japan, grin.
>
> > I do wonder how much the Koreans and Japanese knew of Alaska and
> > the Aleutians, not that far from the Kuriles that is, so ..
> > makes me wonder what the Japanese was really trying to do when
> > they invaded Alaska in WW2? And still doing, but now its for the
> > Aurora and Methahydroxide (sp).
>
>
What if Machuria expanded northeast after the war with China goes to
cold diplomacy, they gain composite bow technology and samurai learn
Mongul tactics the hard way? The Shogunate might be the ones to import
giant crabs! And what of the martial artist monks?!
Ural Mountains?!? That's generous of you... I'd limit the Chinese to
lower Siberia and trade with Russia
But that's Me
Dragonkat
Abrigon
or ... might be fun to see how Athabaskans match up against
Mongols.
Athabakans like the Apache?
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dragonkat" <dragonk...@yahoo.com>
To: "Fantasy world creation"
<Fantasy-wor...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: What if - China had expanded c.1400 and not
contracted? Re: Easterns vs Westerns?
Dragonkat
Oceanania and discovered Aulstraila in expansion.
Dragonkat
Dragonkat
On Jan 14, 9:56 pm, Dragonkat <dragonkat2fl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I forgot that China could have colonized all the Islands of Indonesia-
> Oceanania and discovered Aulstraila in expansion.
>
> Dragonkat
> - Show quoted text -
learning about composite bows and tactics, and moving on the coast
northeasternly after the Shogun has family in TWO Imperial Courts.
OK... We have China expanding for samurai fodder into Indochina,
Tibet, Mongolia, and then Eastern Siberia with cool diplomancy
replacing war. They expand into India by pitting one aganst another.
They expand southeasterly into Indonesia and then to Australia, to be
named in honor of a previous dynasty. They invade into what is
Pakistan, Afganistan, & Kasikstan before it is decided to expand
knowlege of what's west thru trade after muslim conflicts in and out
of their West...
OK...What is happening in Europe?? Alaska is discovered by the
Nipponese, BTW! Africa??
Dragonkat
Abrigon
colonies along the way to Asia, and the British and Dutch as
well. And we later on as well. Why you think we fought the
Spanish in Cuba? Grin..
Natural trade routes go both way.
Now alternate, what if China had brought about a "Real"
Confucias universe, to include Magic?
Cross posting this to a Piper-L cause of the Paratime content.
What if, an alternate reality? I wish I had a local more stable
writers, so I can come up with ideas and he/she/it can make it
so, or atleast realistic or keep me stable and on one subject at
a time.
Dragonkat
On Jan 18, 6:29 pm, "Abrigon" <abri...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yeppers, or why you think France, Spain, Portugal had the
> colonies along the way to Asia, and the British and Dutch as
> well. And we later on as well. Why you think we fought the
> Spanish in Cuba? Grin..
>
> Natural trade routes go both way.
> Now alternate, what if China had brought about a "Real"
> Confucias universe, to include Magic?
> Cross posting this to a Piper-L cause of the Paratime content.
> What if, an alternate reality? I wish I had a local more stable
> writers, so I can come up with ideas and he/she/it can make it
> so, or atleast realistic or keep me stable and on one subject at
> a time.
It wouldn't be Soc.Hist.What-If ???
Michael Adams
In Paratime a book by HB Piper, one of his levels of paratime
split off from the main, cause of someone doing something and
instead of going western into Europe, they went east into Asia
and then to North America. And the end result was Indo-European
speakers in what is for us Pennsylania.. Who are facing a
crisis, namely one of their one time healer Gods, discovered
Sulfa drugs or like, but also Sulfar and alchemy, and found
GUNPOWDER, and the means to use it as firearm. So they now
control the use and making of gunpowder and guns (shoulder,
long, cannon, etc). problem is, this is causing problems since
the healer Gods followers are becoming monotheistic (one God,
versus polytheistic aka multiple Gods) but on the real world,
they are controlling everything, or if you do not do as they
say, they cut you off from gunpowder and weapons and you are
taken over by those who do have gunpowder/guns. Much like if the
Catholic church had the formula for Gunpowder and how to make
guns in the middle ages and use it to keep the "protestants" in
line.. (protestors).
Along comes Calvin aka Lord Kalvan, and he is a normal
Pennsylvania Hiway Cop, who is a Korean War Vet and has some
knowledge of military matters and especially how to MAKE GUN
POWDER (not that hard, but ....), and helps his dad was a
minister, so he knows about the inner workings of ... ...not
going there.
But the end result of this "What if China had expanded and not
contracted".
Is a possible alternate reality. Where China c.1400 comes to
Europe instead of the Reverse (Dutch/Portugese/Spanish
(Netherlands was owned mostly by the Spanish c.1500, and not
exactly the same with Portugal, even if their neighbor). And
later English (British) and other european powers (US included.
Russia as well, and Germany).
How would things have changed? I expect alot, such as who would
own the west coast of North America, and South America, let
alone SE Asia (trading likely), and trading posts along the
coast of India to Africa and maybe even a place like Dashima (?)
or was it Nagisaki and Hiroshima (go figure). First contact, the
Europeans was given more freedom to travel, but it was found
that they was bringing some wild new faith that threatended the
old order of the Emperor being a God, decendent of the sun. So
a purge happened and all Europeans was forced to trade only via
a small port in the south of Japan, or two?
Eastern coast of South America might be known as well. Will have
to see how the currents would effect things, as well as how big
of Junk are we talking and its sailing means/characteristics and
politics of the Captains or .. Hum..
I do think the Japanese would be over run or used or .. hum,
tough nut to crack. I do think they would not have advanced and
changed as much as they did post-Euro contact, such as the use
of the Arbequest as well as what would be seen more in the
western, massed formations of gunners, firing in lines, one
firing first, then the next moving forward or just firing over
the heads of the first, while the 1st loads and so on.. Became
popular in Japan c.1500???
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dragonkat" <dragonk...@yahoo.com>
To: "Fantasy world creation"
<Fantasy-wor...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 5:12 PM
Subject: Re: What if - China had expanded c.1400 and not
contracted? Re: Easterns vs Westerns?
On Jan 14, 9:56 pm, Dragonkat <dragonkat2fl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I forgot that China could have colonized all the Islands of
Indonesia-
> Oceanania and discovered Australia in expansion.
Abrigon
Dragonkat
Dragonkat
Abrigon
Grin.. I expect some war or ...
Or the reverse, many Muslims and Jews from Spain going to China?
or some where along the trade route?
What else would go to Europe with a direct link to/from Asia?
One reason Marco and family went east, was to get around a block
in the normal trade routes. I think it was Afghanistan or ....
Moghuls in India (Pakistan and such).
Also what about Trading posts along the coast of Africa, a way
to get around the Arab trade network. People forget that until
recent times, that the Arabs (before and after they became
Muslims), had a very serious trade in/out Africa. Gold, Ivory,
Rare Spice and yes Slaves.. They was doing the slave trade
almost a millenia before the 1400s (or more). Sheba likely is
Yeman, and Ethiopia/Somalia has had as civilization going back
to almost as old as Egypt (Meroite (sp)). Hum..
Mike
Alaska
Lists dying, yes, people have to actually do more than work,
sleep, eat and play games online.. Amazing how many people do
not know their neighbors, but do know someone online across the
planet?
Dragonkat
where do they meet/clash in the middle... China's West...
Marco wasn't recieved with a hero's welcome back home.
Arab Trade Network, hm.
Dragonkat
Abrigon
finds out that their former rival, is still alive? Not that they
did not know that but ..
Yes, the Bantu and other tribes of middle to southern africa was
very well aware of the Arabs and their habits.. See Swahili, it
is a Bantu tongue, cousin to Zulu, but with Arabic words added..
Or where you think the Sudan and like got their Muslims? But the
road was not one way, there was a bit of blood going the other
way, and not just as slaves.
The Arabs also went east into India and beyond, mixing with the
locals, so if China had expanded west, then trade wars in the
Middle East and Indian Ocean?
I know there has been several trade networks.. Some going back
to ancient times, such as why much of the Tin for the Sumerians
(Iraq) Bronze age comes from SE Asia, or the Jade and Tin that
came from Briton and the Baltic?
The Chinook trade network along the cost of the western US and
several others (I still think that the Tlingit Indians of
Alaska/Canada have had some contact with the Polynesians or
something, just looking at their art and Hawaiian).
But heh, I love how the Polynesians came all the way from
Malaysia to Hawaii, but oddly did not go to South America (close
though) and ... all from navigating by the stars, wave dynamics,
flow of the ocean (hand in the water), and knowing of sea birds
namely which is a land bird or a real sea bird. and ..
Why I loved the comment in Pipers book "Space Viking" about how
things are in a contra-gravity world, but when you look at
things in a one spade, bucket and like, then it puts you in
perspective.
Was working on a model for a trade town and how it came about.
Traders moving up the coast to a known trade partner, need a
place to do work, eat, be protected and repair their ship;. Come
to an island in the middle of a delta (Mississippi River or
....) and beach their ship, and build a small fort to ride out
the winter..
In the process they find a local native fish/hunt camp, and make
contact, and start to trade. Now 40 or more years later, things
have changed some..
The fort is now a trading post, with a bridge to the mainland
form the island, and a thriving trade network into the interior.
With the tribes that ride the plains..
One day the island fort will be a town with a wall, and a dock
and more.. With a thriving noble/merchantile class and even
slaves and other fun of any medieval town, or serfs (former war
prisoners, or even of debt or ... will see.).
I still use the Phoenecian models of Carthage and beyond.
Mike
Dragonkat
foe then could be free samurai fodder and ridding of some samurai in
the process...
Trade towns are great, hm?
Religion and greed spark wars, hm?
Dragonkat
Abrigon
the center of the universe, so as long as the Japanese paid
their due to the Emperor, and did not act aggresive to the
Empire, they would be allowed to live/exist..
Samurai, possible as mercenaries. How many would be out of work?
Or would China just allow things to happen in Japan, with out
interference. As long as the duties and taxes came in, they
would not interfer in the wars of the Japanese. Gempei/Warring
states/etc..
Yes, both ways would faiths flow..
What tech would flow, and which ways? And effect?
How to make this a fantasy world for some?
Mongols might be a better role model but .. The Yuan dynasty of
China. Or Tamerlane, would he have gone south into India over
land, if he could have done the same via the ocean and into
western Europe? Tamerlane the original Moghul Emperor?
Trade towns, for sure. Likely a days or so distance from each
other? There was some in the 1400/1500s, some going back a ways,
and some abandoned when China retracted, same when Japan later
did much the same, leaving colonies all over SE Asia/SE Pacific
Rim. Colonies later used as part of an excuse for invading SE
Asia in the first place, "our lost brothers" or some other hog
wash?
Saving grace being that the trade winds and currents go in a
counter clockwise means, so that its easier to go south and then
east, along the same route that many earlier Polynesians took to
colonize the pacific. From the Philipines to Hawaii. Which was
good for the people of the west coast of the US and
Alaska/British Columbia.. Would have been wild to have some
giant Junk from China and others, just show up one day in some
village in SE Alaska. to trade or ..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junk_(ship)
"The largest junks were built for world exploration in the
1400s, and were around 120 (400+ feet) meters in length. ".
WIld, that large? 2000 tons?
Even could sail into the wind? Yuan dynasty invaded not only
Japan, but also Java, using the Junk ships.
Hum, wonder about Junks in a fantasy world, Ether Rider or ...
Mike
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otokichi 19th Century Japanese Junk
demasted at sea, makes land on Washington coast, after drifting
for 14 months across Pacific.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Columbian_trans-oceanic_contact
Pre-columbian possible contacts and recent ones as well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupac_Inca_Yupanqui Incan Emperor
rules or visits Easter Island, go figure.. I am always amazed
that the Polynesians got as far as Easter Island but did not
make the small jump to South America?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedro_Sarmiento_de_Gamboa Basque
explorer. I wonder what else the Baque know about? After all
they had been I understand, fishing off the Grand Banks of New
Foundland in ancient times? A Jewish Basque? Okay. Helped
discover the Solomons while trying to find New Zealand and/or
Australia.
More later if anyone interested?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dragonkat" <dragonk...@yahoo.com>
To: "Fantasy world creation"
<Fantasy-wor...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 7:49 PM
Subject: Re: What if - China had expanded c.1400 and not
contracted?
Dragonkat
Dragonkat
[On Jan 21, 5:13 am, "Abrigon" <abri...@gmail.com> wrote:
[> China had a flaw, later seen in Japan, the idea that they was
[> their due to the Emperor, and did not act aggresive to the
[> Empire, they would be allowed to live/exist..
[>
[> Samurai, possible as mercenaries. How many would be out of work?
[[> Or would China just allow things to happen in Japan, with out
[> interference. As long as the duties and taxes came in, they
[> would not interfer in the wars of the Japanese. Gempei/Warring
[> states/etc..
on the mainland, and older samurai as mercs. Who would control
'Tiawan', China or Japan? I favor Japan, as another shogunate, Wu.
[> Yes, both ways would faiths flow..
Yep.
[> What tech would flow, and which ways? And effect?
[> Mongols might be a better role model but .. The Yuan dynasty of
[> land, if he could have done the same via the ocean and into
[> western Europe? Tamerlane the original Moghul Emperor?
[> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junk_(ship)
[> "The largest junks were built for world exploration in the
[> 1400s, and were around 120 (400+ feet) meters in length. ".
[> WIld, that large? 2000 tons?
[>
[> Even could sail into the wind? Yuan dynasty invaded not only
[> Japan, but also Java, using the Junk ships.
[>
[> Hum, wonder about Junks in a fantasy world, Ether Rider or ...
[>
[> Mike
Dragonkat
>
> - Show quoted text -
expanded on the Mainland? The kingdom of Siam becoming a shadow
Shogunate somewhat like Manchuria but with its King...
Dragonkat
Dragonkat
Abrigon
sailing to Portugal, and demanding TRIBUTE to the Emperor China
for one.
Not sure if the Infanta of Spain would like being shipped off to
China to marry some pagan Emperor, and be one of his wives, but
... What you do for the Church?
Pope likely would send back a messenger/legate.
Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire would send a like one, to bring
Christianity or atleast counter the Papal offer.
When was the Chinese Fleet? Got to get a time line going?
I do think India and SE Asia would not be happy, but same with
Japan? What you mean we are a secondary Emperor?
I do see trade stations of some sort set up along the coast of
India, Arabia (likely to link up with cross country ones, such
as Egypt and .. who was active at this time, the Ottoman Empire
and the Moghuls and who else? and along Africa. I wonder how
long until they find South America or ...).
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dragonkat" <dragonk...@yahoo.com>
To: "Fantasy world creation"
<Fantasy-wor...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 1:30 PM
Subject: Re: What if - China had expanded c.1400 and not
Dragonkat
samurai counter-boarders, Off with their heads!
I don't think the Chinese Navy is a happy one about that.
Dragonkat
Abrigon
protestant, or just them, but also Buddist, Hindu, Sikh, Shinto
missionaries? Or just people from those and other groups?
Or a Karate master setting up shop in Paris? 3 Musketeers vs one
of his students?
Or worse, the religious war that may erupt. The Japanese in
c.1300 slaughtered and martyred 1000s of Japanese Christians, to
the poing of Civil War, all to curb the tide of Christianity in
Japan. What if it was reversed?
Son, you will be Pope after me, No dad, I am going to be a
Buddist Monk?
Dragonkat
The Multi-Missionaries would indeed spark 'Holy Wars'
Abrigon
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Abrigon" <abr...@gmail.com>
To: <abr...@gci.net>
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 12:54 AM
Subject: Fwd: What if - China had expanded c.1400 and not
contracted?
Dragonkat
China Expands ca. 1400+
Chinese-Japanese War leaves Mancuria(+Korean) Shogunate but... China
Takes 'Southern China' (Indochina) and explores by ships. China Takes
the Far South Zen Shigh Islands (Briefly Tiawan). Tiawan Wu becomes
Independant, Refuge for Chinese 'Losers,' Triads Dominate with trade
to/from Japanese Empire & Yakusa. China marches Shang-hied Troops to
the Southwest from its territories into India (Banglidesh War-fields)
but by the third try takes on India by diplomatic chunks (English
Tactics of consolodation) instead of direct force. Famine hits India,
but Chinese take years to upgrade Veddish Agriculture and also
transfers non-orientals into Veddish territories ca. 1550-1609
Is that an Idea?
Dragonkat
Abrigon Gusiq
Will be interesting to see how it would go?
Dragonkat
TL-143 (Time Line 143)
China Expands ca. 1400+
Chinese-Japanese War leaves Mancuria(+Korean) Shogunate but... China
Takes 'Southern China' (Indochina) and explores by ships. China Takes
the Far South Zen Shigh Islands (Briefly Tiawan). Tiawan Wu becomes
Independant, Refuge for Chinese 'Losers,' Triads Dominate with trade
to/from Japanese Empire & Yakusa. China marches Shang-hied Troops to
the Southwest from its territories into India (Banglidesh War-fields)
but by the third try takes on India by diplomatic chunks (English
Tactics of consolodation) instead of direct force. Famine hits India,
but Chinese take years to upgrade Veddish Agriculture and also
transfers non-orientals into Veddish territories ca. 1550-1609
Ottoman Empire ca. 1526-1532 Three Campaigns result in Hungarian
Capture in Europe, border areas had to pay annual tribute to
Hapsburgs. 1534 Ottoman conquest of Bagdad, most of Iraq. 1537-40 War
with Venice. 1541-47 (Divergence) Hapsburgs turn Ottomans into a rout
from most European holdings after Ottomans broke the peace... 1548-49
Iranian Campaign takes more Territorry for the Ottomans than in OTL
1551-61 Renewed War with Hapsburgs, ended with too many Ottoman troops
Impailed. 1553-73 Iranian Campaign extended until peace treaty of
Amasya when existing boundries were recognized, propaganda & raids
upon Ottomans ended. 1560-73 Iranian Expansion East to the Kyber Pass,
no farther.
1609* Serious revolt in Egypt crushed by Ottomans 1609* Chinese/
Veddish territory raided by Iranians beyond Kyber Pass... Hostilities
in ernest at Kyber Pass continue until Chinese capture east side of
Pass in 1638, built Wall... 1609* Fighting ends between Iran &
Mongols, leads to Mongol War with the Chinese (Stalemate) and the
Veddish mountain road to western China by Veddish untouchables,
including half of non-Veddish, non-Orientals reseattled now deemed of
that Caste. 1609-45* Muslims slowly become suspects of assisting Kyber
Raids, persicutions & executions drive Muslims into an Underground
Faith in Vedda(India), now like a racial penal colony where even
orientals feel punished to be there. 1609* Cyclone hits Banlidesh
fields, the Flood stays in half the old battlegrounds...
Dragonkat
Mike Adams
sailing to Portugal, and demanding TRIBUTE to the Emperor China
for one.
Not sure if the Infanta of Spain would like being shipped off to
China to marry some pagan Emperor, and be one of his wives, but
... What you do for the Church?
Pope likely would send back a messenger/legate.
Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire would send a like one, to bring
Christianity or atleast counter the Papal offer.
When was the Chinese Fleet? Got to get a time line going?
I do think India and SE Asia would not be happy, but same with
Japan? What you mean we are a secondary Emperor?
I do see trade stations of some sort set up along the coast of
India, Arabia (likely to link up with cross country ones, such
as Egypt and .. who was active at this time, the Ottoman Empire
and the Moghuls and who else? and along Africa. I wonder how
long until they find South America or ...).
Mike
introduction of Christianity, since Jesus was not Japanese, so how could be
the son of God, like the Emperor was?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dragonkat" <dragonk...@yahoo.com>
To: "Fantasy world creation"
<Fantasy-wor...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 1:30 PM
Subject: Re: What if - China had expanded c.1400 and not
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