Is it experiential learning?

[btphelps]

I am director of an outdoor-based leadership development program for
youth. Based on what I've read about the experiential education
profession, they seem to have rather specific notions of what
comprises "experiential education," usually around ropes courses and
the like. Is it really this limited?

We provide all kinds of hands-on activities designed to stimulate
learning, but the learning is not really about the hands-on skills.
The use of the outdoors, hiking, ropes, camping etc is a means to the
end of teaching leadership. Does this fit within your conception of
"experiential education"? Why and why not?

Brian Phelps
www.whitestag.org

White Stag Leadership Development
50 years - 20,000 lives changed
Training junior leaders since 1958

[Roger Greenaway]

Hi Brian (and group),

Yes - beyond the world of ropes courses there are many more
experiences indoors and outdoors that would belong under the
'experiential education' umbrella. Take, for example, Joseph
Cornell's Sharing Nature with Children. I would regard Cornell's
approach to be right at the heart of 'experiential education'. The
only extra equipment needed as far as I recall is a magnifying class
for one or his observation exercises.

Work experience, educational drama and most gap year placements would
also count, for me, as 'experiential education' - if they are
intended to provide new, developmental experiences and have some kind
of facilitated reflection as an integral part of what is offered.

In my view, once you stop teaching and let the experience do the
teaching you are approaching 'experiential education', but it would
be tricky to include 'education' in the label if neither teaching nor
facilitated reflection are present.

Back to ropes courses ... There are lots of ways of using ropes
courses that would not in my view count as 'experiential education'.
When there is a lot of teaching before, during and after a ropes
course experience it would more accurately be named 'ropes course
teaching' as opposed to 'classroom teaching' - not 'experiential education'.

When experiential education happens in a carefully designed and
protected environment it is probably a suitable education for
preparing people to function well in carefully designed and protected
environments. There is also a more open approach to experiential
education which is favoured (among many others) by Colin Mortlock
(author of Adventure Education). Mortlock favours non-contrived and
self-designed adventures. A classic example would be 10-11 year olds
planning and doing mobile self-reliant expeditions over several days,
including camping. It is an approach to 'experiential education' that
has a very different value base and probably has very different
outcomes to the more contrived/designed approaches.

There are lots of good ways of using ropes courses, but it seems very
strange that there is so much experiential education literature
giving the impression that 'experiential education' = 'ropes courses'.

Thanks for raising an interesting question (and enticing me to
contribute!. I hope we get to hear other views too.

Roger Greenaway
Reviewing Skills Training
<http://reviewing.co.uk>

[John Crosbie]

Hi Roger (et al)

Can you help me here as I have always struggled a bit with both the
boundaries and philosophy of Experiential Education?

Brian in his title quotes experiential "learning" then progresses to
"education". You mention teaching (or reviewing) as an essential part
of education but then mention ropes course "teaching" is not
"experiential education".

Now I don't wish to get too bogged down in semantics, but even here an
array of words has been used.
Education - the system of educating people
Learning - the acquisition of knowledge or skill
Teaching - to give lessons in or provide information about a subject

Is not Experiential Education the system of educating people through
direct experiences?
This does requires neither teaching nor facilitated reviewing. It does
require experiences and if it is part of structured learning, these
should (must be) relevant to the intended learning outcomes.

One can learn without being taught, and one can teach without anyone
actually learning anything!

Kolb's cycle is a good model, but I don't see it requiring
facilitation at any point. Facilitation should aid the learning
process but it is not a pre-requisite that it happens.

May I give an example:
My daughter past her driving test a few weeks ago and wished to drive
by herself the length of England (I know not far for Americans) to
participate in a kayak competition.

I considered this an ideal opportunity for experiential education. I
allowed and encouraged her to undertake the task. Following a few
safety pointers it was self led with no teaching or facilitation.

She used the knowledge she had to plan her route, calculate the fuel,
money and time required and headed off. She executed her plan (making
a navigational error on the way home thus having to make new route
choice decisions) and got back. She internally reviewed the experience
and in conversation (not a facilitated review) explained what she
would do differently next time. She is now planning her next trip.

If she had made different mistakes (such as running out of fuel) she
would have had a different experience and learnt different lessons.

As the definitions above, I see this as experiential learning
delivered through a system (or philosophy) of experiential education -
as this is the process that I promoted.....

..... but tell me I am wrong!

All the best

John Crosbie

[Scott Hawker]

Hi John,

I see experiential education to be any learning or knowledge gaining through direct experience. Your daughter has most certainly gained knowledge in various forms through her trip for kayaking. Through studying Outdoor Education at University, my lecturers have always encouraged us to approach experiential education with a hollistic approach. I think that is one of the joys of Outdoor education in that it is all encompassing, some processes such as experiential education and experiential learning can cross over at some points due to their similarities. We also get encouraged to not ask for a clear cut definition of terms in outdoor education, this is because if we don't have a set in concrete definition, we can expand on and perfect the movements amongst this definition. All in all, experiential education is a fantastic method of learning, I have found this to be the case in academic study and also Outdoor activities and pursuits.


Hope this helps?

Scott Hawker

[Roger Greenaway]

Hi John, Brian, Scott and others,

The Association for Experiential Education ducks the question. AEE invite us to "engage in the ongoing conversation about what defines experiential education" and then they offer a sentence to 'begin the conversation' at:
http://www.aee.org/about/whatIsEE

So maybe we are all supposed to 'struggle' with the definition (as you say you do John). If the AEE can only get as far as having a conversation about the definition, who are we to define it? Instead of trying to define it, we might get a little further by changing the question to something like "Why is it that the AEE seems so reluctant to define the EE bit of AEE?"

Actually (and perhaps disappointingly) I think I agree with you on all points, John. I'd put it like this:

• You can do 'experiential learning' without a teacher or facilitator or any other kind of outside assistance.
• For 'experiential education' I think you need some kind of an educator (even though the term 'self-educated' might challenge the idea that education needs an educator).
• The more you are learning from the educator, the less you are learning from the experience.
• An educator can help and hinder the process of experiential learning.

AEE states: "An experiential educator is anyone who teaches through direct experience."
I hope this is up for discussion as part of the 'ongoing conversation' - because I would expect AEE to use a definition that is a little closer to Carl Roger's views on teaching:

'Teaching, in my estimation, is a vastly overrated function..... I see the facilitation of learning as the aim of education' (Rogers, 1969).

Maybe we should just enjoy the struggle of trying to define EE? AEE is not alone in this struggle. I think they are just an example of a wider struggle that all of us have in EE.

Brian started this thread by asking:

Based on what I've read about the experiential education

profession, they seem to have rather specific notions of what

comprises "experiential education," usually around ropes courses and

the like. Is it really this limited?

This is certainly the impression you would get at http://teamtraining.ning.com/group/facilitators where these words introduce the facilitators' group:

You're probably a facilitator if you think the whole world should participate in one big ropes challenge course.

Scott writes:

We also get encouraged to not ask for a clear cut definition of terms in outdoor education, this is because if we don't have a set in concrete definition, we can expand on and perfect the movements amongst this definition.

So somewhere in this world there is a teacher of outdoor educators who does not want their students even to attempt to clarify terms? Maybe this is why the UK Taxpayers Alliance lists so many outdoor education courses in its list of 'non-courses'. http://tpa.typepad.com/waste/2007/08/the-non-courses.html

I think it is better to join the struggle for definition than to discourage curiosity. It is curiosity that drives learning - however 'experiential' the process.

Roger

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[Scott Hawker]

Hi Roger,

 

I think the idea behind not having a clear definition is so we can continue to explore the subject? Myself and others in my class have continous discussions to try and find a dictionary appropriate definition of experiential education. Do you think there is a definition for experiential education? Every resource I use to find a clear definition tends to differ slightly. Our tutors most definitely ask us to try and clarify terms, but to not get too hung up on clarifying as outdoor education is a forever developing subject. If something like Outdoor Education is forever changing, it seems it would be quite difficult to define an element amongst it?

 

Scott

[Roger Greenaway]

Hi Scott (and others),

I owe you an apology, Scott. And your teacher. It seems like there was nothing like 'stifling of curiosity' going on. Whatever the strengths of experiential learning, clarity about what it is does not seem to be one of them. But I think we can do better. Some people have bravely tried to do so ...

---

Ivana  Turcová, the compiler of an English-Czech outdoor dictionary, has struggled with these problems. She writes:

“With regard to the outdoors, many publications are written in English and much of the basic terminology has been primarily developed in English. To understand the range of apparently similar terms is becoming more difficult, not only for non-English speakers who face the problems with translation of terms, but also for native speakers.” (Turcová et al. 2005, 110)

“National characteristics and norms influence subtle differences among terms and individual perception and interpretation of terms. These differences highlight regional differences in practice, as well as different theoretical standpoints, which is helpful for communication with colleagues from other countries and for international co-operation in the European Union.” (ibid. 115)

TURCOVÁ, I./MARTIN, A. J./NEUMAN, J.: Diversity in language: Outdoor terminology in the Czech Republic and Britain. Journal of Adventure Education and Outdoor Learning, 5(2005), 2

---

For a little more clarity see Tony Saddington's 2 page overview entitled 'What is "experiential learning"?':
http://www.icel.org.uk/pdf/el.pdf

---

I guess that our (definitional) problems in the field of experiential learning are dwarfed by questions in other fields such as 'What is art?'

Roger

At 00:41 24/10/2008, Scott Hawker wrote:

Hi Roger,
 
I think the idea behind not having a clear definition is so we can continue to explore the subject? Myself and others in my class have continous discussions to try and find a dictionary appropriate definition of experiential education. Do you think there is a definition for experiential education? Every resource I use to find a clear definition tends to differ slightly. Our tutors most definitely ask us to try and clarify terms, but to not get too hung up on clarifying as outdoor education is a forever developing subject. If something like Outdoor Education is forever changing, it seems it would be quite difficult to define an element amongst it?
 
Scott