Tanscendent Immanence
Ian
prayer. After a while, the conversation shifted to statements like,
"We don't need a God 'out there'. We need to recognize God 'in here'."
[point to own chest]; and, "I AM. Me, I am. I am God."
Typical Old School Liberal Shit. I realized that Typical Old School
Liberal Shit is as annoying to me as Typical Old School Conservative
Shit is. When we talked about mystical experiences, one person told a
little story, prefacing it with some words about the Eastern Idea of
the Annihilation of the Self. Then he told the story of a mystical
experience. Someone asked, "And did you feel more complete afterward?"
He said, "Yes," which struck me as funny, since an Eastern experience
wouldn't make him feel complete, but dissipated.
So, I started wondering, what's a more useful or productive or more
accessible way of talking about transcendence and immanence? Or, are
these categories useless? I told the mystic dude that it sounded like
he had a Christian mystical experience, wherein he became more of who
he is, not less, by a connection with the Divine, and maybe there's no
point in trying to make distinctions between "in here", and "out
there".
I don't know, though. Maybe it's wiser to think in terms of Elisha (or
was it Elijah?) with the fire and earthquake and wind, wherein he
noticed God, but God wasn't in them. God was in that little voice (in
E. or outside of him, I do not know). To be honest, I think that
little voice in a cave would scare me more than fire. Fire I know.
Wind I can deal with. Voices in the dark?
God is close like breath, but is not breath.
But then the whole evening swept me up in wondering what prayer is.
Some people say it's a conversation. Is it congress? Is it
intercourse?
I was struck by the certainty with which we all approach our
relationship with God, putting labels on it and asking each other to
accept the labels not only for ourselves, but for themselves, as well.
ke...@presence.tv
Interesting stuff.
I visited a UCC this morning. The pastors are very thoughtful and
reflective. Real life stuff.
I agree with your take on "Old School" from whatever
school--conservative or liberal. We live in a new day, a new time.
The old molds are moldy. Together we can find a creative path that
transfoms all of the old nonsense.
Yes, I can hear the critique now, "return to the ancient paths. Do not
remove the ancient landmarks."
What ancient paths would that be? The ones filled with racism or the
ones filled with self-righteous social crusading. I'm more (liberal or
conservative) than you is just another way of saying, "I am closer to
God than you could ever imagine...unles of course you are transformed
into my image."
Blessings, bro.
AHa...@aol.com
Ian wrote:
>
> But then the whole evening swept me up in wondering what prayer is.
> Some people say it's a conversation. Is it congress? Is it
> intercourse?
>
I am enjoying your questions about prayer. I am curious as to what you
have been thinking around these if you care to share! :-)
I am wondering, is it all of the above and more?
Ellen
Ian
tracks through the wilderness, not the paved roads of modernity. The
ancient paths of animals and ancestors living closer to God and nature
and the intersection thereof.
Then again, maybe it isn't a matter of roads and trails. Maybe it's
more an issue of traveling in the wrong country. Did the modern church
[liberal, conservative, progressive, evangelical, whatever] see another
place to travel, and get all of us somewhere unintended?
Finally, my little congregation decided last night that we'll worship
together on Easter, then close this chapter of the stiry the next week.
That's sad to me, since we were exploring the paths and the country,
old and new, trod and unbroken.
I like your thinking.
Ian
the most beloved traditionalist to liberals, remarked that God is so
masculine that all of creation is feminine by comparison. Lewis fan
though I am, I don't share his views of women. I'm extremely
uncomfortable with that thought in every way save this one: A
relationship with God asks that we are "passive", "receptive", and, as
John Donne put it, "ravished" by God. I think prayer is like making
love, an activity which, according to a book I threw out, begins in the
kitchen. I suppose that human twenty-first century lovemaking is
mutual, but there is maybe some useful thing to this scattered thought
in my head.
Prayer is also like running, dragging deep breaths into the lungs. The
air is the atmosphere and environment; it is also the interior of the
runner. God lives around us and in us as we live in God, which is, I
guess, prayer.
That's where words fail me. Is prayer words and actions, or is it
living, burning, healing, klling, restorative relationship?
If we approach prayer as an opportunity to join with God who wants to
share the divine life with us, then prayer can be more selfish ["God, I
need mortgage money."] and less selfish, ["God, surround the people of
Darfur and those who are killing them and politicians who look and
don't act."] because God gives us not only life, but divine life, and
Holy Spirit, which is self-giving and outwardly focused
What do you think?
Susan
Ian wrote:
> Then again, maybe it isn't a matter of roads and trails. Maybe it's
> more an issue of traveling in the wrong country. Did the modern church
> [liberal, conservative, progressive, evangelical, whatever] see another
> place to travel, and get all of us somewhere unintended?
>
traveling in the wrong country indeed.
Jer 18:15 Yet my people have forgotten me;
they burn incense to worthless idols,
which made them stumble in their ways,
in the ancient paths.
They made them walk in byways,
on roads not built up.