Takoma Park, MD: How can they afford to use so many different systems? and New York State update
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Diana Finch
Nov 10, 2009, 2:14:16 PM11/10/09
to Election Integrity
As a New Yorker who is closely watching New York State’s agonizing process of deciding whether or not to buy electronic voting machines and ditch our lever machines, I marvel at the comment in Rob Richie’s recent post in which he says that in 2005 the Takoma Park MD city council used DREs to count votes, then they used a hand count in a couple of elections and since early 2007 have used a couple of different op scan systems. How could they have afforded to buy so many different systems in such a short space of time?
And re New York: I am in favor of keeping the lever machines, even if this means defying HAVA. The New York City Board of Elections can’t afford electronic voting machines, they had to plead for additional funds just to hold the November general election and it’s not clear how they are going to pay the poll workers for this election – in part because, as required by law, they had to hold a run-off election for two or three races in the Democratic Primaries this past September.
The New York schedule, as worked out with the Department of Justice, calls for the purchasing decision on new machines to be made by the end of December – even though, as I understand it, the systems under consideration have not yet passed certification . . . .
Diana Finch
New York voting rights activist
Rob Richie
Nov 11, 2009, 9:41:44 AM11/11/09
to Election Integrity
Takoma Park is a small jurisdiction and
MD law doesn't require local jurisdictions to use certified equipment
(true of some other states too and emblematic of the "free
pass" localities can get for administering elections that can result
in innovation, but too often disenfanchisement with things like polling
places, polling hours, voter ID requirements, etc).
I believe we used our old city-only lever machine voting equipment in 2001, leased the county's DRE's in 2003, did a hand-count in 2005 and special election in Jan 2007, worked with one optical scan vendor in 2007 and Scantegrity in 2009. For the voters, the ballot has looked about the same in the Jan, 2007, Nov 2007 and Nov. 2009 elections.
Rob
I believe we used our old city-only lever machine voting equipment in 2001, leased the county's DRE's in 2003, did a hand-count in 2005 and special election in Jan 2007, worked with one optical scan vendor in 2007 and Scantegrity in 2009. For the voters, the ballot has looked about the same in the Jan, 2007, Nov 2007 and Nov. 2009 elections.
Rob
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Respect for Every Vote and Every Voice"
Rob Richie
Executive Director
FairVote
6930 Carroll Avenue, Suite 610
Takoma Park, MD 20912
www.fairvote.org
r...@fairvote.org
(301) 270-4616
Please support FairVote through action and donations -- see
http://fairvote.org/donate. For federal employees, please consider
a gift to us through the Combined Federal Campaign (FairVote's
CFC number is 10132.) Thank you!
Joyce McCloy
Nov 11, 2009, 10:24:32 PM11/11/09
to Election Integrity
Diana, good question. Takoma Park's last election had a turnout under
2,000 voters. So there's no reason to use machines. Takoma Pk hasn't
yet had to use the 2nd and 3rd choice votes to elect anyone, so the
system is there but it does nothing. IRV is just a "fish bicycle" for
that town.
Thats the reason for this news article about Takoma Pk elections:
The activist city that didn't vote Will there ever be enough
candidates in a Takoma Park election trigger Instant Run-off Voting?
by Tamra Tomlinson 12/07/2007
http://www.takoma.com/archives/pdfs/2007/1207pdfs/tp1207/TKP_MN_120107_00_00_017_c.pdf
Few places that have adopted IRV have been able to implement it.
If you want to get rid of your levers, then by all means adopt IRV, -
this will help Sequoia or Dominion get rich, only Sequoia has any
federally approved IRV software. No other vendor has any submitted for
cert. I wouldn't trust even federally certified IRV software, because
it is too opaque a counting process.
FairVote is willing to tarnish their name by "partnering" with an
internet voting company headed by former Bush Appointee DeGregorio.
Wth Internet Voting, FairVote could spread instant runoff voting
everywhere.
Why else would a voting advocacy non profit "partner" with a voting
vendor?
What if Verified Voting did that, or BBV.org, or Common Cause, or what
if Brad Friedman "partnered" with a voting vendor?
And whoever controls the website or the application controls
everything,
2,000 voters. So there's no reason to use machines. Takoma Pk hasn't
yet had to use the 2nd and 3rd choice votes to elect anyone, so the
system is there but it does nothing. IRV is just a "fish bicycle" for
that town.
Thats the reason for this news article about Takoma Pk elections:
The activist city that didn't vote Will there ever be enough
candidates in a Takoma Park election trigger Instant Run-off Voting?
by Tamra Tomlinson 12/07/2007
http://www.takoma.com/archives/pdfs/2007/1207pdfs/tp1207/TKP_MN_120107_00_00_017_c.pdf
Few places that have adopted IRV have been able to implement it.
If you want to get rid of your levers, then by all means adopt IRV, -
this will help Sequoia or Dominion get rich, only Sequoia has any
federally approved IRV software. No other vendor has any submitted for
cert. I wouldn't trust even federally certified IRV software, because
it is too opaque a counting process.
FairVote is willing to tarnish their name by "partnering" with an
internet voting company headed by former Bush Appointee DeGregorio.
Wth Internet Voting, FairVote could spread instant runoff voting
everywhere.
Why else would a voting advocacy non profit "partner" with a voting
vendor?
What if Verified Voting did that, or BBV.org, or Common Cause, or what
if Brad Friedman "partnered" with a voting vendor?
And whoever controls the website or the application controls
everything,
Rob Richie
Nov 12, 2009, 4:03:56 AM11/12/09
to Election Integrity
I am sorry that our disagreement with Joyce about policy has to get to
this kind of tone and hostility. I think our history of reform work and
the composition of board of directors would suggest that it is
unwarranted.
Let me say in response to the below:
1) Takoma Park, like many relatively small jurisdictions, has voted on machines for many years. That had nothing to do with FairVote. But in 2005 we were the catalyst for it rejecting using the county's DRE machines again and instead doing an handcount. In later years the clerk pursued optical scan options. Most similar municipalities in this year use the state machines.
2) Like many, the city council liked the idea of instant runoff voting and voted unanimously to put it on the ballot as an advisory measure. It won 84% of the vote in November 2005 during that relatively high turnout race. The council changed the charter in 2006 and the city first used IRV in a special election in January 2007, when there indeed were three candidates and IRV had a clear impact on how candidates campaigned even though the winner ultimately won just over 50% of first choices -- and those participating liked it in a nonscientific survey we did.
3) Since then, there have been no three-candidate races, following the pattern of the city rarely having much competition. After a reasonably close mayor's race this year, there is some talk of a more competitive, multi-candidate race in 2011. We'll see. But if and when Takoma Park has such an election, it won't be debating "spoilers", just as they didn't in the January 2007 special election.
4) I already explained the Everyone Counts history and how there was little to do with it in the first place (relating to private association organization elections and website surveys) and nothing to it for around five years. Barbara Simons suggested we ask Everyone Counts to take down that old posting. We did that yesterday in an email to their general contact address and they seem to have done so.
5) Doing IRV only helps get companies rich in the corrupt election administration regime where private vendors can charge jurisdictions "up the yin yang" (as Diebold put it in internal memos) for public interest improvements to their process. The fact that ES&S hasn't been putting readiness to use alternative voting systems into its new products is a commercial decision, as far as I can see it. ES&S knows how to do IRV, did it on older optical scan in San Francisco, and told the state of North Carolina that it would put it into all their NC systems, including automark and two optical scan machines, for about $1 million. But withholding the readiness allows them to overcharge for it later - wisely, New Yorkers have a provision in their new RFP that allows any upgrades to be open to competitive bidding.
Rob
Let me say in response to the below:
1) Takoma Park, like many relatively small jurisdictions, has voted on machines for many years. That had nothing to do with FairVote. But in 2005 we were the catalyst for it rejecting using the county's DRE machines again and instead doing an handcount. In later years the clerk pursued optical scan options. Most similar municipalities in this year use the state machines.
2) Like many, the city council liked the idea of instant runoff voting and voted unanimously to put it on the ballot as an advisory measure. It won 84% of the vote in November 2005 during that relatively high turnout race. The council changed the charter in 2006 and the city first used IRV in a special election in January 2007, when there indeed were three candidates and IRV had a clear impact on how candidates campaigned even though the winner ultimately won just over 50% of first choices -- and those participating liked it in a nonscientific survey we did.
3) Since then, there have been no three-candidate races, following the pattern of the city rarely having much competition. After a reasonably close mayor's race this year, there is some talk of a more competitive, multi-candidate race in 2011. We'll see. But if and when Takoma Park has such an election, it won't be debating "spoilers", just as they didn't in the January 2007 special election.
4) I already explained the Everyone Counts history and how there was little to do with it in the first place (relating to private association organization elections and website surveys) and nothing to it for around five years. Barbara Simons suggested we ask Everyone Counts to take down that old posting. We did that yesterday in an email to their general contact address and they seem to have done so.
5) Doing IRV only helps get companies rich in the corrupt election administration regime where private vendors can charge jurisdictions "up the yin yang" (as Diebold put it in internal memos) for public interest improvements to their process. The fact that ES&S hasn't been putting readiness to use alternative voting systems into its new products is a commercial decision, as far as I can see it. ES&S knows how to do IRV, did it on older optical scan in San Francisco, and told the state of North Carolina that it would put it into all their NC systems, including automark and two optical scan machines, for about $1 million. But withholding the readiness allows them to overcharge for it later - wisely, New Yorkers have a provision in their new RFP that allows any upgrades to be open to competitive bidding.
Rob
--
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Please forward EI messages widely and invite members to join the group at http://groups.google.com/group/ElectionIntegrity/members_invite.
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