Fwd: [CA-BD] Planned WH retrofit vs unplanned

[chirjiv anand]

Thank you Bruce!

Information useful for existing buildings group- please see the conversation below.

Also attaching a book I found in my archives. It may be useful for cost estimates. It is based on D.C numbers. Numbers will have to be adjusted for California. "How to use the book" part of the book provides a bit more guidance. A California counterpart and a newer version than this may be available but I have not checked. 

-Chirjiv

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Bruce Naegel <bna...@sustainablesv.org>
Date: Thu, Mar 22, 2018 at 7:59 AM
Subject: Fwd: [CA-BD] Planned WH retrofit vs unplanned
To: chirjiv anand <chirji...@gmail.com>

Comments on conversion, more info to follow.

Thanks

Bruce Naegel
 Director, Metrics and Research

 Sustainable Silicon Valley 

650 996 5793   Mobile

bna...@sustainablesv.org

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Tom Kabat <tomg...@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, Mar 2, 2018 at 10:26 AM
Subject: Re: [CA-BD] Planned WH retrofit vs unplanned
To: Dan Thomsen <d...@buildingdoctors.com>
Cc: Larry Weingarten <ele...@mbay.net>, "Rider, Ken@Energy" <Ken....@energy.ca.gov>, CA Building Decarbonization <ca-building-decarbonization@googlegroups.com>

Hello Ken,

I think there are big differences in planned vs emergency cost to replace WH depending on what type of WH you start with and what type of WH you want to end up with.

e.g. 

1) Gas Tank to Gas Tank

2) Gas Tank to Gas tank fan forced combustion (needs 110 V)

3) Gas Tank to Gas Tankless (needs 110V and bigger fuel pipe and bigger exhaust ducting)

4) Gas Tank to Gas forced condensing (needs 110 V and condensate line possible condensate pump)

5) Gas Tank to electric resistance tank (needs gas cap and 220 V 20-30 A circuit)

6) Gas Tank to Electric Heat Pump [hybrid resistance] (needs gas cap and 220 V 20A circuit and condensate line, possible condensate pump, may need venting if in <100 square foot room)

7) Gas Tank to Electric Heat Pump only (needs gas cap and 110 V 15A circuit and condensate line, possible condensate pump, may need venting if in <100 square foot room)

After these conversions, the simple swap of same type to same type when one burns out after 15 years is quick and easy.  

Conversions to Heat Pumps (6&7) are the best de-carbonizers.  

Conversion 3 to tankless gas is an expensive step on the wrong path and becomes a psychological barrier preventing decarbonization on a sunk cost fallacy. 

The unplanned-event cost-premiums I’m just guessing would add around $100-$200 per task for each added task.

“Weekend” opportunity-cost could double the premiums in the Bay Area from my limited experience.

-Tom (a homeowner engineer DIY guy)

On Mar 1, 2018, at 11:22 PM, Dan Thomsen <d...@buildingdoctors.com> wrote:

All,

There would be an added expense to moving a water heater from inside a home which we find quite often to outside. You would have to add the cost to plumb it to outside.  Here is southern Calfornia most of the tankless manufacturers require a prefilter for them to warranty the equipment.  along with those things Larry listed. They also require a dedicated circuit in the panel that tanked water heaters do not need.

Best,

Dan Thomsen

President

Building Doctors, Inc. 
5042 Wilshire Blvd. Suite 268
Los Angeles, CA 90036

d...@buildingdoctors.com
www.buildingdoctors.com

Office 323-646-BLDG (2534)
Cell    213-448-6668 

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On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 7:36 PM, Larry Weingarten <ele...@mbay.net> wrote:

Hello,  The only number I have is retrofit for a gas tankless at $3600. Most of that is new venting and bigger gas line than was needed by the tank-type heater that was there before.  If it is a simple swap out, electric or gas, there should be no difference unless you get stuck with weekend plumber rates. I'm assuming by retrofit, you mean replacement? One should seldom need to replace a heater on an emergency basis as there are tricks for keeping a leaking heater in service for months if need be.

 

Yours,  Larry

From: Rider, Ken@Energy

Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2018 5:53 PM

To: CA Building Decarbonization

Subject: [CA-BD] Planned WH retrofit vs unplanned

Are there cost differences between a planned water heater retrofit and an emergency retrofit?  If so does anyone have a ballpark range of what that might be?

-Ken

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