What's Theology Got To Do With It? Chapter 8, The Holy Spirit.

[fcba%40comcast.net]

Dear Confessors,

 

I will be gone for close to three weeks. Wendy and I will be visiting friends in Michigan and selling joke books at General Synod. I have taken the bull  by the horns and asked Jane to summarize chapters during my absence. Enjoy the summer and friends at Synod drop in on the God Is Stll Laughing Table to talk. BTW Cal Samra of the JOYFUL NOISE LETTER & the HOLY HUMOR books will be at the table on Saturday, June 27th.

 

CHAPTER 8

 

THE POWER OF REFORM, RENEWAL, AND GROWTH

THE HOLY SPIRIT AND THE CHRISTIAN LIFE.

 

"The 21st century may be the time when the Holy Spirit is no longer an afterthought or an enigma." (135)

 

 

I. THE HOLY SPIRIT: A BRIEF INTRODUCTION

 

Daniel Migliore  "The third article of the creed affirms that God is not only over us and for us but also at work in us." (136)

 

limits & dangers of this way of thinking:  " a too individualistic way." (136)

Spirit in creation, empowering the prophets, "at work in the conception" of the Baptist and the Christ, Christ's baptism,

 

David H. C. Read  "God who is everywhere and always (God the Father), God who is then and there (the Son), and God who is herre and now (The Holy SPirit)." (136)

 

limits of this way of thinking..."Jesus is only in the past"

 

without the Holy Spirit....

God seen as "distant, hierarchial, and coercive"

"authority of scritpures becomes heteronomous"

Christomonism

church as rigid power structure

sacraments as magical rites under a clerical elite  (136-137)

 

LUKE-ACTS

nativity, baptized, new community, Pentecost

1) "Spirit is reformist or transformist." (137)

2) "...the Holy Spirit is God's living power for renewal and transformation, but it is not a rejection ofr all that has gone before." (138)

 

FOURTH GOSPEL

Jesus must go for the Spirit to come

Spirit as comforter, advocate, teacher

1) "given, not gotten" (138)

2) "the Spirit does not teach on its own but always in the name--the spirit of--Jesus." (139)

3) "remind you al all that I have said to you."

4) "will teach you everything" (139)

 

Jarosalv Pelikan   "Tradition is the living faith of the dead; traditionalism is the dead faith of the living." (139)

 

II. THE HOLY SPIRIT AND HEALTHY CONREGATIIONS STRUCTURE AND SPIRIT

 

John Gardner  "Organizations are created by their founders to serve vibrant, living purposes. But all to often the founding purposes fade and what finally gets served are the purposes of institutional self-enhancement." (139-140)

 

"The good news is that regenerative forces are usually both in the church and in other settings. Christians call regenerative force the Holy Spirit. The bad news is that the work of the Holy Spirit is often disruptive, challenging, and disturbing." (140)

 

A CASE IN POINT

 

"the forum cannot be changed." (142)

 

"group loyalties blocked self-examinination" (142)

 

A SECOND CASE

 

"The church meeting (in Congregational New England) continued for a time to be one that sought to discern the Spirit's leading, while the town meeting became a laboratory of a newly emerging democracy. Gradually over time, even the church meeting began to resemble the town meeting." (145)

 

"room for the Holy Spirit"

Acts 1, 6 & 15

"ancient spiritual practice of discernment"

"punctuated by silence"

"prays together"

III. THE HOLY SPIRIT AND THE CHRISTIAN LIFE

 

"The Spirit also has an important role in the lives of individual believers." (146)

 

THE CHRISTIAN LIFE

 

JUSTIFICATION

Desmond Tutu   "We tend to turn the Christian religion in ot a religion of virtures, but it is a religion of grace-- you become a good person because you are loved. You are not loved because yoou become a good person." (147)

 

SANCTIFICATION

"Sanctification is the work of the Spirit as we mature in the life of faith." (148)

 

VOCATION

"For both Luther and Calvin, all Christians are called to multiple vocations, which take many more forms than that of the ordained priesthood." (148-149)

 

THE CHRISTIAN LIFE AND HEALTHY CONGREGATIONS

Barbara Brown Taylor  "All you Americans care about is justification........Forgiveness is a starting place, not a stopping place." (149)

"A truncated Christian life--- all justification, no sanctification or vocation ---takes shape in various ways in congregations." (150)

 

"For whatever reasons, someone loses interest or is a chronic over-promiser or discovers the pay-off will not be what was hoped and bags it. And all to often the pastors and congregations say nothing. All grace, no expectations."  (151)

 

"cheap grace"  (151)

 

CHRISTIAN PRACTICES

"provide specific and identifiable ways for people to grow in the Christian life..." (153)

 

DISCERNMENT OF GIFTS FOR MINISTRY

"To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good." (I Corinthians 12:7)

 

"All too often the Holy Spirit has been relegated to the sidelines are margins of the church and associated primarily with congregations that practiced such gifts as speaking in togues or ecstatic worship experiences." (154)

 

"The Holy Spirit is at work to renew congregations that grow rigid and lifeless." (154)

[fcba%40comcast.net]

Dear Confessors,

 

Here are a few personal thoughts on this excellent chapter.

1) The point Robinson makes on renewing institutions is perfect for our churches.

 

2) I disagree with Barbara Brown Taylor's comment that all Americans care about is justification. I instead agree with Bonhoeffer that America has not yet experienced its Reformation and therefore is still Pelagian and does not grasp justification. Yes, we are for "cheap grace" but cheap grace is not the doctrine of justification!  I still believe that American Christians, on the whole, are like the Pharisee in the Parable of the Publican and the Pharisee. We do not get "simul justus et peccator." This is not saying that we are not Christians but it is only to saying we are Christians who do not realize we are sinners who need grace every moment of every day.  (This is not me throwing mud at other people. I was In the Jesus Movement and in evangelical churches and still did not get Luther's amazing insight into Paul.)

 

3) The point on tradition versus traditionalism is extremely important and he says it so simply.

 

4) His practical applications to congregational life are again well done.

 

5) This would be a great book to use in a congregational study.

 

See ya in three weeks or at Synod....

 

;-)

Chris Anderson

[herb.davis]

Dear Confessor reading the Book,  Thanks Chris for another fine summary.  We will miss you as you keep General Synod laughing.  I enjoyed this chapter and a lot of solid insights, but I think Chris is on to something when he suggest that the problem with our church is not too much grace and too little sanctification but rather as Bonhoffer suggested not a deep enough experience of question 2 of the Heidelberg Catechism, "How many thing must you know that you may live and die in the blessedness of this comfort? ans. Three, First, the greatness of my sin and wretchedness. 

 

I think this is critical, but tricky.  Robinson sees a lot of hurting churches and he is writing this book for hurting churches.  He may think that vital congregation are those involved in mission, and mission for us is doing good works more so than praise and thanksgiving for God's goodness.  I think that our churches are really Sanctified Churches, we really do good, we really try to be kind people.  When we define ourselves we would be embarrassed by question 2 of Heidelberg, but love our good works.  Our churches are good because we do good things.  I think what is reflected here in a strange way is the old self esteem response to people with a poor self image.  It may in the end be the wrong thepry.

 

What he is describing in the "nice church" page 150ff is sanctified churches without disciplined.  Good people don't embarrasses anyone by holding them to their confess.  There are no real test.  Just come as you are.  Tony I think begins to pick up the right move that that is practice.  How do we practice our faith, by some visible marks, Sabbath keeping, testifying, pray.  I don't like to call these spiritual marks but that is another debate. 

 

I wondering is Chris right?  Does Tony read the signs wrong?  Herb

 

[John Cedarleaf]

Herb,
No he's right!My congregation is big into mission. We do a lot both
financial support and hands on stuff and that is good. They would wince
with Question 2.I doubt they seem themselves as wretched.They would say
they are striving to do their best for others, maybe even trying to be
disciples; but sin and wretchedness are so negative sounding and they
feel there is enough negative stuff in the world. If you constantly
preach this, they turn off; so what do you do? For one thing you make
sure that there is a confession of sin at each worship service and that
you use words like sin and forgiveness and grace.As far as visible marks
go I would add commitment to the worship life of the congregtion and to
life long Christian education.

John

[fcba%40comcast.net]

Herb & John,

 

I think that Robinson is the perfect politician on these issues. (I realize that I am falling into the words of Jeremiah Wright in his criticism of Obama but I am actually not being negative.) Robinson seeks to show us that any church can go overboard on either justificaiton, sancitifcation or vocation.  This is a neat schema that touches all the basis. Robinson needs to teach in such a way to reach those he is trying to reach.

 

My problem is that schemas don't work that well in reality. The great example is that there are heretics that have been Arian, there are hereitics that have been subordinationists but there really have not been tritheists. That is giving equal time to each heresey because of a neat shema is nice mathematically but it is not reality. I believe that it is the same thing here but that is because at heart I am deeply infuenced by Luther and the wonder fo being freed from Finney's view of justification.

 

There can be lots of problems associated with sanctification...second blessing...baptism in the Spirit only by speaking in tongues...Phariseeism....etc...but I have problems seeing errors coming from overemphasizing justificaiton.....if one teaches that one is similtaneously sinner and justified and that our life is to be lived out of gratitude how can I over emphasize this?  WIll one become too thankful for God's grace? Steven Brown states that if one is preaching this right one sounds very close to an antinomian but it still have to be preached.

 

Barbara Brown Taylor is often wonderful but she is wrong here...justification rightly taught does not lead to "cheap grace." It leads to humility and attempts to live a life of thanksgiving. It leads to worshipping with hymns such as "Amazing Love."

 

Admittedly I am biased on this but my problem is that in America it was the one who coined the phrase "cheap grace" that criticized the church as being Pelagian and not having experienced the Reformation of "simul justus et paeccator." Our churches do not really teach justification they teach that one can be born again and then one has to "go and sin no more" and by using Christ's words they think that they are teaching justification. We are closer to Constantine who would not be baptized until his death for fear of sinning than to Luther who said "SIn boldly."

 

Chris Anderson

 

BTW SInce I will be in hotels (even the Radisson/Cleveland tomorrow night) I will probably be able to chime in with my comments though I will not be able to give chapter summaries.

[Gabe]

Chris, Herb, John and other T. Robinson readers,

Interesting that we are focusing on "justification" in this
chapter..and wondering if Tony's equal time critique quite fits our
circumstances. If this were a Lutheran forum, worries about its
overemphasis might be timely, but it's hard to believe this is our
problem in the UCC. Only in the sense that justification is equated
with "sloppy agape" would it be apt, but that is not what
justification is all about. ( Tony hints at one point that the former
is what he has in mind). For attention to it in evangelical circles,
see the current issue of Christianity Today that Willis mentioned
earlier--the "Justification Primer," two points of view represented by
N.T.Wright and John Piper.However the problem with such a construal is
that the shoot-out there is not representative of a much wider and
richer discussion of the subject, as in the 1999 Lutheran -Roman
Catholic JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION and the
decades it took to produce that document. Would that Wright, Piper and
Robinson had taken the latter into account. The text is worthy of
study in any of our congregations. (There is a study guide for
congregations produced by the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada
and the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops.)

The section in this chapter on the Christian life that uses
"justification, sanctification and vocation" is an adaptation of
Daniel Migliore's treatment of the subject in his FAITH SEEKING
UNDERSTANDING (pages 177-184) which in turn is a take on Karl Barth's
use of the same categories. Solid stuff. Whether congregational
problems correspond that neatly is another matter.

The need for a " more fulsome experience and understanding of the Holy
Spirit" in our congregations (135)? "Full-orbed," yes, fulsome, no."
Teacher James Luther Adams told his students, "Look that much misused
word up in the dictionary." My American Heritage says "offensively
excessive or insincere...loathsome, disgusting." Of course, a word
can be misused so extensively that it gets into a later dictionary
with that as a secondary meaning. Or some postmodern might say,
"Dictionaries are obsolete. We do our own thing." A fulsome thought.

Lots of good things in this chapter based on Tony's experience with
congregations, as in the move from an adult forum with 300 (David
Colwell's era in the Seattle Church they both served?), to a new
generation's feeling of "information overload" and desire for small
groups struggling with basic beliefs and Christian practices.

--Gabe

[Matt Crebbin]

“justification rightly taught” –

 

Chris – can you tell me where in the world this is currently being “rightly taught? And has the church lived "simul justus et paeccator" as you understand it in a way enfleshes this theology in word and deed? Just wondering…

 

God’s Peace in Christ,

 

Matt Crebbin

 

---

[herb.davis]

Sermon Note:  June 28, Fourth Sunday after Pentecost, Mark 5:21-43

Jesus is back in Galilee.  He is master of the sea and the demons.  He is Lord of Lords and King of Kings  but does he care about ordinary folks' daily struggle in a creation longing to be set free from bondage?   Mark shifts our focus to ordinary folks.

 

We have in this text two people in bondage; a father with a dying daughter; a women who has been bleeding for years.  Jairus, a leader of the synagogue publicly bows down to Jesus and begs, "My little girl is dying come, touch her  and make her well."  The woman sneaks up to Jesus and touches his robe.  They are both betting everything they have that the one who makes the sea calm can heal the sick and overcome death.

 

There is no doubt the women is sick.  She has tried every healer, used every pill,  hoped that the latest alternative medical practice would work and she is still bleeding.  She is still unclean.  She is still sick.  The women is also afraid to ask Jesus for help, but she has been planning for days on how she might just touch his robe.  She knows if she touches his robe she will be well.  Does she believe or is she simply trying another quack? 

We don't know but we do know she is healed.  We also know Jesus won't let her sneak away.  He calls to her and not only is she healed she is able to confess.  She is not afraid to go public.  In fear and trembling she falls on her knees and confesses.  The healed testify!

 

Meanwhile Jairus is anxious.  Every minute counts!  Why in the world is Jesus worried about a confession when his daughter is dying.  Maybe Jesus can heal the sick, we pray for healing every Sunday, but can he raise the dead?  The little girl is dead.  You can't fools the neighbors who know all about death and dying.  She is so dead that the folks laugh at Jesus who says, the power of death is like a nap in the hands of Jesus.  He raises the dead.  He is Lord of the living and the dead.

 

A great affirmation: Yes Jesus heals the sick and raises the dead in this creation longing for freedom from bondage of sin and death.  Now the great question: Are we willing to bet the house on Jesus?  Can we confess in fear and trembling Jesus my Lord and Savior?

 

Any corrections or additions?  Any liturgical resources?   Peace, Herb   

[Jean Easland]

Herb the Preacher: Another wonderful job. I wonder if you or others can help me with the use of the  word fear in the Bible and it's meanings? I have found a note on the psalms teaching on the "fear of the Lord" that is helpful but what say other scholars? Blessings from the semi-arid  prairie where we are always looking for the next rain. The wheat crop will be short this year due to weather extremes but the grass is always power packed with nutrition when it is short-----lots of paradoxes out here---------blessings Roger

[herb.davis]

Dear Matt,  I think Chris is out of town.  I think your question is the answer.  We never get it right but our rightousness is not in our being right.    Peace, Herb 

[herb.davis]  From: Confessi...@googlegroups.com [mailto:Confessi...@googlegroups.com]On Behalf Of Matt Crebbin
Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 11:08 PM
To: Confessi...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: What's Theology Got To Do With It? Chapter 8, The Holy Spirit.

[herb.davis]

Dear Christ (who is out of town) and John.  Christ wrote,"I think that Robinson is the perfect politician on these issues."  I think Chris is right but what if he got it wrong?  You suggest that maybe he did.  What if we don't need a perfection politician?  What if Bonhoeffer was right?  Does it make any difference?  Peace, Herb] 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 
[

[Gabe]

Herb,

Let's hope "Christ" is not out of town :)

On a related subject, connecting the upcoming Craigville Theological
Colloquy 26, July 13-17, now heavily registered, with its topic
"Spirituality and the Holy Spirit" to this chapter on the Holy Spirit.
Moderator Elsabeth Hilke put it nicely in a recent e-mail, namely that
our hope here is that a "Unitarianism of the Third Person" so
widespread in pop spirituality will be challenged by a Trinitarian
framework, one embodied in the ancient Christian practices and their
counter-parts today that we will be exploring.

--Gabe

[herb.davis]

Dear Roger,  I hope others will respond to your question on fear.  Great question!  Just off the top of my head I think when we met the Holy Other, that which we cannot control or know but only love or dread we  should be afraid. The first word from the Holy Other seems to be "Fear Not".  I assume fear is a natural, wise response when we face the Lord of Lords. When we say we are not afraid of death are we saying?  We don't expect to met anyone or it doesn't matter?  Fear of the Lord, someone said, is the beginning of wisdom.  Fear Not is our Lords word to us.   Remember this is just off the top of my head. Peace, Herb

[Matt Crebbin]

Herb said, “I think your question is the answer.  We never get it right but our rightousness is not in our being right.”

 

Herb,

 

That sounds good to me on the surface – and I am inclined to agree with you and Chris - but, if I may be so bold, it seems to me to be a cop by all of us to some pretty deep issues of faithfulness. Robinson’s overarching endeavor has been to seek to help churches and their leadership live faithfully - which includes a vitality of life together (including theology) - which includes - spiritual growth - which includes - dare I say it - growth in the number of folks who are a part of the body of Christ. It appears to me that the earliest Christians didn’t simply win the theological debates of their days – their lives (sanctification) testified to the vibrant reality of Christ alive and moving within and among them.

 

It appears to me that there are not too few churches and pastors out there here in the US and Europe who believe that they have their theology right (albeit never justified through their own endeavors) Yet, even the most generous of assessments would suggest that these churches are hemorrhaging members and shriveling as the Body of Christ. If we take seriously that the Spirit is at work in church, then we must ask ourselves why this is the case? To simply blame this current crisis on modernity, upper-middle class sensibilities, or other cultural issues – seems to me to be yet another cop out to deeper questions of just how and what the theological endeavor is all about.  

 

I have been to a number of theological lectures and workshops sponsored by folks across the theological spectrum (including Borg). The most noticeable attribute about folks at most of these gatherings - regardless of the theological bent - was that most of the attenders had grey hair (if they still had hair!). Although there may not be anything heretical about leading our historic churches into a slow and quiet death – I hope that this is not what our Rock and Founder has in mind. I have a good twenty five years of active ministry left and I would prefer to be doing more than burying the dead.

[Jean Easland]

Wise Teacher: The top of the head and the gut often serve us well. I think there is a holy fear that is very hard to describe and may be subjective but maybe not many things that we think are unique to our own experience are not. Your sermon notes are always distillates of a life time of living and loving God and others; Jesus says over and again "don't be afraid" I think that is because we live in much more fear than we admit. Look how fear turns into mass panic and then violence-----good people get swept away beyond their control. The chasm between total depravity and total acceptance by God is too large to comprehend so we are driven to grace time after time. The whole Proclamation confronts our fear and denial. God is good, all the time God is good. The "no fear" culture lives a lie. Blessings on your summer enjoyment-------Roger

----- Original Message -----

From: herb.davis

To: Confessi...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 7:23 AM

Subject: RE: Sermon Note: June 28, Fourth Sunday after Pentecost, Mark 5:21-43

[Jean Easland]

Matt: Testimonies and apologetics both are found in the Holy Book.  It is impossible to separate thought/reflection/reason from experience. I feel the pain of your question because I am near the end of my ministry and have struggled with your question my whole time in the UCC. I am taking on a church in a week that could be written off as dead but no one dares make that judgment except the Master Himself. There is always life in the church although it might take a CIA agent to find it. My ministry has been very paradoxical that way, you just start digging around in peoples lives in the context to the Church especially worship and you can get some amazing surprises at what is going on under the surface. People have to be authorized and affirmed to become willing and free to speak faith in that public forum----but when they do -------oh baby it is worth the frustration. What comes down from the top of a Denomination may be important or maybe not in a giving congregation. I am serving a small country church that is a perfect case in point. It took 6 mo. to have one of those life giving outbreaks of unity in the Spirit. The only credit pastors can take for this is unconditional trust in God in Christ in the Spirit. There is a tremendous fire of faith under the surface of so many good church folk but they get so little opportunity to let it show. The Worship folder I inherited has a line for "sharing your talent" which I left in although I lightly changed a few things. It was only after months of trust building that the congregation started to "share". There were readings, wonderful home spun poetry, music and home made crafts given as form of devotion to needy folk, laughter and tears and real LIFE.

       I think one of the big mistakes pastors may make is to underestimate the wisdom and theology that is already in the congregation before we come. There is a way to affirm faith in others without just kissing up to modern ideas. There is nothing else on the planet like Christian worship where all the elements of humanity and revealed wisdom can come together in His presence. This is what keeps me going in a church that seems hell bent for destruction from the top down ----------so just trust the bottom up. Jesus is always a man of the people.  People have tremendous loyalty for their local church even when they think the top is over the top. This church I will be serving next left the denomination  one year ago----------guess what it has not brought them the life they thought it would. I will serve them as an ordained UCC so we will see how the Spirit works this out. I always enjoy your sincere questions, they are very foundational. Faithfulness is a hard thing to define Matt.  Rocking on with you--------------Roger----------  P. S the thing I pray most for is the ability to love people just for who they are and be in solidarity with what ever that is --------then stuff starts to happen--------I don't know how much transformation I have received, how can I judge that in someone else? But I do know He has not given up on me yet!!

----- Original Message -----

From: Matt Crebbin

To: Confessi...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 11:57 AM

Subject: RE: What's Theology Got To Do With It? Chapter 8, The Holy Spirit.

[Jean Easland]

Matt: Your really got me going with your response to Herb: Here is what I have to constantly come back to: trusting that God is who He says He is and does/will do what He says He will. When we step into the pulpit we drag all we are up in front of every watchful eye and listening ear. Then a miracle happens that over takes my doubt, fear and insecurity---------faith happens.----------- I'll keep working on this, you are on to something big. blessings brother-------roger

----- Original Message -----

From: Matt Crebbin

To: Confessi...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 11:57 AM

Subject: RE: What's Theology Got To Do With It? Chapter 8, The Holy Spirit.

[fcba%40comcast.net]

Matt,

 

I am on vacation so I do not have time to actually answer you and I would trust Herb's answer better anyway BUT You must recall that my theology reflects my life journey. I was a convert in the Jesus Movement, having grown up Catholic. WHen I was taught the Arminian doctrine of justification as basically forgiveness I actually tried to live it out whereas those who are raised in a Holiness tradition have learned to take certain things with a grain of salt. Therefore when it was stressed that one should "go and sin no more" I was shocked that I kept on sinning in my mind and in my actions. My frustrations were and are frustrations of someone who tried to live what I was taught.

 

In most evangelical churches justification is basically forgiveness. Imputation is not taught. Therefore being born again is great because you are forgiven but the problem appears when you sin again. Youu wonder maybe I was not converted? Maybe I didn't really give all my heart to Jesus so you go forward again to the altar to give your heart. Then you sin again. Then you pray and fast because the altar did not do it. Etc.

 

This is a doctrinal issue that came out of the experience of Luther. The churches that stress sanctification come off like the Pharisee in the parable of the Publican and the Pharisee. He is superior, better, more holy, closer to God, committed, discipled, a tither, a serious Christian, a born again Christian, a real Christian, etc.  The publican merely says "Lord, have mercy on me a sinner."

 

The problem is that what is missed in most Christian preaching is the realization that the prayer of the publican is our life long prayer. It is not a sone time prayer and that the next week the publican returns to the temple dressed like and acting like the Pharisee. He still prays "Lord, have mercy upon me a sinner."

 

Chris Anderson

 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Crebbin" <mcre...@sbcglobal.net>
To: Confessi...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 11:07:52 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: RE: What's Theology Got To Do With It? Chapter 8, The Holy Spirit.

“justification rightly taught” –

 

Chris – can you tell me where in the world this is currently being “rightly taught? And has the church lived "simul justus et paeccator" as you understand it in a way enfleshes this theology in word and deed? Just wondering…

 

God’s Peace in Christ,

 

Matt Crebbin

 

---

From: Confessi...@googlegroups.com [mailto:Confessi...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of fcba%40comcast.net
Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 7:14 PM
To: Confessi...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: What's Theology Got To Do With It? Chapter 8, The Holy Spirit.

Herb & John,

 

I think that Robinson is the perfect politician on these issues. (I realize that I am falling into the words of Jeremiah Wright in his criticism of Obama but I am actually not being negative.) Robinson seeks to show us that any church can go overboard on either justificaiton, sancitifcation or vocation.  This is a neat schema that touches all the basis. Robinson needs to teach in such a way to reach those he is trying to reach.

 

My problem is that schemas don't work that well in reality. The great example is that there are heretics that have been Arian, there are hereitics that have been subordinationists but there really have not been tritheists. That is giving equal time to each heresey because of a neat shema is nice mathematically but it is not reality. I believe that it is the same thing here but that is because at heart I am deeply infuenced by Luther and the wonder fo being freed from Finney's view of justification.

 

There can be lots of problems associated with sanctification...second blessing...baptism in the Spirit only by speaking in tongues...Phariseeism....etc...but I have problems seeing errors coming from overemphasizing justificaiton.....if one teaches that one is similtaneously sinner and justified and that our life is to be lived out of gratitude how can I over emphasize this?  WIll one become too thankful for God's grace? Steven Brown states that if one is preaching this right one sounds very close to an antinomian but it still have to be preached.

 

Barbara Brown Taylor is often wonderful but she is wrong here...justification rightly taught does not lead to "cheap grace." It leads to humility and attempts to live a life of thanksgiving. It leads to worshipping with hymns such as "Amazing Love."

 

Admittedly I am biased on this but my problem is that in America it was the one who coined the phrase "cheap grace" that criticized the church as being Pelagian and not having experienced the Reformation of "simul justus et paeccator." Our churches do not really teach justification they teach that one can be born again and then one has to "go and sin no more" and by using Christ's words they think that they are teaching justification. We are closer to Constantine who would not be baptized until his death for fear of sinning than to Luther who said "SIn boldly."

 

Chris Anderson

 

BTW SInce I will be in hotels (even the Radisson/Cleveland tomorrow night) I will probably be able to chime in with my comments though I will not be able to give chapter summaries.

[fcba%40comcast.net]

Matt,

 

I have  few moments before church to continue. John Stauputz was Luther's mentor and teacher. John is like most of us Christians in that though he had in his intellectual worldview a works oriented doctrine of justification but he did not live by it. He had a wonderful view of God as loving in Christ and told Luther to look to Christ. His instincts led him to live a life that was justified. Luther did not have those normal instincts. He was radically logical and tried to live with the church's doctrine of any sin that is unconfessed is unforgiven and leads to hell. Therefore he became neurotic and driven to perfection while being very fearful of a very wrathful God.

 

Most Christsians are like Stauputz and that is a blessing and in a sense they skip the logic of the doctrine they have have been taught because they have a wonderful view of he kindness of God. But when on does get the doctrine of justification one is freed from so much weight, condemnation, guilt, worry, self-cenered examination of one's life that I make it my goal to reexplain justification all the time.

 

One does not need to understand justification in order to live it but understanding it is such a blessing.

 

Chris Anderson



----- Original Message -----

From: "fcba%40comcast.net" <fc...@comcast.net>
To: Confessi...@googlegroups.com

[Gabe]

Participants,

How can we not reflect theologically on the events in Iran,
especially yesterday and today? No doubt many of us have been
following these awesome events on the New York Times Led blog, The
Daily Dish of Andrew Sullivan or some other minute by minute
testimonies, Internet's YouTube videos, Facebook, Twitterings, cell
phone-picture-taking, etc. from Iran.I have been glued to the
computer, more so that the TV which very often depends on the newer
technological venues itself.

For one, it certainly means we have to become familiar with the
Islamic theologies and their sacred Book, I say "theologies" because
of the dramatic distinction we've seen by the multitudes shouting "God
is great" from Teheran rooftops supporting the protest movement contra
the same when uttered by the Supreme Leader and his supporters, all
this reflected in the sharp division that has developed among Iranian
clerics (and some of which we saw at work at Craigville Colloquy 24 on
Christian-Muslim issues). For another, consider Max Stackhouse on
globalization who has spoken at various Confessing Christ events on
this subject, edited a series on "God and Globalization" including one
volume he did, plus a Festschrift for him coming out soon edited by
Scott Paeth and a colleague. Is the political "revolution" we are
seeing played out in Iran, being watched by the world somehow linked
to Max's thesis of the importance of technological, cultural and
religious globalization processes? Rather than just the "economistic"
theories of globalzation which, while rightly criticizing the West's
imperial ways, have failed to see these other dimensions now so
manifest in Iranian ferment?

From "Mary's song" and well beyond it, there's much to say
theologically about what is transpiring right this minute across the
waters.

--Gabe

--Gabe

[Jean Easland]

Gabe: Absolutely this is a HUGE happening!!! We need to discuss the
theological implications---------who ever has expertise in Islam please help
us know how to pray for these people. We asked God to bless them today at
our joint service, my last there----------These two little UCC Churches are
as SPIRITUALLY ALIVE AS IT GETS!!! What love, gratitude and spiritual
gratitude they poured our on Jeanie and me--------Gabe you can get us going
here with some readings ???? Roger--------Blessings on your Fathers day all
Dads

[Willis E. Elliott]

An appropriate encouragement, Gabe.

 

At least my first response is to "Attach" my current online column on the subject.  In section 4, I mention the biblical element (+ the Enliightenment = "the West"), with prophet/priest/king.  My perspective is the evolution of government, which from below is what from above is a revelation from God.  Eschatologically, of course, "when all else fails," humanity will try "the kingdom of God."

 

A great new fact against tyranny: God, who sees all, is technologically decreasing tyrannies' ability to suppress seeing.  E.g., Iranian youth are Twittering, & the government can't block it.

 

Grace and peace--

Willis

 

----- Original Message -----

From: "Gabe" <gfa...@comcast.net>

To: "Confessing Christ Open Forum" <Confessi...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2009 1:00 PM

Subject: Re: Iran

>

[fcba%40comcast.net]

Willis,

 

I am a bit behind everyone on Iran' s recent events. Today we went to church in Grand Haven, MI walked the boardwalk and came home for hamburgers. But on Friday, on NPR,  I heard a discussion by an Iranian expert who said that people are making too much of the twittering aspect. He pointed out that though there is twittering in Iran it is clear that most of the twittering is being done out side of Iran.  He pointed out the reason he could prove this but I am so non-twittering that I do not remember. The upshot of what he said is that most of the communication in Iran is still word of mouth and cell phones but when one send something through twitter outside of Iran it gets resent over and over again. Therefore it would be wise not to call this a "Twitter Revolution."

 

That is all I know and I am now off to have beer and hamburgers while praying for Iran.

 

Chris Anderson

[Willis E. Elliott]

Chris

 

"Twitter Revolution" I would never use.  I said only "e.g." on Twitter: it's the only communication device the gov't. of Iran has no blocking-access to; but no technology will ever top word-of-mouth.

 

The quickest way to access the variety of views on the Iranian street-event is to read the responses to this:

Given the election-related turmoil in the Islamic Republic of Iran, can democracy ever take hold in a theocracy? How should the Obama administration respond to the disputed election and to Iran's ruling clerics?

newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/

 

A great vacation!

[bct...@aol.com]

Dear Chris and Roger,

It's best not to pray for Muslims and a Muslim country while drinking beer, or drinking anything, especially alcoholic beverages. 

There is a way in which Muslims pray similarly to Christians --- we believe in praying "Thy will be done," Inshallah, having faith that God's will is for the best.  Allah is the merciful and compassionate one.  Sound familiar?  We can pray for God's mercy and compassion, for all God's people.  We can pray for the rulers of countries, as we pray for our rulers. We can pray for and love our enemies, as Jesus and Paul teach us to do, if for some reason we perceive some others to be our enemies, or, conversely, they perceive us as such. 

We can pray that all the children of Abraham, whether through Sarah or Hagar, whether adopted or otherwise, will remember their family roots and be reconciled, as Ishmael and Isaac were, at least for a time (we don't know for how long), when Ishmael and Isaac came together to bury their father Abraham "in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron son of Zohar the Hittite east of Mamre, the field that Abraham purchased from the Hittites" (Gen. 25:8-10). 

May peace, mercy, and compassion, as well as justice and freedom, be upon all God's people and all nations. And may we be blessings to one another. 

Jane

[Jean Easland]

Willis: Man of mind and spirit. I agree that the world has changed dramatically do to techno/communication and will never be the same. Authoritarian governments like Iran and China have got to be in a panic as to how they can control rapid information dissemination. We have a generation that eats sleeps and drinks the "freedom" of media communication. Obama is in his elements here he turned the establishment on its head with media smart strategy. Don't worry he is not just sitting around thinking of the next sound bite, he has the ear of Islamic youth across the world. My prayer is that less wise political operatives will NOT mess it up. We must pray for Bahi believers who are non-violent and reformist to Islam. They could be a wonderful middle ground for peace. Jean and I attended Bahi meeting when we lived in Baltimore Md. back in the late 60s in one of our other lives. I went to the Bahi temple in Chicago to check it out. We invited international Bahi youth who came to Pierre S.D. to our church and took them out on the river boating. We had a special breakfast for them in the church.  I had a day of dialogue with them, wonderful young people. Serious youth around the world are seeking the truth. The Church needs to organize our best young communicators to use media to dialogue with youth around the world HOWEVER they NEED the wise old gray heads like yours and other on CCer's. How would we get an organized effort going? We spend plenty of time talking to eachother why not find ways to connect with these youth around the world?  Talk about the Spirit flowing Willis, what an opportunity! This would be a great opportunity for CC to turn the page and get out of itself more ????  Got any ideas Willis????    Roger  

[bct...@aol.com]

Dear everyone engaged in the discussion of Robinson's book.

I liked the part of Ch. 8 that provided an overview of how the Holy Spirit is understood in Luke/Acts, John, and the letters of Paul, and think it could be used in a congregational setting with people who ask about the Holy Spirit.  But I wasn't too sold on the rest of this chapter. 

First, I didn't pick up much on the Holy Spirit's role in the worship life of the church, or how understanding the Spirit and worship might help a congregation revitalize not only its worship services, but also its congregational life. I really wish he'd taken the opportunity to discuss this. 

Second, I thought his examples were inconsistent. The "second case" that starts on p. 144 is about a church that ran its meetings in a secular fashion, with Robert's Rules, which made the church's meetings seem like business meetings. He then makes the case for allowing the Spirit to work in the meetings, and reiterates one of his arguments that the Spirit often works in and through people you might not expect.  He says that the church's meetings are now more open "to all speakers" because "they never know through whom the Holy Spirit will speak" (p. 145-146).  And yet later in the chapter, on 151-152, he gives an example of how meetings should be better run, people should show up on time, and members of committees should not be recommended to serve another term if they violate the rules of orderly and promptly conducted meetings.  What if those very people who are late all the time, who are rude and upset everyone else, were to turn out to be people through whom the Spirit chooses to speak?  What if they are the people with certain gifts needed for building up the church, even if they are admittedly lacking in other areas? 

Third, as in his chapter on the Trinity, Robinson does not take the opportunity to talk about the Spirit's and the Triune God's role in inviting people into communion and fellowship.  He also does not talk about the Holy Spirit and love, as in "God is Love," or as in the Western idea that the Spirit is the bond of love between the Father and Son.  He focused on Paul's ideas about the Spirit giving spiritual gifts, rather than on Paul's benediction from 2 Cor. 13:13/14, which talks of the grace, love, and fellowship/communion/participation given or created by the Son, Father, and Spirit.   Paul, after all his admonishments and instructions to the Christians in Corinth, does end on this wonderfully rich note, and I believe something similar was said a few weeks ago about how Paul comes out with his love chapter in 1 Cor. 13, after talking about spiritual gifts (I think Willis may have said that, but I am not sure).  Robinson doesn't do what Paul does, and he leaves out some of Paul's messages. 

On a similar note, I think he could have done more with what he did in Ch. 7, with the fourth model of the work of Jesus Christ, which he takes from Gabe's work. This is the one about "Jesus as Presence," which is focused particularly on the incarnation (pp. 128-129).  What about God being with us through the Spirit's presence with us as a community?  Why not have a "Spirit as Presence" model analogous to the "Jesus as presence" model? This could take in ideas about the Spirit's presence in worship, as well as in other aspects of congregational and daily life.  I realize there are limits to the "presence model," as he discusses in Ch. 7, but with all his talk about Christian practices, Christian maturity, discipleship, and discernment of gifts, I got the feeling that he was recommending new "works."  I did not get any sense of the Spirit moving among us in the church simply to create fellowship, or to breathe life or new life into our worship services. 

Moreover, as I read his discussion of sanctification and vocation, I felt he was substituting his own ideas of what work, works, and vocation should be.  It still felt "tops down" to me, coming from the "leaders" of the church, and it seemed restrictive of the role of the Spirit, even to the point of suggesting that we might control the Spirit!  He offers a list of things on p. 148, in the last paragraph about sanctification, that we should do, and ends by saying that if we do them, "we open ourselves to the Spirit, who is able to make us whole and holy."  I don't think we need to do all those things for the Spirit or the Triune God to break through to us.  It's not always about what we do. 

With that said, I do believe that what we do matters  It's not just about grace and being forgiven, and Jesus set high demands on his disciples and called for repentance. I just think some of Robinson's examples were too prescriptive and restrictive, and felt too much like work and works.   But this may simply reflect my lack of pastoral leadership experience in a church.

Jane

[John Cedarleaf]

Iran discussion particpants,

It is hard to pull apart all the various nuances of this situation,
isn't it? As Gabe has said there are many theologies in Islam just as in
Christianity. They are in conflict, often with one another and add to
this power struggles among the clerics and the politicians......Also is
there, and this is a question, a yearning for democracy around the
world? The neo-cons would say so and this is was, for some of them, the
push behind Iraq etc. Globialization and technology add to this. We are
all so much more interconnected than we once were and events have a way
of spilling over from country to country. Authoritarian regimes are
going to have more and more difficulty in restraining this. In Iran with
its very young population it will be even more of a problem. Will they
become even more authoritarian or not? What about the response of the
other countries, especially the US? Some say the President should be
more outspoken. I disagree! This must be played very carefully. The
President is doing it well as far as I can see. Now enter the whole
issue of a theocracy. I would guess that most of the leadership
including those clerics like Rafsanjoni(sp)the former President who has
sided with the dissidents, still believe in a theocracy, more benevolent
or not. Indeed can democracy exist within theocracy? What about the
issue of tribalism? Our son when he was in Iraq, two tours with the
USMC, working with various tribal leaders, said that this was the issue.
Everything was tribal and that played a much more important role in what
was happening there than did politics, or religion. I don't know.

John

[herb.davis]

Dear Matt,  You wrote, " Although there may not be anything heretical about leading our historic churches into a slow and quiet death – I hope that this is not what our Rock and Founder has in mind." Boy I thought I had a good line with "our righteousness is not in our being right" or I might add, "our righteousness is not being successful."  You really hit it on the head.  I whole heartily agree with you that our righteousness is not in our dying as a denomination or tradition.  I would hope that your last 20 years of ministry would not be a funeral ministry.  I think growth   should be our number one concern and I don't mean spiritual growth but growth in numbers.  Many of us in Confession Christ has always been high on evangelism.  Couple of comments:

 

1. I love our tradition and think it is a great gift to the Christian Church and I am not embarrassed about  pushing the Reformed tradition.  I also believe that Jesus is the Lord and Savior and I would be out to convert anyone including our Moslem or secular friends.  Growth is one of two ways A. high birth rate and high retention of children.  B. aggressive evangelism.  The UCC doesn't have a chance with A so we better be about B.

 

2.  My suggestion would be that clergy salary be related to growth in numbers.  I observed during my last 20 years that every year there was a clergy salary resolution at our annual meeting.  The resolution called for increasing clergy salary but nothing about increase members in our congregations. Clergy salaries went up but the membership went down.  In fact a funny thing happened as the lay members decreased clergy members increased.  So we had more and more clergy getting paid more and more money from less and less people.  It sounds like AIG and General Motors.   Our salary structure maybe so high that some small congregations will not be able to call clergy.  Better paid clergy did not result in growth.    

 

3.  I would suggest that congregations if they want to grow take a look at having some relationship between salary and growth in numbers.  Or that pastors might see this as a way to move congregations so both parties are moved to evangelize.  Tricky business but it might result in some small shift in our concern about converting folks to the Way.  This is too simple it must be heretical. 

 

I think the fields are waiting for the harvest.  Let's go!

 

Peace, Herb

 

[herb.davis]

Dear Jane,  What a careful and helpful report on chap. 8.  Your note on the inconsistent in Tony's use of the Rules of Order and his middle class values on committees was helpful.  It remained me of a person who got up at a church meeting and made passionate pled for settling Viet Nam refugees.  The talk hit a spark and the congregation became deeply involved in settling many families, but the woman never did any thing else.  She made the speech and then was overcome with family and professional issues and disappeared for about a year.  I don't know if that is how the Spirit works and I agree that if the Spirit has to wait on us being open it's not much of a holy spirit. 

 

I also think we would spend some time on the Incarnation the Word become Flesh and how that changes the world and our congregational life.  If the King of Kings is present with us with truly are a different people.  We know ourselves as different and we act differently.  We need to think more deeply about the manager and the cross/resurrection. 

 

Thanks again.  Herb

[herb.davis] 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 -----Original Message-----
From: Confessi...@googlegroups.com [mailto:Confessi...@googlegroups.com]On Behalf Of bct...@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2009 10:53 PM
To: Confessi...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: What's Theology Got To Do With It? Chapter 8, The Holy Spirit.

[bct...@aol.com]

Dear Herb, 

First, thank you very much for your positive response to my posting.  I was admittedly a bit out on a limb, given that I was not too excited about the chapter. 

Second, I hope you don't mind me teasing you, but you do make some wonderful typos sometimes --- like saying that Christ rather than Chris is out of town.  I think what you wrote here is a typo, and it's the best one yet:

"We need to think more deeply about the manager and the cross/resurrection."

I think you probably meant to write "manger" rather than "manager," because we were discussing the incarnation. But this came out perfectly!  In my view, Robinson's suggestions for congregational vitality, particularly his ideas about how meetings should be run, had too much "manager" in them, and not enough of the cross/resurrection, as you said, and not enough of the Spirit as Presence and Jesus as Presence, as we both said.

So maybe what you wrote was a slip of the fingers on the keyboard, but I also sense the Spirit breaking through. 

Well said!

Jane

[bct...@aol.com]

Dear friends in the CC Open Forum,

Long post coming ...

Given that there have been some postings in recent days and weeks about the number of "gray heads" that appear in some of our churches and theological conferences and the like, and about trying to grow church membership, I thought I'd give you this "trip report" to tell you about a different type of church.  I am writing to you from my hotel in Virginia Beach, VA, and I have been down here for the high school graduation of my niece and nephew, my brother's children. 

I went to the Wave Church in VA Beach yesterday with my brother and his wife, as well as my father and his new wife.  My father just recently turned 81, and his wife will be turning 89 this coming Saturday, and besides the two of them, I only saw one other white head in the entire place. 

And what a place Wave Church is.  You can check out their Web site here:  http://www.wavechurch.com/. 

I was here a few times several years ago, but since that time, this already big church has built an entirely new and huge complex for what is now called the "mothership" by some folks.  The new church building is a sleek, curved, very modern building, and the sanctuary has very comfortable theater-style chairs. They have three levels of seating that slope gradually upwards, with special curtains to close each of the two sections in the back when not as many people show up, so that it feels more intimate. There is an enormous stage in front where the band and praise singers lead the music, which lasts 15 to 20 minutes at the beginning. There is one very, very, very long and huge screen, with two smaller but still big screens on either side, so you can follow the words of the music. They sing all the verses of their praise songs over and over and over again, so after a while, you don't really need the words, although you do feel the need to sit down! 

And the songs are all about Jesus. Talk about one of those "churches of just one Person" that Robinson and others have discussed. This one is a church about Jesus. 

The part of the service where they ask for tithes and donations to their mission work, which is a significant part of their ministry, goes on for about 15 minutes, and it takes a while to take up the collection. 

I do like their senior minister and have heard him preach before. His sermon is 30 minutes or longer, and yesterday he did a very modern yet biblically-based sermon for Father's Day on what it means to be a real man, according to the Bible, as opposed to TV and movies.  I didn't agree with everything, but I felt the sermon had a lot of merit. And you should have seen all the young men in the church. Young men of every age, most of them with very young children.  I would say the congregation is about 80% Caucasian and maybe 20% people of color, so it's not overly diverse in that way, given that it's in a diverse area. But the young people, including young men were there. And he was telling them what they needed to know to be a real man, including a man of God and a family man and an honest man in business or whatever pursuit a man is in.  And he told them how to pick themselves up and move on, if something doesn't go quite right for them. 

(By the way, the senior pastor also mentioned the Father and Holy Spirit, which I think were the only time they were mentioned, but at least it made me feel better!  And how often are the "Father" and Spirit mentioned in some of our UCC churches?)

This church is huge and growing, and it sure is vital!  

Not only do they have their new mothership building, but they are building a new satellite church in VA Beach.  That new church will have a fitness center and indoor skating rink, and the mothership has more than one Gloria Jean's coffee stand.  Also, they just opened up a Wave Church in Israel, and they showed a video of the first worship service, where two people were brought to Christ. 

So what is it we want in our churches?  A particular type of worship or liturgy? Lots of new members?  People with more than one skin color?  People with more than one color of hair?  Churches of just one Person?  Trinitarian churches?  Vital churches?  

This church sure is vital!  I was exhausted when it was over, and the place is a madhouse when it lets out, although they are fairly orderly in their vast parking lot.  Oh by the way, I forgot to mention that the moment my father and his wife and I got out of the car when we first arrived, someone instantly appeared in a golf cart and drove us to the front entrance.  I guess it was easy to spot those white heads getting out of the car, and I have to say the very young man who gave us a lift was a very warm and friendly and welcoming person.

Just food for thought and a very long "trip report."

Jane

[Jean Easland]

Preacher Brother Herb: A perfect 10 on your take on evangelism! I told the church I am starting to pastor next week, " I'll take $400.00 a week for six months if the church grows we can talk about money."  It is so obvious, if a church does not evangelize it dies in 1 generation or less in today's rapid changing world.

      I love you when that fire rises up in you !!!!!!! Thanks, the pastors shoe leather is the most holy part of his dress. I plan to do some door to door cold canvassing, two by two if I can get anybody to go along!! When I was out on the cape the last time I hitch hiked around one day and I had a real talk about Jesus with 3 people one woman came under such conviction that she couldn't stand it so see asked the driver to pull over an get rid of me, he wouldn't and brought me clear out to Craigville. I think I messed up their noon dalliance. 

      Why are we so stupid to let the Mormon's and the JW's steal unbelievers right from under our noses--------shame on us!!!!  I think I will set a goal to talk to three people a day about Jesus when I start next week. Those two country churches filled my tank...They just came alive when Jn. 3;16 was preached. It all goes back to faithfulness and the Holy Spirit working away, HE SIMPLY ASKS US TO RISK THE INITIATIVE, all else follows from evangelism!!!!! CC is the best hope the UCC has-------Herb, now give me a break-----"you have never had a born again experience" ya right, you are one of the most powerful born again witness on the line. All three of you are Gabe, Willis and Herb, it is your witness that brings the rest of us sinners up above ourselves into the Lord Jesus Christ !

    Fishing is good here, I took a pastor and his 10 year old son out this morning----------yummmmm, 5 nice fate walleyed pike in the box. He got a hook stuck deep in his finger, I told him he has two choices, pull it on through and cut off the the barb and we will keep fishing or I'll take him in to the emergency room. He pulled it through-----we caught some more fish and laughed about "catching the big one". His 10 year old son learned a valuable lesson about choosing life over quitting. He got pretty faint watching his Dad hurt and bleed so we went ashore and let him chill awhile, then I finally said, "time to get to fishing, one fish on the line and you will forget all about the pain and the blood. The whole deal led to a great discussion on some of the suicide funerals we have done. A neighbor two doors down just killed himself last week his son played with their twin girls and the Dad  was the first on the scene. Yesterday somebody blew their head off in the local post office entry way. We talked about our anger and emptiness of such and then we were over taken by the beauty and grandeur of the lake we were fishing on, Lake Oahe. We came in full of thanksgiving and hopefully new resolve to offer human beings SALVATION..... " They were afraid in the boat so they woke up the Master"...............the little faith we have begets faithfulness, it can save people lives.............. .........................folks we need to get some fishing done!!!!!-------------------Roger

----- Original Message -----

From: herb.davis

To: Confessi...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 11:34 AM

Subject: RE: What's Theology Got To Do With It? Chapter 8, The Holy Spirit.

[Willis E. Elliott]

Matt & Chris

Excellent interchange between you two (normal Staupitz, neurotic Luther, perfectionist Finney...).
1
Probably all in our Open Forum go with *simul justus et peccator*: accepting God's *charis" (gift of grace) nudges us to a grateful mind that resists but does not entirely eliminate sinning - though baptism proleptically defeats "sin, death, and the devil." ("Send the devil back to hell" is a documentary we'll be hearing more of.)
2
Herb raised the fear issue. "God is love," but worse than death is what may happen to you after death: God the Judge may get you (or God the Lover may greet you). The Bible's developed view of the afterlife is that it's in +/- moral sequence to this life: a person's attitudes/actions have con-sequences here & hereafter. We monotheists have no god-of-the-underworld or god-of-the-afterlife: we have One God, the Judge of the living & the (physically) dead.
3
As sanction for repentance & faith(fullness), our Lord preaches courage in facing this-world adversaries: Be more afraid of what God can do to you after you're dead than of anything anybody can do to you while you're still alive.
4
The gospel both offers grace (upon repentance from sin & confession of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ) & threatens dis-grace (upon those who deliberately reject the Lord Jesus Christ. This offer-and-threat is for all human beings throughout life, including counseling the dying & preaching to the bereaved. / Note on the funeral or memorial service: The gospel's offer-and-threat should be proclaimed, a proclamation which eliminates the possibility of making the general-blanket and therefore amoral announcement that the deceased "has gone to a better life." / In Hebrew-Jewish bodily imagery, the salvation-project (one might say) is to get past God's hands into his arms. Hands = judgment (Heb.10.31: "fearful" or "terrible"): Arms = support, refuge (Deut.33.27: "underneath are the everlasting arms"), love, hope (L.2.28 [the baby Jesus in Simeon's arms], M.9.36 [the child in Jesus' arms]). (My favorite image of dying: "walking into the arms of God" [Aquinas]. God's open-welcoming arms is a still [photo]; walking into his arms is a clip [movie].)
5
Only "the redeemed" get to walk into God's welcoming arms. But who are they? Potentially, everybody: "Christ died for all." God's intention is clear (e.g., 2P.3.9: "not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance"; 1Tim.2.3-4 ["wants all to be saved"]). But the cost to God in creating us free is that he doesn't always get his way: man's intention can cancel God's (& has done so in all of us time & again since the "original sin" of Gn.3). Two implications:
5.1
WHO is ultimately saved? Obama says the one thing he can't believe about traditional Christianity is that no non-Christian will be saved. But early Chistian theology did not make that generalization from early Christian rhetoric, which (necessarily, as rhetoric) appealed for yes against no, grace against works, heaven against hell. Theology (unlike philosophy) is rooted in devotion to the Lord of meaning & mystery, who reserves judgment to himself. The Roman Church has complex rules & processes for "Saint-Making" (a Ken Woodward booktitle), but the Holy Spirit makes saints wherever souls come open to the lights which (we Christians believe) leads them (in this world or the next) to the one who says "I am the Light of the World." In the ecstasy of eschatological devotion, an early Christian hymn (Phil.2.6-11) predicts that "every knee [in the three-story world] shall bow...Jesus Christ is Lord...." (not in submission to an all-powerful tyrant [the hymn is about our Lord's humility]. but willingly, with [I think] the implication that the unwilling fade out of existence ["perish," Jn.3.16]). (Contrast the soft eschatology of Phil.2 with the hard eschatology of the Bible's last book. But, [again, in my opinion] it's not an either/or: the Lordship of Christ is both relative & absolute.)
5.2
HOW are we saved? The NT gives a rich variety of responses to this question. By grace (Ac.15.11; Eph.2.5,8 ["by grace through faith"]), by faith (L.7.50 ["your faith has saved you"]; in Jesus' resurrection: Ro.10.5), by public witness-"confession" that "Jesus is Lord" (Ro.10.9), hope (Ro.8.24), baptism (which "saves you...by the resurrection of Jesus Christ": 1P.3.20-21), by belief (M.16.16 ["believes and is baptized"]; L.8.12 ["believe and be saved"]), by love (implied in numerous John [Gospel and Letters] passages, though "saved by love" does not occur; rather than "saved," John prefer, in response to faith in God's Son, the gift of "eternal life" [3.15,16,36; 5.24; 6.40; 20.31]).
6
What about "works"? They cannot earn salvation, but they have afterlife consequences. It's not true (except physically) that "you can't take it with you." You take it all with you & dump it in front of Jesus, who paws it all over & gives you your "due" according as your deeds were "good or bad" (2Cor.5.10).
7
Chris, I like your exposition of justification tightly told in relation to your own life-story. Ro.7 says we must confess that sin continues after salvation (Luther's *simul justus et peccator*); but some other NT material sees sin as ceasing at the point of salvation (Jn.8.11 ["sin no more"]; Heb.10.26-27 [modified by an Apostolic Father, who allows for one sin-&-repentance after "salvation"]; 1Jn. (while 1.8-9 & 2.2 seem to leave repentance open; but 2.10 denies any inner tendency to sin in those who practice brother-love; & 3.6,9 affirms that sinning proves one has not "seen" or "known" Christ: "No one who is born of God will continue in sin...he cannot go on sinning"; 4.16-18 repeats, from vs.8, "God is love"; "whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him" - implying no further sinning-with-fearing, for "there is no fear in love"; 5.4 sharpens the line between church & world, "our faith" being "the victory that has overcome the world" [an implication being that sinning after being "born of God" would reverse this victory]; 5.18 gives the reason for the letter [& draws together the themes of love/light-truth/life: "I write...so that you may know that you have eternal life." // The generalization in 3Jn.11 comes at no-sin-after-rebirth from a different angle, in the assessment of leaders: "Anyone who does what is good is from God. Anyone who does what is evil has not seen God."

Grace and peace--
Willis

----- Original Message -----
From: fcba%40comcast.net
To: Confessi...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2009 7:51 AM
Subject: Re: What's Theology Got To Do With It? Chapter 8, The Holy Spirit.

Matt,

I have few moments before church to continue. John Stauputz was Luther's mentor and teacher. John is like most of us Christians in that though he had in his intellectual worldview a works oriented doctrine of justification but he did not live by it. He had a wonderful view of God as loving in Christ and told Luther to look to Christ. His instincts led him to live a life that was justified. Luther did not have those normal instincts. He was radically logical and tried to live with the church's doctrine of any sin that is unconfessed is unforgiven and leads to hell. Therefore he became neurotic and driven to perfection while being very fearful of a very wrathful God.

Most Christsians are like Stauputz and that is a blessing and in a sense they skip the logic of the doctrine they have been taught because they have a wonderful view of he kindness of God. But when on does get the doctrine of justification one is freed from so much weight, condemnation, guilt, worry, self-centered examination of one's life that I make it my goal to reexplain justification all the time.

One does not need to understand justification in order to live it but understanding it is such a blessing.

Chris Anderson

----- Original Message -----
From: "fcba%40comcast.net" <fc...@comcast.net>
To: Confessi...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 11:27:24 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: What's Theology Got To Do With It? Chapter 8, The Holy Spirit.

Matt,

I am on vacation so I do not have time to actually answer you and I would trust Herb's answer better anyway BUT You must recall that my theology reflects my life journey. I was a convert in the Jesus Movement, having grown up Catholic. When I was taught the Arminian doctrine of justification as basically forgiveness I actually tried to live it out whereas those who are raised in a Holiness tradition have learned to take certain things with a grain of salt. Therefore when it was stressed that one should "go and sin no more" I was shocked that I kept on sinning in my mind and in my actions. My frustrations were and are frustrations of someone who tried to live what I was taught.

In most evangelical churches justification is basically forgiveness. Imputation is not taught. Therefore being born again is great because you are forgiven but the problem appears when you sin again. You wonder maybe I was not converted? Maybe I didn't really give all my heart to Jesus so you go forward again to the altar to give your heart. Then you sin again. Then you pray and fast because the altar did not do it. Etc.

This is a doctrinal issue that came out of the experience of Luther. The churches that stress sanctification come off like the Pharisee in the parable of the Publican and the Pharisee. He is superior, better, more holy, closer to God, committed, discipled, a tither, a serious Christian, a born again Christian, a real Christian, etc. The publican merely says "Lord, have mercy on me a sinner."

The problem is that what is missed in most Christian preaching is the realization that the prayer of the publican is our life long prayer. It is not a some time prayer and that the next week the publican returns to the temple dressed like and acting like the Pharisee. He still prays "Lord, have mercy upon me a sinner."

Chris Anderson

----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Crebbin" <mcre...@sbcglobal.net>
To: Confessi...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 11:07:52 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: RE: What's Theology Got To Do With It? Chapter 8, The Holy Spirit.

“justification rightly taught” –

Chris – can you tell me where in the world this is currently being “rightly taught? And has the church lived "simul justus et paeccator" as you understand it in a way enfleshes this theology in word and deed? Just wondering…

God’s Peace in Christ,

Matt Crebbin

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Confessi...@googlegroups.com [mailto:Confessi...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of fcba%40comcast.net
Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 7:14 PM
To: Confessi...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: What's Theology Got To Do With It? Chapter 8, The Holy Spirit.

Herb & John,

I think that Robinson is the perfect politician on these issues. (I realize that I am falling into the words of Jeremiah Wright in his criticism of Obama but I am actually not being negative.) Robinson seeks to show us that any church can go overboard on either justificaiton, sancitifcation or vocation. This is a neat schema that touches all the basis. Robinson needs to teach in such a way to reach those he is trying to reach.

My problem is that schemas don't work that well in reality. The great example is that there are heretics that have been Arian, there are hereitics that have been subordinationists but there really have not been tritheists. That is giving equal time to each heresy because of a neat shema is nice mathematically but it is not reality. I believe that it is the same thing here but that is because at heart I am deeply influenced by Luther and the wonder fo being freed from Finney's view of justification.

There can be lots of problems associated with sanctification...second blessing...baptism in the Spirit only by speaking in tongues...Phariseeism....etc...but I have problems seeing errors coming from overemphasizing justificaiton.....if one teaches that one is simultaneously sinner and justified and that our life is to be lived out of gratitude how can I over emphasize this? WIll one become too thankful for God's grace? Steven Brown states that if one is preaching this right one sounds very close to an antinomian but it still have to be preached.

Barbara Brown Taylor is often wonderful but she is wrong here...justification rightly taught does not lead to "cheap grace." It leads to humility and attempts to live a life of thanksgiving. It leads to worshipping with hymns such as "Amazing Love."

Admittedly I am biased on this but my problem is that in America it was the one who coined the phrase "cheap grace" that criticized the church as being Pelagian and not having experienced the Reformation of "simul justus et paeccator." Our churches do not really teach justification they teach that one can be born again and then one has to "go and sin no more" and by using Christ's words they think that they are teaching justification. We are closer to Constantine who would not be baptized until his death for fear of sinning than to Luther who said "Sin boldly."

[Willis E. Elliott]

Matt & Chris

 

Excellent interchange between you two (normal Staupitz, neurotic Luther, perfectionist Finney...).

1

Probably all in our Open Forum go with *simul justus et peccator*: accepting God's *charis" (gift of grace) nudges us to a grateful mind that resists but does not entirely eliminate sinning - though baptism proleptically defeats "sin, death, and the devil."  ("Send the devil back to hell" is a documenary we'll be hearing more of.)

2

Herb raised the fear issue.  "God is love," but worse than death is what may happen to you after death: God the Judge may get you (or God the Lover may greet you).

3

As sanction for repentance & faith(fulness), our Lord preaches courage in facing this-world adversaries: Be more afraid of what God can do to you after you're dead than of anything anybody can do to you while you're still alive.

 

----- Original Message -----

From: fcba%40comcast.net

To: Confessi...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2009 7:51 AM

[Gabe]

Iran commentators,

In the interest of dealing with one theological aspect of the Iran
ferment--globalization--I'd like to attach some documents
that reflect the Stackhouse project--4 volumes , 3 of which he edited
and the last which he wrote, under the auspices of the Princeton
Center of Theological Inquiry. This is especially important to explore
as the General Synod, I understand, is going to take up the subject of
globalization. One document is by Andy Armstrong of the Acton
Congregational Church who is doing his D.Min on religion and
globalization at Pittsburgh Seminary which bears directly on the Synod
discussion. The problem is I don't know how to attach documents in
this venue. Help would be appreciated.

--Gabe

[bct...@aol.com]

Gabe,

The way I finally attached some files was to use the CC Google Groups Web page:
http://groups.google.com/group/Confessing-Christ

You have to be signed in to the Google Groups page for this to work. 

At the bottom of the above page is a "Files" section, and you can click on the button that says "upload files" that is toward the right side of the screen.  After you click the upload files button, you will see a blank white box with the word "browse" next to it.  Click on browse, and you will be given the opportunity to select a file from your file folders.  Once you select a file, click on "open" and it should start the uploading process.  You will have to repeat this process for each file. 

You will then have to send people a link to this page, so that they know where to find the files.

Also, the files seem to be accessible to the public, so I would suggest not posting things in this fashion if you or the author has not clearly identified them as copyrighted material. 

This worked for me when I posted the two files for two of Willis's Thinksheets.

Jane

-----Original Message-----
From: Gabe <gfa...@comcast.net>
To: Confessing Christ Open Forum <Confessi...@googlegroups.com>

[stmatt...@aol.com]

Friends,
   You may recall that nearly 20 years ago, it was a fax machine in Newton Centre near A.N.T.S. that provided the world with ongoing reports about the events in Tienamen Square. The Chinese regime could not hide its brutality from the world or its people. Here we are two decades later and an Iranian regime's actions are exposed by Youtube clips and Twitter. Since then China's meteoric rise, like our global economic meltdown, has required new forms of analysis as we have entered a novus ordo seclorem (new world order). I think globalization best summarizes our present reality with its blessings and curses, but the term is as complex as what it attempts to describe. I believe our teacher, colleague and friend Max Stackhouse has given us the most helpful resource in his God and Globalization series. I encourage you to read it and I think you'll find that his work, whether or not you fully agree with his position, is among the most comprehensive you will encounter. I also believe you will come away realizing that the older paradigms for our social  and theological analysis can no longer adequately address our situation.   

   I've upload a paper on the CC web page called 'Does Globalization Require A Status Confessioni?". In it, I reflect on some of these things in the context of the local church. Given that the UCC is taking this topic up  at General Synond, it may introduce you to some of the issues. I'd appreciate your comments. 

In Christ, Andy 

-----Original Message-----
From: John Cedarleaf <jn...@choiceonemail.com>
To: Confessi...@googlegroups.com

---

A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!

[Gabe]

Andy Armstrong,

Glad you have posted here, and also provided one of the attachments I
was planning to place into the conversation. Participants here should
know that you are doing your D. Min. on the relation of theological
matters to globalization at Pittsburgh Seminary and recently sponsored
with Confessing Christ of Massachusetts a conference at the Acton
church you serve, on globalization, with a range of folk deeply
involved in its issues, as well as having Max on hand to bring the
learnings from the four volume series he edited under the auspices of

the Princeton Center of Theological Inquiry.

The timeliness of this subject, as you point out is not only the Iran
phenomenon of the effects of technological, cultural and religious
globalization, but that the UCC General Synod this week will be
considering a resolution on the subject that needs some critical
scrutiny.

Thank you, Jane, for telling me how to do an attahcment. I am still
working on it.

--Gabe



On Jun 23, 7:13 pm, stmattschu...@aol.com wrote:
> Friends,
> ?? You may recall that nearly 20 years ago, it was a fax machine in Newton Centre near A.N.T.S. that provided the world with ongoing reports about the events in Tienamen Square. The?Chinese regime could not hide its brutality from?the world?or its people. Here we are two decades later and an?Iranian regime's actions are exposed by Youtube clips and Twitter.?Since then China's meteoric rise, like our global economic meltdown, has required new forms of analysis as we have entered a novus ordo seclorem (new world order). I think globalization best summarizes our present reality with its blessings and curses, but the term is as complex as what it attempts to describe.?I?believe our teacher, colleague and friend Max Stackhouse has given us the most helpful?resource in his God and Globalization series. I encourage you to read it?and?I think you'll find that his work, whether or not you fully agree with his position, is among the most comprehensive you will encounter.?I also believe you will come away?realizing that the older paradigms for?our social? and theological analysis can no longer adequately?address our?situation.???
>
> ?? I've upload a paper on the CC web page called 'Does Globalization Require A Status Confessioni?".?In it,?I reflect on some of these things in the context of the local church. Given that the UCC is taking this topic up? at General Synond, it may introduce you to?some of the issues. I'd appreciate your comments.?
>
> In Christ, Andy?

>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Cedarleaf <j...@choiceonemail.com>
> To: Confessi...@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Mon, Jun 22, 2009 9:28 am
> Subject: Re: Iran
>

> Iran discussion particpants,?
> ?
> It is hard to pull apart all the various nuances of this situation, isn't it? As Gabe has said there are many theologies in Islam just as in Christianity. They are in conflict, often with one another and add to this power struggles among the clerics and the politicians......Also is there, and this is a question, a yearning for democracy around the world? The neo-cons would say so and this is was, for some of them, the push behind Iraq etc. Globialization and technology add to this. We are all so much more interconnected than we once were and events have a way of spilling over from country to country. Authoritarian regimes are going to have more and more difficulty in restraining this. In Iran with its very young population it will be even more of a problem. Will they become even more authoritarian or not? What about the response of the other countries, especially the US? Some say the President should be more outspoken. I disagree! This must be played very carefully. The President is doing it well as far as I can see. Now enter the whole issue of a theocracy. I would guess that most of the leadership including those clerics like Rafsanjoni(sp)the former President who has sided with the dissidents, still believe in a theocracy, more benevolent or not. Indeed can democracy exist within theocracy? What about the issue of tribalism? Our son when he was in Iraq, two tours with the USMC, working with various tribal leaders, said that this was the issue. Everything was tribal and that played a much more important role in what was happening there than did politics, or religion. I don't know.?
> ?
> John?
> > Participants,?
> >?
> > How can we not reflect theologically on the events in Iran,?
> > especially yesterday and today? No doubt many of us have been?
> > following these awesome events on the New York Times Led blog, The?
> > Daily Dish of Andrew Sullivan or some other minute by minute?
> > testimonies, Internet's YouTube videos, Facebook, Twitterings, cell?
> > phone-picture-taking, etc. from Iran.I have been glued to the?
> > computer, more so that the TV which very often depends on the newer?
> > technological venues itself.?
> >?
> > For one, it certainly means we have to become familiar with the?
> > Islamic theologies and their sacred Book, I say "theologies" because?
> > of the dramatic distinction we've seen by the multitudes shouting "God?
> > is great" from Teheran rooftops supporting the protest movement contra?
> > the same when uttered by the Supreme Leader and his supporters, all?
> > this reflected in the sharp division that has developed among Iranian?
> > clerics (and some of which we saw at work at Craigville Colloquy 24 on?
> > Christian-Muslim issues). For another, consider Max Stackhouse on?
> > globalization who has spoken at various Confessing Christ events on?
> > this subject, edited a series on "God and Globalization" including one?
> > volume he did, plus a Festschrift for him coming out soon edited by?
> > Scott Paeth and a colleague. Is the political "revolution" we are?
> > seeing played out in Iran, being watched by the world somehow linked?
> > to Max's thesis of the importance of technological, cultural and?
> > religious globalization processes? Rather than just the "economistic"?
> > theories of globalzation which, while rightly criticizing the West's?
> > imperial ways, have failed to see these other dimensions now so?
> > manifest in Iranian ferment??
> >?
> > >From "Mary's song" and well beyond it, there's much to say?
> > theologically about what is transpiring right this minute across the?
> > waters.?
> >?
> > --Gabe?
> >?
> > --Gabe?
> >?
> >?
> > ?

[Gabe]

Iran/globalization discussants,

I just uploaded in the Confessing Christ "File" system (as per Janet's
instructions in an earlier post on how to do it.) a review I did of
the Stackhouse volume 4 on "God and Globalization" for the Center of
Theological Inquiry at Princeton. I also see Andy's paper that
pertains to the General Synod resolution on globalization. A fruitful
discussion here would benefit from Max himself, Scott, Andy, Fred,
Jim, Willis et al who have opined on this to weigh in. Every day in
Iran the effects of technological-religious-cultural globalization
become more compelling.

--Gabe

[Gabe]

Iran theologians,

My second and last post for the day.

If you are following the unbelievable drama on the streets of Iran
these very minutes in the New York Times Lede blog or the like, as
people around the world are in this new global Internet reality, you
will be asking theological questions. Here below is one that just
appeared on The Daily Dish/Atlantic Magazine site of Andrew Sullivan,
illustrating the fact of varying Islamic "theologies."

--Gabe
..................................................................................................................
24 Jun 2009 11:52 am
A Theological Showdown?

Hilzoy sees one coming:
What is true, I think, is that the current events in Islam will force
a reexamination of the theological underpinnings of the Islamic
Republic. I am not a scholar of Islam, so take what I say with caution
(and please feel free to correct my errors), but my understanding is
that those underpinnings turn on Ayatollah Khomeini's novel reading of
the concept of the Guardianship of Jurists (velayat-e faqih). As I
understand it, Islamic jurists (in Shi'a Islam) are normally thought
to have guardianship over various rather non-contentious things:
things that are plainly within their purview (e.g., religious trusts),
people who are plainly in need of guardians (orphans, the insane), and
so forth. But within orthodox Shi'a theology, they are not supposed to
have guardianship over whole countries. The idea that they should was
an innovation of Ayatollah Khomeini's, and in theology, innovation is
generally not seen as a good thing.

[Willis E. Elliott]

Andy

1

On the CC web page, I clicked on "Resources" but didn't get your globalization piece.  Please tell me what I did wrong.  Congratulations on (1) your pursuit of the PhD & (2) the topic.

2

Not all the effects of improved communications are good.  The internal dissemination of info on the T.Sq. "brutality" was sufficient to pacify the Chinese: no significant street-action since.  The dominant current public attitude (as I have it from a number of sources, some direct) is that the one-party system is sufficiently efficient (1) to repress any insurrection & (2) to maintain relative prosperity for all.  But as the economy continues to decline, the underground rumbling will increase.

3

While our Declaration of Intendance gives to freedom both theological & natural grounding, social psychologists see it (also) as a product amenable to the law of supply & demand.  At present in China, the supply is adequate: most of the populace, it seems, feel free enough, so the demand for more of it is low.  But in Iran, the supply seems (to the younger 2/3rds of the populace) too low, so the demand is rising; but the one-man (Supreme Leader clergyman) system remains powerful enough to repress demonstrations: now, the streets are quiet.

4

The law of the perpetual itch to expand one's awareness & life-involvement overrides the law of supply & demand.  As Browning put it, God has given us a reach beyond our grasp - & no earthly supply can meet this demand.  Shortly before Harmon Bro's death, I was delighted to put in his hands, from my library, a clean copy of his mother's "More Than We Are" (by Marguerite Harmon Bro): he had no copy of this classic.  God, who is more than we are, persists in calling us to become more than we have been in knowledge, love, wisdom....  My country & family freed me to pursue "the increase of appreciable awareness" (Wieman's phrase for God) in scratching my itches in the order & degree I have chosen.  I believe in evolution, but observe that the one whom Darwin in the first six editions of "...Origin..." repeated called "the Creator" made our particular species hugely superior in curiosity with appropriate powers to scratch our itches & a satisfied dissatisfaction to motivate us to More Than (in worship, research, creativity, service).  /  The good society & good government will honor this divine gift to our species.

5

Reading through the current Eerdmans catalog, I joyfully thanked the Lord for all the scratched itches that have made it into print, all the lines of continuing development in our knowledge and understanding, especially of our Christian faith & life.  Including David Bentley Hart's third book, a collection of scintillating essays; & Tony Robinson's "Changing the Conversation," with suggestions for ten congregational conversations enabling us (in Will Willimon's words) "not only to change our talk but also to change our walk."

6

The law of the evolution of government (on which I've re-attached my current "OnLine" column) indicates that Iran is more advanced toward freedom than is China: Iran has national elections so-far kept under control by the Supreme Leader's vetting of candidates, whereas elections in China are limited to the lower (non-national) levels.  Right now, in Afghanistan & Pakistan, almost all the levels in the evolution of government are in action.  I see bio- & socio-evolution as a continuum; & see "the kingdom of God" as a leap beyond this development as in parallel with the leap homo sapens is beyond all other species.  Andy, this line of thinking reminds me of this sentence in your post (below): "...the older paradigms for our social and theological analysis can no longer adequately address our situation."

5

The law of responsible freedom states that political freedom ("human rights") is viable only if the citizenry

practices courageous obedience to a higher law than government.  In Wm.Penn's classic maxim, "Men will serve God or tyrants."  For our Founding Fathers, the higher law was compounded of the Biblical sense of divine origin/destiny & the Enlightenment sense of human dignity, both standing over against England's weak theocracy (George III's "divine right" having been qualified downward since AD 1215).  (Our two-party system jostles the values of responsibility & freedom.)

6

As a progressive evangelical, I am a believer in the biblical God, not in progress.  But I have no doubt that to "think anew" & "act anew," we have greater resources for both than our forebears had, and that these greater resources are gifts of God through nature & grace.  The present theological project, as I see it, is the integration "under God" of  the three evolutions, physico- / bio- / sociopolitical.

7

Obama has a fine sense of the evolution of "law and order," so he's not too excited over "Iran" (as McCain is).  Empires vainly dream of a monopoly of violence; nations need it, and must in general be free to work it out for themselves - as we did twice (under Washington, over England; under Lincoln, over the Confederate States).

8

As nationalism transcended tribalism & imperialism transcended nationalism, so globalization is in process of in-some-ways transcending all smaller ecopolitical arrangements.  Thinking of the factors in play, I remembered a dialog I had with Avery (later Cardinal) Dulles at the National Faith and Order Colloquium, 6.7-11.70.  He'd sent me his presentation paper,"Authority and Diversity in the Christian Community," & I sent him mine in response to his.  His began thus: "The two papers to be prepared for this meeting both contain in their titles the word 'community'."  My title: "Stability and Conflict in Community."  (The papers of the previous year's colloquy, "Salvation in Life," were published in "Unity Trends."  I'm not aware of our two papers having been published anywhere.)  /  What interests me in the two papers, vis-a-vis our "Iran" thread, is the four terms.  Avery p2: "...stability, conflict, authority, and diversity could be paired in various ways.  Dr.Elliott has been asked to discuss stability and conflict; I have been asked to treat authority and diversity....we shall be touching on the same problems.  It is scarcely possible to speak of stability without discussing authority, or of diversity without reference to conflict."  This p5 quote is relevant to "Iran": "When a ruler...becomes a tyrant, he may retain his power, but he loses his authority."  /  One part of my paper dealt with the pendulum swings from stability to anarchy (excess freedom) and from conflict to tyranny (excess order).  /  I've never been much for publication, but maybe this dialog should be in "First Things" - or at least Avery's 27pp.

 

Grace and peace--

Willis

[Bct...@aol.com]

The files that Andy and Gabe posted are on this CC Google Groups page, in the files section at the bottom:

http://groups.google.com/group/Confessing-Christ

[herb.davis]

Gabe, I didn't get the theological insight on Iran. It seems that the guys
with the guns usually do better than the guys and gals without the guns
unless guns aren't allowed. What impressed me was the uppity woman in the
protest. They seemed powerful. I would like some reason for the powerful
women in this society that does not seem to affirm women. I think Obama
might be lucky again since Iran will be weakened after this internal
struggle that probably goes deeper than street protest. Now if we can just
get the price of oil down then Iran will be in trouble. I am not sure how
globalization and Iran relate, unless it is tweeter which is one part of
globalization.

Secondly your comment on globalization I assume was in relation to the
resolution at General Synod which is related to Andy's paper. The move to
condemn Globalization in the World Alliance of Reformed Churches statement
should be considered by General Synod. Andy's paper did not convince me
that the General Synod resolution should be defeated but it was a scholarly
and powerful statement. I am still working on your reviews. I am no expert
on Globalization, and I have not read Max's work, but I would probably in my
ignorance want some restrain on some aspects of Globalization. Andy seems
to think that is not possible since Globalization is a given. Where do you
stand on all this Gabe, just outside raising questions or do you have some
passion about the issue. My the way you can post three times and if you
have a divine revelation you can post four times. Peace, Herb
-

[Norman Bendroth]

Hi folks,

I've been following the conversation (all topics) from afar, but thought I'd jump in once in awhile. With Andy, I think Globalization is a train that has left the station and isn't coming back real soon, but with Herb, think that breaks need to be put on re environmental degradation and workers' right. Tom Friedman has pulled back on some of his breathless enthusiasm found in The Earth is Flat.

One idea bouncing around is that if oil prices continue to rise the cost of shipping goods that have been manufactured by cheap labor in 2/3's world nations will become so exorbitant that it will lead to more localization, restoring manufacturing, agriculture to local settings once again. Hmmm.

By the way, I can't seen to activate that link that Jane sent to access documents. Any hints?

Best to all,

Norm Bendroth

[Jim Gorman]

Thanks for that, Norm.

 

I agree with the caution against the breathless enthusiasm in *The Flat Earth* with which Stackhouse seems to agree.  Max is way too patient with what he likes to call "Democratic Capitalism" and the invective language he uses (senile) against the World Council of Churches, LWF and WARC declaration on globalization is over the top.  He uses no such language regarding any form of capitalism, democratic or otherwise.  I don't have his book with me as I am leading a Jr. High Camp at the moment.  I'm working from memory, and as I remember, senile was one of the nice words.

 

Max made a presentation a week ago here at Lakeland College which was problematic to the ears of the Honduran and German clergy present (not to mention those of us left-wing ideologues from the US).

And, sadly, this train has left the station, without protections for first world workers who are hobbled by such things as safety, wages and health care.

 

Jim

--
www.uccwaukesha.org

[Gabe]

Herb,

1) By citing the two different construals of Islamic faith, I was
documenting my earlier point about how we have to do with Islamic
"theologies" in the plural.
2) Good, let's talk Christian theology (ies) too. How about Barth's
Letter to British Christians in 1941 when the Nazis were threatening
to invade the island and the flying bombs were doing their dirty
work?
"It is indeed true that the whole creation groans with us as the place
where Jesus Christ suffered and died...But it is also true that the
same creation is already consecrated through the resurrection of Jesus
Christ...the Kingly rule of Christ confronts and overrules with
sovereign dignity the principalities and powers and evil spirits of
this world...We should be slighting the resurrection of Jesus
Christ...if we did not , for Christ's sake, come to grips spiritedly
and resolutely with these evil spirits." [Isn't this your "one
sermon" :) ]
I take its application here to mean:
a) While, as another theologian, Reinhold Niebuhr, put it, we have
only a '"rough justice" in history, Mary's song is right that God does
bring the mighty from their seats and exalts those of low estate. I
believe we should follow this courageous resistance of the Iranians
with eyes of a hope that is made possible by the regency of Christ, in
history as well as at the End.
b) It also means that Christians must find some way also to "come to
grips...resolutely with these evil spirits" although I am not at all
clear how this is to be done by those outside of Iran, given the
international complexities of the day.
3) I hear Andy A , and Max as well, acknowledging the downside of
globalization in its economic dimension where western corporations'
role have a devestating effect on the poor around the world. However,
globalization is far, far more than this "economistic" interpretation
of it as in Thomas Friedman's point about our new "flat world" brought
about by the Internet and comparable technologies which make that kind
of globalization a given, one that has exposed the police state that
Iran is around the world and enabled the resisters to devise
strategies to contest their oppressors. On top of that, Max, in the 3
volumes he has edited, and the one he has written, has brought out the
role of culture and religion in globalization in ways much critical
commentary is now only beginning to realize.
Do you think the Synod resolution takes the latter into account? Even
with the Iran situation happening the very week the resolution is
being put forward? Incidentally, Max offered to consult with the
resolution committee before they produced it, but no one ever
contacted him. So much for UCC "inclusivity." Incidentally, Max is
listed on one UCC Internet identity site as one of a few UCCs that has
international stature. Not to mention that he is president of the
American Theological Society this year.

--Gabe

--Gabe

[Richard Floyd]

For anyone who is preaching on Second Corinthians 8, Paul's proto-stewardship sermon, this Sunday I have posted a blog about it on the CC site called “Christian Stewardship and the Cross.”  It is also posted on my personal blog, “Retired Pastor Ruminates”, at:  http://richardlfloyd.blogspot.com/

Rick

Richard Floyd

rfl...@berkshire.rr.com

On Jun 20, 2009, at 12:57 PM, Jean Easland wrote:

Wise Teacher: The top of the head and the gut often serve us well. I think there is a holy fear that is very hard to describe and may be subjective but maybe not many things that we think are unique to our own experience are not. Your sermon notes are always distillates of a life time of living and loving God and others; Jesus says over and again "don't be afraid" I think that is because we live in much more fear than we admit. Look how fear turns into mass panic and then violence-----good people get swept away beyond their control. The chasm between total depravity and total acceptance by God is too large to comprehend so we are driven to grace time after time. The whole Proclamation confronts our fear and denial. God is good, all the time God is good. The "no fear" culture lives a lie. Blessings on your summer enjoyment-------Roger

----- Original Message -----

From: herb.davis

To: Confessi...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 7:23 AM

Subject: RE: Sermon Note: June 28, Fourth Sunday after Pentecost, Mark 5:21-43

Dear Roger,  I hope others will respond to your question on fear.  Great question!  Just off the top of my head I think when we met the Holy Other, that which we cannot control or know but only love or dread we  should be afraid. The first word from the Holy Other seems to be "Fear Not".  I assume fear is a natural, wise response when we face the Lord of Lords. When we say we are not afraid of death are we saying?  We don't expect to met anyone or it doesn't matter?  Fear of the Lord, someone said, is the beginning of wisdom.  Fear Not is our Lords word to us.   Remember this is just off the top of my head. Peace, Herb

 

 

Herb the Preacher: Another wonderful job. I wonder if you or others can help me with the use of the  word fear in the Bible

[gail....@verizon.net]

Thank you Rick!

I'll be preaching on this text. I love it when these texts appear NOT during stewardship season, as I believe we should be preaching stewardship in and out of season... We are also commissioning our youth mission trip this Sunday - text is fitting for this as well.

Gail Miller

[Bct...@aol.com]

Rick,

 

Thank you, thank you!  I am preaching on this text this Sunday, even though others seem to be focusing on the passage from Mark!  I just read your blog entry and have printed it out, and you and I had a few of the same thoughts.  I think I am going to quote you, if you don't mind (with full attribution of course!). 

 

My sermon is entitled, "The Beginning of OCWM," and I am going to talk about how Paul had to teach the Christians in Corinth not only how to be a local church ("what's a church?" they had asked him, when he first showed up), but also how to be a church that cares about Christians and churches in far off lands ("where's Jerusalem?" these Gentile Christians asked him, like we ask today when something bad happens in a place we've never heard of).  "And you and who are going to carry our money to Jerusalem?  What's your cut?"  

 

Given how many things Paul had to teach the Christians in Corinth, when he was with them and in his ongoing correspondence with them, it's amazing that he also taught them the rudimentary principles of OCWM.  One would have thought he and they had enough on their hands learning how to be a local church --- operating out of houses and having lots of fights and not eating the Lord's Supper correctly, as Robinson points out in a chapter we are about to discuss.  But we cannot simply be local churches, even when we are struggling locally.  We can be taught to care about other Christians and other churches. 

 

If I've followed the trail in Acts and Paul's letters, it appears that Paul's having taken the offering to Jerusalem was one of the factors leading to his being taken into custody, and, ultimately, years later, to his death.  And do we even know that anyone in Jerusalem (as in the pillars of the church) wanted him to do this?  What were his motivations?  I will down-play this part, except for talking about his death. 

 

But you do have to wonder why he was doing this.  Was it just to teach the churches about the broader body of Christ, and, if so, why didn't he mention his body of Christ metaphor, given that he'd already written to the Christians in Corinth about it?  It's interesting that he used the passage that is also in his letter to the Philippians, which he may or may not have written yet.  Was it because this passage was part of a hymn, and the Corinthians might have been expected to know it?  Just food for thought... can't put this all in the sermon, but I am intrigued by snippets of hymns, early creeds, and early liturgical expressions on Paul's letters. 

 

I am going to take this as an opportunity to provide some education on OCWM, OGHS, Global Ministries, partner organizations, etc.  And I am going to tie it in some way to the General Synod.  

 

I am also going to take the opportunity to talk about how there are in fact still Christians in Jerusalem today --- Christians who could use our help too, especially in matters of peace and justice, and interfaith relations. 

 

Thanks again for sharing and for your challenging ideas.  Let me know your comments. 

 

Peace,

Jane

[herb.davis]

Sermon Note: July 5 Fifth Sunday after Pentecost, Mark 6:1-13

In Mark's Gospel there is always a mystery about the person and work of
Jesus. Those closes to him, the disciples never seem to fully understand
the mission of Jesus. The Gospel text tells us that family and friends in
the old neighborhood can't recognize who Jesus is. The one who masters of
wind and wave, the one who heals the bleeding woman and raises the dead girl
comes home. He preaches in his home town synagogue and all the folks can
remember is his boyhood, his teen age confusion, his siblings, his
carpentry. They can't believe this is the one, the Lord of Lords and King
of Kings.

The text maybe reminding us that just because we are friends of Jesus, were
baptized in his name, grew up singing his story does not insure that we
fully know him. It is possible that those who think they know him best do
not believe.

The task of the preacher in our tradition is to admit the danger of
familiarity without surrounding to it. There is a real possibility that we
who grew up with Jesus or have a born again experience can miss the real
Jesus. This is an opportunity to affirm what we confession that Jesus is an
example, that he is a great teacher, that he reaches out to the
marginalized, and then to urge the congregation to look at those aspect of
Jesus' life and ministry that make us uncomfortable, conceived by the Holy
Spirit, born of the virgin Mary, on the third day rose from the dead, takes
away the sins of the world, comes to judge the quick and the dead. Just as
Jesus' old neighbors could only be comfortable with the carpenter so we are
tempter to reduce Jesus to our level of comfort and not believe in the
fullness of Jesus Christ.

Mark also seems to be saying that our belief effect Jesus' ministry. Jesus
can't do much in the old neighborhood because of the lack of belief, "he
could do no deed of power." Nevertheless he does not leave without a sign
and "he laid his hands on a few sick people and cured them." I wonder if
sometimes when we look at the church as "few gray heads, or remember clergy
abuse or focus on all our warts or embellish our weakness" we might miss the
power of Jesus in our midst. Is our lack of faith in the Holy Catholic
Church an expression of our unbelief? Does it effects Jesus' ministry among
us?

I wonder how we respond to that question. I would hope we would not leave
of congregation wondering.

Any additions or corrections. Any liturgical resources? Peace, Herb

[Bct...@aol.com]

One clarification on something I wrote here. After I sent it, I remembered that when Paul met with the leaders of the Jerusalem church, they had asked him to "remember the poor" (Gal. 2:10).  That had been in the back of my mind as I was working on ideas for my sermon, but I overlooked it when I was responding to Rick.  I still think the question about Paul's motivations is an interesting one, even if it does not make its way into a sermon.

 

Jane

 

______________________________________________________________________________

[herb.davis]

Norm,  To get to Gabe's review and andy's paper go to Confessing Christ web page, click on Googegroups and then at the bottom of the page you will see files posted.  At least this is what I did.  Good to hear your voice. Herb

[JimLink]

To all:

I think Andy correctly points out the issues with calling the Accra
document a "Confession." It is a mostly joyless document, with little
free celebration of Jesus Christ as the living Head of the Church for
the World and the fulfillment of God's Covenant (To wit: "We believe
that God has made a covenant with all creation (Gen9.8-12) God has
brought into being an earthly community based on the vision of justice
and peace." par 20) and none of the subjects of its numerous "we
reject" s has imposed itself as doctrine in the church, even if we,
with all the rest are greedy, ruined slaves of Mammon. Let the church
confess Jesus Christ as Lord of Heaven and Earth, of souls and bodies,
banks and boardrooms, of all nations, including Iraq and Iran! Let the
church reject making joyless ideology the foundation of the church!

That said, in its concern for the poor and warnings about the
environment, the document is probably more on the side of the angels
than of the devils. And God bless the people of Iraq and Iran.

Jim Link

> > -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[stmatt...@aol.com]

Herb, Jim, Gabe. Willis, and Norm,

   Remember back to the early 90’s when Huntington came out with "The Clash of Civilizations". The Balkans were balkanized and Huntington saw something that Western intellectuals overlooked: cultural and religious identities will have much more to do with shaping our future. In fact, you might also remember that the CIA missed the Soviet collapse altogether because they weren’t paying attention to the deeper structures of common life.  Up until then poltical and economic reductionism was the prism through which the world was viewed. The Wall St. journal and The New Times were the authorties. While I disagree with Huntington’s ultimate conclusions, he made a strong case as a Niebuhrian, that we have to pay attention to religion and culture to get better read on our world. I think that the WCC and WARC shine a glaring spotlight on economic, poltical, and environmental injustices in our world, and we need to listen. But they can't see other things happening becaue they are still using an outdated political/economic lens. So Max’s proejct, I think, tries to help the church catch up with the times. He’s asking us to reclaim own rich heritage of Christian social analysis that others outside the church have validated.  Andy

-----Original Message-----
From: herb.davis <herb....@mindspring.com>
To: Confessi...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Thu, Jun 25, 2009 3:18 pm
Subject: RE: Iran and globalization

Norm,  To get to Gabe's review and andy's paper go to Confessing Christ web page, click on Googegroups and then at the bottom of the page you will see files posted.  At least this is what I did.  Good to hear your voice. Herb

-----Original Message-----
From: Confessing-Christ@googleg roups.com [mailto:Confessi...@googlegroups.com]On Behalf Of Norman Bendroth
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 11:51 AM
To: Confessi...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Iran and globalization

Hi folks,

I've been following the conversation (all topics) from afar, but thought I'd jump in once in awhile. With Andy, I think Globalization is a train that has left the station and isn't coming back real soon, but with Herb, think that breaks need to be put on re environmental degradation and workers' right. Tom Friedman has pulled back on some of his breathless enthusiasm found in The Earth is Flat.

One idea bouncing around is that if oil prices continue to rise the cost of shipping goods that have been manufactured by cheap labor in 2/3's world nations will become so exorbitant that it will lead to more localization, restoring manufacturing, agriculture to local settings once again. Hmmm.

By the way, I can't seen to activate that link that Jane sent to access documents. Any hints?

Best to all,

Norm Bendroth

On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 11:17 AM, herb.davis <herb....@mindspring.com> wrote:

Gabe, I didn't get the theologica l insight on Iran.  It seems that the guys

with the guns usually do better than the guys and gals without the guns
unless guns aren't allowed.  What impressed me was the uppity woman in the
protest.  They seemed powerful.  I would like some reason for the powerful
women in this society that does not seem to affirm women.    I think Obama
might be lucky again since Iran will be weakened after this internal
struggle that probably goes deeper than street protest.  Now if we can just
get the price of oil down then Iran will be in trouble.  I am not sure how
globalization and Iran relate, unless it is tweeter which is one part of
globalization.

Secondly your comment on globalization I assume was in relation to the
resolution at General Synod which is related to Andy's paper.  The move to
condemn Globalization in the World Alliance of Reformed Churches statement
should be considered by General Synod.  Andy's paper did not convince me
that the General Synod resolution should be defeated but it was a scholarly
and powerful statement.  I am still working on your reviews.  I am no expert
on Globalization, and I have not read Max's work, but I would probably in my
ignorance want some restrain on some aspects of Globalization.  Andy seems
to think that is not possible since Globalization is a given.  Where do you
stand on all this Gabe, just outside raising questions or do you have some

0Apassion about the issue.  My the way you can post three times and if you

have a divine revelation you can post four times.  Peace, Herb
-

---

Save energy, paper and money -- get the Green Toolbar.

[Richard Floyd]

Jane,

I'm glad you liked the blog, and of course you can quote from it.  There's hardly anything original in it, and I subscribe to the theory put forth by Will Willimon (I think) that the worst thing a Christian preacher can be is original.

It is good to bring up larger Stewardship and Mission issues away from the you know what.

What was Paul up to with this offering?  I'm thinking it was consistent with the glorious cruciform life that he had received as a a gift of God, and he was now doing daring things for Jesus.  “You know the grace of our Lord Jesus . . .”  He certainly wasn't just playing church.

I think if the offering and the trip led to his imprisonment and eventual death, no one would have understood the theological consistency of that more than Paul.

I like your enthusiasm for the larger church.  I confess I found it hard to maintain for thirty years.

On a personal note, I am now, because of disability, a recipient of money from UCC offerings (Veterans of the Cross/Christmas Fund paid my health insurance).  For all my theological lover's quarrel with the UCC over the decades, I testify to their care for me and my family in my disability, for which I am most grateful.

So ironies abound in God's world.  I used to joke that in case of schism, “I go with the Pension Boards.”  Alas, it is no longer a joke.

Blessings on your sermon.  I am preaching on this text and subject as well this Sunday, my first sermon in a year.

Rick

Richard Floyd

rfl...@berkshire.rr.com

[Thomas Dean]

Rick,

What a blessing  it was reading your ruminations on generosity and the cross all because Herb Davis started the reflections on Mark and Chris Anderson just put in contact with all these great conversations with old theological friends and mentors.

I've been out of the loop with what you have gone through and how God is still using you following your bicycle accident. 

I've been reading the book "Amish Grace", and I'm seeing a possible illustrative connection with generosity and grace and forgiveness and the cross.

Blessings on your return to the pulpit this Sunday.

Tom Dean, still in Unionville Connecticut after all these years

[Gabe]

Norm,

Agree with Herb. Good to "hear your voice" in this discussion.

Here is Friedman on June 17 on the bearing of a technologically
globalized "flat earth" to the Iranian uprising:

"What is fascinating to me is the degree to which in Iran today — and
in Lebanon — the more secular forces of moderation have used
technologies like Facebook, Flickr, Twitter, blogging and text-
messaging as their virtual mosque, as the place they can now gather,
mobilize, plan, inform and energize their supporters, outside the grip
of the state.

[He would add YouTube, CitizenTube and more today, and that 50,000 has
grown to hundreds of thousands]

For the first time, the moderates, who were always stranded between
authoritarian regimes that had all the powers of the state and
Islamists who had all the powers of the mosque, now have their own
place to come together and project power: the network. The Times
reported that Moussavi’s fan group on Facebook alone has grown to more
than 50,000 members. That’s surely more than any mosque could hold —
which is why the government is now trying to block these sites."

But, he did add a P.S., namely that they "need the guns" too.(Pace,
Herb) No talk of resurrection here, however. And as to what we can do--
my question earlier--he did have a suggestion the other day. Good
idea:

" Obama has already started some excellent energy-saving initiatives.
But we need more. Imposing an immediate "Freedom Tax" of $1 a gallon
on gasoline – with rebates to the poor and elderly – would be a triple
positive: It would stimulate more investment in renewable energy now;
it would stimulate more consumer demand for the energy-efficient
vehicles that the reborn General Motors and Chrysler are supposed to
make; and, it would reduce our oil imports in a way that would surely
affect the global price and weaken every petro-dictator.

Sure, it would take time to influence the regime, but, unlike words
alone, it will have an impact. I believe in "The First Law of Petro-
Politics," which stipulates that the price of oil and the pace of
freedom in petrolist states – states totally dependent on oil exports
to run their economies – operate in an inverse correlation. As the
price of oil goes down, the pace of freedom goes up because leaders
have to educate and unleash their people to innovate and trade. As the
price of oil goes up, the pace of freedom goes down because leaders
just have to stick a pipe in the ground to stay in power.

If we could bring down the price of oil, the Islamic Republic – which
has been buying off its people with subsidies and jobs for years –
would face keen pressures. The ayatollahs would either have to start
taking subsidies away from Iranians, which would only make the
turbaned-shahs more unpopular, or empower Iran's human talent – men
and women – and give them free access to the learning, science, trade
and collaboration with the rest of the world that would enable this
once great Persian civilization to thrive without oil....".


Thomas Friedman is a New York Times columnist.

On Jun 25, 11:50 am, Norman Bendroth <nbendr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> I've been following the conversation (all topics) from afar, but thought I'd
> jump in once in awhile. With Andy, I think Globalization is a train that has
> left the station and isn't coming back real soon, but with Herb, think that
> breaks need to be put on re environmental degradation and workers' right.

> Tom Friedman has pulled back on some of his breathless enthusiasm found in *The
> Earth is Flat*.

>
> One idea bouncing around is that if oil prices continue to rise the cost of
> shipping goods that have been manufactured by cheap labor in 2/3's world
> nations will become so exorbitant that it will lead to more localization,
> restoring manufacturing, agriculture to local settings once again. Hmmm.
>
> By the way, I can't seen to activate that link that Jane sent to access
> documents. Any hints?
>
> Best to all,
>
> Norm Bendroth
>

[Jean Easland]

Jim: I have read Max's work. He is one of the most important voices for the Christian Church to interface the world's new economic and social realities. Where is your academic expertise in economics and have you ever been in business? Max fills a critical void and can dialogue with world leaders about the consequences of the free market and its social constructs and deficiencies. I have a degree in economics and ran my own ranching operation for 17 years. I always marveled at the naive comments coming from those with theological training and considered most of them irrelevant to my world. You not only name called Max but labeled yourself, I don't see the grace or wisdom here. .............Blessings from the prairie where your hand shake is your bond, the women are strong and independent and the fear of the Lord is still real--------Roger

----- Original Message -----

From: Jim Gorman

To: Confessi...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 11:00 AM

Subject: Re: Iran and globalization

[Scott Paeth]

Roger,

In all honesty, how many people on this list have "academic expertise in economics" or "have ever been in business"? Max was my dissertation advisor, and I love him dearly and agree with a great deal (though not all!) that he has to say. But I don't think your critique of Jim is on target here.

And after all, if the question is what, theologically, we should think about the economy, then theological training is highly relevant and is, after all, precisely the training that Max also has.

Scott

[Gabe]

This powerful video can be seen on the Lede blog of the New York
Times. It is deeply moving, and will be especially for those who
participated in the civil rights struggles of the 1960s. It tells me
that "guns" did not have the last word then, nor do they have to be
the last word now.

--Gabe
...................................................................................................................................

Update | 10:33 a.m. A reader draws our attention to this video of Joan
Baez singing “We Shall Overcome,” posted on YouTube. She says “I’m
singing this song for the people of Iran,” at the start, and switches
to singing in Farsi at one stage.

Update | 10:28 a.m

[Norman Bendroth]

Friedman makes some helpful "boots on the ground" kind of suggestions. BTW, has anyone seen the new Review of Faith and International Affairs put out by Templeton and based upon their lectures? The usual suspects are in it: George Gallup, Max, David Rosen, George Weigel as well as Islamic scholars. What's their ideological spin?

Andy, could you share a few words on what the WCC and WRAC doesn't get about the new global paradigm? Since I already have too much I have/want to read, could you give a precis of Max's critique and where you agree or disagree? Seems to me that justice motifs of workers' rights and environmental concerns shouldn't be muted, but perhaps realists are saying they must be for the greater good.

Thanks,

Norm

PS--Is the conversation on the Trinity over? I preached a "doctrinal sermon" on the subject that Sunday, which my good wife thought was too "dicactic." I'd like to see what you folks think. I think we sell the laity short sometimes and give them mother's milk when they can handle beef steak (or at least some firm tofu).

PPS--Believe it or don't--the MBA Committee on Ministry has asked me to mentor a candidate whose ordination paper was very thin theologically so said person can try another shot at it. I was thinking of reading an introductory text together like Migliore's Faith Seeking Understanding or Gabe's Christian Story.  I was also thinking of putting together a collection of decent, succinct articles together on a host of themes for a variety of perspectives, e.g., authority of Scripture, person and work of Christ, role of the sacraments, authority of the pastor, etc., etc. Does anyone either know of such a collection or can they recommend individual articles? Baker Books had one for evangelicals a number of years ago edited, I believe, by Carl Henry, but it was pretty uneven.

[Jim Gorman]

I re-read my note regarding your charge that I "name called" Max.  The only thing I can find in my note is the word "senile" which you may have misunderstood as referring to Max.  I would never have done that.  What I was saying--inelegantly as I re-read it--is that Max uses the word "senile" to refer to one of the arguments on secularization being the result of the modern project.  I wasn't suggesting that Max is senile.  Max's use of the word is at the bottom of page 30 in Grace and Globilization.  I've tried to parse that paragraph out three times and still am not sure, actually, to what Max is referring, but that's a different issue.

I further agree that Max is one of the most important voices for the Christian church in the many arenas of public theology.  I just disagree with him on some points and I hope that it is OK to express that here.  But I don't think he's senile.  He currently suffers from Parkinson's disease, but he is far from senile and the disease doesn't interfere in anyway with his marvelously wicked smile which I have always found engaging in the 34 years I have known him.

Jim

--
www.uccwaukesha.org

[herb.davis]

Dear Gabe, I don't see the connection between the street protest in Iran
and Globalization. I maybe missing something. So I want to separate the
two. I just want to make a couple of comments on "guns" and results in
relationship to Iran and Civil rights and peace protest in USA.
1. I am not sure what happened in Iran but some wise folks seem to think
that the protest was an almost unplanned eruption of citizen frustration and
alienation to the Islamic state. I would think this is something like the
student sit-ins at lunch counters that started the Civil Rights movement.
It took a lot of organization, the ten year leadership of King and others,
the development of Civil Rights organizations SCLC, etc. We have to see
what happens in Iran, will leadership develop, will they be allowed to
organize? How will the state respond? Will the result be a more peaceful,
ordered society? Certainly we hope but the USA is not going to help it
along. George Bush is gone. So we can be hopeful but should not be
romantic.
2. Just a TV was critical in the Civil Rights movement, Tweeter and Face
book are powerful tools today. I am not sure I want to equate the Black
Church with TV or Tweeter with the Mosque. I am not sure Tweeter can
replace strong organizations and leadership. It looks like they can be
effective tools to confront the state.
3. I am not sure I buy into the progressive nature of history where freedom
and democracy are the end goal or the kingdom on earth will evolve. I
assume we will never find justice on earth but we should strive for as much
justice as possible and for me justice occurs not with the Supreme Court
acts or the Wise Elders of Iran but when there are opposing forces that can
negotiate and compromise. This may be senile but that is where I am. So I
worry in our society which is highly individualistic and anti organizations
where those opposing forces will be in our future struggles. Will it be
some virtual network?
4. Finally I wonder if there is a difference between protest against the
British rule or American Rule and the Islamic Republic. I was beaten and
tear gassed in protest in America but I always had a sense there was a limit
to those forces. I hope that is true in Iran. Peace, Herb

--

[Jean Easland]

Scott: Theological training must be all inclusive. Some kind of class on comparative economics would  be extremely relevant and help pastors to relate to a segment of their congregations. Stan Grenz recognized this and so he opened a  personal stock portfolio to gained some sense of free market dynamics. When the farm crisis hit hard in South Dakota in the eighties I asked  the regional seminary staff to make some effort to address the devastation of small towns and rural neighborhoods they couldn't find anyone willing to speak. Rev. Jesse Jackson came to Arlington S.D. and did a wonderful job talking about the cycle of economic devastation in the black community. He resonated well with the farmers present. Most of the local pastors did not have a clue. The greatest source of injustice in the world is tied directly to economic systems. S.D. lost one third of their farmers and small towns in a few years. The decline continues with over 500 bankruptcies every year. When the large multinationals take over the food supply you will see real devastation to "freedom". The Chinese now own and control a segment of our wheat production and are buying land especially around Kansas City. You can buy talopia in the local WalMart that is grown in China! Much of the shrimp you are eating is grown on human waist in Ecuador and Malaysia.You will see the food supply degenerate around the world. Obesity and depression are directly linked to diet and  food policy of governments. I personally hosted two Ambassadors to the USA from the Peoples Republic of China and food is the topic that is most important to the world. I helped negotiate  the first agreement ever between a foreign nation and an    American   State. Our nation is appallingly ignorant of the effects of globalization so when someone of Jim's stature discredits someone like Max as "senile" it  should not go unchallenged. There can be a terrible arrogance of knowledge that surrounds theological circles, unfortunately very few have hands on experience with economic systems. It is always easy to decry all the weaknesses and flaws from the pulpit with no practical way to impact the systems of the world. Condemnation is easy, constructive implication of change is hard.---------from the prairie, the hot winds have already done the damage to some wheat fields which are being baled for hay. No one is complaining just tending to the tedious and risky task of raising bread for the world-----------Roger

[Jean Easland]

Jim: I stand corrected.  Every seminary student should have to spend at least one month on a farm, the disconnect from reality that I hear from theo--types just drives me nuts! Every seminary student should also have to read the Communist Manifesto and the CED Reports of the American Government in the 60's which set out to destroy family farming in America. The cheap food policy designed to satisfy an urban consumerist America is continuing to drive people off the land------------but who really cares???  I too know about protest I finance the sending to a coffin containing the "American Farmer" to Washington DC for the "American Agriculture Movement". My neighbors came home afraid of our own government. The movement failed miserably. We had no support from any Church that I know of. There are many minorities in these United States my friend. Blessings  Roger

[Jim Gorman]

The "I stand corrected" statement is hardly adequate against what you were accusing me of, but be that as it may.

The degrees in economics trumping all arguments doesn't work for me.  Ever since Greenspan got so much so very wrong just 3 years ago, I don't listen quite as patiently to the degree festooned and experienced "experts".  

Also, Roger, your line of argument seems to tend against the Stackhouse/Friedman position.  How, exactly, do you suggest curbing the "urban consumerist America[n]" appetite for cheap food?  Isn't that the way of democratic capitalism?  This form of capitalism is only curbed by the will of the people however expressed (better in India than China, Max argues).  And the will of the people will, I dare say, never opt for more expensive food, automobiles, fuel, health care (in which everybody pays something so that everyone can be insured) even if the result is to save the family farm in the prairie.

I'm a democratic socialist (thus my ironic self-identification as a left-wing ideologue) but I have long ago given up hope that the demos would choose such an option in the US (or anymore in Europe as Max rightly argues).  So, I look for more realistic goals.  Just not as "realistic" as Max :-) 

Jim

[Jean Easland]

Jim: Check the definition of pure capitalism, we are far from it, I didn't make an argument for some ideal I only pointed out the disfunction of the system for segments of the culture/economy. You seem to have the ideal in your head. Roger

----- Original Message -----

From: Jim Gorman

To: Confessi...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Friday, June 26, 2009 4:25 PM

Subject: Re: Iran and globalization

[herb.davis]

Gabe, Andy,Jim, Norm, Roger, others,  I don't know if we can get back  to the globalization discuss. It is interesting.   For me Andy's paper, Gabe's review and the General Synod resolution is good data for discussion.   At present I lean toward supporting the resolution but am open to changing my mind. I would hope the resolution would engage us in study and debate.  I would hope Max would help Gen. Synod prepare some study guides. 

 

Two comments on Andy's paper:

1.  The first stage of globalization which we now call colonialism was also seen as Christian and a means of spreading the Christian Gospel.  Some felt so confident about  this new age that the 20th Century was named the Christian Century.  I wonder if we shouldn't be a little skeptical about this new stage of globalization.  I know its a new time, but sometimes it smells like the old time.  The Church is suppose to have a memory and our memory may lead us to moderate some of our certainty.  Does Max think we can shape Globalization?

 

2.  I remember Bishop Newbigin talking about going to India in the 30's when Britain controlled India with a few thousand troops because of their technology.  It took a Gandhi to figure out how to temper the great power that technology gave Britain.  Now I agree that the modern communication devices are much more democratic but I don't see that filtering down to the common laborer nor do I understand how the present economic model can be sustained in the face of global warming. 

 

These thoughts are from a retired pastor who has no competence in economics except that I get spend the winter in FL.  Just straighten me out with good arguments.   Peace, Herb

[Jean Easland]

Herb: You know plenty about the Kingdom of God which is way more stimulating than the dismal science. China may be the most interesting possibility for some new model, the high ideal of communism, an agrarian society (80% are still peasant farmers), tying to open itself to capitalist elite in the mix, ancient self righteousness and hybrid entrepreneurs, connected with western corporations: dynamite! The paper Willis put out by the ex CIA agent that predicted the fall of the USSR is the most seminal thing I have thought about for a long time. All things are interconnected and we all suffer from the plethora of specialists who have their own particular myopia. Willis is so right about trusting the Word of God to speak for itself and focusing on the spiritual disciplines. The enormity of interdisciplinary work today demands such intellectual and intensive reading and study I am not sure anyone can manage to make sense of too big of a slice of the modern pie. My dear friend and brother Stan Grenz pushed his brain to the outer limits and I sometime wonder if that contributed to his untimely death of an cerebral aneurysm. Some how you three theo-Masters have kept your sanity in days of the information blizzard. Theological reflection is of great value particularly in a day of techno/addiction. A blessing is a blessing is a blessing. Today the Wild Horse Ministries arrived and set up camp under two old cottonwood trees on the rodeo grounds. They spent the afternoon just sitting out in the 90 degree wind and loved every minuet of the light conversation mostly about horses and just plain old living in your skin and loving life and the Lord. They have 4 kids with them who stay in one trailer and Paul and Myra sleep in a small compartment in the front of the horse trailer. I offered them Holiday Inn Express room which they refused. They have discovered the joy of the Lord in the present which is sorely needed in the Christian western world. Joy and hope are possible the only expertise you need for that is FAITH! Wish you were here to hang out with us-----------------Roger on the prairie where if you don't take it like it comes you are going to be one miserable dude----------authentic, genuine, without pretense brothers and sisters in Christ-------------Oh thankyou Jesus for the peace that passes all human understanding!!!!

----- Original Message -----

From: herb.davis

To: Confessi...@googlegroups.com

[Gabe]

Herb,

Thanks for the feedback. Let me try to respond to your points,
especially the relation of Iran to globalization, in a couple of posts
along the way. In preparation for them, I re-read some of the authors
in the team Max assembled for the four volumes on "God and
Globalization,".among them names that would be known by participants
here--Moltmann, Kosuke Koyama, John Mbiti, David Tracy, Ron Cole-
Turner, Mary Stewart Van Leeuwen, Lamin Sanneh, Don Shriver--who take
up different aspects of globalization that go well beyond an
"economistic" understanding of it..

What is globalization? Of the many definitions, the one most pertinent
to our subject may be, simply put, our "compressed world." Those are
the words of one of the series's contributors, Roland Robertson, a
well-known interpreter of the phenomenon. He goes on to say, "The
notion of compression refers both to increasing sociocultural density
and to rapidly expanding consciousness. Globalization itself has been
a long-term process extending over many centuries, although, in recent
centuries it has with, increasingly rapidity assumed a particular,
discernible form." (Vol 1, 53-54)

I take that to mean that globalization today entails happenings in one
locale reverberating immediately far beyond that place, and even
around the world. In three senses: 1) consequences that come from it
2) awareness of those consequences globally and 3) the capacity of
those effected by it, and seeing it. to impact, in turn, those
circumstances.The new stage of compression can have consequences
either good or evil. In the latter case, the market forces that harm
the poor and the worker, the one's focused upon by the critics of
globalization. But globalization is "multidimensional" as Robertson
points out, much more than an "economistic" analysis allows for, as he
and others point out. A good example is how the new information
technologies have been a significant factor in the Iranian uprising.
While there is a similarity with the TV exposure of the Birmingham
fire hoses, the difference is that the street movement victims have
been given a way to expose the actions of a police state to the whole
world, one that does not depend on what the establishment does to
prevent conventional journalism . Further, these "social networking"
media enable the protesters to communicate immediately among
themselves, strategizing and organizing. The latter is a tip point of
"the organization" and "leadership" development you rightly mention as
crucial to effective social change. As well as right now. however,
this has been going one for 30 years, to a great extent, we are told,
under the impetus of Iranian women, which trajectory has contributed
to the present challenge to the status quo. Of course, much more has
to be done for "the mills of [God] grinds slowly but exceeding fine."

Another interesting could-be new development is the proposal of
Friedman to use the very globalizing market forces that have had a
negative effect on the poor , to good purposes, as in his proposal for
a "freedom tax" on gas that would help to undercut the Iranian
establishment's reliance on oil monies.

What of theology in all this?Max has attempted to deploy biblical
categories to understand the new globalization--thrones, powers and
principalities, authorities, etc. Perhaps Andy A can explain this,
given his research on the subject The series' point about the
importance of religion in the globalization process, missed by
simplistic criticism, is again apparent in Iran. Also a theology of
history is playing itself out, and, I believe, will more so in the
future, the bringing down of the mighty ("Mary's song") when power
structures over-reach. This has nothing to do with romantic
expectations about the Kingdom being built on earth, but rather the
"rough (not exact) justice" (Niebuhr) in history of the God of
history, the new heaven and new earth coming only at the End, and
every historical advance (someday a democratic Iran?) is also subject
to hubris and corruption, thereby the importance of checking and
balancing of power and a sober hope, not a utopian one, about what to
expect from reform.. And what of the resurrection about which you
speak so often and so movingly? How about in this issue too? As Christ
has risen from the dead, we have hope(sober) even in the direst of
times because the globalized world is under the regency of Christ, not
the mortally wounded powers and principalities. So John Milton, and
also Karl Barth.

Peace,

Gabe

[stmatt...@aol.com]

Hi Norm,

   It’s good to hear from you. Thanks for furthering the dialog.  I think it’s critically important to listen from our brothers and sisters on globalization in the Southern hemisphere. They raise enormous questions and shine a light on economical, political and ecological injustice. While i do not want to speak for Max, I think he takes issue with their Marxist analysis and lack of apprecaition to the full orbed relaity that globalization represnbts. I struggle with the either/or nature of the polemical confession handicaps further dialog. I would like to ask its authors (as other have ) a few questions as they have laid at our feet (those nations active in western, free market capitalism) just about every global ill. (1) Do leaders and structures of the nations in the Southern Hemisphere have any responsibility whatsoever for their nation’s poor economy and ecological degradation? &nbsp ; (2) Should the liberalization of markets be condemned outright or can they be transformed to more fully serve all? (3) Likewise, is the present form of globalization fundamentally wrong or can it be reformed in a way that serves the poor? (4) Is it possible for transnational corporations to better serve the interests of the poor? (5) Is confessional, anti-capitalist language the only way for the church to demonstrate its support for the poor? (6) Isn’t this approach ultimately counterproductive because it can potentially marginalize the church to a point where nobody in power takes it seriously anymore?

At this moment, seeing the bad and the good in globalization, I agree with  Reinhold Niebuhr’s critique of the polemical approach when he said “…perhaps this theology is constructed too much for the great crises of history. It can fight the devil if he shows both horns and cloven feet. But it refuses to make discriminating judgments about good and evil if the devil shows only one horn and half a cloven foot.” I think globalization is a one horn, half a cloven foot reality.  Andy

-----Original Message-----
From: Norman Bendroth <nben...@gmail.com>
To: Confessi...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, Jun 26, 2009 12:57 pm
Subject: Re: Iran and globalization

Friedman makes some helpful "boots on the ground" kind of suggestions. BTW, has anyone seen the new Review of Faith and International Affairs put out by Templeton and based upon their lectures? The usual suspects are in it: George Gallup, Max, David Rosen, George Weigel as well as Islamic scholars. What's their ideological spin?

Andy, could you share a20few words on what the WCC and WRAC doesn't get about the new global paradigm? Since I already have too much I have/want to read, could you give a precis of Max's critique and where you agree or disagree? Seems to me that justice motifs of workers' rights and environmental concerns shouldn't be muted, but perhaps realists are saying they must be for the greater good.

If we could bring down the price of oil, the Islamic Republi c – which

> > should be co nsidered by General Synod.  Andy's paper did not convince me

> > that the General Synod resolution should be defeated but it was a scholarly
> > and powerful statement.  I am still working on your reviews.  I am no
> > expert
> > on Globalization, and I have not read Max's work, but I would probably in
> > my
> > ignorance want some restrain on some aspects of Globalization.  Andy seems
> > to think that is not possible since Globalization is a given.  Where do you
> > stand on all this Gabe, just outside raising questions or do you have some
> > passion about the issue.  My the way you can post three times and if you
> > have a divine revelation you can post four times.  Peace, Herb
> > -

[herb.davis]

Dear Gabe, After reading Taylor's book, "The Secular Age" I am a little
cautious about celebrating the resurrection with each new secular age.
Surely resurrection claims the power of sin and death will not be
victorious, that the future is wide open, that the mighty shall be
overturned, the lowly exulted, the first shall be last, love never ends,
light shines in the darkness and the kingdom will come. But remember Taylor
blames Calvin and the unintended results the Reformed as the one of the
roots of the secular age. Now globalization maybe the great feast of
humanity's longing for justice and groaning of creation or it maybe a whiff
of the great banquet, I am not sure. I want to stick with the whiff which
does not prevent one from rejoicing the action of the Iran women struggling
for liberation. It also means I am not going to make promises to those
woman about the kingdom that I cannot keep.

Secondly your comments on the new communication devices which means we don't
have to relay on the establishment to broadcast the news also has a down
side. A side I worry about. Twitter surely helped empower the protester
and informed the world but Twitter will also help those in power, the state,
to keep an eye on the protestors, to broadcast their own message about how
British and Americans organized the protest. Twitter can be a means of good
or evil it depends on the context and the institutions in place. I am
deeply concerned at the rise of individual means of communication and
virtual communities and the decline of institutions that can protect human
freedom, such as the free press, churches, unions. It seems to be that the
state can identify, isolate, silence individuals easier than institutions,
so I am not as hopeful as you are about the Twitter revolution.

I always love your comments at our realization of the heavenly banquet as a
whiff, a light lunch, or a banquet. I am with the whiff, the smell is in
the air.

I hope I am still walking on shallow water or as you keep saying a realistic
visionary. I am also a conservative democrat. Peace, Herb

> --

[herb.davis]

Dear Andy and Rick, Great questions that we should bring to the table on globalization.  I am printing them to use in any discussion on this subject.  I don't think we are in a Barman situation,  but of course neither did the rest of the world in 1933.   I would hope that General Synod would use this resolution to begin a serious conversation on economics and globalization.  I would hope Max would have a real hand is preparing such a study booklet or if General Synod does not supply study material maybe Confession Christ could.  

 

I don't think globalization is one horn or foot but just part of our reality that we need to critic it in light of the Gospel.  I am sure that the UCC which celebrates diversity will want a full orb discussion. 

 

From what Gab says about Max's work we have an excellent basis for dialogue with the corporations, which is both Rick and Andy's concern.

 

  Peace, Herb 

 

[Jean Easland]

Herb: I share your reservations. Recent studies show that American children
have lost about 40% of their vocabulary and writing skills do to so much use
of new "communication" possibilities. It has also been show that high tech
kids have less relational skills and prefer the isolated individualism of
the computer screen or other hand held devices. I think the potential for
manipulation of new technology by monolithic governments like China and
maybe Iran is huge. Remember that much of their brain trust is made up of
elite intelligentsia that are "educated" in American universities. What may
look like liberation by one segment of a population can be bondage to
another. A new dialectic of "truth" is easily manufactured by some new
ruling power. Iran and North Korea are the most obvious examples. Both the
left and the right in America play this game of oversimplification to sell
their agenda. You have read my skepticism of both the left and the right in
American Christianity. Globalization is creating a new elite in the world
all at the expense of the little people as usual. Blessings from the land of
hay and grass---------Roger

[Jim Gorman]

I have read Max's book.  I have also read one of his newer papers and then another one which he read while we read along at Lakeland College two weeks ago.  I'm not sure that it is the one that was uploaded to the CC website as I haven't had an opportunity to download that and make comparisons.

 

But given what I have, here are my questions:

 

I have a major question regarding Max's notion that his particular form of theology (Christian/Protestant) ought to have a place in the ongoing globalization conversation.  He notes that he has three "worries" and I share them (especially the first of the three).

The first reason arises from what I see as the confused arguments and international policies of the George W Bush administration, which was more identified with the Christian faith than most recent US administrations.  Those policies conveyed to many around the world that globalization is little more ethan an American agenda guiding imperialistic and neo-colonial policies while hiding raw interst with a thin veneer of piety.  Those policies also suggested to many that Christianity is not only transformative but fundamentally agressive.

 Exactly.

 

The other two "worries" are worth discussing but allow me to focus on just this one at the moment.

 

Max is in favor of the insertion of a "normative Christian perspective" into the globalization discussion.  But, I don't really get a clue as to what that might be.  There are hints, of course.  Faith, as he defines is, "must be deep" (whatever that might mean) and must be "universalistic and persuasive."  I think that "universalistic" gets close to something worth discussing (Bush's version of faith may not be, neither may be the Islamic fundamentalistic version of faith).

 

He defines faith thus, "confidence in a comprehensive worldview or metaphysical-moral vision that is accepted as binding on believers because it is held to be, in itself, basically true and just."  And further:

This normative vision implies that something real and important transcends the world as it is and offers a vision of the world as it ought to be or ultimately shall be.  I am persuaded that the Christian faith is the most valid faith available to humanity, but I recognize that others have views and that we have to encounter them in a globalizing world and may gain from a sympathetic encounter.

How is it that W's faith does not conform to the above?  Is it not "universalistic" enough?  On what grounds?  Certainly W himself thinks it is.  So does his followers on the religious right.

 

Jim

--
www.uccwaukesha.org

[Gabe]

Dear Herb,

This is my last post for about a week, as we are off to visit Dot's
older brother and sister. But just before Masterpiece Theater, I'll
squeeze in a cuople of comments.

I am a foretaster, not a whiffer on the scale you nicely mention.
Lord, you tilt more to the realist side of this thing than I
(influenced much by Niebuhr, as you know) do. How could that be when
you preached at me for 15 years that "Jesus is risen, walk on water!"

What has happened as the Iranian establishment has become more savvy
about shutting down the uprising's information technology, is that
hackers from around the world sympathetic to the protesters, are
hacking in to the Iranian regime as it tries to shut down their
exposure of what is happening on Facebook, Citizenbook, YouTube...and
twittering,with some success to date.

As to the somber notes in that marvelous book by Charles Taylor, we
have to hold it in tension with Bonhoeffer's wise warnings to us about
"servility before fact."

You are surely right about the importance of institutions. I don't see
this as an either-or, one growing out of the other, either way.

For me, Andrew Sullivan's word on his Atlantic magazine blog, says it
as well as anything, and , I believe he says it as a believing
Christian who looks to the resurrection :KNOW HOPE.
--Gabe

[Willis E. Elliott]

Roger

 

While I have no "ideas," I do have a few thoughts.

1

By what Niebuhr called "the beneficent dissolutions of history," repressors get repressed.  The Iranian youth-revolt continues to simmer, just under the boiling point of violence.

2

FDR believed he could smile anybody into friendliness.  Obama believes he can think anybody onto "common ground."  Both were both right and wrong.  We pray  that Obama is more right than wrong.

3

I'm glad for your good experiences of the Baha'is!  In my experience, too, a gentle & open folk.  /  Sufism softens Islam's hard prose into dance & poetry (& has been digestible into Islam), but Baha'ism is a radical universalization of Islam (& is harshly persecuted).  I confronted an Iranian about the killing of Baha'is in Iran: "how do you [a graduate of an American university] explain it?"  Said he, "They are infidels."  Even to moderate Muslims, 99% of the American population is infidel.  I pray for Obama & "common ground," but also that we should stand our ground for the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

4

Dimly I remember a '60s song, "Something is happening, but you don't know what it is, do you, Mr. Jones?"  Well, it turned out to be not all bad.  What's happening now, since the world financial collapse last year, is beginning to turn out not all bad.  Youth want, need, & to some extent will get (I believe, short of the full-come kingdom of God) a better world.

5

After supper tonight, a very wealthy centenarian (whose family's architectural benevolences are visible in our city), smiled at me as her middle-aged attendant asked me a question (they were at my Monday lecture): "What should I say when someone says to me, 'I don't believe the Bible'?"  I suggested that she might begin with, "What is the Bible about?"  The ensuing conversation might lead to the question where one should center one's life, perhaps on the model of the Bible's theocentricity & it's message that "God is Love."  I referred to the recent papal encyclical, "Charitas in Veritate" ("Love in Truth"), which wisely suggests that (in private & public life [including political & economic structures]) two things can't work: love without truth, &  truth without love.

6

Ours is a time of global repercussive catastrophes, potentially a good time for the gospel: "Christianity was founded on catastrophe" (Cornel West).  At the minimum, laughter at the old virtues & values has faded away.

 

Grace and peace--

Willis

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Jean Easland

To: Confessi...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2009 9:50 PM

Subject: Re: Iran

Willis: Man of mind and spirit. I agree that the world has changed dramatically do to techno/communication and will never be the same. Authoritarian governments like Iran and China have got to be in a panic as to how they can control rapid information dissemination. We have a generation that eats sleeps and drinks the "freedom" of media communication. Obama is in his elements here he turned the establishment on its head with media smart strategy. Don't worry he is not just sitting around thinking of the next sound bite, he has the ear of Islamic youth across the world. My prayer is that less wise political operatives will NOT mess it up. We must pray for Bahi believers who are non-violent and reformist to Islam. They could be a wonderful middle ground for peace. Jean and I attended Bahi meeting when we lived in Baltimore Md. back in the late 60s in one of our other lives. I went to the Bahi temple in Chicago to check it out. We invited international Bahi youth who came to Pierre S.D. to our church and took them out on the river boating. We had a special breakfast for them in the church.  I had a day of dialogue with them, wonderful young people. Serious youth around the world are seeking the truth. The Church needs to organize our best young communicators to use media to dialogue with youth around the world HOWEVER they NEED the wise old gray heads like yours and other on CCer's. How would we get an organized effort going? We spend plenty of time talking to eachother why not find ways to connect with these youth around the world?  Talk about the Spirit flowing Willis, what an opportunity! This would be a great opportunity for CC to turn the page and get out of itself more ????  Got any ideas Willis????    Roger  

----- Original Message -----

From: Willis E. Elliott

To: Confessi...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2009 5:19 PM

Subject: Re: Iran

An appropriate encouragement, Gabe.

 

At least my first response is to "Attach" my current online column on the subject.  In section 4, I mention the biblical element (+ the Enliightenment = "the West"), with prophet/priest/king.  My perspective is the evolution of government, which from below is what from above is a revelation from God.  Eschatologically, of course, "when all else fails," humanity will try "the kingdom of God."

 

A great new fact against tyranny: God, who sees all, is technologically decreasing tyrannies' ability to suppress seeing.  E.g., Iranian youth are Twittering, & the government can't block it.

 

Grace and peace--

Willis