Department of Basic Education, chooses Delphi over Java, flawed in several aspects (We have 732 signatures, 268 to go)

[Alen Ribic]

Dear Javanistas,

Last Tuesday, I met in person with Deputy Minister Enver Surty regarding the implementation plans to standardise to Delphi over Java with respect to Basic Education. A number of people and myself, from both the industry and academic setting, have studied the document entitled "IMPLEMENTATION PLAN FOR STANDARDISING PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE FOR INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY FOR 2015" [1]. This document was put forward by the Department of Basic Education in response to the criticism they received in the media. Study of the document shows that the rationale behind the standardisation to Delphi is flawed in several aspects.

We are calling for the National Department of Education to action a re-evaluation process that would see a number of inaccuracies and omissions with respect to Java, the programming language and technology, be addressed in the revised document. We believe that these inaccuracies and omissions have had a significant effect on the final proposal which supports Delphi as the programming language of choice.

You can support this "call to action" by signing the below petition and spreading the word.
As of this writing, 732 signatures have been received in 5 days from all corners of South Africa and we'd like to reach our goal of 1000 as soon as possible in order to promptly communicate back to DBE.

https://www.change.org/petitions/re-evaluate-the-implementation-plan-for-standardising-to-delphi-over-java

Regards,
-Alen Ribic

[1] https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2146210/IT%20Tools%20Stadardisation%20Implementation%20Plan.pdf

[Johan Steyn]

This feels surreal - almost like reading a report on The Onion...

I really cannot fathom that anyone would consider Delphi over Java in this day and age. If it were Python over Java, or (even better) Scala over Java then I could understand, somewhat. But Delphi..?

Thanks for pointing this out Alen. I have signed and I hope they listen.

Johan.

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[Brian Silberbauer]

The 90s called, they want their programming language back.

--
Brian Silberbauer Software Consulting

 +27 (0)83 566 2705
 http://www.gamatam.com/

jobs site: http://jobs.gamatam.com/

[Søren Aalto]

Also it seems to me -- that it would be nice to introduce students to web-as-platform 

paradigms for programming...but I find that even universities struggle with this.

Soren Aalto

Director: ITSS

Durban University of Technology | http://www.dut.ac.za/

[Andrew van der Westhuizen]

I have a love / hate relationship with Java and feel that there really are better languages to teach in. Just not Delphi! Petition signed.

Warm regards,

Andrew van der Westhuizen (B.Sc, MBA)

Senior Analyst Programmer, Stellenbosch University

www.avanderw.co.za | +27 76 334 7342

[Brian Silberbauer]

There is a lot happening in the javascript world at the moment: javascript in the backend with node.js, modern gui concepts with AngularJS, lots of json being used in persistence/services, its easily accessible and the tools are maturing nicely (webstorm from JetBrains is free for students and teachers). 

Any thoughts?

[Andrew van der Westhuizen]

Try teach OO in javascript without something like typescript

Warm regards,

Andrew van der Westhuizen (B.Sc, MBA)

Senior Analyst Programmer, Stellenbosch University

www.avanderw.co.za | +27 76 334 7342

[Carl Woermann]

Hi Brian ... with regards to  the javascript world - I have spent the last year with AngularJS - / node - and I can say that it has changed the way I look at UI's -- I am pretty impressed ! - Nonetheless when wondering what to recommend to young folk who want to lean programming (i get these questions sometimes - even from my own son), I can't imagine javascript as a solid starting point..  Its like passing someone a chainsaw to make fruit-salad..

[Johan Steyn]

About programming languages in education...

I have a 9-year old son whom I will start teaching programming gradually. I was thinking of starting him off on Python with is being so much simpler than most languages, and especially since he can take small steps with the interactive interpreter to do familiar stuff like sums and then onto programmatic constructs like conditionals and loops. 

But I would prefer to stay in the Java world if possible - it is, after all, the platform that I have built my career upon...

I started learning Scala recently, and it is blowing my mind (in a good way). Really amazing - and it exploits the crown jewel of the Java platform: the JVM. Finally I will be able to move away from Java the programming language (towards which I am lukewarm, at best) to a language that combines features of dynamic languages like Python and Ruby (it even has an interactive interpreter too) and merges the two paradigms of Object Orientation and Functional programming into a single language - all while running on the JVM and being able to make direct calls to existing Java libraries.

And for my son, I will probably start him off on the Scala-based Kojo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kojo_(programming_language))

BTW. Scala was invented by the highly respected Martin Odersky - who wrote the current Java compiler (javac) and implemented some Java 5 language features. He studied under Professor Wirth, the inventor of Pascal which led to Object Pascal used in Delphi - to make my reply relevant to the discussion at hand... :)

[Gerrit Brink]

I would like to second this idea. It could in fact broaden the horizons slightly, personally I believe the concepts involved in JavaScript surpasses any other language by miles and with the built in databases provided by all modern browsers this could simplify one of  the  “complexities” mentioned in the JAVA appeal document. Not to mention the fact that it doesn’t matter which language you specialize in, if you are going to write a web based front end it is probably going to be in HTML + some JS.

 

This would then make the subject available to non back end devs as well.

I personally think this is a very good idea, due to similar fundamentals it could teach with some added benefits.

[Alen Ribic]

I'll attempt to briefly entertain the support for JavaScript as a starting point. 

It is worth noting that a popular text and an introductory CS/EE course offered by MIT named "Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs" (SICP) [1] uses Scheme [2], a dialect of the Lisp programming language, to explain core computer science concepts.

One might ask why do this? For one, in Scheme, as defined in the R5RS Scheme standard, there are only 23 syntactic constructs. It takes no more than 15 minutes to teach the language to learners who have no prior knowledge in programming.

Learners get immediate gratitude and for the rest of the course they dedicate to learning the computer science fundamental concepts which is the essence of the course in the first place.

I bring this to attention as the key design principles [3] within JavaScript are taken from the Scheme and Self programming languages (minus the JavaScript bad parts [4] of course) and hence I believe JavaScript could very well be a language that could be used to effectively teach the core elements [5] of programming and offer learners the immediate gratitude (i.e. learning the language itself interactively by firing up a REPL or a browser).

-Alen

[1] The text is available for free online and I highly recommend it - http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/ 

[2] Scheme programming language - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scheme_(programming_language)

[3] JavaScript design principals (in ECMAScript Language Overview document) - phttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JavaScript#cite_note-6

[4] "JavaScript: The Good Parts" book explains the bad parts of the language pretty well - http://www.amazon.com/JavaScript-Good-Parts-Douglas-Crockford/dp/0596517742

[5] As defined well in the SICP [1] text, the three key elements of programming are primitive expressions, means of combination and means of abstraction.

[Dr Heinz M. Kabutz]

The problem is the teachers who used to teach Turbo Pascal and have simply not made the cognitive switch to a more modern language and paradigm.  I remember seeing teaching material using Java, but with a Pascal flavour.  It was horrible.  If the teachers can't "get" Java, then just forget about something as abstract as Scheme.

Regards

Heinz
-- 
Dr Heinz M. Kabutz (PhD CompSci)
Author of "The Java(tm) Specialists' Newsletter"
Oracle Java Champion 2005-2013
JavaOne Rock Star Speaker 2012
http://www.javaspecialists.eu
Tel: +30 69 75 595 262
Skype: kabutz

[Evan Summers]

i agree that the "immediate gratitude" is critically important for learners

javascript is essentially very simple language - and used to render things things in the browser immediately - and indeed one could have browser-based editor with "click here to run your code" which would be easy for teachers to get learners up and running via just a URL - like that knockout tutorial (http://learn.knockoutjs.com/)

recently i was playing with the HTML5 canvas to draw diagrams (sequence diagrams) and it took right back to the excitement of my first attempts at programming, wanting to draw lines and what not on the screen - and i felt like a wowed teenager again ;)

ps. anyone out there going through PCI compliance, let's network ! I recently did a simplistic dual control implementation which i can share

best
e

[Glen Verran]

Hi folks,

 

Being objective on this, what programming language would one recommend to a youngster at school to facilitate their interest in software development?  One that is easy to learn, one that facilitates the understanding of object orientated programming, but one very important point - one that keeps their feet on the ground, open-minded, stimulates an appetite for learning as well as gets them excited and ignites a passion as a career in software development so that when they fill in those university applications, that they'd choose either IT, Computer Science, Elec Eng, etc as a career and not just a job!

 

We need more competent, go-getter, passionate and confident software developers with the right attitude and aptitude.  So difficult to find those nowadays. :)  We can only hope that the language they get introduced to at school level as their first, will ignite that what I mentioned above.

 

Regards

 

~Glen

---

From: ctjug...@googlegroups.com [mailto:ctjug...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Carl Woermann
Sent: 08 November 2013 10:53 AM
To: ctjug...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [CTJUG Forum] Department of Basic Education, chooses Delphi over Java, flawed in several aspects (We have 732 signatures, 268 to go)

[Gerrit Brink]

@ Evan

If you are playing around with canvas element for charting you should also check out the HTML 5 SVG spec and the Apache Batik project.

 

From: ctjug...@googlegroups.com [mailto:ctjug...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Evan Summers
Sent: 08 November 2013 11:54 AM
To: ctjug...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [CTJUG Forum] Department of Basic Education, chooses Delphi over Java, flawed in several aspects (We have 732 signatures, 268 to go)

 

 

i agree that the "immediate gratitude" is critically important for learners

[Hendré Louw]

​​I like to approach the problem from it's outcome perspective. How many of these kids, that are interested in what we know today as programming, will actually be writing code when the finish school or MIT for that matter? The world of the analyst and programmer are converging and we are moving into the visual direct manipulation era. Things are going to be visual and so will many aspects of coding. Java is a business language. Will business IDEs not gravitate more towards a touch based process editors with drag and drop components?

Kids have cellphones and know apps. If you want to get kids programming, put their own app on their mobile phone. Put their own app on the friend's mobile phone. Put their own app on their kitchen fright door. Put their own app on their bath room mirror. Kids will be coding in game environments with visual object manipulation that publishes their apps to a community app store. The concepts of programming will be packaged in a gamification enabled environment where you grow and learn at your own pace with complexity increasing with each level. Level 1: Bicycles have wheels. Level2: If Else Level20: Scala etc.

Hendre

On 8 November 2013 11:44, Alen Ribic <alen....@gmail.com> wrote:

--

Hendré

[Alen Ribic]

You raise a very important point Heinz. Counterintuitive as it might seem, this has been one of the supporting factors raised by DBE to conclude the standardisation to Delphi. This perhaps might be a good sign of resistance to change.

At the end of the day, I'm sure we all agree that we need to move forward. 

If our teachers need retraining, let's retrain them and help them make the cognitive switch. We equally need good syllabus that are written to suit the relevant paradigm(s) and aligned with the programming language of choice.

-Alen

[Fritz Meissner]

I won't be signing this. The principles people have raised here really support an "anything but Java" view. 

From a Facebook post by one of UCT's a/profs when the news first broke:

"it is a pity that Delphi costs a lot of money (although i see that they do academic deals). besides this, it is possible to argue for Delphi (instead of Java), for the following reasons:

- using OSS purely for cost savings has never been and is not the intention of OSS, and this has been discussed over and over again in open source communities ...

- a Pascal-based language is much better as a teaching language, because it is simpler to learn and understand. remember that uct-cs also ditched Java as a first language!

- Delphi as a commercial product will come with some level of support - high schools do not have the expertise to suppose OSS - the poor performance of tuxLabs in the western cape should teach us something about not using OSS in schools without a supporting infrastructure 

- the reality is most kids use Windows, because it comes on the computers they are given. Delphi is arguably better to create Windows apps

- first year students who learn Delphi are in my experience much more excited about programming

- kids coming out of high school need excitement if they want to become young entrepreneurs. Delphi as a RAD also gives them the ability to quickly create apps (and yes it does Android apps too)

- do we want high school graduates to become enterprise developers? i think they first need some level of tertiary training, and they can learn java then. high school should really be about "basic education".

for all these reasons related to pedagogy, OSS philosophy and training for productivity, i think i would have come to the same decision to teach Delphi in high school, although with more lead time"

[Etienne Pretorius]

Strange how all this might be valid reasons but the core benefit of teaching Java is to equip the students for the working environment, none of which is mentioned here.

BTW, I did Delphi at UNISA... Hated it.

Kind Regards,

Etienne Pretorius

[Evan Summers]

Sounds like he was a consultant to the Dept of Education, and advocated the choice of Delphi ?

Support infrastructure, and educator skills, is critical. Support for educators, basically. Which is the departments' responsibility, and they want to do what is easiest for themselves, not what is the best for the learner, or IT vocation.

I would say the reality is most kids use Android, which is linux and java. And most kids use web apps.

best
e

[Alen Ribic]

Fritz, please do elaborate on what you mean by ``The principles people have raised here really support an "Anything but Java" view.``.

Firstly, the purpose of the petition I began is clearly stated in the beginning of this thread.

"We are calling for the National Department of Education to action a re-evaluation process that would see a number of inaccuracies and omissions with respect to Java, the programming language and technology, be addressed in the revised document. We believe that these inaccuracies and omissions have had a significant effect on the final proposal which supports Delphi as the programming language of choice."

This does not under any circumstances speak to the "Anything but Java" view. Quite the contrary. 

Secondly, this thread has taken on a bit of discussion where the community members have voiced some opinions, thoughts and ideas and not necessarily any concrete principals that support some "Anything but Java" views.

Hope this clears things up a bit.

-Alen

[Dr Heinz M. Kabutz]

Agree with Alen.  My problem with Delphi is not because I am a Java fanboy, but just that it is a patently terrible idea.

I asked my nephew where he gets Delphi from.  The website he sent me had a bunch of pirated copies of Delphi.  Is that what we want to teach our youngsters?

[Hendré Louw]

Fritz, 

1.

Java is and owned by Oracle. I do not see the lack of commercial support here or the issue with the zero rand entry free. Oracle Java is slightly be more in touch and connected to reality than Depli.

2.

South Africa is part of the BRICS region that include Brasil, a major supporter of open source and implementer of Java at government level.

3.

Java and all its tools are fully supported on Windows.

4.

Application like Alice and Greenfoot are already used in education to teach Java and they run on Windows.

5.

Refer to my earlier post about teaching programming using a gaming environment and apply your national Delpi licence costs towards that.

6.

I just makes more sense going into a Java dominated economy with a Java schooling than with a Dephi schooling? 

Hendre

Hendré

[Fritz Meissner]

I'm not saying the petition says, "anything but Java", I'm saying I won't sign it because *I* think the dept shouldn't be teaching Java. 

I did overstep with my summary though, there have been several points that disagreed with my view. My take on each:

Age of the language - really, this is about popularity, Java is about the same age. Java is popular now in the working world because of marketing and institutional inertia, and ideas of enterprise-readiness. None of these apply to schools.

Schools must teach OOP - It's too early for people to be thinking about OO when you're writing hello world. A bunch of languages can be used for OO later on that aren't Java, including Delphi

Schools must prepare kids for programming jobs - could the industry handle hordes of 18 year olds with 3 years of high school computer studies? The enthusiasts, maybe, but for them the language taught is irrelevant, they can learn what they need from a book. And the sooner you learn that a programming career is longer than the useful lifespan of a single language, the better

Mobile apps and webapps are what teens use - If we're talking webapps Delphi might not be my first choice but neither would JSP. And apparently Delphi can do Android

Fritz

[Dr Heinz M. Kabutz]

Here is the new Delphi IDE: http://www.embarcadero.com/products/delphi

It does look nice that you can write code for iOS and Android without changing a line of code.

Oh shucks, the Delphi XE5 Architect version costs R64000 . . . . . . .

I don't think schools need to teach OOP - rather teach them functional programming.

Regards

Heinz
-- 
Dr Heinz M. Kabutz (PhD CompSci)
Author of "The Java(tm) Specialists' Newsletter"
Oracle Java Champion 2005-2013
JavaOne Rock Star Speaker 2012
http://www.javaspecialists.eu
Tel: +30 69 75 595 262
Skype: kabutz

[Grant]

It seems Python was voted the best first language to learn 

http://www.itworld.com/application-management/401419/python-squeezes-out-javascript-c-best-starter-programming-language

... his survey-data is interesting. But I also believe Python is the language to use when teaching people / kids to program.