To Java or not to Java?
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Quinton Curry
Jun 8, 2017, 8:39:26 AM6/8/17
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Hi All,
Not sure how active this group is these days but if anyone is listening maybe you can share some insight.
So I'm a developer in my mid 40's - been in software development for some 16 years and stuck in an ageing technology environment. I'm looking to the next 20 years and how I will keep myself relevant.
I got certification as an entry level Java programmer way back in 2001 (Java 1.4 at that time) when there were no jobs for java guys around. To survive I had to go another route and got sucked into web development with the Progress platform (Progress 4GL, WebSpeed and Progress RDMS and the usual front end stuff HTML, CSS, Javascript, etc). That has been my primary tool set all these years and along the way I've been able to use a little bit of Java, Python, PHP to help create a solution where it was not feasible to do with Progress - but this has been few and far between. Hindsight is a bummer and if I had just stuck with Java from the beginning I would be a very happy man today.
So I'm looking at what it would take to re-invent myself as a Java developer and how long it would take to reach at least my current salary bracket again. And how big a cut in salary I would initially have to take in starting over as a Java developer. With this in mind I have the following questions:
- What is the average salary for entry level Java developer?
- What are the prospects like for a 44 year old developer looking for a job in a technology he doesn't have much experience in?
- How long would it take to get to a salary of say R45k gross per month?
- What is a reputable institution these days to do a thorough course in getting certified as a Java developer in up to date versions/frameworks etc that is currently used in the market place?
In 2001 I did the Java programmer course at VZAP (Van Zyl & Pritchard) programming school which was very comprehensive. Infact the first part of the course concentrated purely on Object Oriented Analysis and Design and theoretical stuff which I think has really helped me in grasping the basics of other technologies along the way like Javascript and Python, etc. So ideally I would like to find a place that goes to the same depth of teaching.
Appreciate any advice you can give.
Regards
Quinton
Prakash Harri
Jun 8, 2017, 9:49:50 AM6/8/17
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Hi Quinton and anyone that has Java/ Android or IOS skills.
Send me your CV and current salary please, I work at a corporate that needs developers.
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Ewald Horn
Jun 8, 2017, 9:54:24 AM6/8/17
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Is that for the Old and Mouldy Prakash? :P
Bruce Stewart
Jun 15, 2017, 6:55:46 PM6/15/17
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Hi Quinton
The good news is that nowadays there is a growing recognition of the fact that people with good programming skills are hard to find, and that the language you happen to be familiar with today is not as relevant as your ability to solve problems. I have noticed this trend as an interviewer and an interviewee. For example, your current knowledge of a specific Java package or library that you have never needed to work with is not as important as the extent to which you have mastered the one's that you do have experience with.
Regards,
Bruce
PS: Please drop me a personal email with your CV - we're looking for a Java developer and we might very well be able to absorb the cost of your learning on the job.
Munaf Sheikh
Jun 16, 2017, 6:12:06 AM6/16/17
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What is the average salary for entry level Java developer?
-- about 12k for a junior developer
- What are the prospects like for a 44 year old developer looking for a job in a technology he doesn't have much experience in?
-- good, with your java certification.
- How long would it take to get to a salary of say R45k gross per month?
-- that's senior java territory. So however long it takes to get to that mindset.
- What is a reputable institution these days to do a thorough course in getting certified as a Java developer in up to date versions/frameworks etc that is currently used in the market place?
-- oracle
On Fri, 16 Jun 2017, 00:55 Bruce Stewart <bandi....@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi QuintonThe good news is that nowadays there is a growing recognition of the fact that people with good programming skills are hard to find, and that the language you happen to be familiar with today is not as relevant as your ability to solve problems. I have noticed this trend as an interviewer and an interviewee. For example, your current knowledge of a specific Java package or library that you have never needed to work with is not as important as the extent to which you have mastered the one's that you do have experience with.Regards,BrucePS: Please drop me a personal email with your CV - we're looking for a Java developer and we might very well be able to absorb the cost of your learning on the job.
On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 2:39 PM, Quinton Curry <quinto...@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi All,Not sure how active this group is these days but if anyone is listening maybe you can share some insight.So I'm a developer in my mid 40's - been in software development for some 16 years and stuck in an ageing technology environment. I'm looking to the next 20 years and how I will keep myself relevant.I got certification as an entry level Java programmer way back in 2001 (Java 1.4 at that time) when there were no jobs for java guys around. To survive I had to go another route and got sucked into web development with the Progress platform (Progress 4GL, WebSpeed and Progress RDMS and the usual front end stuff HTML, CSS, Javascript, etc). That has been my primary tool set all these years and along the way I've been able to use a little bit of Java, Python, PHP to help create a solution where it was not feasible to do with Progress - but this has been few and far between. Hindsight is a bummer and if I had just stuck with Java from the beginning I would be a very happy man today.So I'm looking at what it would take to re-invent myself as a Java developer and how long it would take to reach at least my current salary bracket again. And how big a cut in salary I would initially have to take in starting over as a Java developer. With this in mind I have the following questions:- What is the average salary for entry level Java developer?- What are the prospects like for a 44 year old developer looking for a job in a technology he doesn't have much experience in?- How long would it take to get to a salary of say R45k gross per month?- What is a reputable institution these days to do a thorough course in getting certified as a Java developer in up to date versions/frameworks etc that is currently used in the market place?In 2001 I did the Java programmer course at VZAP (Van Zyl & Pritchard) programming school which was very comprehensive. Infact the first part of the course concentrated purely on Object Oriented Analysis and Design and theoretical stuff which I think has really helped me in grasping the basics of other technologies along the way like Javascript and Python, etc. So ideally I would like to find a place that goes to the same depth of teaching.Appreciate any advice you can give.RegardsQuinton
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Quinton Curry
Jun 16, 2017, 12:15:46 PM6/16/17
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Hi Munaf,
Thanks for taking the time to send me some feedback.
I assume R12k is for an entry level developer with no previous working experience in any technology. I remember getting R6k when I started out 16 years ago!
I have some decisions to make - the challenge is finding the time and energy to put aside for Java learning while still holding down a 10 hours a day senior position where there's zero time to stray. Being married with kids doesn't make it any easier either - but you just got to do what you got to do hey!
Regards
Quinton
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Fritz Meissner
Jun 27, 2017, 8:54:23 AM6/27/17
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I am sceptical of Munaf's numbers. 12k is lower than I started on 10
years ago. It is pretty insulting that there are companies out there
who could think that this is fair compensation for the value that a
developer can add.
Offerzen provides some good data on people that they have actually
placed. Here is a recent post containing numbers for different
languages:
https://www.offerzen.com/blog/developer-salaries-for-different-programming-languages
Regards,
Fritz
>>>> CTJUG-Forum...@googlegroups.com
years ago. It is pretty insulting that there are companies out there
who could think that this is fair compensation for the value that a
developer can add.
Offerzen provides some good data on people that they have actually
placed. Here is a recent post containing numbers for different
languages:
https://www.offerzen.com/blog/developer-salaries-for-different-programming-languages
Regards,
Fritz
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> Regards,
>
> Quinton Curry
> Email: quinto...@gmail.com
> Cell: 083 287 7793
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>
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> Regards,
>
> Quinton Curry
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Gary Jacobson
Jun 27, 2017, 9:40:18 AM6/27/17
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I'm extremely skeptical of Offerzen's numbers. I've interviewed many Java programmers for my company and the salaries that juniors are requesting are way below what Offerzen shows.
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Fritz Meissner
Jun 27, 2017, 6:21:55 PM6/27/17
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I like the idea of OfferZen because in theory they eliminate the
information asymmetry. As a result I would expect their numbers to be
higher than people who don't know what the market will bear.
Regardless, what I was paid in 2007 plus inflation is more or less
consistent with these numbers, and there is the Amazon effect that
kicked in a few years after.
Sheesh, for a guy who ignored OZ for his last (very recent) job search
I sure sound like a paid shill (promise I'm not).
Regards,
Fritz
>> >>>> CTJUG-Forum...@googlegroups.com
information asymmetry. As a result I would expect their numbers to be
higher than people who don't know what the market will bear.
Regardless, what I was paid in 2007 plus inflation is more or less
consistent with these numbers, and there is the Amazon effect that
kicked in a few years after.
Sheesh, for a guy who ignored OZ for his last (very recent) job search
I sure sound like a paid shill (promise I'm not).
Regards,
Fritz
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Gary Jacobson
Jun 28, 2017, 11:47:52 AM6/28/17
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We use OfferZen, it's a pretty good system. However, to be honest I think they have incentive to inflate the salary numbers, both to attract candidates who see their adverts and blog posts, and to get a higher commission.
I just logged in to OfferZen now to check - I can see 17 Java candidates with 0-1 years experience. Their average preferred salary is slightly under R20k/month. Compare that to OfferZen's blog post which says the average for a Java developer with 0-1 years experience is R26k/month.
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Fritz Meissner
Jul 5, 2017, 5:25:58 AM7/5/17
to ctjug-forum
That report lists the average of candidates placed.
If the available candidates pool for Java is anything like it is for
Ruby I wouldn't be surprised if the numbers for candidates available
are significantly lower. The Ruby pool skews heavily towards the
people who could not pass a basic coding interview (FizzBuzz level).
At any given time there's one or two people who are interesting and
they get snapped up pretty quickly.
>> >> >>>> CTJUG-Forum...@googlegroups.com
If the available candidates pool for Java is anything like it is for
Ruby I wouldn't be surprised if the numbers for candidates available
are significantly lower. The Ruby pool skews heavily towards the
people who could not pass a basic coding interview (FizzBuzz level).
At any given time there's one or two people who are interesting and
they get snapped up pretty quickly.
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Munaf Sheikh
Jul 5, 2017, 6:15:24 AM7/5/17
to ctjug...@googlegroups.com
What's there to be sceptical of? This isn't something that can be disputed. Here's an advert:
Do you have min 1 year Java Development experience?
- Understand OO principles
- Know the standard Java API’s
- Concurrency
- IO
- JDBC
- Collections
- String Handling
- Dates
- Experience unit testing using JUnit and Mockito
- Experience working with Java Runtime Environment at least version 6
- Experience using the Eclipse IDE
- Experience working with source control management systems like Git and SVN
- Experience working with continuous integration systems like Stash/Nexus/Bamboo
R 12000 - 40000 Monthly --- WITH 1 year experience.
Also, that was my salary 10 years ago when I first started out. Inflation or no inflation, from the advert above, it's clear that this is still the entry level (or close to) asking price.
--
Fritz Meissner
Jul 15, 2017, 2:39:07 AM7/15/17
to ctjug-forum
"This isn't something that can be debated"
You might be completely correct. Maybe you're an employer or recruiter
at BigCo who sees thousands of CVs. However, you haven't communicated
that much.
On the strength of what you've actually shown, things that aren't up for debate:
* one recruiter thinks that they can pay between R12000 and R40000 for
someone with 1 year of experience
* you started on "about 12k" 10 years ago (this really makes my point for me)
Things that ARE up for debate:
0) How many adverts like this are there?
1) Has anyone ever responded to this advert?
2) Massive salary range - are people who do respond asking for the minimum?
3) Are people who respond and ask for > 12k doing so because of
they're more experienced, or are they people with the minimum
experience who know when they're being taken for a ride?
4) What other markets are developers making use of? No developer I
know is changing jobs on the strength of a pnet advert. People
searching on Pnet are either completely disconnected (surely a rarity
- anyone with programming keywords in their CV is being spammed
relentlessly on LinkedIn) or hasn't been able to pass an interview.
5) What if that recruiter is just incompetent? I hear from plenty of
recruiters who clearly haven't even read my CV.
Let's go back to the possibility that you do have complete knowledge.
Something must have gone massively wrong for our high demand
profession to be paying the same thing it was 10 years ago. This
effect would have to distort an enormous segment of the market that
I'm not in, in order to offset the increases in the part of the market
that I do see (including the effect of Amazon - new in that time -
completely changing the market).
Finally, if you are an employer, I hope you're paying at a minimum
whatever your starting salary was back then plus inflation (or
equivalent in fake money (stock) / perks if you're a startup).
Anything else seems immoral.
Regards,
Fritz
You might be completely correct. Maybe you're an employer or recruiter
at BigCo who sees thousands of CVs. However, you haven't communicated
that much.
On the strength of what you've actually shown, things that aren't up for debate:
* one recruiter thinks that they can pay between R12000 and R40000 for
someone with 1 year of experience
* you started on "about 12k" 10 years ago (this really makes my point for me)
Things that ARE up for debate:
0) How many adverts like this are there?
1) Has anyone ever responded to this advert?
2) Massive salary range - are people who do respond asking for the minimum?
3) Are people who respond and ask for > 12k doing so because of
they're more experienced, or are they people with the minimum
experience who know when they're being taken for a ride?
4) What other markets are developers making use of? No developer I
know is changing jobs on the strength of a pnet advert. People
searching on Pnet are either completely disconnected (surely a rarity
- anyone with programming keywords in their CV is being spammed
relentlessly on LinkedIn) or hasn't been able to pass an interview.
5) What if that recruiter is just incompetent? I hear from plenty of
recruiters who clearly haven't even read my CV.
Let's go back to the possibility that you do have complete knowledge.
Something must have gone massively wrong for our high demand
profession to be paying the same thing it was 10 years ago. This
effect would have to distort an enormous segment of the market that
I'm not in, in order to offset the increases in the part of the market
that I do see (including the effect of Amazon - new in that time -
completely changing the market).
Finally, if you are an employer, I hope you're paying at a minimum
whatever your starting salary was back then plus inflation (or
equivalent in fake money (stock) / perks if you're a startup).
Anything else seems immoral.
Regards,
Fritz
Munaf Sheikh
Jul 15, 2017, 6:05:43 AM7/15/17
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It boils down to knowing your worth and also what the market thinks you're worth. Before I was in dev, I was lecturing. I've seen many (hundreds) of scrape-by graduates from college, tech, and uni desperate for jobs. Forget java jobs: any job will do. 10k? Let's go down to 5k for just-graduated java dev -- doing excel data capturing. Or 3k for packing clothes at pep stores. How about a business - computing grad working for 1.8k at kfc? The bottom line is people (java dev included) work for anything they can. The market is saturated with IT grads and "java devs".
As for morality, put that on your cv and try to sell it to your next employer.
David Hislop
Jul 15, 2017, 6:31:19 AM7/15/17
to ctjug...@googlegroups.com
Hi Munaf and Fritz
here are a few baseline comments
- there are a lot of Java jobs out there, but analysis shows they are personnel agents fishing. Job boards are troll-havens.
- personnel agents have got no clue. We get at least one letter from agents per day trying to sell candidates
- companies cannot afford real developers. They think a scrum master will solve all their problems.
- companies want to build new stuff but think they can do it cheap.
- Java has changed. Cloud and Spring and x Data are game changers. Also the reality is that new UI technologies make paying clients happy.
- there is no differentiation in the market - companies rely on wrong-headed heuristics to select candidates.
Sorry to be glum, but with less than 1% growth in ZA, what do you expect? Companies want to build stuff to grow, but do not know where to start. The right kind of developer can help them but they do not know this.
Regards
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Fritz Meissner
Jul 15, 2017, 6:44:31 PM7/15/17
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Perhaps our definition of "java dev" and "IT grad" is what is at issue here.
Are we talking about someone who can solve a problem that requires a
loop and some conditional logic (in any language), and take part in a
conversation about how to improve their solution? My definition of
entry level is someone who can do this, and the market I'm thinking
about starts there.
Perhaps what you're describing is an employer who hires people "below"
this level, and ends up teaching people to program from scratch. I can
imagine that there is a dearth of employers willing to go to this
extreme, and that those who do pay less to compensate for on the job
training. Perhaps kudos are due for willingness to teach; and I'm sure
they are aware that as soon as their new hires are competent they will
need to up salaries to hold on to them.
If there are hundreds of IT grads who cannot solve the simplest
problems I worry that they have been given a piece of paper that lies
to them about what they have been taught.
Regards,
Fritz
Are we talking about someone who can solve a problem that requires a
loop and some conditional logic (in any language), and take part in a
conversation about how to improve their solution? My definition of
entry level is someone who can do this, and the market I'm thinking
about starts there.
Perhaps what you're describing is an employer who hires people "below"
this level, and ends up teaching people to program from scratch. I can
imagine that there is a dearth of employers willing to go to this
extreme, and that those who do pay less to compensate for on the job
training. Perhaps kudos are due for willingness to teach; and I'm sure
they are aware that as soon as their new hires are competent they will
need to up salaries to hold on to them.
If there are hundreds of IT grads who cannot solve the simplest
problems I worry that they have been given a piece of paper that lies
to them about what they have been taught.
Regards,
Fritz
Fritz Meissner
Jul 15, 2017, 6:58:30 PM7/15/17
to ctjug-forum
Hi David,
> - there is no differentiation in the market - companies rely on wrong-headed
> heuristics to select candidates.
I can totally see experienced devs getting shortchanged in the long
run because it's hard to explain what difference years 5-10 or 10-20
make. I would expect that to possibly even inflate the value of a grad
in the eyes of this kind of employer ... "they can program, right? Why
can't they do your job?"
>
> Sorry to be glum, but with less than 1% growth in ZA, what do you expect?
This is certainly a concern. Maybe local companies aren't solving
problems that are expensive enough to justify skilled labour. Or their
customers are out of cash.
OTOH I struggle to recognise this as the ultimate reason for low
salaries in our industry when every company I encounter with a
software team is still hiring.
Regards,
Fritz
> - there is no differentiation in the market - companies rely on wrong-headed
> heuristics to select candidates.
run because it's hard to explain what difference years 5-10 or 10-20
make. I would expect that to possibly even inflate the value of a grad
in the eyes of this kind of employer ... "they can program, right? Why
can't they do your job?"
>
> Sorry to be glum, but with less than 1% growth in ZA, what do you expect?
problems that are expensive enough to justify skilled labour. Or their
customers are out of cash.
OTOH I struggle to recognise this as the ultimate reason for low
salaries in our industry when every company I encounter with a
software team is still hiring.
Regards,
Fritz
Dirk le Roux
Jul 15, 2017, 7:13:58 PM7/15/17
to ctjug...@googlegroups.com
We are hiring, send me your CV and maybe we can have a chat. Learning a new language should not drop you to junior rates at all. We all learn new things all the time on the job. It is part of the job.
Dirk
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Lisa Kriel
Jul 16, 2017, 5:03:02 AM7/16/17
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Hi, Quinton
Some suggestions for learning
You might like to try PluralSight to refresh your Java. (https://www.pluralsight.com/paths/java). I haven't done their Java path so can't vouch for it. PluralSight has a skills test which rates you as novice, proficient or expert.
I was able to get a 3-month PluralSight license via Microsoft. (msdn.microsoft.com). Try downloading MicrodVisual Studio and sign up (free) as a Microsoft Developer (I had to use my linked-in profile since I don't currently have a work e-mail)
Another avenue for free training is sitepoint.com is currently offering a 6-month premium membership if you complete their survey. Not sure of their Java content. (https://sitepoint.typeform.com/to/gwiEGq?source=onsite)
Also you can get free books on http://www.tradepub.com/
Subscribe to the newsletter on www.javacodegeeks.com,
Regards
Lisa
On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 2:39 PM, Quinton Curry <quinto...@gmail.com> wrote:
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