FW: Re: [cacor-climate] Large electric farm tractor from John Deere

8 views
Skip to first unread message

art.cacor

unread,
Oct 20, 2023, 11:50:04 PM10/20/23
to cacor-public




Sent from my Galaxy


-------- Original message --------
From: Rick Munroe <r...@kos.net>
Date: 2023-10-20 22:09 (GMT-05:00)
Subject: Re: [cacor-climate] Large electric farm tractor from John Deere

Thanks for the video, Dave.

I also examined several other websites re. JD, NH & Fendt electric tractors including an autonomous JD with no cab. 
All companies provide little info on what really matters: battery weight (almost 2000 kgs) or run-time (I saw 1 hr @ full power for JD, 4 hrs for another). That info came from other links and from comments.

In short, it seems as if we are still a very long way from having electric tractors that can do even a fraction of what diesel tractors can do. 

I expected to see at least a few electric tractors that can do what our old Ford can do (55 hp with loader) for at least 4 hours without recharging.

Hence my question re. on-farm H2 production & storage for large equipment on very large farms.

- Rick M



On Oct 20, 2023, at 5:53 PM, Cacor Canada <caco...@outlook.com> wrote:

 
 
 
Dave Dougherty
 
Sent from Mail for Windows
 

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "cacor-climate" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cacor-climat...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cacor-climate/SJ2PR02MB9366E2A26012738A38E07241A1DBA%40SJ2PR02MB9366.namprd02.prod.outlook.com.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "cacor-climate" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cacor-climat...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cacor-climate/F97CC2D5-9853-42EF-86C9-2289523557CD%40kos.net.

art.cacor

unread,
Oct 23, 2023, 2:05:47 AM10/23/23
to cacor-...@googlegroups.com, cacor-public
Having closely watched the development of EV batteries for the last 7 years I know there is an  incredible amount of intellectual power  focused on battery:

Power  density (range and 0Weight)
Physical size
Charge rate
Lifetime cycles (degradation)
Chemical reaction (materials)
Cost 
Safety
Robustness
Manufacturing at scale
Recycling
Ease of use
Reliability
Thermal limitations
Failure modes and effects
Discharge rate and other performance sensitive  factors.

Then there is the support infrastructure of charging stations, regulations at many government levels, spare parts, maintenence,  fleets, interchangeability, interoperability, inverters, control systems (local and remote), connectors, and speed of deployment.  I expect there are some I missed.

The point is that the demand markets are so big that physics and chemistry labs around the world are focused on improvements to existing designs to suit specialty markets like agriculture,  aircraft, ships and barges, trains, class 8 trucks and all supply chains, etc.

Keeping current on all this innovation is a challenge but batteries are at the bottom of their S curve.  Even the myths and FF propaganda don't seems to have big impacts any longer as job growth and profits are hard to ignore.  As the saying states "the ship has departed some time ago".
The billionaires are making money and their greed has no upper limit.

Terms like exponential,  hyperbolic, phenomenal, and unprecedented growth are routine.   $Trillions are migrating into evert sector of this market space.

If I was a new post-grad today, I would want to be in the middle of this development tornado.   But I have to be satisfied with being an early adopter , demonstrator, tinkering at the edges, advisor, influencer, and guest speaker on my own personal journey of discovery and survival. 







Sent from my Galaxy


-------- Original message --------
From: Rick Munroe <r...@kos.net>
Date: 2023-10-22 21:50 (GMT-05:00)
Subject: Re: [cacor-climate] Large electric farm tractor from John Deere

Thanks for the link, Dave. I had not seen it. 

I took screen-shots of the three tractors for my files but I see nothing that suggests great progress. All three tractors, none with a loader, are small by modern standards (55 - 70 hp) with one “reportedly” getting 5 hours out of a charge. 
That is what I expected, along with some guy’s offer to sell us his 52 page research for $1500 (on sale for $999), subscribe to his monthly magazine, etc.

His article did mention some of the other concerns (apart from hours of operation): "vibration, temperature fluctuations, and dust and water infiltration.”
I noticed in the aircraft video that the batteries had to be cooled. My guess is that those very large batteries for large EV tractors would also need cooling. If so, that could be a major concern during hot, dry conditions.
- rm



On Oct 22, 2023, at 9:14 PM, Cacor Canada <caco...@outlook.com> wrote:

As so often happens these days, technology progresses at incredible speed.
 
 
 
Dave dougherty
 
Sent from Mail for Windows
 
From: Rick Munroe
Sent: October 22, 2023 8:43 PM
To: cacor-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [cacor-climate] Large electric farm tractor from John Deere
 
Our National Farmers Union recently had a 90 minute presentation re. on-farm energy. We focused on three main options, each with a guest presenter:
1. H2 & ammonia, 2. biomass-based diesel, and 3. BEVs.
 
Of the three, the one that struck me (and, I believe most other attendees) as the least promising for farms is #3.
All three are best suited to very large farms that can afford the infra to generate the H2, biodiesel or electricity. Battery-electric tractors have the inherent disadvantages of needing to be able to generate lots of horsepower sustained over very long periods of time at considerable distances from any place to recharge. It’s hard to imagine swapping out a 2-ton battery ever being a practical option, least of all every 8 hours or so, in remote SK field.
 
If what I saw on-line is correct and the latest BEV tractors can still only allow 1 - 4 hours of operation under peak load then we have a very long way to go. 
 
You are correct re. long-haul trucking drawing in research: ag can piggyback on what gets developed for our highways. 
My understanding is that H2 & ammonia are viewed as having good potential for long-haul and that there is currently quite a bit of research for that application.
 
BEV technology seems very suitable for trucking that is relatively local, has regular routes that don’t take too long, has plenty of recharge locations, etc.
 
In the near term, liquid fuels (including #2) are bound to dominate for many reasons, primarily the long life of existing fleets (no farmer is going to walk away from diesel assets that have plenty of life still in them, nor should they) and relatively low cost and high energy-security of diesel supply. 
People mock our Ford 5000 and tell me to buy a 4WD with a cab, etc. The thing is 55 years old and is tough as nails. It is very frugal on fuel and does just about everything we need. I usually borrow my brother-in-law’s bigger tractor for round-baling but ours can do it if pushed.
I always say, “That old Ford will outlive me; maybe you, too."
 
The Swedish airplane video was very interesting but we see similar constraints: the passenger load (172 kg) is roughly equivalent to battery weight (2 x 70 kg) and 45 mins of flying time has constraints even for flight training, much less doing practical transport.
 
Many people underestimate just how special petroleum is and how difficult it will be to replace it for many applications, especially at scale. 
We don’t just have a shortage of alt-energy, we have “a longage of expectations” as they say. 
That will have to change but Joe Public won’t even consider such possibilities, much less actually discuss them.
- rick M
 
 
<T @ tarp barn.JPG><Rake & baler18.JPG>
 
 


On Oct 22, 2023, at 6:27 PM, Claude Buettner <clau...@comcast.net> wrote:
 
Rick, thanks for your observations. Like aviation, it's possible that farm machinery will lag the rest of industry in converting to EV since the imperative nature of agriculture will ensure it will continue even if diesel needs to be burned for the short run. 
  
I suspect the size of the over-the-road trucking market is taking most of the current development money and engineering talent. Ask yourself how many Highway tractor trucks there are compared with the number of farm tractors? I'll let you investigate the details but I suspect once you find an EV solution adopted in large number for over-the-road hauling you will see transfer of that technology to agriculture soon after. Government farm bills could accelerate this but I think it will be resisted by industry. The move to EV has to be sold as a move to greater food security to get EV preference into the various farm bills around the world.
  
  
Very Best Regards, 
Claude Buettner 
Mobile: 612-708-5615 
Playful New World Echos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0UH4urbmnc  
On 10/20/2023 9:09 PM CDT Rick Munroe <r...@kos.net> wrote:
  
  
Thanks for the video, Dave. 
  
I also examined several other websites re. JD, NH & Fendt electric tractors including an autonomous JD with no cab. 
All companies provide little info on what really matters: battery weight (almost 2000 kgs) or run-time (I saw 1 hr @ full power for JD, 4 hrs for another). That info came from other links and from comments.
  
In short, it seems as if we are still a very long way from having electric tractors that can do even a fraction of what diesel tractors can do. 
  
I expected to see at least a few electric tractors that can do what our old Ford can do (55 hp with loader) for at least 4 hours without recharging.
  
Hence my question re. on-farm H2 production & storage for large equipment on very large farms.
  
- Rick M 
  
 


On Oct 20, 2023, at 5:53 PM, Cacor Canada <caco...@outlook.com> wrote:
 
 
 
Dave Dougherty
 
Sent from Mail for Windows
 
 
--  
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "cacor-climate" group. 
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cacor-climat...@googlegroups.com. 
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cacor-climate/SJ2PR02MB9366E2A26012738A38E07241A1DBA%40SJ2PR02MB9366.namprd02.prod.outlook.com.
 
-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "cacor-climate" group. 
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cacor-climat...@googlegroups.com. 
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cacor-climate/F97CC2D5-9853-42EF-86C9-2289523557CD%40kos.net.
-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "cacor-climate" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cacor-climat...@googlegroups.com.
-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "cacor-climate" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cacor-climat...@googlegroups.com.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "cacor-climate" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cacor-climat...@googlegroups.com.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "cacor-climate" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cacor-climat...@googlegroups.com.
Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages