[C0 Lathe] C0 Lathe and pen turning?
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Jensmith25
May 10, 2010, 7:46:38 AM5/10/10
to Sieg C0 Baby Lathe
Hi,
I've just been given a 2nd hand Sieg C0 lathe for my birthday with the
intention of using it mainly for woodturning 1/12th scale miniatures
for my dollshouse.
I would also like to have a go at making pens but I have been told the
C0 doesn't have a morse taper to accept a standard pen mandrel.
I just wondered if anyone had tryied making pens and come across a
solution to this problem.
One solution I've been offered is to buy a MT1 to MT2 adaptor and
either turn down the MT1 male end to 10mm parallel or cut off the MT1
end completely and clamp the MT2 end in the chuck.
Any thoughts?
Jennifer
--
email this group at
C0-L...@googlegroups.com
or visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/C0-Lathe?hl=en
I've just been given a 2nd hand Sieg C0 lathe for my birthday with the
intention of using it mainly for woodturning 1/12th scale miniatures
for my dollshouse.
I would also like to have a go at making pens but I have been told the
C0 doesn't have a morse taper to accept a standard pen mandrel.
I just wondered if anyone had tryied making pens and come across a
solution to this problem.
One solution I've been offered is to buy a MT1 to MT2 adaptor and
either turn down the MT1 male end to 10mm parallel or cut off the MT1
end completely and clamp the MT2 end in the chuck.
Any thoughts?
Jennifer
--
email this group at
C0-L...@googlegroups.com
or visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/C0-Lathe?hl=en
David Halfpenny gmail
May 10, 2010, 11:17:51 AM5/10/10
to c0-l...@googlegroups.com
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Jensmith25" <jensm...@googlemail.com>
Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 12:46 PM
> One solution I've been offered is to buy a MT1 to MT2 adaptor and
> either turn down the MT1 male end to 10mm parallel or cut off the MT1
> end completely and clamp the MT2 end in the chuck.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
That's a neat idea - for a considerably bigger lathe.
The size of a 2MT socket is such that it will come almost as far out as the
tailstock centre.
I'll talk to a pen turner tonight and see what he does - his lathe doesn't
have a taper either.
David 1/2d
From: "Jensmith25" <jensm...@googlemail.com>
Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 12:46 PM
> One solution I've been offered is to buy a MT1 to MT2 adaptor and
> either turn down the MT1 male end to 10mm parallel or cut off the MT1
> end completely and clamp the MT2 end in the chuck.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
The size of a 2MT socket is such that it will come almost as far out as the
tailstock centre.
I'll talk to a pen turner tonight and see what he does - his lathe doesn't
have a taper either.
David 1/2d
Kludge
May 10, 2010, 6:34:23 PM5/10/10
to Sieg C0 Baby Lathe
Hi, Jennifer,
On May 10, 1:46 am, Jensmith25 <jensmit...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> I would also like to have a go at making pens but I have been told the
> C0 doesn't have a morse taper to accept a standard pen mandrel.
This isn't a factor. Non-Morse mandrels are also available. Penn
State Industries (http://www.pennstateind.com/) has them and other
supplies. Where there may be a problem is that there is only 5"
between centers which will cramp your style some. A regular length
blank with the mandrel et al is somewhat longer than that. On the
positive side, not all pens require a full length blank and some do
quite nicely with 1/2 blanks or slightly larger.
There are three normal hole diameters used, 8mm, 10mm and 3/8". The
non-Morse mandrels I know of are 8mm with adapters for larger sizes.
All the different pen styles use adapters to provide the end sizes
needed but if you freelance them, they're not really needed except to
match up to the hardware you'll be using.
Enjoy making pens. It's fun and can become a nice little income maker
if you work it right. :-)
BEst regards,
Kludge
On May 10, 1:46 am, Jensmith25 <jensmit...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> I would also like to have a go at making pens but I have been told the
> C0 doesn't have a morse taper to accept a standard pen mandrel.
State Industries (http://www.pennstateind.com/) has them and other
supplies. Where there may be a problem is that there is only 5"
between centers which will cramp your style some. A regular length
blank with the mandrel et al is somewhat longer than that. On the
positive side, not all pens require a full length blank and some do
quite nicely with 1/2 blanks or slightly larger.
There are three normal hole diameters used, 8mm, 10mm and 3/8". The
non-Morse mandrels I know of are 8mm with adapters for larger sizes.
All the different pen styles use adapters to provide the end sizes
needed but if you freelance them, they're not really needed except to
match up to the hardware you'll be using.
Enjoy making pens. It's fun and can become a nice little income maker
if you work it right. :-)
BEst regards,
Kludge
Jennifer Smith
May 11, 2010, 3:53:43 AM5/11/10
to c0-l...@googlegroups.com
Hi Kludge,
That's brilliant - exactly what I need. I have done some
investigation as the site you gave me is in the US and I have a couple
of options for getting one in the UK.
Planet/Rotur do one with just the plain shank which is adjustable so I
assume I could turn 1 half of the pen at a time if necessary.
A bit more of a faff but at least it makes it possible.
I've asked the Toolpost shop here in the UK as they sell a kit from
Planet that has everything you need and one version has a parallel
shank so I assume this is the same as the plain shank one I found on
Ebay that clamps into the 3 jaw chuck. I've asked anyway to make
sure.
Thanks very much for your help.
Jennifer,
That's brilliant - exactly what I need. I have done some
investigation as the site you gave me is in the US and I have a couple
of options for getting one in the UK.
Planet/Rotur do one with just the plain shank which is adjustable so I
assume I could turn 1 half of the pen at a time if necessary.
A bit more of a faff but at least it makes it possible.
I've asked the Toolpost shop here in the UK as they sell a kit from
Planet that has everything you need and one version has a parallel
shank so I assume this is the same as the plain shank one I found on
Ebay that clamps into the 3 jaw chuck. I've asked anyway to make
sure.
Thanks very much for your help.
Jennifer,
David Halfpenny gmail
May 11, 2010, 4:46:46 AM5/11/10
to c0-l...@googlegroups.com
Jennifer,
I met up with my pen-making friend last night. No pictures as he didn't
have with lathe with him, but good news.
Firstly, he doesn't use a pen mandrel.
(He has one, but says it's easier without it.)
Secondly he makes the pens in two separate halves, each little more than 2"
long, so the short bed of the C0 isn't a problem either.
(Although the C0 is quoted as having 5" between centres, that includes
the workholding arrangements and excludes a revolving centre. 4" is the
longest I can turn comfortably.)
I've never done this so I'm relaying a verbal description.
The pen kits come with two lengths of brass tube to which the wooden bits
are glued.
He drills the square wooden blanks down their length in a pillar drill and
smears the inside with glue. Then he pushes a brass tube into a potato to
plug one end, and pushes that end right through the hole, the potato plug
keeping the glue out of the hole. Then he trims the length of the wood back
to match the brass. One method is a disc sander.
Drilling the holes needs some care and a good drill bit that can cut
end grain. One option is Dad's pillar drill and drill vice. He may have
more ideas, and might come up with a SAFE rig using the lathe itself to
drive the drill.
The lathe is fitted with a revolving centre at one end and a plain centre
in the spindle. (I know you haven't got either yet but we'll come to that.)
He simply drives the brass tube (with wood attached) by friction. He has
ground a row of grooves in the plain centre, all leading to the tip, which
may or may not help.
[My engineer's little metal brain flags up a warning here - his lathe
is not as solid as the C0 and therefore its easier for him to get a
consistent friction force.]
You can get a revolving centre from Arc Euro Trade. The revolving bit is a
gnat's whatsit (technical term) over 8mm diameter so that sets the largest
size of brass tube you can use.
For a plain centre you have two options you need an engineering Dad -
sorted!
If your woodturning accessory came with a drive centre, he could copy
that - without the drive teeth.
If it didn't, here's a guide:
The centre is made almost, but not quite, like a Unimat one (the other type
of Unimat, not yours).
= It needs to be from 1/2" stock at least. Silver steel would be good but a
dog-end of mild steel would be OK.
= The spindle end has a parallel shank 9.99mm diameter, but since the
spindle bore is actually a whisker over 10mm it's best to turn down a bar
until it's a sliding fit. The stock item has a 15mm shaft to fit the
tailstock - for a headstock centre it would be good to go longer.
= The spindle end is countersunk for about a millimetre at about 60 degrees
included angle. That's the driving cone, and the most important bit to get
right. A smear of Micrometer Blue (or lipstick) will show him when he's got
the correct angle. (I'm telling you that - he'll know already.)
= Then it just needs a conical point that fits into the brass tubes you
might be using. 60 degrees included angle is traditional.
= I don't know whether grooves do any good, but ones ground freehand with a
motor tool should be fine.
Always use slicing cuts rather than scraping cuts except on very curly
grain. You'll need to start with a deep square-ended roughing gouge ( a HSS
bowl gouge without a handle works well for me). The way to use this to make
a square piece round without smashing it is not obvious! Once you've got it
round, there are Gouge people and Skew people, according to taste.
(If any of that doesn't make sense, it's important to find someone who
can show you. Pictures can show you what the tools look like and how they
relate to the work, but it takes a turner to show you how to move your
hands and wrists and elbows to move the edge through the cut.)
Finish with finer and finer abrasives - silicon carbide cloth is best -
finishing with burnishing cream - it's magic!
You'll revel in the variable speed knob on the lathe, which gives you a
decent top speed for polishing and something more manageable for the
initial rough turning.
David 1/2d
I met up with my pen-making friend last night. No pictures as he didn't
have with lathe with him, but good news.
Firstly, he doesn't use a pen mandrel.
(He has one, but says it's easier without it.)
Secondly he makes the pens in two separate halves, each little more than 2"
long, so the short bed of the C0 isn't a problem either.
(Although the C0 is quoted as having 5" between centres, that includes
the workholding arrangements and excludes a revolving centre. 4" is the
longest I can turn comfortably.)
I've never done this so I'm relaying a verbal description.
The pen kits come with two lengths of brass tube to which the wooden bits
are glued.
He drills the square wooden blanks down their length in a pillar drill and
smears the inside with glue. Then he pushes a brass tube into a potato to
plug one end, and pushes that end right through the hole, the potato plug
keeping the glue out of the hole. Then he trims the length of the wood back
to match the brass. One method is a disc sander.
Drilling the holes needs some care and a good drill bit that can cut
end grain. One option is Dad's pillar drill and drill vice. He may have
more ideas, and might come up with a SAFE rig using the lathe itself to
drive the drill.
The lathe is fitted with a revolving centre at one end and a plain centre
in the spindle. (I know you haven't got either yet but we'll come to that.)
He simply drives the brass tube (with wood attached) by friction. He has
ground a row of grooves in the plain centre, all leading to the tip, which
may or may not help.
[My engineer's little metal brain flags up a warning here - his lathe
is not as solid as the C0 and therefore its easier for him to get a
consistent friction force.]
You can get a revolving centre from Arc Euro Trade. The revolving bit is a
gnat's whatsit (technical term) over 8mm diameter so that sets the largest
size of brass tube you can use.
For a plain centre you have two options you need an engineering Dad -
sorted!
If your woodturning accessory came with a drive centre, he could copy
that - without the drive teeth.
If it didn't, here's a guide:
The centre is made almost, but not quite, like a Unimat one (the other type
of Unimat, not yours).
= It needs to be from 1/2" stock at least. Silver steel would be good but a
dog-end of mild steel would be OK.
= The spindle end has a parallel shank 9.99mm diameter, but since the
spindle bore is actually a whisker over 10mm it's best to turn down a bar
until it's a sliding fit. The stock item has a 15mm shaft to fit the
tailstock - for a headstock centre it would be good to go longer.
= The spindle end is countersunk for about a millimetre at about 60 degrees
included angle. That's the driving cone, and the most important bit to get
right. A smear of Micrometer Blue (or lipstick) will show him when he's got
the correct angle. (I'm telling you that - he'll know already.)
= Then it just needs a conical point that fits into the brass tubes you
might be using. 60 degrees included angle is traditional.
= I don't know whether grooves do any good, but ones ground freehand with a
motor tool should be fine.
Always use slicing cuts rather than scraping cuts except on very curly
grain. You'll need to start with a deep square-ended roughing gouge ( a HSS
bowl gouge without a handle works well for me). The way to use this to make
a square piece round without smashing it is not obvious! Once you've got it
round, there are Gouge people and Skew people, according to taste.
(If any of that doesn't make sense, it's important to find someone who
can show you. Pictures can show you what the tools look like and how they
relate to the work, but it takes a turner to show you how to move your
hands and wrists and elbows to move the edge through the cut.)
Finish with finer and finer abrasives - silicon carbide cloth is best -
finishing with burnishing cream - it's magic!
You'll revel in the variable speed knob on the lathe, which gives you a
decent top speed for polishing and something more manageable for the
initial rough turning.
David 1/2d
Jennifer Smith
May 11, 2010, 5:15:17 AM5/11/10
to c0-l...@googlegroups.com
Hi David,
Thanks for taking the time to describe it to me. I understand what
you're doing.
I imagine it's the finishing that really makes the difference with pens.
I don't think my Dad has done much woodturning so I'll probably use
practice and Youtube to get it right.
I've been picking stuff up fairly quickly so far so I think it'll be ok.
Jennifer,
Thanks for taking the time to describe it to me. I understand what
you're doing.
I imagine it's the finishing that really makes the difference with pens.
I don't think my Dad has done much woodturning so I'll probably use
practice and Youtube to get it right.
I've been picking stuff up fairly quickly so far so I think it'll be ok.
Jennifer,
David Halfpenny gmail
May 11, 2010, 5:45:15 AM5/11/10
to c0-l...@googlegroups.com
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Jennifer Smith" <jensm...@googlemail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 10:15 AM
> I've been picking stuff up fairly quickly so far so I think it'll be ok.
>
It's not YouTube but this is a good place to start - using a roughing
gouge:
http://tinyurl.com/36r5zky
The essence of it is that you use it in a quite different way to other
tools, and once you've got the knack it's a pussycat as well as a
timesaver.
Start at one end and take a slice off the end grain. That way the cut
supports the bevel of the tool and you don't get long rough splinters torn
off the work. On a pen-sized piece you can cut right down to solid round
wood in one go. Then you take another slice of the end grain that's left,
and then another until you've worked along taking most of the corners off.
Then go to the other end and do the same.
Just sticking the big gouge in hopefully will stop your Sieg motor
instantly - than goodness.
I'm making a big deal out of it because others reading may have
different lathes that don't stop quickly, and a big lathe can smash the
wood and fling the gouge up to the ceiling!
Used correctly, a roughing gouge will do most of the work on most projects
very quickly and cleanly - without excitement.
From: "Jennifer Smith" <jensm...@googlemail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 10:15 AM
> I've been picking stuff up fairly quickly so far so I think it'll be ok.
>
gouge:
http://tinyurl.com/36r5zky
The essence of it is that you use it in a quite different way to other
tools, and once you've got the knack it's a pussycat as well as a
timesaver.
Start at one end and take a slice off the end grain. That way the cut
supports the bevel of the tool and you don't get long rough splinters torn
off the work. On a pen-sized piece you can cut right down to solid round
wood in one go. Then you take another slice of the end grain that's left,
and then another until you've worked along taking most of the corners off.
Then go to the other end and do the same.
Just sticking the big gouge in hopefully will stop your Sieg motor
instantly - than goodness.
I'm making a big deal out of it because others reading may have
different lathes that don't stop quickly, and a big lathe can smash the
wood and fling the gouge up to the ceiling!
Used correctly, a roughing gouge will do most of the work on most projects
very quickly and cleanly - without excitement.
Jennifer Smith
May 11, 2010, 6:03:49 AM5/11/10
to c0-l...@googlegroups.com
Thanks David. I have actually read that online book a few weeks ago
but the refresher is no bad thing as I had forgotton some of the
details.
I don't have a proper roughing gouge at the moment as I got a set of
chisels for miniature stuff and those are a 5mm oval skew, scraper,
gouge and parting tool and a 2mm gouge.
What sort of size of roughing gouge would I need for pen turning and
miniature work?
I am very interested to see your photo of the square wood in the 3 jaw
chuck. Is this right? - the 2 lower corners of the blank are held on
the diagonal in the lower 2 jaws and then the top jaw holds the wood
on the square. Is the scrap wood just to provide grip or stop the
jaws marking the wood?
Thanks,
Jennifer,
but the refresher is no bad thing as I had forgotton some of the
details.
I don't have a proper roughing gouge at the moment as I got a set of
chisels for miniature stuff and those are a 5mm oval skew, scraper,
gouge and parting tool and a 2mm gouge.
What sort of size of roughing gouge would I need for pen turning and
miniature work?
I am very interested to see your photo of the square wood in the 3 jaw
chuck. Is this right? - the 2 lower corners of the blank are held on
the diagonal in the lower 2 jaws and then the top jaw holds the wood
on the square. Is the scrap wood just to provide grip or stop the
jaws marking the wood?
Thanks,
Jennifer,
David Halfpenny gmail
May 11, 2010, 6:20:12 AM5/11/10
to c0-l...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 11:03 AM
To: <c0-l...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [C0 Lathe] Re: C0 Lathe and pen turning?
> Thanks David. I have actually read that online book a few weeks ago
> but the refresher is no bad thing as I had forgotton some of the
> details.
>
> I don't have a proper roughing gouge at the moment as I got a set of
> chisels for miniature stuff and those are a 5mm oval skew, scraper,
> gouge and parting tool and a 2mm gouge.
>
> What sort of size of roughing gouge would I need for pen turning and
> miniature work?
1/2" to 3/4". That's very small as roughing gouges go, but will look
enormous beside your work!
The one in the photo is a 5/8" diameter bowl gouge, used without a handle,
and with its original square-across grind.
It suits me fine, though it would be even better if it were bevelled at the
45 degree angle shown in the website diagrams.
The essence of it is its deep U shaped groove. On all tools if a corner
gets under the wood the tool digs-in. This deep shape means that the
corners of the square material the corners of the wood can't get near the
corners of the tool.
> I am very interested to see your photo of the square wood in the 3 jaw
> chuck. Is this right? - the 2 lower corners of the blank are held on
> the diagonal in the lower 2 jaws and then the top jaw holds the wood
> on the square. Is the scrap wood just to provide grip or stop the
> jaws marking the wood?
>
I don't normally do it that way - I just crush the square between the three
jaws, like this attachment, but the result is off-centre.
That doesn't matter for most things, but when the square is a bit on
the slim side for the job, it's better to centre it up a bit. That's all
the little packing piece does - just centre it up. This grip is from the
other two jaws on two sides of the square and is a whole lot less secure
than without the packing, so go gently if you try it.
I just picked a picture that showed that roughing starts at one end and
works along cut by cut, cutting end-grain all the way.
David
To: <c0-l...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [C0 Lathe] Re: C0 Lathe and pen turning?
> Thanks David. I have actually read that online book a few weeks ago
> but the refresher is no bad thing as I had forgotton some of the
> details.
>
> I don't have a proper roughing gouge at the moment as I got a set of
> chisels for miniature stuff and those are a 5mm oval skew, scraper,
> gouge and parting tool and a 2mm gouge.
>
> What sort of size of roughing gouge would I need for pen turning and
> miniature work?
enormous beside your work!
The one in the photo is a 5/8" diameter bowl gouge, used without a handle,
and with its original square-across grind.
It suits me fine, though it would be even better if it were bevelled at the
45 degree angle shown in the website diagrams.
The essence of it is its deep U shaped groove. On all tools if a corner
gets under the wood the tool digs-in. This deep shape means that the
corners of the square material the corners of the wood can't get near the
corners of the tool.
> I am very interested to see your photo of the square wood in the 3 jaw
> chuck. Is this right? - the 2 lower corners of the blank are held on
> the diagonal in the lower 2 jaws and then the top jaw holds the wood
> on the square. Is the scrap wood just to provide grip or stop the
> jaws marking the wood?
>
jaws, like this attachment, but the result is off-centre.
That doesn't matter for most things, but when the square is a bit on
the slim side for the job, it's better to centre it up a bit. That's all
the little packing piece does - just centre it up. This grip is from the
other two jaws on two sides of the square and is a whole lot less secure
than without the packing, so go gently if you try it.
I just picked a picture that showed that roughing starts at one end and
works along cut by cut, cutting end-grain all the way.
David
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