KUb or Ub 9.10?
john_re
I've been a KDE user since early on, back in my Debian days, before I switched to KUb. I've long been a recommender of KDE over GNOME systems, because I felt the KDE project "got it", & the GNOME project didn't. "It" being good user interface & functionality & usability.
Last several years have seen the KDE project seem unable to follow good sw project management, predictability, communication, etc, with the 3 to 4 upgrade.
I held back, & used the Kub with kde 3 for a few releases, instead of the kde 4 based ones, because the kde 4 ones weren't fully baked. I've been using KU 904 with the latest KDE 4 from the ppa launchpad repo. So, kde 4 there has been useable by me for 6 months.
But, there are several things that KDE lacks (maybe tiny things, ex, the graphical size hard disk viewer from old konq file manager, (now there's a new file manager less good than the old kde 3 konq file mgr)), but maybe some more important things. What? I'm too tired to think.
And, it seems GNOME has been maybe catching up. Many BTIP people use gnome, not kde.
There is the "Network Manager" issue - that's been not baked - is it baked in ub or kub 910?
And, the KUb team seems to recognize they have problems - good is recognition, bad is problem.
http://www.kubuntu.org/news/timelord
"Through intense self-reflection, it has come to the attention of several Kubuntu developers that Kubuntu is not currently reaching its full potential. Whether due to major architectural changes in the software stack, the usage of certain Ubuntu technologies or limited developer time, we have realized that deep changes must occur. In order to fix this situation will do all in our power to make sure Kubuntu stands the test of time.
Project Timelord aims to establish a solid base for Kubuntu to build upon that will last a lifetime. "
== If you watched the Shuttleworth video for this month, about 10.04, he mentions that they'll be working on getting the "common application user notification system" implemented, an idea he says came from kde. So, in that area he indicates kde leads gnome, for the _next_ release.
Daniel told me he switched from mozilla Thunderbird for email to the gnome email program. I have issues with tb2 maybe weekly getting confused, & having to redownload 4000 messages from merely some _one_ of my mail folders. tb 3 is in beta? but, people in their forums indicate the tbird devs are more interested in adding new features than fixing basic functionality problems. I never got into using kmail, it seemed lesser featured than tbird, a few years ago when i settled on tb.
== The good news - continued progress. Though sometimes heka slow, & sometimes two forward one back.
== I'm currently using a 2009 amd 940 based quad desktop for most of my computing, & an about 6 yr old 1 core laptop for my occasional mobile stuff. I'd probably like to run the same distro on both, & be able to sync up the calendar, & maybe directory structure, & have the laptop files moved automagically to the desktop.
==
So, I just dl'd the KU isos. I'll try them out.
But, people with experience with G, or G & Kde, what's your recommendation? Which do you think is more fully featured, & should be used now?
For college student GNU(Linux) newbies, do you think Ub or KUb 9.10 is currently a better recommendation?
Thanks for any & all feedback. :)
Windsor Schmidt
Sam Faci
I've always found Gnome to approach user interface from a completely
different angle then KDE. Gnome has always had these decent defaults.
They make some assumptions as to what they think would work best for
you, and they run with it. Gnome being an open source project, you
can naturally change the behavior.. it's very easy, you just run
gconf2, and try to find this borderline re-implementation of the
windows registry with even less documention. (Yes, I'm exaggerating).
The point being, Gnome is great if you just use it, whenever you try
to customize it, it seems to want to fight you.
KDE I've found far more to my liking. I've used KDE from the 4.0 beta
stage all the way to the current version I have installed, (4.3.4).
They definitely could have had a smoother transition, but in the end
they made a decent product. I still find KDE more friendly and
intuitive to customize and configure.
That being said, 9 out 10 times I would point a new user to Ubuntu
over Kubuntu. One of the main problems with Kubuntu is that they have
a dismal number of developers compared to Ubuntu. Where Ubuntu might
have hundreds of devs, the KDE counter part might have... maybe 20-30
devs working on the distro (Numbers might be off, but last I talked to
Kubuntu Dev he gave me numbers along those lines). Kubuntu always
seems to be an after thought. We've got Ubuntu working, let's look at
doing the KDE portion as well. I also found that anytime you looking
for help regarding an issue in the forums, the solution ends up being
very gnome biased.
User: Looking for fix for this issue on Kubuntu.
Solution. Easy, install this gnome-abcd package, that'll fix it.
Which always ends up pulling some 400megs of deps in libraries you
never wanted on your system.
My recommendation always depends on your level of experience. As a
new user, I push Ubuntu. Gnome seems to me to have a very mac like
approach at UI (though less polished). It's simply and easy, you drag
and drop apps, and it just works (Referring to mac here, not gnome) .
The second you try to make it do anything fancy, that's another story.
If you're familiar with Linux and you like tinkering with things.. I'd
recommend KDE. I think it's a far better platform. Well, KDE, xfce,
xmonad, fluxbox...etc
From a geekier/coding perspective. Gnome seems to be heading more and
more towards mono/C# development which I never really understood the
motivation behind. You gain faster development time then c++, but
you're creating an open source GU environment that's based on a
re-implementation of a proprietary language which you have no control
over. KDE, on the other hand, seems mainly to be C++/Qt development
though they support a variety of other languages for their widgets. I
always found Qt to be a better GUI framework then Gtk, and much
prettier as of the 4.x release.
Again, this is my very biased opinion. Also at the end of the day,
whatever "Gnome" or "KDE" based distro you recommend, they're still
running a Linux kernel, x11, and some desktop environment. They can
easily install kde in ubuntu, or gnome on kubuntu, or any other
desktop environment. Just because the distro isn't optimized for that
particular desktop environment, doesn't mean they're locked in.
--
> --
> http://groups.google.com/group/BerkTIPGlobal
>
--
--
Samir Faci
*insert title*
`fortune`
john_re
> Go gnome, or go home!
;) Short & sweet. :)
W! Glad to see you among the living! ;) Didn't see a reply from you to the reply I sent to your leaving msg - did you see that?? It had a few questions for you I'd still be interested in hearing your answers to. :)
== Everyone -
& quick note to all posters - I know transmission & storage bits are cheap & getting moreso, but human processing is fixed. So, i think it would be great for everyone to trim or delete the "from" message as much as possible. Like, W, in this case you probly coulda deleted my entire message, given that your reply is captured entirely from the subject line alone. ;)
Thanks everyone if you do that. :)
==
Thanks W for your reply. :)
>
> -W
>
> On Dec 25, 2009 10:30 PM, "john_re" <joh...@fastmail.us> wrote:
>
> Is it time I switch to Ubuntu, & give up KDE?
...
Hike Danakian
Sam said:
> running a Linux kernel, x11, and some desktop environment. They can
> easily install kde in ubuntu, or gnome on kubuntu, or any other
> desktop environment. Just because the distro isn't optimized for that
> particular desktop environment, doesn't mean they're locked in.
That's sort of the problem though, its not that you're locked in, it's
that you don't have a polished system anymore. When Ubuntu does things
assuming you're using Gnome, of course you can still install KDE but
you'll likely have a very unpolished system. Why would I then use
Ubuntu over, say, Arch or any other more easily customizable system
(well, lets assume you don't really use it for apt, which you can
probably install, etc)? I use Ubuntu on my desktop system, on which I
have Kubuntu-desktop and xmonad installed. In 9.04 it happens to work
very well together. However, it bugs me when I have 2 of each tool,
and sometimes 2 of each backend, just to have 2 different desktop
managers. Xmonad works perfectly though, since it is just a window
manager, it doesn't care about which apps you use.
On my laptop, I have Arch linux with kde4 and xmonad (I usually use
xmonad now, because my mac touchpad doesn't work well in linux, namely
I cannot drag because it registers it as a scroll (unless I disable
multitouch) because my mouse doesn't have a separate button). I like
Arch because it lets me customize my system exactly as I want, and it
makes it easy to do so (unlike Ubuntu, IMO, which doesn't really care
about its users customizing their system, but rather that it is a
polished experience). But because it is a Macbook Pro, Ubuntu wasn't a
polished experience, but at the time I wasn't able to fix this because
of this immediate lack of customizability.
About defaults, I agree with Sam that gnome has better defaults but a
config tool that I probably wouldn't have even found if I didn't hit
g<tab> in terminal and stumbled upon it. It's really non-intuitive,
and it's really BS if anyone on the Gnome team says that "Oh, we have
customization, just use gconf" since no average user would be able to
figure out how to use it easily. However, why the heck does KDE
(specifically konquerer) have the worst defaults (IMO, and probably
many others who aren't used to KDE) possible? There is *nothing* wrong
with good defaults /and/ good customizability.
-- Hike Danakian
john_re
...
> gconf2, and try to find this borderline re-implementation of the
> windows registry with even less documention. (Yes, I'm exaggerating).
Ah, interesting, that is new info to me, & good to know (so i can avoid it).
> The point being, Gnome is great if you just use it, whenever you try
> to customize it, it seems to want to fight you.
>
Great insight - that is the kind of thing I was hoping someone would enlighten me about - specifics about what might be the major problems/challenges with gnome currently.
I still find KDE more friendly and
> intuitive to customize and configure.
useful insight, thatnks. :)
>
> That being said, 9 out 10 times I would point a new user to Ubuntu
> over Kubuntu.
Wow - surprising/interesting.
One of the main problems with Kubuntu is that they have
> a dismal number of developers compared to Ubuntu....
. Kubuntu always
> seems to be an after thought. We've got Ubuntu working, let's look at
> doing the KDE portion as well. I also found that anytime you looking
> for help regarding an issue in the forums, the solution ends up being
> very gnome biased.
>
> User: Looking for fix for this issue on Kubuntu.
> Solution. Easy, install this gnome-abcd package, that'll fix it.
Yeah, that ive seemed to encounter several times myself. :( - oh, well, at least there _is_ a solution. [be it though gnome, not kde ;) ]
>
> Which always ends up pulling some 400megs of deps in libraries you
> never wanted on your system.
yep
>
> My recommendation always depends on your level of experience. As a
> new user, I push Ubuntu.
Interesting. So, I'll have to keep this idea open for college students new to free sw, which is one of the main tasks /groups for outreach in Spring 2010 semester.
Gnome seems to me to have a very mac like
> approach at UI (though less polished). It's simply and easy, you drag
> and drop apps, and it just works (Referring to mac here, not gnome) .
> The second you try to make it do anything fancy, that's another story.
>
> If you're familiar with Linux and you like tinkering with things.. I'd
> recommend KDE. I think it's a far better platform.
Bottom line I take from yor comments: There is no _clear_ winner currently: both have both adv & disadvantages.
From a geekier/coding perspective. Gnome seems to be heading more and
> more towards mono/C# development which I never really understood the
> motivation behind. You gain faster development time then c++, but
> you're creating an open source GU environment that's based on a
> re-implementation of a proprietary language which you have no control
> over. KDE, on the other hand, seems mainly to be C++/Qt development
> though they support a variety of other languages for their widgets. I
> always found Qt to be a better GUI framework then Gtk, and much
> prettier as of the 4.x release.
1)dev tools, & 2) framework - good ideas to keep in mind. &, I wonder, in 5-10 years, what we will have, & how the competition will have played out. :)
>
...
>
> On Sat, Dec 26, 2009 at 12:30 AM, john_re <joh...@fastmail.us> wrote:
> > Is it time I switch to Ubuntu, & give up KDE?
> >
> > I've been a KDE user since early on, back in my Debian days, before I switched to KUb. I've long been a recommender of KDE over GNOME systems, because I felt the KDE project "got it", & the GNOME project didn't. "It" being good user interface & functionality & usability.
;) Sam - one final note - the same on I made to W about quoting the entire message being replied to. ;)
Sam Faci
collapsed, unless I care enough to view it.
john_re
I can't recall if there was some mail sender program way to fix this, or if the suggestion was to register another google account for the 2nd email address too, if you didn't want to post from the gogle registered account.
Anyone else on the list recall if there was an easy way to solve this?
On Sun, 27 Dec 2009 16:08:01 -0600, "Sam Faci" <safac...@gmail.com> said:
...
moderation grant needed due to not from google btip registered address.
[iirc. ;) - rather tired for thinking, right now. ;) ]