Sail Life

[Ben Campbell]

Hi,

For those who bought a Beneteau cruising model new long enough ago for it to matter: How long did you sails last?

We've had our 31 since 2009. It's on a north Texas lake, so we don't tend to get the wind speeds that the salt water guys see, but it does tend to be very gusty. We also have a furling main. It's starting to seem like our sail shape is suffering. It seems like it's getting harder to stay balanced in the gusts, and it seems like the hollow leach of the furling main is starting to cost us more speed.

We've got Neil Pryde OEM sails. We painted the bottom in 2011 (which made her seem like a new boat at the time), and we have a diver clean it quarterly. We mainly day sail. I do race some, but it's all beer can stuff.

Is it time to start thinking about new sails? Seems like cruising sails would last longer under these conditions, but I don't know the quality of the OEM sails to start with.

[Jeff Taylor]

I just got rid of and 11 year old UK tape drive main. The delimitation was at the UV cover.

I would think your sail has a few years left. Check the tuning of your rig if you are slow. Don't send the sail to the company in Pittsburgh for cleaning. I think they are called Sail Care. Both sails which were Dacron on a old boat shrank and were unusable.


Jeff taylor
Vixen 45f5

Sent from my iPhone. JCT

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[Rick Donovan]

On Jul 27, 2012, at 4:31 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:

For those who bought a Beneteau cruising model new long enough ago for it to matter: How long did you sails last?

I hope Ivars gets in on this as I think he is the most knowledgable I have read here for sails, cloth technology, etc.

we bought a brand new 2002 473 with the Neil Pryde "Performance Sails" package. basically what that means is the main sail is a classic slab reefing sail with full leech instead of the much more common furling main with the hollow leech on the 473. that slab reefing style of main is what I learned to sail with and that is what I feel provides the best all around sailing performance so the option was high on my list when we agreed to buy the new 473. performance was probably more important to me than it is to many of the folks on the list.

I have a racing back ground and have a decent feel for sail shape and the quality of build for a sail when looking at it closely. I know what I can and can not do with onboard adjustments to change the shape for changing wind speed and sea conditions from this racing over many years. in my opinion, there were no problems with how the Neil Pryde sail is put together, for our boat. 

in a short time, by the second season, the main had a noticeable change in sail shape that with out haul and halyard tension I could get decent but 15 minutes later it looked to have changed again. keeping the adjustment constant was what I found first as a problem with these sails. I did all the usual stuff like upgrading halyards and sheets but it did little in the end to control the ever changing sail shape. 

the problems with our sails was the cloth used in the build of the sails. in defense of the foreign building loft, that is not their fault. they build using the specified material and weight of the cloth. if this were a quality problem I would have a completely different opinion but that is not what our sails were in 2002.

once the material stretches it never goes back to the original shape. this problem I believe was because of the materials used not the assembly process. I know many companies take a hit in public opinion on how the quality suffers because of being built overseas and as far as I could find out the Neil Pryde sails at that time were done in China. 

my opinion is and always has been that the cloth is the single most important factor when deciding to purchase sails. it has more to do with expected life of the new sail than most anything else a sail maker will do to that sail during the build process. 

as for expected life of a new sail, that is very difficult to predict. I have seen brand new sails destroyed in one afternoon on the race course because they were up in stronger winds than they were designed for and we all know sailors that are proud of their sails being 15 or even 20 years old and "still looking good". not to a trained eye but they are happy and that is what is important in the end.

if I had to put a number on it,and I hesitate to do that, a boat sailed here in the north east and properly cared for, properly sailed, i.e. reefed at the right times etc should expect 5-6 years of normal cruising use from a good high quality built sail before they would be "bagged out" as some like to call it.  I think it is unreasonable to expect that same amount of time from the factory sails on the Beneteau's at the time we bought our boat. I have no idea what Beneteau is doing today but would expect that they have cut corners as much as possible trying to keep the costs down. that is what companies do, just no way around it. my best guess is that the sail cloth is on the low end of the quality spectrum simply because of the cost of the material to the builder.

Rick Donovan

Biddeford, Maine

[Bill Bausha]

I got 10 years out of my main, 2001 B381
Jack Rose IV

Sent from my iPhone

[Ivars]

First of all don't judge ANY OEM sails by the label they have. All OEM
sails are controlled by the boat manufacturer. It's all about cost to the
boat manufacturer, as they control the specifications and limit cost.
Beneteau does decently in this area using Neil Pryde Sails, there is a lot
of value in their sails, and the original OEM spec is hard to beat for for
what is offered and the price.

How long should a sail sail last is very difficult to answer with a simple
number. There are many factors that influence how a sail wears and the time
it lasts. The number one thing that affects sails is UV degradation. The
there is the wear and tear of general use. In charter fleets a sail can
last as little as 18-24 months with average replacement in the 24-36 months
of use. In charter service the sails are exposed almost daily to UV or
almost constantly, they are physically under a load ( sailing )almost every
day as well, then they are handled by any number of people in all sorts of
abuse which breaks down the fabric.

Sail shape is influenced by the stability of the fabric. It is possible to
lose sail shape in a single robust outing where the cloth is stressed to the
point where the weave breaks down and allows the cloth to stretch beyond
its' design limits. Woven cloth treated with resins and stabilizers as the
sail is folded and bundled these resins break down. New cloth feels very
firm and stiff while as the cloth ages it starts to soften and go limp as a
common rag. A sail that may look good to the cruiser may be discarded by
the racer because the shape is gone while the cloth may still appear to be
serviceable.

Your 2009 sail should be serviceable as far as the cloth may appear with
regard to the years of use. Your observations are consistant with a sail
that has lost its' shape. A sail that has lost its' shape holds more air
because it has stretched, will hold more air as it loads up leading to more
heel and helm instead of propelling the boat forward. It is a matter of
budget, how you sail, and your expectations, a new RF main would cure all
that you are observing. Your current sail is at the point of being used up
by time as well.

[David Mackintosh]

WOW what a question

We have a Doyle (Moorings mainsail)   This is a different sail not as much area as the STD Traditional Bennie 461 mainsail - with no headboard and only two full length battens (the bottom two) it is now 12 years old and still has some decent life left in it and this is Caribbean sailing with 9 years in charter with the sail never put in the stack pack so lots of UV degradation.

The boat was also raced quite a bit when it was in the Moorings fleet in the main Caribbean regattas it was 'allegedly' the fastest Oceanis 461 in the Caribbean and was a sought after boat for these Caribbean regattas.

About 4 years ago we ripped the sail from luff to leach in a 25 knot jibe...............this if course was the part of the sail that was 'left exposed to the Caribbean sun' At no time when i came to the boat was the sail packed away in a zipped up stack pack - so it was  not the helms or the sails 'fault'.

We had that complete panel replaced.

We have ourselves restitched by hand a number of rows of stitching at various places in the last two three years.

Caribbean Cruising (Fun in the Sun - AKA fixing a boat in a HOT Climate)

The leech tape has fallen apart a number of times in a few places (chaff by the topping lift on the sail {probably by it not being released enough])

This year we had to have the luff cord redone as it was not attached to the sail any more in the top half of the sail (stitching issue) so it was impossible to haul the halyard tight enough to move the draft forward - we tend to reach a lot so this was not a big issue for us.

I was planning to replace both sails this year BUT having had a good look at them when they were off the boat at the sail-makers and with sensible conversation with the sail-maker as we examined both sails for repairs etc they are good to go for another two years at least.

The shape in the mainsail is still great (and i am a racer) it will be the stitching failing too much for us to keep wanting to restitch it that will be what causes me to replace this sail.

The Genoa is in a much sadder state than the mainsail due to IDIOTS...ops charterers tightening the leach line rather than moving the car to stop the sail motoring.............this has caused the sail to stretch in front of the leech line so we now have a badly hooked leech this sail is 5 years younger than the mainsail.

 I have got a replacement New Genoa for almost no money.................it was sitting in stock in the sail-makers loft :-)  It is not a 461 Genoa it is a bit smaller but in the Caribbean a 150% Genoa is an embarrassment and the sail we have just now is i think 130%  so i will put this new one on the boat at the end of this year when we go back to Highland Fling and see how it performs.

I should add that we almost never go to windward...........a close fetch is about as close as we get to the wind (by choice) except in the Sir Francis Drake Channel BVI's when to go east 99% of the time you have to sail hard on the wind or motor it is amazing how many people do just motor :-(

You are a bit far away for a Doyle sail i suspect but as you can see they do build some serious bullet proof sails and i would recommend them to anyone wanting good long lasting sails.

http://www.doylesails.com/cruising/rollaway/index.html

Around 80 percent of all sails are made by the China Sail Factory now so the label on your sail does not mean anything now

http://www.china-sail-factory.com

http://www.leesails.ca/images/Sailsfromchina2.pdf

regards

David

[Ivars]

anyone can use a sail until it shreds,  a sail will be a sail as long as it can be hoisted...  ever wonder where the phrase "rags" used by sailors came from   :=) 

 

the original poster observed that the performance of his sails / boat was lost,  what he described is consistant with worn out sails...  sails that have lost their shape and make the boat less pleasurable to sail...

 

using good sails makes sailing more pleasurable,  the boat goes up wind nicely, boat does not heel excessively or try to round up when a puff comes through, the helm stays neutral, one is not chasing trim, etc

 

using good sails makes cruising nicer by getting to the destination on schedule with less work,  it could mean the difference between arriving in daylight and not after dark

 

enjoyable sailing is more than good sails,  good mainainance of gear and bottom are part of the equation, good power is nothing unless it can be hooked up and managed

 

we wouldn't think of driving a car with a sputtering motor, out of balance worn out tires, a suspension that no longer works, etc...  why do the equivilant in a boat ?

 

 

 

 

---

From: benetea...@googlegroups.com [mailto:benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of David Mackintosh
Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2012 10:07 AM
To: benetea...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {Beneteau Owners} Sail Life

[Sam Dadier]

my b361 2001's sails are OK in Vancouver, doing half wind speed most of time, even more sometime!

Don't know if this suffice, but quite happy except for the dirty sacrificial part when jib unfurled which can be cleaned if someone can recommend a good sail cleaner in Vancouver.

 

Keep sailing!

 

Len

[Ivars]

depends on what is causing the stains... 

 

if it is normal dirt, most of it should come out with detergent and a little scrubbing with a brush... it is a easy do it yourself job...  if the UV is Sunbrella, it is cotton which can take a little bleach along with the detergent...( Dacron is resistant to bleach, while cotton can break down if too much bleach is used )  once  the UV is cleaned use a waterproofing  ...  the most cost effective is to use the cheapest silicon spray on the UV / sail cover to renew its water resistance ( do it off the boat or the decks will be slippery )  renewing the water resistance will help repell dirt and add life to the covers

 

the commercial sail cleaners will not be able to do much more than you, and will charge you a bundle.  The hard part is getting the sails off the boat, which is what you will be doing either way.   A deck brush and a bucket will get 'er done...

---

From: benetea...@googlegroups.com [mailto:benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Sam Dadier
Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2012 12:04 PM

To: benetea...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {Beneteau Owners} Sail Life

[David Mackintosh]

I dont know if that post was reply to my post or not.........................

BUT really it is absolutely impossible to establish the state of a sail from a few words here - 'sails that have lost their shape' is an assumption and could quite easily be just sails that are not hoisted and trimmed properly.

Pictures taken from the deck looking up at the sail certainly would help BIG TIME but words are fairly meaningless - unless it is to persuade a knowledgeable sailing friend to come sailing with you and have a look at your problem.

What i have discovered sailing in company with a lot of people with 45 to 75 foot boats with In Mast Furling is that  these people are not performance orientated and have little understanding of sail shape the reasons for it - as well as how to get that - including how to use what controls they have on their boat to maximise the performance from their In Mast Furling Mainsails I also know with a little 'friendly' advice from me and a hands on session all of them have reported much improved performance.

Some of that what was written there was too obvious for words BUT mixed in there were certainly a lack of clarity - even read as they are written misconceptions.

the boat goes up wind nicely, boat does not heel excessively or try to round up when a puff comes through, the helm stays neutral, one is not chasing trim, etc

There are many many reasons for a boat rounding up when a puff comes through ONE being that you NEED to re-trim for that puff.  If you are sailing properly (and enjoy getting the maximum performance from your boat) one is always chasing trim.  Neutral helm - yes well - i would almost always expect some standing helm (weather helm) in any decent sailing breeze - in very light winds with the boat heeled artificiality (crew sitting on the leeward rail) then you might see lee helm............neutral helm is not something i understand.

A boat with the newest of beautifully made sails will still round up and heel excessively in a gust for a number of reasons - the three obvious ones being over canvassed  over trimmed and having an unbalanced sail plan.

Finally the mind does play tricks IF you believe you have crap sails and you have lost performance then most surely you have.

regards

David

[Sam Dadier]

Thanks

Len

[Bruce Bates]

First of all OEM sails are built to wholesale price.To make that price the
cloth is basic Dacron and the design is out of the box cross cut. Often
times they are slightly short of the measured sail area to further save
money.
I replaced all my OEM European sails with UK Tape drive and Quantum
Triradial. I couldn't be happier with performance and longevity.
Bruce Allez OC 430

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ben Campbell" <b...@nostrum.com>
To: "Beneteau Owners" <benetea...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2012 4:31 PM
Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Sail Life

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02:34:00

[Ivars]

Bruce,

Your statement about sail cloth and sails is not true about most OEM
sailmakers... and absolutely NOT true with OEM sails coming from Neil Pryde
Sails...CHECK your facts before making derogatory broad brushed statements.
Your lack of knowledge about sails and sailmaking is showing as is your
backside.

-----Original Message-----
From: benetea...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Bates
Sent: Monday, August 06, 2012 5:05 PM
To: benetea...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {Beneteau Owners} Sail Life

Largest Beneteau group, over **1010** members and growing.

[davidcf...@rogers.com]

It amazes me how people want the best for the least amount of money.

I think Tim and Bob at Pryde do a pretty good job for a non custom loft.

Not sure why everybody is so tuff on them

Fletch
Sent from my BlackBerry device on the Rogers Wireless Network

[Ivars]

There is nothing wrong for seeking the best pricing. The problem is that
most customers don't understand what they are ordering or the value of what
they are getting. It's like the cliché' about steak and the sizzle. Most
don't get beyond the sizzle.

What's a non custom loft ??? ALL sailamkers custom design their sails for
their customers, which is the core business for ALL sailmakers. All
sailmakers design and deliver to customer specs.

[davidcf...@rogers.com]

It seems to me when I explored a Pryde sail, I got a quote for a standard sail, there was nothing special, albeit I am sure it would have been a good sail. They said there was no need to even measure the boat.

It would have been built to a spec sheet which was the OEM design. I have a copy.

So I used the term non custom, like FX or Lee or on and on.

I do think Pryde is one of the best of the "big box" sail makers.

[Howard]

Ivars:  You're right on. 
Since my daysails on Santa Monica Bay always seem to turn into a race whenever I spot another sailboat....I went to my favorite sailmaker in Marina del Rey, who runs the local UK loft and bought a set of UK Tape Drive 2 sails.  There may be better or cheaper sails, but I'm getting incredible support from "Oliver".  He sold me the sails for my old boat, and continues to give me great professional advice.  His personal attention and advice has been consistent over the years!!!  Whenever I've had problems, he's always there to rescue me.  :)
Howard
ENCORE B411 #10
Marina del Rey
DRYC

Sent from a real computer!

[Ivars]

You are ordering a sail for your Beneteau. NP has been the OEM sailmaker
for them for years. When Beneteau has a new boat go into production, they
consult with their sailmaker about the rig and sail plan they have in mind
before the rig goes into production. Test sails are designed and verified
before anything goes into production. The sail plan is tested and evaluated
thoroughly. It is more than Beneteau sending in a few dimensions and saying
build this. The NP OEM sails actually are quite good and represent the best
value. NP helped design the rig, all the information is already on hand as
well any improvements to sail design. There is one question that is always
asked, has the rig been altered in any way from when it was delivered. If it
has then measurements need to be verified. ( a furling system could have
been exchange, tack positions changed, etc ) Any number of details can be
changed or adjusted... My favorite is adjusting the boom height for bimini
clearance and maintain full range of trim without interfereing with it.

[davidcf...@rogers.com]

Agreed, you win

[Jeffrey Schwartz]

I agree there is more than a lot to be said for using local lofts; I use Bremen Sails in Miami, FL… Tom Bremen is second generation and most sailors don’t know what he forgot about sailing and sails.  The service and quality cannot be matched by out of town lofts.   He will make them from the material you want, but first he consults you on the choices, prices, etc. so one can make an informed decision on such an important part of our boats.  We work on boats in one of my firms divisions but we don’t do sails…we leave that up to the experts like Tom Bremen.

 

Jeffrey Schwartz

 

From: benetea...@googlegroups.com [mailto:benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Howard
Sent: Monday, August 06, 2012 7:02 PM
To: benetea...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {Beneteau Owners} Sail Life

 

Ivars:  You're right on. 

--

[Ivars]

There is no win or lose... It's about being correct

[davidcf...@rogers.com]

Yes sir, I guess they make vanilla and chocolate ice cream for a reason.

I just can't see how sending an email to Bob Pattison and getting a pdf of the sail spec's and a price all in 15 minutes is a custom sail.

It is good sail, but custom, I am not as sure as you are.

[Ivars]

It was not made until it was ordered...many changes could have been made to
suit your needs, any design improvements would have been included
There are no sails sitting on a shelf waiting for a customer. If you are a
Catalina owner they have sails sitting on their shelf waiting to be bought,
no changes...

It's the same when you see your tailor, he has your measurements on file and
works from there at your direction...
By your definition you would be getting a suit off the rack

[Howell Cooper]

Been using Neil Pryde sails for almost 30 years and no complaints to include the OEM sails on our 1998 411.  There are so many variables both in use and maintenance that it is hard to predict useful life and even service life which is longer.  Those on the cutting edge of racing will not be so pleased as those cruising with old sails.  But if one is not up to hull speed all the time one may just be a cruiser.  It is an age thing mostly.  We once tore around the planet at max speed and now are content with just a modest performance out of our old canvas.  NP has a trade winds heavy sail that we use and while they do not perform well in light air, they keep us moving in the somewhat lively air of our home waters.  Point is that we no longer tweak unless of course we are parallel to another sailing vessel.  Even then, we don't mind much if the other crew keeps busy clicking the winches and bending on those tape drive, graphite sails.  It is sort of a similar mind set to the young bull and the old bull on the hill.  We prefer to make haste slowly.  We do admire those fast sails though.

Cooper

[Bruce Bates]

Hey Ivars I have more than 45 years experience sailing in Blue water ( not
crappy shallow southern lakes), Many of my friends are in the sailmaking
business. I defy you to compare OEM sails to first quality ,made to order
sails from North,UK ,Quantum etc. First ,the cloth quality and design are
lightyears ahead of offshore made OEM sails.I forgot more than you know
about sails.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ivars" <dbg...@mindspring.com>
To: <benetea...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, August 06, 2012 5:56 PM
Subject: RE: {Beneteau Owners} Sail Life

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Ivars]

Bruce,

You are still insisting on putting your backside on public display...

Have you considered the possibilities that all of your claims can be
trumped,

[Howell Cooper]

Gentlemen,
Might you meet in the clearing at dawn and bring your seconds?  This banter about sail knowledge is getting nasty. Does it really matter compared to the stuff that is happening on this planet?  I know. I know what I can do with my comment so you don't have to tell me. 

Cooper

[Howell Cooper]

Ah, the smell of napalm in the morning.

[Bruce Bates]

Ivars your partisanship is showing.Every body on the list knows you rep NP
Sails (AKA Hong Kong INC)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Ivars]

Bruce,

That's correct, I am with NP Sails and your point is ? Although I do not
know what or have any association with "AKA Hong Kong INC" ( is this an
example of your disinformation )... Please tell us about what you are
talking about.

[Gmail-Ed]

Just to mix up this discussion, we purchased our new Oceanis 40 two years ago and quickly purchased a new North Carbon/Kevlar main. It is obviously superior to the Neil Pryde OEM sail, HOWEVER, our North sailmaker (an Olympic Silver Medalist in Stars and professional sailor to cite his credentials) looked at the NP OEM headsail and suggested that we use it for a couple of years because it had good shape and it would be dollar foolish to move from it, even as we wanted higher performance sails. Ultimately, we went with Neil Pryde to build a new Kevlar/Carbon headsail after two years and find it to be fast in all conditions.

A closing thought, these discussions are always more useful without the sarcasm. I too have been a serious ocean racer/sailor for many years and have found Ivar's comments useful over those years. His knowledge about cloths and shapes have helped to steer many less knowledgeable in the correct direction.

Cheers,
Ed English
Orange Blossom Special
Sent from my iPad

[Bill Jarvis]

Thank you Ed for bringing some civility to what was fast becoming unbecoming
for this list.

Bill

[Bruce Bates]

My point is, as the original message stated, that OEM sails are by
definition not as good as custom made sails because they are mass produced
to a price point . That is a undeniable fact.
What does your use of "US" mean? Have you taken over speaking for this
group?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Ivars]

just making an attempt to clear up the incessant disinformaation, which
obviously seems to be an attempt in futility

[Rick Donovan]

On Aug 7, 2012, at 2:49 PM, Bruce Bates wrote:

Have you taken over speaking for this group?

Bruce,

Ivars has been our go to guy for technical sail questions for many years. from my time on this list he has given nothing but accurate and reliable answers to anyone requesting information on sail adjustments, rig settings, new sail designs, cost vs performance etc. I have not one time read anything from him that seemed to be aimed at pumping his place of employment. his information has been spot on from the experience I have with 25 years of sailing offshore, cruising and racing. as a matter of fact, although I believe he is employed in the sail making business, I have no idea where he hangs his hat each day. I believe we are lucky to have him to bounce Ideas off of. 

if you also have similar technical skills, then by all means possible I welcome your participation in this discussion on the forum. 

I am not sure how this got cranked up to the volume that it did, but there is no need for any of us to get that bothered by someone else's opinion. this is highly unusual for this forum and we just don't need that sort of controversy. everyone is entitled to their opinion, but we need to be respectable when voicing that opinion. I reply on subjects that I think I can offer some hard earned experience but I never get to excited if someone doesn't agree with my views and you should not either. life is much too short to worry about such foolishness. I suggest that we all state our case on a topic and let the original poster then decide what to do from there. 

Rick Donovan

Biddeford, Maine

[Kidd, James]

Thank you, Rick. Well said.

 

James A. Kidd

Adventure Galley B 473

Office / Cell: 617-448-2575

jk...@Kaydon.com

From: benetea...@googlegroups.com [mailto:benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Rick Donovan
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 3:42 PM
To: benetea...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {Beneteau Owners} Sail Life

 

 

On Aug 7, 2012, at 2:49 PM, Bruce Bates wrote:

--

[Bruce Bates]

Rick :

 I stated my opinion on OEM sails. I stand by that opinion. Ivars made it personal. All that other stuff you mention is fine. But the fact is if you want a sail that is built for your type of sailing, for your particular boat, be that racing or cruising an OEM sail is not the one you want.

Bruce

----- Original Message -----

From: Rick Donovan

To: benetea...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 3:42 PM

Subject: Re: {Beneteau Owners} Sail Life

--

Largest Beneteau group, over **1010** members and growing.
 
To post to this group, send email to Benetea...@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to Beneteau-Owne...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Beneteau-Owners
contact denny.we...@gmail.com, or ume...@comcast.net if you have a list management question
 
 
 

[Rick Donovan]

On Aug 7, 2012, at 5:48 PM, Bruce Bates wrote:

Rick :

 I stated my opinion on OEM sails. I stand by that opinion. Ivars made it personal. All that other stuff you mention is fine. But the fact is if you want a sail that is built for your type of sailing, for your particular boat, be that racing or cruising an OEM sail is not the one you want.

Bruce

sorry everyone to keep this going, but I need to make what should be a very obvious point.

there are a lot of Beneteau's out there sailing every season on the OEM sails and they are doing just fine. as a former racer, I can see that the shape right out of the bag for an OEM sail has room for improvement but for the majority of the Beneteau market, that is simply not the case. the majority is what all of the production builders design their products for.

our 473 came with OEM Neil Pryde sails. my one and only complaint with those sails was the material they used to build the sails. as has been noted already, the dacron cross cut design is a way to save on cost of a sail. I suspect that the sail design and the material used was specified to keep the costs down by Beneteau. the craftsmanship in the building of those sails was very good in my opinion. I think they were built in China but not positive about that. the seams were triple stitched. the sail has chafe patches in all the right places and they fit the boat. that is what Beneteau contracted that company to build. after the first season I could see the material stretching in places and that continued as long as they were on the boat. that said, we never had a single repair done on those sails in our time with them. my only gripe was that they stretched and lost their shape.

I had every intention of having sails built by my favorite local loft for the few longer races I like to participate in, so it was no big deal to me. I am sure there are early 473 owners right now sailing on those OEM NP sails. for my performance needs, the OEM sails were not where I needed to be in order to be competitive in my class. racing, as you are well aware of I am sure, does and always will require your gear to be a much higher quality than your average cruiser will need. that is a decision each owner will make as time goes on for their type of sailing.

is there an advantage to building a sail with a higher quality cloth......absolutely there is and I took advantage of that when having my new sails built, but that is not what anyone should expect from an OEM sail on a production line boat. I certainly did not. I don't think most Beneteau owners have a problem with the NP OEM sails that came new on their boats until several seasons into their sailing. then they realize the shape may have gone away.

Rick Donovan 

Biddeford, Maine

[Eugene Kharlamb]

Sails have sales too. 

 

We have Doyle sails near us.  We have a good relationship with them over the years. They wash, store and fix out sails.  When we needed a new Jib we got a good discount and a personalized attention from an expert.   We though we were happy.

 

Then summer came and their business was slow.. They knew our main was getting old.. so they offered us a brand new main at 50% discount.  Now I know I am happy.

 

Not sure how much OEM costs nor what quality they are... but I am sure that I will never have to find out.

------ Original Message ------
Received: 03:48 PM EDT, 08/07/2012
From: "Kidd, James" <jk...@kaydon.com>
To: "benetea...@googlegroups.com" <benetea...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: RE: {Beneteau Owners} Sail Life

Thank you, Rick. Well said.

 

James A. Kidd

Adventure Galley B 473

Office / Cell: 617-448-2575

jk...@Kaydon.com

From: benetea...@googlegroups.com [mailto:benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Rick Donovan
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 3:42 PM
To: benetea...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {Beneteau Owners} Sail Life

 

 

On Aug 7, 2012, at 2:49 PM, Bruce Bates wrote:

Have you taken over speaking for this group?

 

Bruce,

Ivars has been our go to guy for technical sail questions for many years. from my time on this list he has given nothing but accurate and reliable answers to anyone requesting information on sail adjustments, rig settings, new sail designs, cost vs performance etc. I have not one time read anything from him that seemed to be aimed at pumping his place of employment. his information has been spot on from the experience I have with 25 years of sailing offshore, cruising and racing. as a matter of fact, although I believe he is employed in the sail making business, I have no idea where he hangs his hat each day. I believe we are lucky to have him to bounce Ideas off of. 

 

if you also have similar technical skills, then by all means possible I welcome your participation in this discussion on the forum. 

 

I am not sure how this got cranked up to the volume that it did, but there is no need for any of us to get that bothered by someone else's opinion. this is highly unusual for this forum and we just don't need that sort of controversy. everyone is entitled to their opinion, but we need to be respectable when voicing that opinion. I reply on subjects that I think I can offer some hard earned experience but I never get to excited if someone doesn't agree with my views and you should not either. life is much too short to worry about such foolishness. I suggest that we all state our case on a topic and let the original poster then decide what to do from there. 

 

Rick Donovan

Biddeford, Maine

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[Ivars]

Doyle is a good loft, they  turn out good sails.    When they offer a 50% discount  and are not taking a loss,  how large is their normal profit or are they messing with their retail price 

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From: benetea...@googlegroups.com [mailto:benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Eugene Kharlamb
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 7:27 PM
To: benetea...@googlegroups.com

[George P]

The main sail I have on my 473 is a year old and is OEM NP.  I have to admit I think it's a very good quality and very well built.  Also, it fits perfectly.

OEM or not, I just can't see a sailmaker making a better cruising sail....perhaps a 3rd reef that I could always add.  With regards to shape, it's been a year and still looks great. Now if only I could figure a way to switch out the crappy halyard sheaves with out pulling the mast.  They truly suck!  As soon as there is a serious load on them they stop working.

George P

[Rick Itenson]

On Friday, July 27, 2012 4:31:07 PM UTC-4, DancingDays wrote:

Hi,

For those who bought a Beneteau cruising model new long enough ago for it to matter: How long did you sails last?

I have a 2004 393 bought new in 2004.  The OEM Neil Pryde sails were crap.  The UV started coming off the genoa in the first season.  The boat is sailed 6 months a year mainly in the Bahamas.  I have just ordered new sails from Mack Sails in Florida.  I should have done it about four years ago!  The furling  main is very baggy so I have to furl it very carefully, in addition, last season the leech line wore through nearly the whole length of the leech.  When I talked to NP about the UV on the genoa in 2005 they, in effect, said it was a cheap sail and they could do nothing about the UV coming off like bad paint.  That is why I do not deal with NP anymore.  I realize that OEM sails are built to a price point but still the UV (it was like a coating rather than a strip) should not come off like that.  New sails in November. :)

[Kidd, James]

Its all directly related to

1)      How much were they used and under what conditions?

2)      The sun in the south is much more damaging than the sun in Maine per se….so where was the UV exposure?

3)      Were the sails removed at the end of the season? How long were they on the boat per season?

 

There is no one answer to your question that fits all.

 

My 2004 B 473 OEM sails are fine. The NP loft inspected them and said they aren’t anywhere close to needing replacement.

As my boat was in Annapolis, the UV cover was a bit crappy, so it was fixed.

It would not have been so bad up here in New England….

 

James A. Kidd

Adventure Galley B 473

jk...@Kaydon.com

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