Engine hours meter and stop engine solenoid - Perkins Prima (M50)

[Oceanis 440 NY]

Good Tidings All,

Finally getting close to launch and planning for much needed engine maintenance and have been researching an overhaul of this engine. Not as daunting as I first thought. 

Of the the more minor issues here are two less frequent topics I am hoping for some  insight on from the group. 

Engine stop solenoid - the stop button at the helm works intermittently, usually not at all but I try in vain, and have to pull the fuel kill switch at the helm. I think it is due to the proximity of the solenoid and wiring on the engine to the raw water intake and filter. 

Has anyone encountered, fixed? Not easy to apply the wiring diagram to the engine (but I'm learning, slowly) and isolating the connection. 

Hour meter - the tach works but the hour meter stopped. thinking it may be a buildup, it stopped working after 1727 hours. I think there is another 1700 hours on the engine. same thing on wiring/connections.

Thank you,

Jon

S/V

Just Chi-Ky

[DAVID FLETCHER]

As to the tach it is a common problem. The VDO used by PERKINS is an unique set up. Easy to remove. It has plastic lugs which hold into the instrument panel. A quarter term from below and it comes out from the back side. I have a document from PERKINS if you need it. 

Nichols Speedometer and Instruments in Greensboro NC fixed mine. Ask for Jacob. About 80 dollars to repair. 

Does the stop glow when the engine is running?  It should. If not then there is no power I. The circuit. If not start following the circuit. It is a simple 12 solenoid that pulls the fuel pump stop. Stand there and see if it operates. Get out your multimeter and get at it. 


David 

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 28, 2020, at 6:52 AM, Oceanis 440 NY <jsch...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Jon Schultz]

Thanks Fletch. As always you are a tremendous resource. If you have documentation, I’ll take it. 

As I last recall the stop button does glow. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 28, 2020, at 7:41 AM, DAVID FLETCHER <davidcf...@rogers.com> wrote:

As to the tach it is a common problem. The VDO used by PERKINS is an unique set up. Easy to remove. It has plastic lugs which hold into the instrument panel. A quarter term from below and it comes out from the back side. I have a document from PERKINS if you need it. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/beneteau-owners/FA29CF8A-4BDD-40AA-9DDA-C34F9CA591D0%40rogers.com.

[DAVID FLETCHER]

Then see if there is power at the solenoid switch at the fuel pump. I am not sure if the completed circuit moves it to stop the engine. I suspect so. Either way there has to be power in one of the modes. 

If not then move up to the switch. 

I thought I send you the wiring diagram. If not left me know. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 28, 2020, at 10:23 AM, Jon Schultz <jsch...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks Fletch. As always you are a tremendous resource. If you have documentation, I’ll take it. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/beneteau-owners/974A72C8-AF6A-43A4-BACD-E80C212DA427%40gmail.com.

[DAVID FLETCHER]

As to the tach there is a small plastic gear that fails. Mine failed at 1800 hrs. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 28, 2020, at 10:23 AM, Jon Schultz <jsch...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks Fletch. As always you are a tremendous resource. If you have documentation, I’ll take it. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/beneteau-owners/974A72C8-AF6A-43A4-BACD-E80C212DA427%40gmail.com.

[DAVID FLETCHER]

[Jon Schultz]

Thanks Fletch! 

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 28, 2020, at 3:27 PM, DAVID FLETCHER <davidcf...@rogers.com> wrote:



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<perkins tach.pdf>

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[DAVID FLETCHER]

Jon

I went over the electrical wiring and forgot tell you to check the relay which is at the back or the engine. 

There are three relays mounted on a plate above the transmission at the rear of the engine. Btw the mounts for the plate often fail and the plate dangles for the wiring😓   

They are 6 or 8 mm stand offs. Use lock tight. Don’t use self lock nuts. Don’t ask why I know. 

One controls the stater. One the flow plugs and the other the stop switch. 

You can see the wire colours on the drawing. 

The. Switch on the dash supply’s 12 to the relay which supplies a heavier current 12 volts to the fuel pump solenoid. 

The relay can give trouble. I had two extras on board. I never used one. They are Lucas. Take the number off the relay. Lot cheaper on eBay or the Internet than PERKINS. 

Your half way there now.   

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 28, 2020, at 7:12 PM, Jon Schultz <jsch...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks Fletch! 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/beneteau-owners/52E80755-17FE-459C-81CD-AD9EC768DC22%40gmail.com.

[dan....@bigpond.com]

Jon,

 

The hour meter is a common problem on these, I’ve had mine repaired 3 times. Some plastic gears break apparently.

 

Regarding the stop solenoid, I had exactly the same problem and after many years of head scratching, it was at the back of the instrument panel. Remove the instrument panel mounting screws, lift the panel. Look at the back of the panel and locate the ‘engine stop’ button. Gently push in the back of the button. Problem solved.

 

Regards,
Dan

--

[dan....@bigpond.com]

Jon,

 

One other thing regarding your question, I’ve attached the wiring diagram for the engine. Excuse my scribbles on it.

 

Someone else has mentioned the three relays at the back of the engine. They are

 

1. Engine start relay,
2. Glow plugs relay and
3. Negative earth relay.

 

All three relays are depicted in the wiring diagram. The relay that plays a part in energising the engine stop solenoid is the ‘negative earth’ relay.

 

Perkins Prima engines are designed not to have the engine block permanently connected to DC negative because of electrolysis. There are however two things on the engine which rely on the engine block as the DC negative connection: the glow plugs and the engine stop solenoid, they are all screwed into the engine block. Now if the engine block is not connected to the DC negative, those two can not work, right? To overcome this problem, they have provided the ‘negative earth’ relay, which connects the DC negative to the engine block, but only for the duration of the relay being energised. So, when you push the ‘glow plugs’ button, or the ‘engine stop’ button, not only does the DC positive get connected to the relevant device(s), the ‘negative earth’ relay ensures that the engine block is connected to the DC negative until you release the button. If this relay were to malfunction, you would lose both the glow plugs and the engine shut off solenoid.

 

After pulling my hair out for years and tracing this annoying intermittent engine stop problem, one day I was looking at the tach because the hour meter had stopped working. While I had the engine panel out, I checked the firmness of the wire connections to the back of various push buttons and lights by gently pushing them in. I noticed that in the case of the engine stop button, the back went in by a good couple of mm. The penny dropped – over the years of movement and vibrations, the back of the button moved slightly and pushing the button from the outside would sometimes not make electrical contact. I never had the engine stop button problem again. Hopefully, this will sort your problem out.

 

Best regards,
Dan

 

 

From: benetea...@googlegroups.com <benetea...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Oceanis 440 NY
Sent: Tuesday, 28 April 2020 18:52
To: Beneteau Owners <benetea...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Engine hours meter and stop engine solenoid - Perkins Prima (M50)

 

Good Tidings All,

--

[Jon Schultz]

Hi Dan,

Wow. Truly appreciate the detailed information. Thank you. 

Sounds like you know this engine well, available for a timing belt change?

In all seriousness, I will most certainly investigate the panel before getting into replacing any relays or solenoids. 

I am rewiring the instrument pod at the helm (sorry Bill) and I'll add that to the list, 

and have some clear direction  on solving this one. 

This is such a great community and an invaluable resource, thank you and the community at large for sharing your knowledge. 

Who knows how much a yard/mechanic would charge to trace these types of issues? (asked rhetorically)

Looking forward to the next topic!

Best,

Jon

On Apr 28, 2020, at 10:56 PM, dan....@bigpond.com wrote:



To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/beneteau-owners/006701d61dd1%24d2d67a10%2478836e30%24%40bigpond.com.

<PerkinsPrimaWiring.PDF>

[Oceanis 440 NY]

Good Tidings Again,

Got a chance to look at the relays (she's going in today/tomorrow) but can't upload the pic. 2 of the 3 are connected to the engine block on the mounting bracket. 1 is dangling below. I will try later to send. I also noticed 2 connections not connected elsewhere and not sure yet of their importance. I will send pics when I am able. Would appreciate any feedback. 

Jon



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[Jeremy Young]

I have a perkins prima M50 and I've never had an issue with that. My raw water intake is nowhere near my engine stop solenoid. My engine stop solenoid is near the front of the engine, above the alternator near the fuel pump. My raw water intake on the engine (the raw water strainer is mounted vertically on a bulkhead aft and port of the engine). I'm not sure what you mean by the solenoid being near raw water, mine is nowhere near it. I'm pretty familiar with all this as I just re-did the incoming fuel line last year, moved the racor along with it.

That said, I don't find the wiring on my Perkins to be particularly good, or done with quality materials. The hours/RPM feed into the engine panel was non-functional for a long time until I found that there is a cluster of relays and wires that is "clipped" to the rear of the engine in a haphazard manner. The wire that feeds the hours/RPM meter had vibrated itself into a complete disconnect at this cluster of wires. I had to pull that cluster apart and strip back the wire to correct this problem.

Is it this cluster of wires and relays near the back of the engine that you're worried about, because that is near the raw water intake.

----- Jeremy

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[Oceanis 440 NY]

Hi Jeremy,

I'd agree with your assessment, wiring is not the best. 

In my set up, the through hull/sea cock  for the raw water intake is at the bottom of the companionway under an access board. It feeds into the raw water filter located in the front of the engine/port side which then feeds to the impeller, which is in the rear of the engine. The raw water filter is on the same side as the stop solenoid and in my research I saw one person had such an issue (perhaps because the raw water filter is near it had an affect). I think the issue may be at the button or the relays.  The attached you can see the intake tube and the relays you mentioned. One relay is dangling so I don't think that is correct. There are a one or two wires that seem to have lost their place too.

More to come...

On Monday, May 4, 2020 at 7:39:32 PM UTC-4, JeremySoCal wrote:

I have a perkins prima M50 and I've never had an issue with that. My raw water intake is nowhere near my engine stop solenoid. My engine stop solenoid is near the front of the engine, above the alternator near the fuel pump. My raw water intake on the engine (the raw water strainer is mounted vertically on a bulkhead aft and port of the engine). I'm not sure what you mean by the solenoid being near raw water, mine is nowhere near it. I'm pretty familiar with all this as I just re-did the incoming fuel line last year, moved the racor along with it.

That said, I don't find the wiring on my Perkins to be particularly good, or done with quality materials. The hours/RPM feed into the engine panel was non-functional for a long time until I found that there is a cluster of relays and wires that is "clipped" to the rear of the engine in a haphazard manner. The wire that feeds the hours/RPM meter had vibrated itself into a complete disconnect at this cluster of wires. I had to pull that cluster apart and strip back the wire to correct this problem.

Is it this cluster of wires and relays near the back of the engine that you're worried about, because that is near the raw water intake.

----- Jeremy

On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 3:52 AM Oceanis 440 NY <jsch...@gmail.com> wrote:

Good Tidings All,

Finally getting close to launch and planning for much needed engine maintenance and have been researching an overhaul of this engine. Not as daunting as I first thought. 

Of the the more minor issues here are two less frequent topics I am hoping for some  insight on from the group. 

Engine stop solenoid - the stop button at the helm works intermittently, usually not at all but I try in vain, and have to pull the fuel kill switch at the helm. I think it is due to the proximity of the solenoid and wiring on the engine to the raw water intake and filter. 

Has anyone encountered, fixed? Not easy to apply the wiring diagram to the engine (but I'm learning, slowly) and isolating the connection. 

Hour meter - the tach works but the hour meter stopped. thinking it may be a buildup, it stopped working after 1727 hours. I think there is another 1700 hours on the engine. same thing on wiring/connections.

Thank you,

Jon

S/V

Just Chi-Ky

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[dan....@bigpond.com]

Hi Jon,

 

The relays literally just ‘clip on’ the support bracket. One of yours may have vibrated off, or may have been pushed loose. In my case, the whole support bracket came down a few years ago when the rubber stand-offs failed, but that was easily fixed. The stand-offs are available in various sizes and softness at RS Components for a few dollars.

 

Regarding the unconnected wires, they can be anything. As a possibility though, in the area near the primary Racor fuel filter (port aft of the engine), Beneteau at the time offered (as an option) a water sensor, which would screw into the Racor fuel filter bowl. On my boat (which did not come with this option installed), I found unused wires in that area for that purpose, which location and colours lined up with the electrical schematic I sent you before. Yes, that option is depicted on the schematic. If water is detected in the fuel filter bowl above a certain level, an alarm light goes off on the Perkins engine panel in the cockpit. Since as I said, I didn’t have this option installed, this light was unused on my engine panel. When I installed Balmar MC-614 external alternator regulator, I used this wiring and the engine panel light to wire up the regulator ‘dash lamp’ output, indicating additional states of the regulator. Now the symbol on the light is wrong (water in fuel), but it is quite useful in monitoring the alternator output as the batteries get charged. The light has also helped me understand and observe a major flaw in Balmar small and medium alternator design, but more about that at some other time if there is interest.

 

Best regards,

Dan

 

From: benetea...@googlegroups.com <benetea...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Oceanis 440 NY

Sent: Tuesday, 5 May 2020 9:53
To: Beneteau Owners <benetea...@googlegroups.com>

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[Jeremy Young]

Ok, that makes more sense based on your description.  But I would still, just based on your pictures and what my engine looks like back by that wiring and relays, suspect that cluster of wiring with the dangling relays more than anything else. Especially if you've been careful with keeping the raw water sealed.

Looking at your pictures, that's about where my relays are basically just horribly zip-tied to the engine block itself,mostly dangling. I really don't understand what went through anyone's mind to think that securing wiring or relays to the engine block was a better idea than a longer wire to attach to a bulkhead. There's enough clutter in most engine compartments that I don't want to have to deal with relays getting oily, mangled, or just vibrated into uselessness.  They kind of added insult to injury too, the wire they used on mine was untinned copper. When I saw that I realized the oily nature of the engine compartment was likely the only thing that prevented the wiring from corroding out. 

I'm figuring on re-wiring the entire engine in the next year or so, and I'm really not looking forward to trying to figure out the layout, but it needs to be done. I already did most of the DC system just the past week, so the engine can't be too bad. Though I do want to get an entirely new engine panel and move it to the binnacle because Beneteau for some reason thought an engine panel behind your ankles while you're at the wheel was a good idea.

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