Taking forward threads of discussion around young people and UKGovWeb

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Tim Davies

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Feb 2, 2008, 1:28:46 PM2/2/08
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Hello all

There were a lot of interesting threads of conversation taking place
at the Barcamp around how government provides information for young
people online, and how government engages with young people online.
(In this context young people = age < 19. )

(Mindmap of what I picked up here:
http://www.timdavies.org.uk/2008/01/26/government-and-young-people-online)

I've just been approached by a number of local government providers of
information websites for young people interested in forming a network.

And in my wider work I'm currently coming across a lot of dispersed
individuals and groups trying to explore how both local authority and
voluntary sector groups working with young people should respond to
new technologies, social networking sites, digital media etc.

Which has got me thinking about whether some form of
'BarCampYouthOnline' might be worth exploring to take threads forward
from BarCampUKGovWeb, and to bring in some of those other threads
around young people online.

I'd certainly be willing to put some work into pulling that together
if there were people interested.

What do you think?

Would anyone else be interested in helping explore that more?

Tim

James Darling

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Feb 2, 2008, 6:00:37 PM2/2/08
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> There were a lot of interesting threads of conversation taking place
> at the Barcamp around how government provides information for young
> people online, and how government engages with young people online.
> (In this context young people = age < 19. )

I somehow missed out on those conversations, probably my lie in. As
I'm hanging onto my last few weeks of teenagedom myself (I say I'm
about to hit twenteen), I'd definitely be interested in this, and will
probably have some views :-)

Add my name to any lists,
James

Dan Morris

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Feb 2, 2008, 7:15:20 PM2/2/08
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> Would anyone else be interested in helping explore that more?

Hi, James put me onto this thread..

In my work at BBC Switch (http://bbc.co.uk/switch), what you've
talked about above is relevant to the projects my team undertakes, and
how we choose what approaches to take, or don't take.

The BBC have an extensive set of rules and best-practices for handling
the personal information of children, and young people, as well as
developing web services for them. Since our conception last july,
we've been working to define and adapt this for the more web-active
teenager age-range.

Bebo I would say was the most aware of such issues, and I personally
would love to see the guys there attend an event like this.

Anyway. I'd love to come along, and hope that I could provide an
interesting talk or two!

I did a talk at barcamp brighton a while back on teenagers and the
web. It really seems most web developers are blind to the age group.

Cheers,
-dan

Jeremygould

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Feb 3, 2008, 6:16:18 AM2/3/08
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James / Dan, this is something worth floating with Public Sector
Forums who have a good readership amongst local authority web people.
They've also sponsored the creation of a web group for public sector
web practitioners.

Em

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Feb 3, 2008, 2:59:16 PM2/3/08
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We should also probably include the Young People franchise on
Directgov! Tony Singleton is a part of thie group and I shall point
him to this thread. Hello, boy wonder :)
> > -dan- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Tim Davies

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Feb 4, 2008, 4:16:55 AM2/4/08
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Dan/James - would be great to have your input.

I'll work on some more plans in the next few days and hopefully start
getting a sense of wider interest and whether the barcamp model, or
some related model will serve best for this one, and what sort of
timescale we might be looking at to get something taking place (all
suggestions welcome...)

Tim

ShaneMcC

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Feb 4, 2008, 4:55:10 AM2/4/08
to BarcampUKGovweb
Jeremy, Just a word of caution about PSF. It isn't exactly the open
public private conversation that we've achieved through BarCamp.
Without a .gov.uk email address you are effectively excluded.
Although I'm sure Ian will provide access to us .com and .co.uk ers if
we ask nicely. Ian?

Shane

On Feb 3, 11:16 am, Jeremygould <jeremygo...@gmail.com> wrote:

ShaneMcC

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Feb 4, 2008, 4:56:10 AM2/4/08
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Hi Tim,

I'd be up for helping out on that.

Shane

On Feb 2, 6:28 pm, Tim Davies <tim.g.dav...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello all
>
> There were a lot of interesting threads of conversation taking place
> at the Barcamp around how government provides information for young
> people online, and how government engages with young people online.
> (In this context young people = age < 19. )
>
> (Mindmap of what I picked up here:http://www.timdavies.org.uk/2008/01/26/government-and-young-people-on...)

Feargal Hogan

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Feb 4, 2008, 5:25:26 AM2/4/08
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Me too.

If I get a moment I'll try to comment on the mindmap also.
Feargal

Jeremy Gould

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Feb 4, 2008, 5:47:03 AM2/4/08
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Re: PSF I was thinking that it is a good channel to get the message out, not a place to centre the discussion.

Ian Dunmore

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Feb 4, 2008, 5:53:46 AM2/4/08
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You could think about developing up the existing Public Sector Web Management Group site - www.pswmg.ork.uk and, obviously, whenever appropriate, I have no problem pushing stuff out to the wider PSF network as Jeremy says then directing people back to wherever the discussion ends up happening.
 
Ian
 
 


From: Barcamp...@googlegroups.com [mailto:Barcamp...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jeremy Gould
Sent: 04 February 2008 10:47
To: Barcamp...@googlegroups.com

Em

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Feb 4, 2008, 8:52:23 AM2/4/08
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I second this as a good idea!

On Feb 4, 10:53 am, "Ian Dunmore" <I...@publicsectorforums.co.uk>
wrote:
> You could think about developing up the existing Public Sector Web
> Management Group site -www.pswmg.ork.ukand, obviously, whenever
> appropriate, I have no problem pushing stuff out to the wider PSF
> network as Jeremy says then directing people back to wherever the
> discussion ends up happening.
>
> Ian
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Barcamp...@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:Barcamp...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jeremy Gould
> Sent: 04 February 2008 10:47
> To: Barcamp...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [BarcampUKGovweb] Re: Taking forward threads of discussion
> around young people and UKGovWeb
>
> Re: PSF I was thinking that it is a good channel to get the message out,
> not a place to centre the discussion.
>
> On Feb 4, 2008 10:25 AM, Feargal Hogan <fear...@thehoganfamily.info>
>         > > Tim- Hide quoted text -

noel....@googlemail.com

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Feb 4, 2008, 9:54:51 AM2/4/08
to BarcampUKGovweb
I would be interested, we are doing work at Kent CC Innovation Unit on
training for staff on social media & developing a toolkit around it,
but we are also planning to do the same with groups we're working
with, which includes young people

On Feb 2, 6:28 pm, Tim Davies <tim.g.dav...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello all
>
> There were a lot of interesting threads of conversation taking place
> at the Barcamp around how government provides information for young
> people online, and how government engages with young people online.
> (In this context young people = age < 19. )
>
> (Mindmap of what I picked up here:http://www.timdavies.org.uk/2008/01/26/government-and-young-people-on...)

Ian Dunmore

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Feb 4, 2008, 1:48:43 PM2/4/08
to Barcamp...@googlegroups.com
Interesting post on the PSF Noticeboard this afternoon which doubtless some
people will have thoughts upon. It reads:

'I suspect other's may have come across this one which is very tricky...
I've been asked by a couple of people in my council if they can use the
likes of Bebo and Facebook to add a group to, to encourage young people to
engage with the council. Firstly, it's Libraries and secondly our youth
people who want to promote a youth portal that is being developed.

My gut reaction is not to touch these with a barge pole. Personally, I think
they are great but are they correct for Council's to go on?

Anyone else has experience of their council linking with the likes of
Facebook, Bebo, MySpace etc? If so how have you handled the 'issues' that
come with this?

Any help appreciated as usual.'


----- Original Message -----
From: <noel....@googlemail.com>
To: "BarcampUKGovweb" <Barcamp...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 2:54 PM
Subject: [BarcampUKGovweb] Re: Taking forward threads of discussion around
young people and UKGovWeb


>

Em

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Feb 4, 2008, 4:44:18 PM2/4/08
to BarcampUKGovweb
Well, we are looking at the use of fan pages - nod of thanks to Justin
KS for pointing us in the right direction. I think that if you embrace
social media then you embrace the idea of going to Mohammed, and
therefore stopping being a mountain. So, I disagree with your shudder
over engaging in these forums, but they have to be managed. A fan page
will enable the moderator of the group to filter people within the
council boundaries - yes, people can lie and get through but... why
would they? - then the council will need someone to moderate the group
to ensure that a conversation was taking place. The biggest danger
here would be to open up a conversation/dialogue with those who live
within the borough, and not responding, that stony silence would echo
far more on the web than it would in real life.

My own thoughts, of course...

I will post this on PSF when I have two mins... but you could always
shove it there for me, Ian :) - am having working hell night

Any way we could feed in discussions like this to PSF without having
to log in and repost our wiseness?

E



On Feb 4, 6:48 pm, "Ian Dunmore" <i...@publicsectorforums.co.uk>
wrote:

Dave Briggs

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Feb 4, 2008, 5:47:44 PM2/4/08
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On 2/4/08, Ian Dunmore <i...@publicsectorforums.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Anyone else has experience of their council linking with the likes of
> Facebook, Bebo, MySpace etc? If so how have you handled the 'issues' that
> come with this?

I'd be interested to know what the issues are, to start with. There
are masses of good reasons for engaging with these platforms, for
example the fact that they are already being used by the young people
in question, and we aren't asking them to sign up for some new,
Council (or otherwise) sponsored affair that is bound to be considered
naff.

One of the only problems I can think of is the fact that half the
public sector workers in the country are banned from social networks
during the working day, thus rendering the use of them for engagement
purposes pretty negligible.

Dave

--
Dave Briggs
d...@davepress.net | http://davepress.net | 020 8133 8008 (Skype) 07516
450209 (Mobile)

James Darling

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Feb 4, 2008, 6:02:33 PM2/4/08
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> I'd be interested to know what the issues are, to start with.

There are plenty of issues, many stemming from the fact that these are
propriety platforms.
This is why it's important to make sure these are in addition to, not
a replacement to, other effective means to communication, and that
that is made clear.

It is also important to make sure anyone involved has an understanding
of the social platform being used, from the technical restrictions to
the social etiquette. Yes, this means all that time on facebook pays
off.

The use of social networks is clearly going to be central to the
discussion here, and there seems to be interest from people on all
sides of the table, from the users, to the public sector implementors,
to the social network guys themselves.

Let's meet :-)
Hey, even if it's in a cafe somewhere, I'm sure all will benefit.

James

Jeremygould

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Feb 4, 2008, 6:21:56 PM2/4/08
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Paul Canning at Cambridgeshire County Council would be worth speaking to about this. He's done some work in these spaces on engaging with young people. His blog is: http://paulcanning.blogspot.com/

Jeremygould

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Feb 4, 2008, 6:29:22 PM2/4/08
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Paul Canning at Cambridgeshire County Council would be worth speaking
to about this. He's done some work in these spaces on engaging with
young people. His blog is:

On 4 Feb 2008, at 22:47, Dave Briggs wrote:

Michelle

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Feb 5, 2008, 6:52:15 AM2/5/08
to BarcampUKGovweb
An example of an MP who is using social media to engage his
constituents, including a large number of young people, is Steve Webb.
Check out his site for all his social media activities http://www.stevewebb.org.uk/

Michelle

Michelle

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Feb 5, 2008, 7:20:12 AM2/5/08
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Tim,

I would be happy to help out with this piece of work.

I have some experience with working with organisations whose primary
interest is to improve interaction between government and young people
by improving access to, and exchange of, information using the web.

Michelle

On 2 Feb, 18:28, Tim Davies <tim.g.dav...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello all
>
> There were a lot of interesting threads of conversation taking place
> at the Barcamp around how government provides information for young
> people online, and how government engages with young people online.
> (In this context young people = age < 19. )
>
> (Mindmap of what I picked up here:http://www.timdavies.org.uk/2008/01/26/government-and-young-people-on...)

Tim Davies

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Feb 5, 2008, 9:55:04 AM2/5/08
to BarcampUKGovweb
Thanks all for the discussions.

Seeing the response here - I'm really keen to take forward the idea of
a BarCamp / Open Space event on 'youth online' with (I think...) a
focus on issues for:

* Those providing online information to young people
* Those working on online civic engagement
* Those working on digital media literacy and internet education
* Those working directly with young people to support their personal
and social development
* Those exploring, in particular, how young people interact with
social networking sites
* Young people involved in web based projects

To move that forward, three key practical questions:

# What do you think of the description / focus above? Does it need
tightening up / leaving open?

I'm aware that this needs to appeal not just to a techie crowd - but
also to the web managers / project workers / researchers who are key
to moving forward thinking in this area.

#When should a gathering take place?
- I'm presuming a Saturday again?
- I'm thinking April, May or June. Any particular things to tie in
with?

#Should we go for a BarCamp model - or is some other model better for
the potential participants?

I'm happy to take forward the first stage of getting some sort of wiki
(either on BarCamp.org or elsewhere) set up - and then throwing this
open to all - or if anyone else is keen to take a core role at this
early stage - just let me know... :)

Tim

>

On Feb 5, 12:20 pm, Michelle <michelle.ly...@justice.gsi.gov.uk>
wrote:

fea...@thehoganfamily.info

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Feb 5, 2008, 10:15:18 AM2/5/08
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Tim
See inline

>
> # What do you think of the description / focus above? Does it need
> tightening up / leaving open?

Leave open at present. Add to above rather than tighten it.


>
> I'm aware that this needs to appeal not just to a techie crowd - but
> also to the web managers / project workers / researchers who are key
> to moving forward thinking in this area.

Well, as much of the government seems to be listening here, wouldn't it be
good to involve the DCSF. Problem is, I don't think THEY are listening here.


>
> #When should a gathering take place?
> - I'm presuming a Saturday again?

Sounds good.

> - I'm thinking April, May or June. Any particular things to tie in
> with?
>
> #Should we go for a BarCamp model - or is some other model better for
> the potential participants?

Do you mean a real Barcamp or a Jeremy version? ;) (sorry Jeremy - pax?)

I suggest Barcamp

> I'm happy to take forward the first stage of getting some sort of wiki
> (either on BarCamp.org or elsewhere) set up - and then throwing this
> open to all - or if anyone else is keen to take a core role at this
> early stage - just let me know... :)

Good on ya!

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Adam McGreggor

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Feb 5, 2008, 10:20:34 AM2/5/08
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On Tue, Feb 05, 2008 at 06:55:04AM -0800, Tim Davies wrote:
>
> Thanks all for the discussions.
>
> Seeing the response here - I'm really keen to take forward the idea of
> a BarCamp / Open Space event on 'youth online' with (I think...) a
> focus on issues for:
>
> * Those providing online information to young people
> * Those working on online civic engagement

And youth campaigns?

> * Those working on digital media literacy and internet education

Perhaps adding in "interacting/co-existing with (M|V))LEs"?
(assuming "youth" to be those upto ~17)

> * Those working directly with young people to support their personal
> and social development
> * Those exploring, in particular, how young people interact with
> social networking sites
> * Young people involved in web based projects
>
> To move that forward, three key practical questions:
>
> # What do you think of the description / focus above? Does it need
> tightening up / leaving open?

Sort-of useful, but might be better off to wait and see who can cover
topics: the good thing about a 'real' Barcamp, where people do just come
together and talk/present/brainfart.

> I'm aware that this needs to appeal not just to a techie crowd - but
> also to the web managers / project workers / researchers who are key
> to moving forward thinking in this area.

And to some extent, I'd suggest, educationalists and educators.

> #When should a gathering take place?
> - I'm presuming a Saturday again?
> - I'm thinking April, May or June. Any particular things to tie in
> with?

have a shufty of upcoming :)

> #Should we go for a BarCamp model - or is some other model better for
> the potential participants?

depends on who's interested, I'd say. Might be worth getting an
indication of interest in the principle, and then taking it from there.

Justin

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Feb 5, 2008, 10:25:10 AM2/5/08
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> One of the only problems I can think of is the fact that half the
> public sector workers in the country are banned from social networks
> during the working day, thus rendering the use of them for engagement
> purposes pretty negligible.

I don't think this is nearly as big a problem as it appears - and
there remain a number of public sector orgs that still have access to
social networking platforms... they just don't publicise the fact!

Tim Davies

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Feb 5, 2008, 12:17:30 PM2/5/08
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> I'd be interested to know what the issues are, to start with. There
> are masses of good reasons for engaging with these platforms, for
> example the fact that they are already being used by the young people
> in question, and we aren't asking them to sign up for some new,
> Council (or otherwise) sponsored affair that is bound to be considered
> naff.

I think the biggest issue is unfamiliarity. But that doesn't mean
there aren't issues hidden by that.

I've just put together a quick blog post over here:
http://www.timdavies.org.uk/2008/02/05/should-local-authorities-be-myspace-or-facebook
to explore whether a couple of thought experiments can get us a bit
deeper into identifying the opportunities and threats of engagement on
SNS for local authorities.

On thing worth considering is that LAs are not always good to going to
the physical spaces where young people are already engaged and using
existing structures to engage young people there - so it's both a
platform shift, and in many cases a culture shift, to engage through
SNS. (But a good culture shift that should be encouraged and fostered
I think...).

Tim

Em

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Feb 5, 2008, 3:35:36 PM2/5/08
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Am declaring myself out of this thread of discussion as is not
something that I know too much about, but if anyone would like me to
do anything - yell. I have pointed Directgov to here

E
> > 450209 (Mobile)- Hide quoted text -

Justin

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Feb 5, 2008, 4:43:10 PM2/5/08
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Feargal

I sent an email to DCSF this afternoon - hopefully they'll be
listening in/particpating shortly.... will follow up if not.

JKS
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nickma...@googlemail.com

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Feb 6, 2008, 4:36:10 AM2/6/08
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Folks

Came across this provocative view on how to get young people to
participate... in this case, in sports.

Danish sports organisation chair, Soren Moller, who basically say the
big set pieces, such as focussing on elite sports does not encourage
participation. Instead its got to be a lot more social

Some choice cuts from it.
On engaging with 'yoof' generally... He insists new ways of thinking
must be found, and criticised the culture where adult reasoning is to,
"do as I did, and my father before me. And the kids say: F*** you.'
That's what they say, and go somewhere else. The point is that young
people are always right, because they are going to take over. You have
to respect young people and the signal from them . . . We change, or
we will just be history."

Interesting analogue between 'social sport' and 'social media'
"Despite success, fewer people play in Danish football tournaments.
They want social sport, with friends. Denmark has two recent Olympic
handball gold medals, and recently won the European title: "but
numbers are falling," said Moller. "There's great success among women
and men . . . but young people turn their back on it. There's a clear
political message: Elite success does not make young people do sport."

Full story at
http://www.theherald.co.uk./sport/headlines/display.var.2021403.0.Visionary_Dane_sounds_warning_for_Scottish_sports_minister.php

ShaneMcC

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Feb 6, 2008, 4:55:22 AM2/6/08
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Nice article Nick. Those Danes do make sense. It seems to me to be
about realistic goals motivating people. A long time ago I used to
work in Sales Promotion and the rule of thumb was that the more prizes
you offered the better the response, not the bigger the prize the more
the response. When people thought they had a better chance of winning
something they responded.

When that comes to (e)government it means realising that the small
things can be more motivating. Getting PlanningAlerts online, having
RSS feeds from councils, getting the postcode address file made
available are all small in comparison to "Transforming Government" but
they are the successes that motivate people.

If you only motivate people with the idea of being the next Wayne
Rooney or Linford Christie (check him on wikipedia if you weren't
watching the '92 Olympics) then you are dooming all but one of them to
failure and failure doesn't motivate.

Small successes.

On Feb 6, 9:36 am, "nickmacjo...@googlemail.com"
> Full story athttp://www.theherald.co.uk./sport/headlines/display.var.2021403.0.Vis...

Jeremygould

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Feb 6, 2008, 5:13:43 AM2/6/08
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That puts things into perspective. So perhaps we should come up with
a hit list between us of small things that government could do to
help others make greater use of our information, like common RSS
feeds for consultations for example.

If we could get everybody to adopt the same tagging, formatting etc
then somebody could make better use of our data in an aggregated
fashion - not just republishing but perhaps a better way of
responding to consultations and monitoring government decisions based
on consultation responses.

Just an idea, sure there are plenty more.

fea...@thehoganfamily.info

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Feb 6, 2008, 5:38:28 AM2/6/08
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There needs only be 2 rules, IMHO

Rule 1:
Everything published by government from now on should be published in
semantic open xml markup.

Rule 2:
Make sure that everyone follows Rule 1

If those 2 simple rules were adhered to, then everything else would pretty
much follow on.


But convincing the decision makers that enforcing those 2 rules would be a
good thing is going to be extremely difficult.

Certainly the DCSF are wont to publish lots of beautuflly produced
paper-based reports, guidance and initiatives. Most are available as PDF's.
But converting the data and text into semantic markup is no trivial task, so
production costs will increase at least in the short term. Which in turn
affects budgets. Which in turn affects initiatives. Which in turn affects
outcomes. Which will lead to much frontline resistance to such rules.

Because the books, pamphlets and reports will STILL need to be produced on
paper for the huge audience that exists for that.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Barcamp...@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:Barcamp...@googlegroups.com]On Behalf Of Jeremygould
> Sent: 06 February 2008 10:14
> To: Barcamp...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [BarcampUKGovweb] Re: Taking forward threads of discussion
> around young people and UKGovWeb
>
>
>

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Shipping Guides Ltd,
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Email: in...@portinfo.co.uk

Dave Briggs

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Feb 6, 2008, 5:58:03 AM2/6/08
to Barcamp...@googlegroups.com
I have put together a page on the wiki here:

http://www.govhack.com/YoungPeople

To track some of the links being posted, and for people to add their
names as being interested in this 'project'. Let's keep the discussion
going here, but record anything tangible on the wiki too for a public
record.

Dave

Jeremygould

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Feb 6, 2008, 6:38:38 AM2/6/08
to Barcamp...@googlegroups.com
I think most of us could agree that is a good point to get to. But we
need to start somewhere.

For the reasons you note and others (existing IT infrastructure /
contracts / arrangements / CMS) it wouldn't be so easy to implement.

Tim Davies

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Feb 11, 2008, 2:20:53 PM2/11/08
to BarcampUKGovweb
Thanks Dave :)

Well - in order to see if things can move forward - I've put up a
BarCampUKYouthOnline page at:

http://barcamp.org/BarCampUKYouthOnline

with a view to seeing if there is a viable BarCamp in this. Certainly
need a good way to pull together what are at the moment some quite
disparate threads of thinking, groups of people, and projects before
we can get much further forward.

I'll aim to get something more on the http://barcamp.org/BarCampUKYouthOnline
page, and some promotion of the idea done by the end of the week - but
all input very welcome - and keen to collaborate with others on taking
this forward...

Tim

On 6 Feb, 10:58, "Dave Briggs" <d...@change2.org> wrote:
> I have put together a page on the wiki here:
>
> http://www.govhack.com/YoungPeople
>
> To track some of the links being posted, and for people to add their
> names as being interested in this 'project'. Let's keep the discussion
> going here, but record anything tangible on the wiki too for a public
> record.
>
> Dave
>
> > Email: i...@portinfo.co.uk
> > WWW:http://www.portinfo.co.uk
> > Registered in England No. 907386
> > Registered Office: As above
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> > The information in this e-mail is confidential. It is intended for the use
> > of the addressee only. If you are not the addressee you must not use, copy
> > or disclose the information contained in it. Please contact us immediately
> > and delete the e-mail from your computer system and destroy any hard copies
> > you may have made.
>
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Shipping Guides Ltd,
> > 75 Bell St, Reigate, Surrey RH2 7AN, United Kingdom.
> > Tel: +44 1737 242255
> > Fax: +44 1737 222449
> > Email: i...@portinfo.co.uk

Justin

unread,
Feb 28, 2008, 6:01:12 PM2/28/08
to BarcampUKGovweb
Might be of interest?

http://www.web-strategist.com/blog/2008/02/28/my-facebook-profile-is-a-junkyard/

On 11 Feb, 19:20, Tim Davies <tim.g.dav...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks Dave :)
>
> Well - in order to see if things can move forward - I've put up a
> BarCampUKYouthOnline page at:
>
> http://barcamp.org/BarCampUKYouthOnline
>
> with a view to seeing if there is a viable BarCamp in this. Certainly
> need a good way to pull together what are at the moment some quite
> disparate threads of thinking, groups of people, and projects before
> we can get much further forward.
>
> I'll aim to get something more on thehttp://barcamp.org/BarCampUKYouthOnline
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