About Last Night - my g33k d1nner recap
heather...@gmail.com
at the Electric Lotus. The food was great, the tables were overflowing
with over 20 different dishes, our waiter Arthur kicked ass and there
was pie! Dave Bullock also took awesome photos! (Can't wait to see
them! I still owe you that drink.) There were 3 in attendance (other
than myself) from the original LA geek dinner: Crystal, Jory and Sam.
Yesterday I wrote a post collecting the geek events happening in SoCal
through the rest of the year. There are 15 events on the list and I
forgot to include LA Flash Stuff and CodeCamp. Two years ago, I could
not find one geek type event. Today, there is something happening
almost every week in all areas of the LA Metro Area. This is AWESOME
and a testament to our community.
But it's not all good. We have growing pains. Last night, those
growing pains came in the form of 20+ no shows to a $20 price fixed
dinner. They didn't update their RSVP or even email me to say they
weren't coming. (This doesn't include the two people who were
physically ill and contacted me. I had people waiting to attend and
people took your places.)
$20 x 20 = $400 to cover the no-shows. In addition, some people didn't
pay their bar tabs and/or didn't tip the waiter. The total additional
we had to cover was about $450!!!!!
Which we did it thanks to everyone chipping in additional $$ with
Sanjay and Bino covering the majority. CJ took care of the shirked
bartabs and tips. You guys totally rock!
But the situation did not rock. It showed a lack of responsibility and
was unfair to those who did show up by increasing the cost of the
dinner.
20+ people flaked on their commitment. Almost 50% of the RSVPs. Other
people didn't pay for what they consumed and the community had to
cover their ass. This is NOT ACCEPTABLE behavior for ADULTS! Instead
of unleashing my wrath (remember, I'm into guns, fire and unicorns) on
the no shows (many of whom I am friends with), I want to ask the
community, what should we do about this?
I have the names of everyone who RSVPed. I printed the closed list and
checked off everyone who showed up and paid. I know who flaked. Should
I -
1. Contact the noshows and ask them to paypal $21 ($20 + fee) to
pay back the people who covered their ass.
2. Publish the names and publicly humiliate the people who didn't
show up?
3. Take a chill pill and say, "It's just money."
4. Give me a better option
I try to make the geek dinners as accessible as possible by keeping
the cost down and as easy to attend. I organize this event without any
remuneration, using time from my billable hours (I'm independent and
don't have a corporate day job). I do this to build the community I
want to participate in.
Should I enforce pre-pay? Should we skip dinner and move this to a
drinking/bar environment? What can be done to make sure this doesn't
happen again? And please let me know what we should do about the no-
shows. I don't think it's fair that we had to come up with $450 to
cover their asses.
<3,
Heather
cross-posted from :
http://www.heathervescent.com/heathervescent/2007/09/about-last-nigh.html
and about to be widely cross-posted. and please feel free to cross-
post!
Lan Bui
boogah
> I have the names of everyone who RSVPed. I printed the closed list and
> checked off everyone who showed up and paid. I know who flaked. Should
> I -
> 1. Contact the noshows and ask them to paypal $21 ($20 + fee) to
> pay back the people who covered their ass.
> 2. Publish the names and publicly humiliate the people who didn't
> show up?
> 3. Take a chill pill and say, "It's just money."
> 4. Give me a better option
I say contact the no-shows and give them a chance to pay up. If they
don't by a set deadline - say Sunday - feel free to do what you will
to them. This way you give them a chance to own up to not changing
their RSVP status. Furthermore, the money needs to go back to the
people that covered the bill. I'm sure it will, but that really need
to be stressed.
Of course I say this because I changed my status from "coming" to "I'm sick."
As for what we do in the future, let's not try to do this fixed price
menu thing again. Although it is handy, people are left holding the
bag like they were last night. Somehow, it seemed a lot easier when
we said "cover your own meal" and left it at that. At least people
weren't out as much money then.
I know a few under 21 folks that show up to the dinners, so going to a
bar would cut them out of the community. Let's try to stay away from
that.
That's just my $0.02 tho.
-jason!
Rizwan Kassim
From: Rizwan Kassim <riz...@geekymedia.com>
Date: Sep 19, 2007 12:58 PM
Subject: Re: [BarCampLA] Re: About Last Night - my g33k d1nner recap
To: Barc...@googlegroups.com
To be honest, despite my annoyance at those who RSVPed but didn't
show, it's not fair to thrash them for not showing up this time. I
don't recall the upcoming invite letting them know that they'd be
responsible if they didn't show up, and the upcoming site didn't point
out the importance of holding to your RSVP.
The solution, in the end, for such an event might be just to have
everyone have their own check and not do buffet style dining. Too many
people aren't sure if they can come until the day of.
Rizwan
--
Rizwan Kassim
Software and Systems Engineer, uWink Interactive Bistro
http://www.geekymedia.com
"Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn
from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent
disinclination to do so." -Douglas Adams
--
Rizwan Kassim
Software and Systems Engineer, uWink Interactive Bistro
http://www.geekymedia.com
"Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn
from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent
disinclination to do so." -Douglas Adams
Burton Lo
You rock for doing what you did in response so far -- thanks just for that. I can't make Tuesday nights because of my daughter, even more so for events out of San Diego. That being said, here's my suggestion:
Seeing as how this is a relatively small community (and if it isn't, let's treat it as such), I'd contact those that RSVP'd who are not on this list and offer the chance to reconcile. If they don't reconcile, that makes clear how they handle business, at least to you.
Offering the benefit of the doubt to people who may still be learning social graces is a pretty cool benefit of Barcamp. One way or another, I expect this will resolve itself to be manageable.
I'm glad you shot a flare up so we could all see and resolve this together. It helps to bring us closer which, I think, is of immeasurable value.
Burt
p.s. I'd be happy to toss in a couple to spread the load if it comes to that.
JoAnna M
1. Contact the noshows and ask them to paypal $21 ($20 + fee) to pay back the people who covered their ass.
yes, duh.
2. Publish the names and publicly humiliate the people who didn't
show up?
Umm, didn't you just say "This is NOT ACCEPTABLE behavior for ADULTS!" Neither is that. Blowing off a dinner isn't a criminal offense equal to child molestation, prostitute hiring, and fbi most wanted stuff.
3. Take a chill pill and say, "It's just money."
Yes, duh. If you're not able to cover a paid-in-advance dinner, don't pay in advance. UNLESS....
Should I enforce pre-pay?
and, come on! Bar tabs? Don't allow freakin' bar tabs. Cashy-cashy or no drinkee.
What can be done to make sure this doesn't happen again?
Ummmm....This happened at C&O last month, too, you had to collect extra money to cover that bill.
I don't think it's fair that we had to come up with $450 to cover their asses.
Of course it's not. Absolutely collect from the no-shows (and i admit i was one of them, i was stuck doing MY self-employed, independent-contractor job) Look for my share of the $20 in e-mail, to be sent after i send this.
I've just outed myself as a no-show, and it IS a shame that someone had to cover for me on the spot...
...but I can't just blow off and say, "HEY, client, who has lots of choices to hire other people besides me, I have to go to a social dinner at a B restaurant so I don't get on Heather's threaten-to-go-public shitlist.
so YES! Send invoices by paypal. Which, by the way, according to their terms, you're not allowed to charge surcharges for paypal fees. I'm just sayin'.
Rick Rey
> show, it's not fair to thrash them for not showing up this time. I
> don't recall the upcoming invite letting them know that they'd be
> responsible if they didn't show up, and the upcoming site didn't point
> out the importance of holding to your RSVP.
This is a tough situation, but I tend to agree with Rizwan. I had no
idea the group would be stuck paying for no-shows (I was on the
"watching" list).
I actually called a friend who runs the catering department of a
restaurant chain, and she told me in a case like this -- unless the
restaurant made huge accommodations or pre-bought a large amount of
food -- they should have adjusted the check.
Besides the option of pursuing reimbursement from the restaurant, I
think if you personally contacted each of the no-shows and explained
the situation... they would be more than willing to pay their share. I
don't think there was intent to screw anybody over. It was just a
misunderstanding about the importance of RSVPing.
And in the future, I agree we should find venues that are a better fit
for the group. Or at least one that is flexible in a situation like
this.
-Rick
boogah
> Umm, didn't you just say "This is NOT ACCEPTABLE behavior for ADULTS!"
> Neither is that. Blowing off a dinner isn't a criminal offense equal to
> child molestation, prostitute hiring, and fbi most wanted stuff.
This is exactly what I wanted to say, but I didn't want to come off
sounding brash. I took the spineless way out tho. So a big +1 "fuck
yes" to you, JoAnna.
> > Should I enforce pre-pay?
> Yes, duh. pay in advance. No shows are no longer your problem.
I still say do away with fixed price - so +1 to Riz on that - and try
to go with a venue that will allow for separate checks if at all
possible. I know this isn't feasible for large groups at some venues
- but it needs to be done to enforce sanity. Still, this is a decent
alternative.
> > What can be done to make sure this doesn't happen again?
> Ummmm....This happened at C&O last month, too, you had to collect extra
> money to cover that bill.
Yeah, it did. And I didn't have enough money to cover the parking lot
attendant until I dug thru the change in my ashtray. I'm going to be
honest here, but I really don't want to show up to next month's dinner
if I have to cover people again. While the dinners are good for
socializing, maybe they have gotten too big for their britches and
need a refactoring.
> ...but I can't just blow off and say, "HEY, client, who has lots of choices
> to hire other people besides me, I have to go to a social dinner at a B
> restaurant so I don't get on Heather's threaten-to-go-public shitlist.
> so YES! Send invoices by paypal. Which, by the way, according to their
> terms, you're not allowed to charge surcharges for paypal fees. I'm just
> sayin'.
I couldn't agree more. I didn't realize that the dinner was going on
until midway thru my day. I felt like I was canceling a little close
to the wire for something that was depending on my $20 to be there -
but there were people fighting to be part of the 50 attendees - so I
figured it was okay.
I'm really on the fence about throwing $20 down even tho I'm
supposedly off the hook here. It sucks that people didn't pay, but it
sounds like an honest lack of foresight on the part of the person
planning to make sure people knew the importance of showing up. It's
an expensive lesson, but it's one worth learning.
Fuck it. Bino, I owe you a dinner or $20. What's your PayPal account?
--
-jason!
JoAnna M
Fuck it. Bino, I owe you a dinner or $20. What's your PayPal account?
cj
LA for over two months. I used to get stuck with an extra 50$-150$
every dinner - and that was only for 14-25 people. For me it was
easier to just pay it then make a stink about it - so I enabled them
to continue. Magically after about 1 1/2 years, this stopped. Now we
come out spot on, or (wait for it) ahead every dinner - which means a
bigger tip for the staff that has to deal with us.
Which means we can go back there. :)
This isn't my dinner though, and the organizers (read: Heather) need
to set the ground rules they are comfortable with. It should be
communicated how important the RSVP's are, true. But I've also learned
in LA that planning too far in advance is proportional to the number
of no shows. Set the date a month or more in advance - that is
great. But don't open up RSVP's until a week or so before hand. And
always, always, send out 1-2 reminder emails3 days, and then 1 day
before. That helps. Call the restaurant the day of and give them a
final count from the evite (in all it's 1.0 glory). Life will be
better - trust me.
Jason: the fixed price placement is kind of necessary. I've been able
to maintain open menu for my dinners, but that is for a handful of
reasons: 1) I've been going to these places for 5+ years in most
cases, so they know me; 2) I've been hosting dinners there for 2+
years; 3) I accept food coming out staggered (not at the same time -
which for 15+ people will KILL most kitchens); and more importantly 4)
I end up paying the tab anyway. This is not easy - and arguably
impossible with > 25 people.
Anyway, that's my $.02. Whoever stuck me with the beers (the one who
ordered the Bass - you know who you are), you may have a throat punch
coming your way. :-p
All in all though, great dinner. Thanks much Heather - you rock!
- cj
Lucas Gonze
completely non-confrontational, and it'll be good for attendance.
On 9/19/07, jasondru...@gmail.com <jasondru...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> pre-pay, for sure. If I'm pre-occupied and forget what day of the week
> it is & ignore my beeping calendar, it's my prob if I lose the $.
> Other people should not have to cover my tush because I was up to said
> a$$ in alligators.
>
> As far as the no-shows, IMO ask them for the $ (if they haven't
> already paid up in response to this post). If they don't pay, then if/
> when they RSVP for next time, put them on the waiting list.
>
>
>
> >
>
Rizwan Kassim
barrier to entry for people to come to the meetings already ---
"Who the hell are these people?"
"Will it be fun/educational?"
"Why the hell is it all the way out in that part of town?"
"Who is this Heather gal anyhow?"
And you're proposing adding :
"Why should I pay $20 to hang out with geeks when I could just stay at
home and ..."
Pre-paying for 'dinner' is fine, but folks should be permitted to come
to the GD without having dinner if we enforce payment. I'm not sure
(personally) that it's worth making the event less accessible to avoid
last night's debacle. Simply going to a restaurant sounds like a
better plan - or asking the restaurant to not make dishes until we've
got an idea of how many people still showed up. (I'm a bit surprised
that the restaurant didn't cut down the orders when they realized that
we'd be under-capacity.)
Best
Rizwan
Chuck Esterbrook
>
> I really don't think that it'd be good for attendance. There's a
> barrier to entry for people to come to the meetings already ---
>
> "Who the hell are these people?"
> "Will it be fun/educational?"
> "Why the hell is it all the way out in that part of town?"
> "Who is this Heather gal anyhow?"
* Is the above person going to come anyway? Would we enjoy their company???
* Isn't question 4 really a positive factor instead of a negative?
* I had *mild* versions of *some* of these questions when I first
heard of the dinner, but I knew how to get the answer: Show up. It's a
dinner, not a life commitment. It's $20, not a mortgage.
* We're already over capacity with people on waiting lists. And I
don't know if Electric Lotus could have sat 20 more without us going
insane from the noise.
> And you're proposing adding :
> "Why should I pay $20 to hang out with geeks when I could just stay at
> home and ..."
>
> Pre-paying for 'dinner' is fine, but folks should be permitted to come
> to the GD without having dinner if we enforce payment. I'm not sure
> (personally) that it's worth making the event less accessible to avoid
> last night's debacle. Simply going to a restaurant sounds like a
> better plan - or asking the restaurant to not make dishes until we've
> got an idea of how many people still showed up. (I'm a bit surprised
> that the restaurant didn't cut down the orders when they realized that
> we'd be under-capacity.)
* But the $20 was already there and interest exceeded capacity.
Apparently, it's not a problem. Probably because:
* The $20 covers food just like if you went out to any restaurant on
any night in LA.
I suggest:
* Prepayment.
* Reminder the day of and three days before (CJ beat me to this
despite my knowing Dvorak as well).
AOEUly yours,
-Chuck
Markus Sandy
>
><snip/>
>
>unless the
>restaurant made huge accommodations or pre-bought a large amount of
>food
>
hi rick,
this was indeed the case. we did not individually order (except
drinks). there was an entire empty table full of delicious food.
markus
--
Markus Sandy
heather vescent
community because I wanted to know what you think.
> > 2. Publish the names and publicly humiliate the people who didn't
> > show up?
>
> Umm, didn't you just say "This is NOT ACCEPTABLE behavior for ADULTS!"
> Neither is that. Blowing off a dinner isn't a criminal offense equal to
> child molestation, prostitute hiring, and fbi most wanted stuff.
That's the toned down version of a suggestion from last night.
>
> > 3. Take a chill pill and say, "It's just money."
>
>
> Yes, duh. If you're not able to cover a paid-in-advance dinner, don't pay
> in advance. UNLESS....
The dinner was not pre-paid, but paid on site.
>
> > Should I enforce pre-pay?
> Yes, duh. pay in advance. No shows are no longer your problem.
>
> and, come on! Bar tabs? Don't allow freakin' bar tabs. Cashy-cashy or no
> drinkee.
>
> > What can be done to make sure this doesn't happen again?
>
> Ummmm....This happened at C&O last month, too, you had to collect extra
> money to cover that bill.
That was in part my fault for not including tax and tip into the total
amount (the restaurant didn't do this). A problem I fixed with last
night's geek dinner by asking for tax and tip to be included in the
per person price.
>
> > I don't think it's fair that we had to come up with $450 to cover their
> asses.
>
> Of course it's not. Absolutely collect from the no-shows (and i admit i was
> one of them, i was stuck doing MY self-employed, independent-contractor job)
> Look for my share of the $20 in e-mail, to be sent after i send this.
>
> I've just outed myself as a no-show, and it IS a shame that someone had to
> cover for me on the spot...
>
> ...but I can't just blow off and say, "HEY, client, who has lots of choices
> to hire other people besides me, I have to go to a social dinner at a B
> restaurant so I don't get on Heather's threaten-to-go-public shitlist.
But you could have taken 1 minute to direct twitter me to tell me you
wouldn't be making it. The point is not to witch-hunt the no-shows.
There have always been no-shows and I've dealt with that quietly. When
there are just a few, it is no big deal.
We're going through growing pains. I'm engaging the community to help
create the event/experience they want - I'm not asking permission to
tar and feather people. I think anyone who knows me knows that is not
my style.
I wasn't assuming the no-shows did it to be assholes. But their lack
of follow-through for whatever reasons dramatically affected many
people.
I will say that I did not make as strong pronouncements about showing
up or selling your firstborn to this geek dinner as I did to the last
one. However, I did ask that people only RSVP if they really plan to
show up. Now, I know I must crack the whip hard with y'all. Still a
50% no-show is surprising, unusual and follows none of the previous
patterns.
Blaming me (underhandedly no less, Jason) for creating this situation
is not only incorrect, it side-steps the problem, it does not help
create a solution and creates divisiveness in the community.
I am asking for opinions and ideas on ways to make this better. I have
some ideas, and I was hoping the community would have more/different
ideas. Keep the good stuff coming. We're going to come out with a
better and stronger geek dinner and LA tech community in the long run.
And we're all going to benefit from that.
If this isn't your vibe, you don't have to participate. It takes <1
minute to unsubscribe.
><3,
-Heather
Bino Gopal
Hehe, definitely thanks for helping out guys, but it might be better to just send it all to Heather and let her disburse it as there were other people (Sanjay, CJ, and even other folks) who threw in too. But I will add one minor correction:
That’s Rizwan’s email address, not mine. Mine is bino...@hotmail.com, kinda mirrors my name, you know? :P
<insert joke about how us brown folks all look alike, in good spirit>
;)
BINO
Bino Gopal
the right to do at this point!):
I definitely feel that we're developing a great community here folks, and
let's make sure to not let something like this become a divisive issue; as
others have said, it's just growing pains, and we're trying to figure it
out, so let's use this as an opportunity to improve the process and make
future events better...
So this only became a big issue b/c of the unusually large number of
no-shows. To be fair Heather, I don't think it was that obvious (wasn't to
me at least, so probably others too) from the invite that while it was a
prie fixe meal, it was a PRE-PAID prie fixe meal. So that might've helped
encourage people to either show up, or at least indicate they'd definitely
have no problem covering their $20 if they couldn't show up, or at least let
you know more proactively so someone else could take their spot, if they'd
known that. So I think we don't need to chase people down to help cover,
most will probably do it of their own gumption.
But in response to those people who said the restaurant could've just
adjusted--well they blocked off a whole (BIG) section for us, and pretty
much pre-prepared a bunch of food since we said we'd be 50 ppl; that's a
LARGE # of people, and you can't just whip up stuff for that many people all
at once; so I think that was what necessitated the whole thing.
And as you said Heather, I don't think *any* of the people who RSVP'ed for
the event were intending to screw anyone over or the like, and no one who
came please think that we're saying anything like tthat. But I can also see
how it might not seem like a big deal if you weren't there--but when you're
there and staring at the check and seeing it's over $400 short, then it does
seem like kind of a big deal, and there were definitely some outrageous
suggestions of keel-hauling and the like that were made concerning the
no-shows, so note that Heather's email was kind of mild in it's tone!
But as pointed out, I don't think we're trying to blame folks or want anyone
to feel that way. I think that we just need to communicate better, and
future-proof the process. So taking the suggestions already made, if we can
arrange prie-fixe dinners, that's good. That way, if you RSVP then you know
you're on the hook for it. If we can get an easy pre-pay process in place,
then even better. But as Riz said, don't make it required; you just can't
eat if you don't pre-pay, or you just have to pay when you get there.
And since we've raised this issue very publicly now, and knowing the quality
of people coming, I'm confident that the next dinner we have, people will
make sure that the bill is more than covered so we won't have to deal with
this issue again. Let see if you guys can prove me right! Thanks.
Sincerely,
BINO
-----Original Message-----
From: Barc...@googlegroups.com [mailto:Barc...@googlegroups.com] On
Behalf Of heather vescent
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 7:52 PM
To: Barc...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [BarCampLA] Re: About Last Night - my g33k d1nner recap
Chris Bell
considerate had I known of the $20 pre pay! I was clueless however.
Bino, I have a crisp $20 for you on my desk next time you roll by. :)
-Chris