Fw: Brotherhood: Humanity: Social Working: Priorities in individual life

[Vivek Umrao Glendenning]

 

From: Social Ownership

Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 8:40 AM

To: Dr. Kamal

Cc: Bharat Shilpi ; ravikan...@gmail.com ; rupesh...@gmail.com ; drprah...@gmail.com ; amit.m...@gmail.com ; call2a...@gmail.com ; abhi...@gmail.com ; rish...@gmail.com ; gopalkrish...@gmail.com ; ashok.sa...@gmail.com ; pratibha...@gmail.com ; pratibha...@yahoo.com ; manoj....@icicibank.com ; swadhe...@gmail.com ; ko...@del2.vsnl.net.in ; shoub...@gmail.com ; spna...@yahoo.com ; aman.m...@gmail.com ; kris...@gmail.com ; bhatv...@yahoo.com ; aditya...@gmail.com ; bm_gene...@googlegroups.com ; ashok_sa...@yahoo.co.in ; cbal...@gmail.com ; ankur....@gmail.com

Subject: Brotherhood: Humanity: Social Working: Priorities in individual life

Respected Dr. Saheb,
Sorry i am not anyone's big brother. I am too younger in age. Sorry i am a common man and like to stand with common man. I am hard in my daily life also if there is anything against common man. Sorry only to get some praising from Elite Group i can not leave my stand.

I know very well the sensitivities of you all in various social issues for last two years. I know it very well. Please go and evaluate the works and stand of BM including Dr Ravi and off course your also. Still i have a question, a moral question that when you should work, when society needs you or based on your own life style calculations. How can you join your hand with exploited society even you are also contributing very well in the exploitation of society. Even these questions look stupid to you all, but if you will be able to answer only then you will be able to work for society in real sense.

I can not stop you to think based on your own conditioning but i can say one thing that you were wrong and are wrong in evaluation.
May be you think in your mind that you are very right, but i know that you or Dr ravi or others knew from your childhood that your society is suffering and is being exploited but you opted to not work for society (you had options, everyone has options), it was your own choice. Society was not in priority from your childhood and still society is not in your priority (then why should i take your evaluation or advices seriously? please do not mind it).

Suppose one person is dying in a ocean, what i will do, even i do not know swim but i will throw myself in ocean. What you will do, you will go to learn swimming and then you will go to arrange for two life jackets and ropes then you will go in ocean, but till then......(you can think easily, what you will get in ocean) and because you will go to learn in a swimming institute and to get life jackets thus people will know that you are going to save a life you will be praised and also will get media publicity and also will get award (it is sure by this mean you will be a very big Social Worker as Dr Reddy mentioned in his mail for Dr Ravi). In this story, i will be feeling exactly same thing as that man, i will be also seeing my death then me and that guy both will try our best to save our lives together and we will also feel brotherhood and this feeling of brotherhood and i will be able to understand live experience of his pain and it will not be advertised. And in this incident i would have learnt swimming also and will be moving to be a human being (not a social worker). You can make thousands of logics but i know very well that there are millions of millions persons are dying and numbers of life jackets are very less in number.

I entered in social activism when i was less than 15 years in my age, no body trusted me that i will continue in works but they have left and i am still here, many persons have told me that i am rude thus i will not have committed friends.
But i know that i have lots of friends with commitment and have mass support also, but i always face problems from Elite Class as i have been facing in BM. I have decided that i will stand with non-privileged class.

Except me who is criticizing Dr Ravi? No one?
I know that Dr Ravi and you are not very honest this is why you do not like my critics. If you will start to see with depth then you will get that if i have ego then i have base for it and you have baseless ego. If i have ego and non-polite guy then how mass is giving its support to me. I think manners, attitudes, and other similar things are just for Elite Groups, still these words need to be defined. Why should i follow definitions of Elite Group?
I wait your conditioned, biased and full of logics reply.

You evaluate via Emails, i evaluate by actions and activities and live behaviour. You guys are evaluating Dr Ravi because he writes good language mail. I evaluate by his actions. You feel that he is walking in truth because he writes long article on truth, i want to ask a simple question that why he mobilize BM members to become General Secretary of BM even he came just for few months in India (under which type of Truth and Gandhian Ideology?). You trust him in his statement of Village Economy because his dreams are very good in his writings but i want to know that by getting money from outside and by having a luxurious Ashram how he will move towards Village Economy (Economy means Currency?). You are saying that Dr Ravi ji is polite and sensitive, only because he speaks very soft in language and in mails. I think that he is an very violent man he mobilized BM members to become General Secretary even he had no moral rights for it, he has not practical experiences but he is mobilizing only by emails that he should be granted 9 Million Rs in next few years. He opted to leave India and spent his quality years in USA and will spend remain energetic  (what is the base of his sensitivity?). For you he can be very sensitive, i know that because people are not very aware thus people will be with him because of his many illusions.
But my questions are only because he makes lots of too heavy statements that he walks in truth, high moral values and in Gandhian Ideology, he provides me opportunity to ask questions by his own statements as i give opportunity to you to write negative mails to me. (i hope you will try to understand my points above than your identity, high personality and ego (not giant)).

One more thing, i always reply, even i am criticized by you or others because communication break is not a good thing.
I went to Gwalior to meet BM members including but Dr Ravi had no time to have talk with me, because he is perfect and has perfect understanding thus he does not need any learning. It is because of Egos of IIT, Singapore, $ and USA. I know some young BM members, they have much better understanding of society than Dr Ravi but they have not back up of USA, $ or also not from any Dr Reddy, Dr Kamal and others.

Respected Dr. Akalpita Ji,
India is in very critical state, it needs very hard TAPASYA, not less than this. Society is not a joke or a toy for Elites that it should be played as they want. BM member called me for one hour and spoke to me heavy philosophical words on Flood with high sensitivity but till now those BM members are not anywhere in action. People are interested to work on T-Sunami but not in Flood, because T-Sunami was an international media publicity also, but Flood is not a media publicity. In flood, there are more continuous sufferings than one time T-Sunami. Have you visited damaged Villages of Earth Quakes? Just after few months, anyone can go and can evaluate the alive examples of manners and sensitivities of our Elite Groups.

I live with painful society directly. I am totally unable to understand heavy but hollow wordings of ........
Sorry for my disabilities.
love
vivek

Rest is on you.
love
vivek

On 10/20/07, Dr. Kamal <kksh...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Vivek,

Even in your apologies (if you seriously meant them) gives a clear indication of your giant ego and that you seem to have been hurt at the attempt of people to just tell you to mend your ways and appreciate efforts of others.

I wish God gives you enough time and patience to mend your publicly non-defensible writings and be better known as a very sensible social worker for the last society. I know you do not need any certificate for that but whats the harm in appreciating and not looking down upon other's efforts, you will only see there are more friends along your journey to support and appreciate your efforts (I know you do not need them)...and in the process we will be able to make 1+1=11 for the common society.  Everybody will benefit from that, even the last man, let the positive energies flow, even in a child or an MNC millionaire. If you have the guts and leadership ability to bring together such efforts on a common platform, that will be your golden contribution to the society...I am not only talking about money but efforts in kind. But till you are able to unite the efforts, you seriously need to learn to be positive and shed your ego or else let others do what they want and do not criticise them. Remember, every bit of criticism can only lower the morale of people because it is coming from YOU who is a veteran in this field. But being a big brother calls for more maturity and understanding.

Hope your future glows more positive than today and let the common man benefit. Take this positively, you may like to react as always but if only you would be able to see the positive energy within...

Regards.

Dr.Kamal

 

On 10/19/07, Vivek Umrao Glendenning <umrao...@gmail.com > wrote:

Respected Dr Ravi Kant Ji, Dr Reddy Ji, Dr Kamal Ji, Surendran Ji, Ranjan Ji and others

 

I apologize for my all mails. I think, I should not reply in mails. I have understood that BM is a great organization and all are great.

Respected Brothers and Sisters,

Please this time forgive me, I will try my best to not put my leg in any discussion or matter.

I hope I will be forgiven.

Please Respected Dr Reddy Ji forgive me, Please Surendran Ji forgive me, Please Dr Ravi Kant Pathak Ji forgive me, Please Dr Kamal Kishore Sharma ji forgive me, Please Ranjan Ji forgive me, Please all BM members forgive me.

I promise, I will try to praise BM and its members by accepting their greatness and completeness.

 

love

vivek

ps- please forgive me, please accept my apology. please.

 

 

 

 

Subject: Re: [BM_discussion] Re: Uniting and Rejunvenating BM

 

Dear Vivek

 

I hate to entre in to any debate. But, now, I request you, stop it. I agree with you regarding asking for money in such large quantities.  I donot find any logic. Money should come automatically when the work needs it. First one has to start working.

 

But

 

Tum bahut muh fat ho.

Kya tumhara yaha manana hai ki tapsya sirf jangal me ya himalay jaisi pahdiyon me ki ja sakti hai? Kya nagarme rehene walonme koi tapswi nahi banta?

 

Kya manav jatiko sevake liye ghar bar chhodneki aawashyakta hai? Ky koi apni jagaha, apne kartavyanko nibhate huve logonki seva karte hi nahi?

 

Maan liya ki tum is dishame sabse bahut hi aage ho.

Mera manana hai ki tumne pichhle janam me chhoda huva adhura kaam aage badhaya hai. Us vaqt jab kaam chalu kiya tha, tumhari umra kya hogi?

 

Jo tum kah rahe ho, danke ki chot par tab kahana jab tumhari santan ho. Jab tumhari santan ek kadam chalegi, usko bahut khushi hogi. Tab kya tum kahoge ki isme kaunsi badi bat hai? Mai to marethon daud chuka hun.

 

Koi bhi kisibhi umarme agar ek kadam bhi chale to uski sarahana karna sikho. Tum bade ho hi. Dusron ko chhota dikhake kya tum aaur bade ban jaoge?

 

Vidya vinayena shobhate, yah sahi hai ki ya fir

Vidya vinayena na shobhate?

 

Ek bat pakki than lo. Ma kabhi kharidi nahi ja sakti. aaur, agar bachheko sahi rasta na dikhaye to vaha maa nahi hoti. So mai to tumhe batati hi rahungi.

 

Remember

they also serve who only stand and wait.

 

abhi logon ne aage badhna shuru kiya hai. Jis disha me tum choti par ho. unki sarahana karna sikho. Na ki unko chot panhuchao. Isase tumhare vyaktimatvako char chand lag jayenge.

 

Tum kitnebhi naraj ho jao. Mai jitni tumhari sarahana karti hun, utnahi tumhe samzane ka haq rakhti hun.

 

ek bar fir spashta kardun. tumhara batana galat nahi hai. Bataneka tarika, dhang galat hai.

 

Akalpita

 

 

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[Surendran B]

Dear Mr.Vivek

 First of all I m pleasantly surprised by your decision to include me in the intellectual class or that is what I understand from your mails.  If that is what you meant, I am obliged to tell you something in this regard.  I am not a scholar, nor an academic, I don't have an IIT/IIM degree or for that matter I don't even belong to any of the premier educational institutions.  I am a software professional by qualification but I don't work for any corporate (I am not intending too) and I do not have access to really big money and I never had it too.  On top of all I am not even half your age.  But I do know what our society is, where I stand in it, what it needs and what my accountability to the society is etc, if not to your levels and I strongly believe I would learn it with age and I am of the opinion that yours' is not the only way to do it. 

 Well if you feel there is no ideological base in this thread, I would be happy to straighten it out.  I would be very glad to explain my stand if you can kindly point out where I have erred in logic.  Since you have raised this point of ideology and logic, I would also like to ask you something in this regard, which I feel you would be more than willing to answer and clear my doubts.  In your replies, you have visualized BM as the elite class and that you are willing to stand with the under privileged class.  This, if I am not wrong, is a Marxist stand.  This being the case, are you working towards social reconstruction or are you marching towards a revolution to overthrow the elite class and put the subaltern class in a better position.  If this is not the case and if you are not a Marxist by ideology why shouldn't I tell that you are pulling up ideologies at will to justify the points you are willing to convey through that mail.  How would you logically justify Gandhian ideology and Marxism in a single mail?  While you criticize the mails for being philosophically loaded, intellectual, heavy but hollow words etc, how would you explain this act of pulling Marxism out of no where, into this issue, though you are not putting it in direct words?

     I presume that you had realized that people passing out of the premier educational institutions are doing so only to get an identity and security, long before this issue has come up.  If that is the case, why did you need those identities in your mail and you are yet to answer this question of mine.  Also, what made you change it?  You also claim to have the mass support.  I guess that it was that section of masses which were underprivileged that you were working for and so  would you like to say that these identities and securities were absolutely immaterial for your works?  

            When a person is dying in the ocean you may jump in it, even if you don't know swimming, to save him.  I would like to appreciate this tendency of yours and I bet not many would have this guts.  You may even succeed in saving the person, even if you yourself don't know swimming.  But how many times can you do the same.  If for instance, if you happen to drown (God Forbid) during the second such incident, what is the plight of the persons who would fall in the same ocean after that.  We do not want one such scenario to come up and our intentions are to develop such a situation whereby nobody falls into the ocean again.  We may be slow but sure to reach there or at least initiate the process which would be continued by the forthcoming generations.

            As you have chosen not to reply in this chain anymore, I would request you to post me a reply to my inbox at least and I am eagerly awaiting it.

--
B.Surendran

[suren]

Dear Mr.Vivek

B.Surendran

[Dr. Prahalathan KK]

As you have chosen not to reply in this chain anymore, I
would request you to post me a reply to my inbox at least and I am
eagerly awaiting it.

You've sent this to BM_Discussion asking him to reply personaly???

Vande Mataram!
 
Prahalathan
http://www.prahalathan.blogspot.com/
www.BhumiChennai.co.nr
 
India at 60, Better than yesterday,
But, not as good as tomorrow!

-----Original Message-----
From: BM_dis...@googlegroups.com [mailto:BM_dis...@googlegroups.com]
On Behalf Of suren
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 12:41 AM
To: BM_discussion
Subject: [BM_discussion] Re: Fw: Brotherhood: Humanity: Social Working:
Priorities in individual life

[Vivek Umrao Glendenning]

Respected Surendran Ji,

You are much more than half of my age. I will be 31 years in age on 27th of November.

I hope you are about 20 to 25 years in age.

Rest is fine.

love

vivek

coord...@localgovernance.org
...................................................................................................................

Please visit our Annual Work Report, Articles and try to make a comment--

[Vivek Umrao Glendenning]

Respected Surendran Ji,
Please try to ignore the reply of Respected Dr Prahlathan. He always lives
in logics and kills discussions. He thinks that every one is fool.
He never replies in others discussions but has concentration in silly
sentences by killing original sensitivity of whole writings.

If in a mail you have something related to social welfare, even it is
personally addressed, you have all rights to post it in groups.
Please do not get sad. Continue to discuss things HOT or COLD but related to
social welfare.
One more thing, society loves, who works in ground not words.
keep going with thinking and discussions related to society. Do not care for
logics.
love
vivek

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Dr. Prahalathan KK" <prahala...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 9:56 PM
To: <BM_dis...@googlegroups.com>

coord...@localgovernance.org
...................................................................................................................

[Surendran B]

very true.. sorry i happened to mis judge your age rather i never saw it

[Vivek Umrao Glendenning]

Respected Surendran Ji,

I did not reply your mail because I got that you are writing mail with sincerity and out of reaction. I postponed to reply you. Today I have some extra time thus I read your mail again peacefully and now am replying you.

---

First, about the story of ocean.

 

At least the guy (use life jackets) will never be able to save lives. Because he will not walk always with Life-Jackets, if he will see again any guy in Ocean, then he will run to his house to collect his Life Jackets (because his preference is to save his own life, he does not want to sacrifice for others or with others).

 

The other guy (who jumped immediately), if in his first chance, will not die in ocean then he will always save lives. Because he has only two options in his first chance.

Either he will die in ocean or He will save the life of person including his own life.

Now if first thing happen, then no doubt he is a great guy that he sacrificed his own life for others (similar to Bhagat Singh or Others).

If he saved the life, this means he came from ocean to the land with the person, in this whole process he learnt swimming automatically, in the next time he will go to ocean to save life with better confidence, and each time he will be better and better and better.

It is alive learning process.

---

I am not a Marxist or also not a Gandhian. Because you can not be a Marxian or Gandhian or other ians, we always learn from others workings and add our own alive experiences for next. It is chain of society movement. I get many things good in Marx, Gandhi, Vivekanand, Tolstoy, Gorki, Khalil Jibran, Rousseau, Machiavelli, Aristotle, and too many others. To work in society is not an Essay writing or also not an Academic Seminar Place or a Class Room for Particular Subject that can not talk about Gandhi, if you are talking on Marx.

You can not work on society by making a plan based on in good philosophy, you have to move on works with your own understanding of society and human beings. The readings can support you but it is not sufficient. A illiterate person can establish Ideal Social Models in Society and later his working can be accepted as philosophy and many intellectual can get their doctorates and post doctorates in world level universities based on his works even he is totally illiterate on definitions of universities.

You wrote in your one mail that BM is working on plans, in my understanding that you can not work with plans in Indian Society, may be you can work with plans in Western Countries but in India you can not move with plans. Indian society is a much mature society but Indian State is not mature, because Indian State is following Western Countries Systems and philosophies and definitions. We have accepted in our inside that USA is mature, Western Countries are mature and also developed. If we start to watch carefully the causes for this then we get that we pray for Violent Powers and Materialistic Luxuries.

BM says that it wants to work to make India developed, here, what is meaning of development? What is meaning of strong and powerful country?

It is very easy to understand that what BM mean when it uses these words. BM follows definitions of USA or Western Countries and BM accepts USA and Western Countries as Ideal. Why does BM commit blunder mistakes here? Because BM was formed by IITians, and why IIT is illusion in Indian Urban Middle Class? Because it is very easy to get jobs and financial securities after IIT.

After 1956, we can evaluate contributions of IITs to common Indian Society. IITs were formed for researches for social welfare with social accountability. IITs are not formed by air, these are formed by common people of India. Western Market needs cheap software workers and they can get it from India very easy by giving some currency to Indians. Because China was closed thus they could not get it from China, and now China has started to open it, even China has comparatively strong economy than India, China will provide software workers to western countries with more respectful manner than India.

 

If you will start to evaluate various indian systems, you will get similar things.---

 

In Governance Systems-

Government Officers and Political Leaders were/are busy to get a chance to go Western Countries on the Expenses of Common People, why?

They write in their very long documents that they are going learn from other countries experiences for social development. Why do they not try to explore solution with the own traditional knowledge and from the society? Because we have habits of illusions and we do not respect qualities or abilities of human beings, we prefer to give weights to Brands and this tendency we got from colonial systems.

We already had a bad and borrowed Governance System and we preferred to copy more and more things from Western Countries and later from USA. After the so-called liberalization on 1992, situation became more worse and worse. Only Elite and Upper Middle Classes became able to get Luxuries easily and without hassles. Middle and Lower Middle Classes started to get a seat in Upper Middle Class and this is going on under various cut-throat competitions.

Can it be asked to officers and political leaders that what benefits without sacrificing sovereignty of society and country, they got by following blindly USA or Western Countries.

Why is it appreciable to go outside or to get job out side india? When will we be able to remove our internal slavery?

how can mental slave governance systems work better for society?

 

In NGOs Field- 

In Indian NGOs, it is very bad habit that from their birth, they start to seek and try for funds. They work for media reports and media documentations to show proof to funding agencies to get money from them. NGO try to get FCRA account that they can be able to get foreign currency from International Funding Agencies. They try to call people from Western Countries for Evaluation etc.

Would we like to evaluate our these internal slaveries? 

 

I know that only in one year, we have invested more than 10 Million Rs only from the local society, even these areas are comparatively economically poor. Actually, we do not want to the people or masses, we do not want to walk with the last society even we always talk that we are working for last society. We are ready to make efforts with Funding Agencies as like dogs but we are not ready to go with society. We are ready to accept monitoring and evaluation from the Funding Agencies but we are not ready for evaluation or monitoring by common society. Why? because we can not make fool to the society, we can make fool to Funding Agencies because funding agencies evaluate by Articles, Documents, Papers and by Media.

 

What I say- From where Funding Agencies (Govt or Non-Govt) get money, obviously by common society then why should we not go directly to the society? I know it is difficult to go in society than to go a small group.

 

For example- Why does Dr Ravi not want to go directly in society? Because he will be evaluated by his working, by his actual understandings of society, if he will make mistakes society will throw out him without giving a second chance. He will have to start from ZERO in society and may be society will start to trust on him after two or three decades. Thus he uses short cuts, he sends heavy philosophical mails and uses the illusions of USA and IIT etc on a small but privileged group, he will be trusted easily and will get lots of money by manipulating realities of under privileged society.

He has no relation with Village Economy with his Ashram but because he can access privileged group by the conditionings of illusions, he will get money and again the last society will have to become toy of Dr Ravi's experiments of Village Economy. If we will see in depth then from where Ravi got understanding, from USA, he did not go to last society and he will work for Village Economy and by getting money from outside especially from USA. And why BM will trust him only because he was in USA.

Not only Ravi Kant Pathak, but hundreds of Ravi Kant have formed Ashrams to establish ideals of Village Economy etc. But if there is an Ashram then where will be village and if outer funds will be taken then where will be Village Economy?

 

I am not opposing Ravi Kant, if he thinks that he is thinking right then he must go to form an Ashram as like hundreds of others but it will in different Umbrella ie BM. But will it be a model of Village Economy? This is the fundamental question. He can be a good teacher in IIT in his subject but to be a faculty in IIT does not indicate perfection in all dimensions of the society. If he wants to work for Village Economy then he should go to an unknown village as unknown person and should start a work from zero, I can bet, he will get understanding out of various projected conditionings.

 

Economy, Leadership & Media-

To be equal as USA or Western Countries, we are interested in their life style. Now in India every thing is moving around currency. There are lots of Floating Currency in India, and it is only because of wrong policies by policy planners. Now this Floating Currency is being floated within Indian population. The fundamental character of this Floating Currency is- to take a big round within mass and again return to the same pocket. Currency can not be owned because it has no worth, but it creates a pseudo that it can be owned. It is a big game of Floating Currency in India, MNCs are indulged to increase corruption in Indian Governance System, how currency can be made White Currency from Black Currency, only by method of Floating Currency.

 

Every where we can see there are too many things, by which you can become a Millionaire and we are in race of to be Millionaire as early as we can.

We go in various TV Channel Programmes and give answers for silly questions and become millionaires, and where we spend that currency.........? How many people can access all these things?

Are all these thing not have impacts on our society/ our governance system/ our economy etc?

Should we not try to analyze the causes of our mental slaveries?

 

Why could we not oppose Times of India's Lead India Contest? We are praising this contest by making silly logics. Why do we always think that our common society is too weak or fool?

Do we discuss all these things with concern with sincerity?

Do we think that now USA wants to govern us directly?

Can planted leaders work for common society? Indirectly in India, a projected move is going on that common or poor people should not run in leadership because they are fool and can not understand high academic things or do not have academic qualifications. Indirectly it is being projected that villagers are fool and urban are mature because they have currency and can access many luxuries.

Nowadays very strange mentality is moving that the ability to access Luxury, Currency and Communication Systems are maturities and best things.

 

BM members speak that they are working on plans. I am not able to understand that how, without having direct access in depth of society, BM is working on policies or plans?

 

I have a lot to say but it will depend on replies.

---

I hope, I did not commit crime by writing this email.

love

vivek

 

 

 

 

 

    

From: Surendran B

Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 12:37 AM

To: BM_dis...@googlegroups.com

Cc: Group BM General Body

[Abhijit K]

Friends,

I try to write as less emails as possible nowadays, but Vivek's enthusiasm makes me write this one :p ..

I would like to say that more or less, I agree with what Vivek has said about the society, BUM and  "us" ..  the middle-upper-class-upper-caste elite of this country (and outside too !) ....

I was accused of being a Marxist/Chinaist/something-like-that by somebody, in the past.. and I did not understand it... may be because I never tried to understand anything from its label..   As Vivek has said, the people's movement has matured with its experiences all over the world.. and with the writings of all the people that Vivek mentioned and  .... more importantly with the collective experience of the people who chose to work with masses.  Why do we try to label people and not listen to their thoughts on the issues ? ... We are not competing here to better the society .. isn't it.. ?

I joined BUM out of the passion to do something, and that passion still continues..  but the understanding of the society and its problems and possible solutions has changed quite a lot with my own small experiences, writings of people and knowing the experiences of people who have given their lives for the cause..

BUM (whatever that means) in the form when it was incepted, where it started and the way it started, was a mistake... It was called a novel experiment, but it was an experiment bound to fail and ... lets try to digest it.. but.. it has failed...  Most of the people on this email (including me) have played their part in taking it to its conclusion...    It has brought a few sincere people together, and that is the good legacy I believe, it leaves behind..

As Vivek has raised questions... "

Why could we not oppose Times of India's Lead India Contest? We are praising this contest by making silly logics. Why do we always think that our common society is too weak or fool?

Do we discuss all these things with concern with sincerity?

Do we think that now USA wants to govern us directly?

Can planted leaders work for common society?
"

... lets start questioning the "BASIC ASSUMPTIONS" about the society and the system that we are living in ...

We need to identify ourselves with the people and the people's movement..   The sincere folks in BUM need to think-n-act more seriously now... 

Regards,
Abhijit
(in my capacity as a volunteer for the people's cause.. ) ..

--
Abhijit Minakshi
About my name: www.geocities.com/abhijit1303/aboutname.txt

[Surendran B]

Well, dint we see what the status of Bagat Singh is today. It needed a Wikipedia to tell his date of birth and a movie like "Rang De Basanti", to tell people who he was. Please do not see this in the light of recognition received but I wrote this to hint at the conditions of person who did a true sacrifice.

When so many people have started like this and ended up no where, we are feeling that risking with the life of even one person who has fallen into the ocean is dangerous because so many people had done this in the past and therefore there is no wonder in the common man being apprehensive to such players who come up on the stage. Should we be one among those who jumped and vanished at the first instance or should we be somebody who wants to make a lasting impact? We chose the latter. That does not mean fear/unwillingness to jump in.

Waiting to step in does not always mean reluctance. Trying to build resources does not always mean trying showing economic arrogance. Writing in "high" words does not always mean trying to hijack the minds of people.


You had raised the point of internal slavery at one point. May be I would not agree with the exact terminology you used but I do agree with the issue you wanted to convey. The question I would like to ask is, is this problem (if it can be seen as a problem) contemporary alone. We may find several such instances if we analyze our history.

Only when a westerner pointed out that "every Indian village is a society in itself, so self contained and self dependent", did many amongst us realize its true meaning and potential.

Until it was called YOG, it was not so popular and we did not realize its importance. Somebody needed to go to the west, popularize it as Yoga, and prove that whatever spelled out in YOG is scientific too and just not random. Only then we, the creators of the art, understood the importance it could play.

Similarly, it took a person like Vivekananda to go to the west and proclaim that there is a society called Indian society, which is far more advanced than yours, may be not technologically but on the whole. Only then the westerners understood the importance of India as a society. And I would not be wrong if I say we also learn the glory and the power of Indian society, only from writings and speeches of such people.

In all these 3 instances, the difference was noted by people who had the knowledge of both the sides. If Vivekananda had not studied both the societies, he would not have been able to proclaim the greatness of our society and system in a meeting filled with westerners. But at the same time, he was not against the western systems and he has also appreciated certain things of the English society.

You rightly said it when you said Indian society is already mature and we also believe in that strongly. One underlying thing I find in common in all your points, if I am not wrong, is that you are trying to point out why we should be evaluating ourselves based on the western models and in the due course of time, we are becoming the slaves. I would not say what you say is right or wrong for one's belief is a product of the experience and the knowledge one gains out of that experience. I would like to differ here.

Let us consider the impact of the western world on us. For example take this mail itself. But for the creation of a thing called email, I would not have run into you and you would not have known me. Fine, we have to accept that the people working there may be Indians but the western world does claim supremacy over others with this creation. Should we call this as our ignorance or their brilliance? The question is open.

This situation is not limited to technology alone. While many western countries claim to be the champions of democracy, we can proudly claim that democracy and balance of power, distribution of powers etc may be a recent phenomenon known to them, possibly since the past 3 centuries where as we had been be practising it ever since records claim about the existence of Indian society.

The point I would like make here is that when a western system or technology or product or anything else, if it is beneficial to our society, there is no harm in adopting it. Merely adopting it does not mean we are becoming slaves to it or we are accepting their supremacy or we are treating them as IDEAL. When we find something is better than what we have there is no harm in trying to incorporate that also in our system.

Can we altogether neglect the western models and proceed with our own? Again this question is also open. The answer to this question depends on one's conditioning and need not be same always. For example, I myself would say we need not always neglect the western models, be it in any field. We all use computers but when it comes to some puja we give 'tikka' to our computer also. What does this indicate? When something of this sort is being done in our private lives, why cannot be repeat the same in our public life also. The difference, to me, appears to be only on magnitude and scale and we can carry the same spirit here too.

You can effectively counter this by citing a few other examples which would prove that we can still live and succeed without western technologies. And that would also appear to be correct. But aren't we having the same intentions at the bottom of the heart? Your experience and knowledge makes you see things in a different light and I see it in a different light and I bet if we go on discussing even for 100 years, we will not come to a common conclusion.

It is utmost unfair to pull people of high stature for an analogy in this context but still I would like to do it. Both Nehru had a western model of development in his mind; Gandhi wanted sustainable form of development. Both belonged to different educational backgrounds. Though Gandhi talked about traditional methods, he was educated in the western system. But both of them united for one common cause and they succeeded too. After independence, we did try both the models but the results do not show a good picture for both the experiments. We cannot rule out even one or both of them to be incorrect.

Development is a relative concept. For us the western world may appear technologically well developed than us and for the western world we may appear spiritually well developed than us. Nowadays we see how the so called technologically well developed societies try to follow us and grow spiritually also. If that is so, why shouldn't we borrow something from their world to bring about betterment? Simply because the western world is trying to take our things into their world, does this mean the western world is accepting us as IDEAL?


Even now, through this mail thread, what are we trying to do. Aren't we trying to establish some form of ideological supremacy? May be I am too immature to write on such issues, may be there are readers who are more knowledgeable than us, who may be laughing at this discussion and may be there could be people who don't understand even a bit. You can raise doubts, I would counter them and the vice versa would also happen but where are we heading?

This thread could be productive if we engage in some form of constructive criticism rather than blaming, arguing and counter arguing or trying to establish whose points are correct or valid.


Dear Abhijit,

You can agree with whatever Vivekji had said about the middle class and upper class and they are true to some extent too. But you must also realize another fact. Most of the social movements in this world be it the French revolution or the Indian struggle for independence, everything has been started and sustained only by this middle class with a true motive of development.

The fact that BM had been started as a novel experiment is very true, but why do you have to see that as one which is bound to fail. The point where this mail thread had started was rightly named as rejuvenating BM and you can see it in that perspective also. You can see this as the demise of a movement called as BM or else you can see this as the resurgence of BM with fresh blood and more energy, overcoming the hitches it had faced in the past. The choice is open to you.

[Abhijit K]

Dear Surendran and all, (please read inline)

Dear Abhijit,

You can agree with whatever Vivekji had said about the middle class and upper class and they are true to some extent too. But you must also realize another fact. Most of the social movements in this world be it the French revolution or the Indian struggle for independence, everything has been started and sustained only by this middle class with a true motive of development.

I disagree with you here... middle classes played their role, but movements were always run by masses.. they owned them...  and I'm sorry, I can't debate in an email... it is jut not practical.

The fact that BM had been started as a novel experiment is very true, but why do you have to see that as one which is bound to fail. The point where this mail thread had started was rightly named as rejuvenating BM and you can see it in that perspective also. You can see this as the demise of a movement called as BM or else you can see this as the resurgence of BM with fresh blood and more energy, overcoming the hitches it had faced in the past. The choice is open to you.

BUM is a name. Names often have their own legacy and problems of the legacy. The spirit, thoughts behind,  and the actions make the difference. In that sense, I've continued to walk to path...  and trying to walk it better... and faster..  and I'm sure you are also walking the path.. someday we'll meet brother :)..

In solidarity,
Abhijit Minakshi.

[Abhijit K]

BM's ideology is theoretically flawed. Thats what I meant. I can't
debate on that in emails, sorry for that.

In solidarity with the cause of people,
Abhijit

On 11/1/07, Gopal Krishna <gopalkrish...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Abhijit Bhai: There is a difference between organization and ideology -
> there is a difference between organization's tactical failure and ideology's
> moral failure.
> So, the failure of BM that u talked about in ur mail, is tactical, political
> failure of organization and not ideology's moral failure.
>
> BM's ideology will survive as long as even one person can stake his all for
> it. So, we should wait for few more years before we can say that BM's
> ideology is a mistake/failure: who knows, the seeming darkness is harbinger
> of future light. At least, I am quite hopeful and will stake my all for BM's
> ideology in a "centralized-in-hands-of-fulltimers" type of
> organization, which can serve the ideology without dilution/ridicule for a
> very long period of time.
>
> Being the first person to join BM, i know what BM's real ideology was ( i
> put it down now for my next centralized organization here -
> http://gopalkrishna.mission.googlepages.com/CoreIdeology.doc
> ) and also know, how little BM's members understood or felt true
> commitment towards it and how when reminded about their lack of commitment,
> they reacted as if ideology was a matter of view of one person, who started
> the cause, and hence can be changed/modified, diluted/diverted with time by
> members, who consider themselves "more mature/practical/evolved" - such is
> the nature of human mind and its moral frailties .
>
> I assure all, in future there will be a rise for BM's ideology, possibly in
> a new structure/organization, and this time, enough "political intelligence
> and centralization in hands of fulltimers" will be employed to not allow any
> chance for "drama of maturity/practicality even on ideology" .
>
> Centralize , centralize and centralize the organization in hands of those
> rare few, who understands it fully and r fully devoted - the path of reform
> is not guided by law of majority, who have third-class devotion and
> third-class understanding of the cause, but by the law of few, the few who
> can stake all for the sake of cause. That is the great political and
> psychological lesson that I learnt after working in BM organization for 2.5
> years - and this is a very big and important lesson not only for pioneers of
> this cause but for society also .
>
> ready for brickbats :) but will not respond to such critics who themselves
> never understood BM's real ideology and never were humble enough to elevate
> themselves up to it rather than using their petty power to drag/dilute/mock
> the ideology .
>
> May God save every noble cause from pseudo-mature, worldly people. May all
> pioneers of such cause, be politically intelligent enough to protect the
> spirit of cause from pseudo-mature, worldly people. That's my only
> soul-deep prayer.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Gopal

> --
> Gopal Krishna
>
> B. Tech Computer Science, IIT Kanpur
> 1st year MS, UIUC
> ph: 1-217-819-0966
> Homepage: http://gopalkrishna.mission.googlepages.com

[Vivek Umrao Glendenning]

I think Gopal is improving himself as a thinker.
He wrote a nice mail. He has started to point out mistakes in process of
formation of BM as an organization.
May be Gopal will understand that I am a well-wisher of BM and in my core of
heart, I want to see BM as an Ideal Social Organization.
love
vivek

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Abhijit K" <abhi...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 11:11 AM
To: "Gopal Krishna" <gopalkrish...@gmail.com>
Cc: <BM_dis...@googlegroups.com>; "rupesh garg"
<rupesh...@gmail.com>; "BM Kamal Kishore Sharma" <kksh...@gmail.com>;
"Dr. Subba Reddy" <dr.s...@gmail.com>; "Santosh Nargund"
<spna...@yahoo.com>; "Saurabh Bharat" <saurabh...@gmail.com>; "Gaurav
Bharat" <gaurav....@gmail.com>; "Dr. Prahalathan KK"
<prahala...@gmail.com>; "Sundeep Jalan" <sundee...@yahoo.co.in>;
"Rishikesh" <rishikes...@gmail.com>; "Balajee Chandrasekaran"
<cbal...@gmail.com>; "Ravi Kant" <r...@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: [BM_discussion] Re: Gandhi, Marx etc :: Social Workings

coord...@localgovernance.org
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