certificate of birth ANTONIO DA ROSA MACHADO

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Orlando Venegas

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Apr 26, 2024, 12:27:22 PMApr 26
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Good afternoon, I wanted to know how I could obtain a certificate of birth for my great-grandfather, who was born in São Jorge on April 15, 1888, in Norte Grande, and I should try to investigate on my own in the records of Tombo and Azorean culture but there is no success, Please contact me if someone could help me.

Name: Antonio Da Rosa Machado (Possible Alternative name Antonio Joaquim Machado Machado)
Date of birth: April 15, 1888
Place of birth: Sao Jorge (probably from Norte Grande according to family information)

Father: Joaquim Antonio Da Rosa (possible alternative surname Machado)
Mother: Maria do Rosario Machado.
Older Brother: Joaquim Da Rosa Machado born in 1877

Cheri Mello

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Apr 26, 2024, 12:32:56 PMApr 26
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Hi Orlando,

Hover over: Maps, Databases, Indices
Pick: One of the items listed under Sao Jorge.

One of those should be able to help you.
Good luck,
Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada


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JR

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Apr 26, 2024, 7:21:38 PMApr 26
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Here is their marriage:

https://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SJR-VL-NORTEGRANDE-C-1870-1879/SJR-VL-NORTEGRANDE-C-1870-1879_item1/index.html?page=51

NS das Neves, Norte Grande, Ilha de Sao Jorge, 09 Jan 1875, casamentos, page 1, no-1 record.
Joaquim Antonio Julio da Roza, 31 anos, solteiro, trabalhador, morador no lugar de Norte Grande, filho natural de Julianna Roza [com] Maria do Rozario do Coracao de Jesus, 27 anos viuva de Bartholomeu Joze de Avelar, faleceu na freguezia de Santo Amaro onde [ela) moradora, empregado na governo de sua caza, filha de Manoel Antonio Machado e de Thereza Francisca, todos naturaes desta freguezia onde os nubentes foram baptisados.
--------------------------------------------
However, I was not able to find a single child born to this couple in the few years I looked. So my suggestion is that you go through the baptisms of Norte Grande, start with the end of 1875 through to about 1890 and see if there are any children for this couple. The marriage states Maria do Rosario was viuva and had her own house in Santo Amaro. So you should also look there for children.

JR

JR

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Apr 27, 2024, 2:01:39 AMApr 27
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Could not find Antonio, but here is Joaquim-

https://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SJR-VL-NORTEGRANDE-B-1880-1889/SJR-VL-NORTEGRANDE-B-1880-1889_item1/index.html?page=18

pages 18 & 19, record no-44, Norte Grande, ilha Sao Jorge baptismos
Joaquim, born, as nove horas de manha, 10-July-1880, bap- 18 July 1880, filho de Joaquim Antonio Julio da Rosa, trabalhador e Maria do Rosario do Coracao de Jesus, governo de sua casa, naturaes, recebidos, parochianos e moradores nesta freguezia no lugar do Norte Grande, a Canada de Igreja;
neto paterno de [Pai Incognito] e Julianna Roza e materno de Manoel Antonio Machado e Thereza Francisca;
Padrinhos, Manoel Silveira de Azevedo, trabalhador, morador nesta freguezia e madrinha, a invocacao de Nossa Senhora

JR

Bill Seidler

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Apr 29, 2024, 10:25:06 AMApr 29
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Orlando Venegas

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Apr 30, 2024, 3:09:52 AMApr 30
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incredible, I have no way to thank you, well we are getting closer to finding my great-grandfather, all this information is of utmost importance to me, thank you very much, if by chance I had any update on my great-grandfather Antonio, I would be very grateful to know

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JR

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Apr 30, 2024, 10:41:33 AMApr 30
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My suggestion is that you figure out when and where your grandfather, Antonio da Rosa Machado married and try to get his marriage certificate. He likely married some time between, 1908-1918, as he was born in 1888, as you said. His baptism is not in Norte Grande, so either it is missing, recorded at another time, or he may been baptised in another village. If the record is missing, as I suspect, then the marriage record will identify that fact and state what the church did to rectify the situation and where it is recorded. This does happen on occasion.

JR

Orlando Venegas

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Apr 30, 2024, 3:22:44 PMApr 30
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What happened is that Antonio Machado arrived in Costa Rica in 1911 and married, lived, and died in Costa Rica and never returned to Portugal.

El mar, 30 abr 2024 a la(s) 11:37 a.m., JR (jmr...@gmail.com) escribió:
My suggestion is that you figure out when and where your grandfather, Antonio da Rosa Machado married and try to get his marriage certificate. He likely married some time in the 1920's if he was born abt 1888, as you said. His baptism is not in Norte Grande, so either it is missing, recorded at another time, or he may been baptised in another village. If the record is missing, as I suspect, then the marriage record will identify that fact and state what the church did to rectify the situation and where it is recorded. This does happen on occasion.

JR

On Tuesday, April 30, 2024 at 3:09:52 AM UTC-4 Orlando Venegas wrote:


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Orlando Venegas Machado

JR

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Apr 30, 2024, 9:52:49 PMApr 30
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If you are certain about Antonio and Joaquim, and there is no mix-up or name variations for Antonio, then Antonio is definitely missing.

JR 

Orlando Venegas

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Apr 30, 2024, 10:34:09 PMApr 30
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Is there anything that can be done in these cases?  So if he got lost there is no way to confirm that Antonio is Portuguese, unless he can get the passport or ID number, right?

Cheri Mello

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Apr 30, 2024, 10:44:38 PMApr 30
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1) Isn't Costa Rica Catholic? Get his marriage from there. What does it say about where he was baptized?

2) Emigration out of the Azores is online here.
His closest ports are Angra and Horta. Search both for 1911. Then search Sao Miguel last. I have zero idea which port was used for Costa Rica.

3) A chance exists that he was baptized shortly before marriage because he wasn't baptized as a baby (maybe some illness, quarantine, etc).

4) Maybe your date is wrong.

5) Maybe he was baptized in another freguesia. Sao Jorge isn't all that big and individual researchers have banded together and created indices.

6) Maybe he went by Antonio, but his name is something else. I'd consider this last since you do have a date and there is room for a baby born to this couple in 1888.
Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

Orlando Venegas

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May 18, 2024, 4:07:45 PMMay 18
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Good afternoon, I have a member of my family currently in Sao Jorge, on the island where my Great-Grandfather was supposedly born, where could I go to consult or ask about a birth document? What suggestions do you give me?



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Orlando Venegas Machado

Cheri Mello

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May 18, 2024, 4:14:25 PMMay 18
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Hi Orlando,

I'm going to guess your great-grandfather was born before 1900. Those records have been scanned and digitized by the Azorean government.
2) Pick your concelho (like a county)
3) Pick your freguesia
4) Pick the baptism books that contain the year of your ancestor's birth.
Happy hunting,
Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

Orlando Venegas

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May 19, 2024, 9:29:55 AMMay 19
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I already did this and apparently he is not here, my Great-Grandfather moved to Costa Rica where he got married, so I couldn't consult a marriage record from the Azores because he didn't get married there, but I wanted to know if you know how to consult immigration records, I know that my Great-Grandfather He traveled to New York in 1909 to travel from there to Costa Rica. I don't know if at that time it was common to find out how to find the passport number in the Azores or how to verify entry to NY in 1909.



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Orlando Venegas Machado

Cheri Mello

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May 19, 2024, 9:52:47 AMMay 19
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Hi Orlando,

Everything in the Azores (as well as most of Europe) is organized on the town/village/freguesia level. You have to know the freguesia, an approximate birthdate, and his parents. Then you hunt through all the Antonios born to those parents born around that date (give or take a year or 2). So he's there, but you may be missing information that's preventing you from locating him (or have wrong information). You originally said your family thought he was *probably* from Norte Grande. Or he's not the age you think he is. Something is off, because you should be able to locate him. Even if your ancestor went over to the archives in Angra, they would do what you did - look in Norte Grande on 15 Apr 1888 and tell you he's not there. They don't do a search for you.

You can use Ancestry to search for your Antonio immigrating to New York in 1909, but there will be a lot of Antonio da Rosas or Antonio Machados to sort through. There my not be enough identifying information to figure out he's yours. It's also compounded by the fact that NY was not his final port (Costa Rica was) so they may not have counted him in NY because he didn't immigrate there.

You can search for him leaving the Azores (passaportes) - along with all the other Antonio da Rosa/Machados. People from Sao Jorge left from either Angra or Horta, as those are the closer ports. He could have left from Sao Miguel as well. It will be looking for a needle in a haystack. Those have been digitized and are online here:

I wouldn't use your strategy of looking at the passaportes. You are looking at people from multiple islands leaving the Azores. I'd interview family members to try to get alternate birthdates or locations. Or I'd go looking for the marriage of Antonio's parents. That would be less records to hunt through. Just my suggestion, do whatever you like.
Happy hunting,
Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

Cheri Mello

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May 19, 2024, 10:01:10 AMMay 19
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The parents' marriage is here, in Norte Grande. It is record #1 on the left.

So you have the wrong date for Antonio's birth. You need to expand your search beyond your date.
Happy hunting,
Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

Orlando Venegas

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May 19, 2024, 10:25:18 AMMay 19
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Yes, these would most likely be the parents, now why do you say I was wrong about Antonio's date? In the marriage certificate from Costa Rica it says that he was married in 1919 at the age of 31. If we do the math, he was born in 1888. If his parents got married in Norte Grande, wouldn't it be very likely that he was also born there?



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Orlando Venegas Machado

Orlando Venegas

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May 19, 2024, 10:25:32 AMMay 19
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All of these possible brothers of my Great-Grandfather, including Joaquim, who would probably be the same Brother who traveled with him to Costa Rica. Who the whole family knows as Granduncle Joaquim

https://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SJR-VL-NORTEGRANDE-O-1870-1879/SJR-VL-NORTEGRANDE-O-1870-1879_item1/index.html?page=70
 muerte de recién nacido varón 7 enero de 1876

https://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SJR-VL-NORTEGRANDE-B-1870-1879/SJR-VL-NORTEGRANDE-B-1870-1879_item1/index.html?page=186 Manuel nacido el 31 de diciembre de 1876

https://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SJR-VL-NORTEGRANDE-B-1880-1889/SJR-VL-NORTEGRANDE-B-1880-1889_item1/index.html?page=18 Joaquim nace el 10 de julio de 1880

https://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SJR-VL-NORTEGRANDE-B-1880-1889/SJR-VL-NORTEGRANDE-B-1880-1889_item1/index.html?page=84 Teresa nació el 17 de enero de 1883

https://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SJR-VL-NORTEGRANDE-B-1880-1889/SJR-VL-NORTEGRANDE-B-1880-1889_item1/index.html?page=149 María nació el 17 de enero de 1886.

https://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SJR-VL-NORTEGRANDE-B-1890-1899/SJR-VL-NORTEGRANDE-B-1890-1899_item1/index.html?page=4 João nació el 18 de febrero de 1890


El dom, 19 may 2024 a la(s) 11:01 a.m., Cheri Mello (gfsc...@gmail.com) escribió:


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Orlando Venegas Machado

Orlando Venegas

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May 19, 2024, 10:25:53 AMMay 19
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You clearly have more experience than me and I appreciate all the help you can give me or the recommendations you could give me, because to me it doesn't make much sense that the entire family was born in this place and he wasn't. At least these weren't the parents and siblings.
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Orlando Venegas Machado

Cheri Mello

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May 19, 2024, 11:13:22 AMMay 19
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Here's an earlier message containing information about the older brother, Joaquim:
image.png

Now you posted a list of siblings, including Joaquim:
image.png

You can see the discrepancy, correct?

I'd expand the search for Antonio. Maybe he thought he was 31, but he wasn't.

How did you come up with the list of siblings?

I wouldn't go switching freguesias until you exhaust Norte Grande. I don't think 5 kids (or even 6 kids) is enough for a couple having kids in the 1870s-1890s. You're missing some siblings. I wouldn't be looking for Antonio. I'd be searching for all children of Joaquim Antonio Julio da Rosa and Maria do Rosario do Coração de Jesus first. That would give me a better timeline to look for gaps in babies. I did see on their marriage that Maria's first husband died in the next freguesia over, in Santo Amaro. Even though the parents, Joaquim and Maria are from Norte Grande, maybe they went over to Santo Amaro for some reason (sick family member, work related business) and your Antonio was born there. The last resort is that maybe he wasn't baptized until much, much later (maybe due to natural disasters, epidemic, quarantine, etc). But I'd exhaust Norte Grande first.

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

Orlando Venegas

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May 19, 2024, 1:21:46 PMMay 19
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Thanks, I will follow these tips to see what we can find.



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Orlando Venegas Machado

Cheri Mello

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May 19, 2024, 2:00:19 PMMay 19
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I checked Santo Amaro for 1887-1889 inclusive and did not find your Antonio.

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

JR

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May 19, 2024, 2:31:51 PMMay 19
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Where would people on Sao Jorge apply for a passport? Perhaps an entry was made there that would explain what was done for Antonio, and/or his family.

JR

Cheri Mello

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May 19, 2024, 2:47:58 PMMay 19
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The most common ports for those emigrating from Sao Jorge island are Angra or Horta. I guess it just depended on where on lived on Sao Jorge and how soon you wanted to leave:
image.png

I've seen a few from Sao Jorge leaving from Ponta Delgada on Sao Miguel too.

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

Orlando Venegas

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May 19, 2024, 3:49:26 PMMay 19
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I don't know, I don't have any information about the passport, the only thing I know is that apparently in 1910 they arrived in New York and in January 1911 they arrived in Costa Rica.



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Orlando Venegas Machado

Cheri Mello

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May 19, 2024, 3:51:49 PMMay 19
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Well, in your previous email, he arrived in 1909 and now you state 1910. It's going to be hard to help until you get actual documentation of stuff.
image.png

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

Orlando Venegas

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May 19, 2024, 4:15:16 PMMay 19
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Cheri, it was a mistake in the previous email, I typed it wrong, obviously I am asking for help through this medium because I do not have concrete information and Costa Rica is a small and poorly organized country, do not take my comment the wrong way but I am here humbly asking for help, but you feel that you are just wanting to see the negative points. As I said before, you have MORE experience and I accept the recommendations.



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Orlando Venegas Machado

Cheri Mello

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May 19, 2024, 4:28:57 PMMay 19
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OK, but it's hard to tell you made a mistake when in one email you state 1909 and the other email you state 1910. From a reader's point of view, it looks like you are mixed up. I'm not being negative. You stated 2 different years and I had no idea what to think. So I have to point out the 2 different years or you won't get the correct help.
Too bad there's not much for Costa Rica.
Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

Orlando Venegas

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May 19, 2024, 4:39:12 PMMay 19
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To give you an idea, my Antonio's marriage certificate indicates that he married at the age of 31 in 1919 (so we think he was born in 1888), and on the death certificate they indicate that he died at the age of 77 in 1974 (Here supposedly would have been born in 1897). So this is Costa Rica's problem, which is why I try to bring the most truthful information possible but it is difficult if the official documents have errors.



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Orlando Venegas Machado

Cheri Mello

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May 19, 2024, 4:54:35 PMMay 19
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OK, so you have quite a range to search then. Two documents with very different information. He wasn't alive at his death to state his age, so that info is coming from someone else. How old was his wife at his marriage (he was claiming to be 31). Maybe he was fudging his age because of her age.

I have searched Norte Grande from 1884 to 1899 and haven't found an Antonio born to a Joaquim Antonio Julio da Rosa and Maria do Rosario.
Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

Orlando Venegas

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May 19, 2024, 5:10:42 PMMay 19
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Antonio Da Rosa - 31 age
Married: 06-19-1919
image.png

Death 
Antonio died in 1974, at the age of 77 (which would mean he was born in 1897).image.png






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Orlando Venegas Machado

JR

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May 19, 2024, 9:11:27 PMMay 19
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I would go by the stated age when Antonio married. After all, you have an exact date for his birth. Many Obito ages are notorious for being inaccurate - estimates at best.
Another point, do you have any idea when he arrived in the US or Costa Rica, so that you can narrow down the timeline when searching for passport info. He must have some kind of identity or citizenship certificate. I still think that is your best bet. It will help establish whether his birth place and birth date is correct or not. If correct, then it means his baptism is missing. 

JR

Orlando Venegas

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May 21, 2024, 12:28:04 PMMay 21
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If in a family memory, they indicated that he arrived in Costa Rica in January 1911, and from what a grandson of my Great-Grandfather said, he and his brother Joaquim spent a few months in New York when they arrived in 1910, I don't know if it is possible to verify the entry into NY in 1910?



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Orlando Venegas Machado

JR

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May 21, 2024, 2:04:20 PMMay 21
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Go here and do a search. You may have to search both Horta and Angra do Heroismo in th period before 1912.
https://www.culturacores.azores.gov.pt/ig/passaportes/Default.aspx

The other place you can try is Family Search.com. Set up an account and do a search. They may be able to help.

JR

Cheri Mello

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May 21, 2024, 10:45:15 PMMay 21
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Orlando,

If they entered America and lived in America, yes, you might be able to find them. Maybe.

You can use Ancestry.com. If you don't have a subscription, a public library might have a subscription so you can search for free (at least in America you can search in a public library). Also, Family History Centers have Ancestry and you can search for free there (at least in America).

You can also try the Ellis Island/Statue of Liberty website: https://heritage.statueofliberty.org/

HOWEVER, you'll have to play around with the spelling (Surname: Da Rosa Machado, Rosa Machado, Rosa, da Rosa, Machado) and have lots of fun spelling Joaquim. I'm guessing the older brother is listed first. You can also try wildcard searches by using the asterisk in place of a letter or group of letters.

The indexing of American records of those of Portuguese descent is poor. Stories exist that it was outsourced to China, Sri Lanka, or American high school students who didn't care. And now we have AI. Who knows if any of those stories are true. You are probably better off taking JR's suggestion and wading through the Azorean passaportes for both Angra and Horta.

Happy hunting,
Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

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