John Manuel Leal (b. circa 1800 Pico Island, m. 1822 NB Canada) ... where is he from?

[Rod Savoie]

Wondering if anyone has real knowledge facts about how "John Manuel Leal" arrived in Canada? And have his parents from the Azores Islands been identified? We know he married Vénérande Martin on Sep 10 1822, and she was born on Apr 16 1803 to Anselme Martin and Marie Fournier. Those two records are linked below.

1. Marriage record
2. Brith record
   

I used Leal as the last name as that was most likely his surname. You will see different versions like Lialle. Lyard, or Ignal (in local records) ... and eventually the surname Manuel was adopted. The variations are likely due to Portuguese to French to English translations and misspellings due to lack of literacy. So João Manoel Leal could have been his original name. And here are some facts.

My uncle Arthur Savoie shows 5% Portuguese ancestry (Ancestry DNA kit) specifically from Pico Island in the Azores (according to Ancestry.ca).

1. On the marriage certificate, John Manuel Leal's parents are listed as Manuel Leal (or whatever variation can be read from the record), and his mother as Marie De Spirito Santo (which was likely Maria do Espirito Santo).
2. That was very common apparently as women usually only adopted second names once married?, and the first born were usually Manuel or Manoel for a first born son, and Maria for a first born daughter, or so I've been told by someone from the Azores).
3. In several other local records, it is stated that he is Portuguese and arrived in Canada in 1815. If this is true, he could have been from one of the Swiss regiments that came to Canada to support the British in the War of 1812. After the war, several of the people from those regiments were offered land here in Canada.
4. Other Portuguese people did arrive in Baie Sainte Anne, NB, Canada at about the same time (Fer(r)era's, Per(r)eira's and others).
5. It says on this link that the first Manuel's arrived in Baie Sainte Anne in 1825, but that is obviously wrong given the contemporaneous marriage record.
6. Through both my ftDNA (https://www.familytreedna.com/) and MyHeritage (https://www.myheritage.com/), I have found over 10 individuals who have always lived in the Azores Islands and are 4th or 5th cousins of mine, and Leal comes up as well as Manuel and Espirito Santo as common names or surnames (among others like Dutra, Fagundes, Jorge ...).
7. This is from one of those distant cousins "What is very interesting is that it matches my DNA. I was born in Madalena, Pico Azores. Antonio Dutra Martins is an ancestor from my paternal side. Most of the Dutra Martins are from Criação Velha, in Criação Velha there are a lot of Leal."

So ... any real knowledge out there? Is it possible to find out about this person?

Thanks!

Rod

 

[Cheri Mello]

Hi Rod,

I will write in between in this color.

I used Leal as the last name as that was most likely his surname. You will see different versions like Lialle. Lyard, or Ignal (in local records) ... and eventually the surname Manuel was adopted. The variations are likely due to Portuguese to French to English translations and misspellings due to lack of literacy. So João Manoel Leal could have been his original name.

I have no idea where you live, so I don't know what are "local records." Leal is Leal. Manuel (Manoel - old spelling) *could* be a surname.

My uncle Arthur Savoie shows 5% Portuguese ancestry (Ancestry DNA kit) specifically from Pico Island in the Azores (according to Ancestry.ca).

Download his raw data and create accounts both on Family Tree DNA (FTDNA) and My Heritage and see what you get there. If you need detailed instructions, email me and I'll send them.

1. On the marriage certificate, John Manuel Leal's parents are listed as Manuel Leal (or whatever variation can be read from the record), and his mother as Marie De Spirito Santo (which was likely Maria do Espirito Santo). OK, if his dad is a Leal, then yeah, he's João Manuel Leal (modern spelling) and yes, in the Azores, she'd be Maria do Espirito Santo.
   
2. That was very common apparently as women usually only adopted second names once married?, and the first born were usually Manuel or Manoel for a first born son, and Maria for a first born daughter, or so I've been told by someone from the Azores). Women got their 2nd (usually religious or devotional name) at confirmation I think. Women in that time period didn't have surnames (you are in the 2nd time period). The first born male could be a Manuel (Manoel - old spelling). If he died, they could have named a different son Manuel. As for Maria, families had multiple Marias. The eldest typically went by Maria and the others went by their middle religious names.
   
3. In several other local records, it is stated that he is Portuguese and arrived in Canada in 1815. If this is true, he could have been from one of the Swiss regiments that came to Canada to support the British in the War of 1812. After the war, several of the people from those regiments were offered land here in Canada. I'm not Canadian. Maybe others on this list know.
   
4. Other Portuguese people did arrive in Baie Sainte Anne, NB, Canada at about the same time (Fer(r)era's, Per(r)eira's and others). Same as 4. I have no knowledge since I'm American.
   
5. It says on this link that the first Manuel's arrived in Baie Sainte Anne in 1825, but that is obviously wrong given the contemporaneous marriage record. I'd be searching with the surname of Leal.
   
6. Through both my ftDNA (https://www.familytreedna.com/) and MyHeritage (https://www.myheritage.com/), I have found over 10 individuals who have always lived in the Azores Islands and are 4th or 5th cousins of mine, and Leal comes up as well as Manuel and Espirito Santo as common names or surnames (among others like Dutra, Fagundes, Jorge ...). OK, you should still transfer your uncle's DNA as well. He's one more generation back. Espirito Santo is not a surname. Many newbies don't know that and enter it as a surname.
   
7. This is from one of those distant cousins "What is very interesting is that it matches my DNA. I was born in Madalena, Pico Azores. Antonio Dutra Martins is an ancestor from my paternal side. Most of the Dutra Martins are from Criação Velha, in Criação Velha there are a lot of Leal." If you want to start looking there, go right ahead.
   

You should transfer your uncle to FTDNA, join the Azores DNA project and then email me with your and his kit numbers. I'm the admin there and I might be able to point you in a better direction.

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

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[Rod Savoie]

Hi Cheri,

Awesome comments / answers! And here are some responses to your points.

1. Where I live?
   1. Eastern Canada. Here is the Google Maps link where the "Manuals" landed and "Populated": Baie Saint Anne, NB, Canada. I live in Dieppe, NB ... an hour or so south of there (my local ancestors come from there and north of there).
   2. This is mostly a francophone region.
   3. Local records were kept by parishes / priests mostly. At the time, mostly English people kept the records since they "won the war". So records were written by English people listening to French (usually illiterate) people. Lots of misspellings, especially when you bring Portuguese people in the mix, lol.  
2. Data has been uploaded to both ftDNA and MyHeritage.
   1. On ftDNA
      1. Arthur Savoie (my uncle), kit #: B962523
      2. Rod Savoie (me), kit #: B961639
   2. On MyHeritage
      1. Rod Savoie, kit #:  AN-A1596B.
      2. Arthur Savoie ... just uploaded it, kit #  AN-723B58 ("results expected in 5-7 days").
3. Agree about the Manuel and Maria comments, that's also what I was told by someone from the Azores.
4. Is his dad really a Leal? Well, that's an educated guess based on the fact that other written forms are not really present in the Azores (Ignal, Lialle, Lyard, ...). Again, likely misunderstood names with bad handwriting. 
5. The Swiss Regiments were De Meuron and De Watteville  (Book Review: Fighting under the British Banner. The Swiss Book Review: Fighting under the British Banner. The Swiss Regiments de Watteville and de Meuron on the Fronts of the Regiments de Watteville and de Meuron on the Fronts of the Niagara and Montreal Niagara and Montreal).
6. As you pointed out, I figured that Espirito Santo was not a "real" surname, but that's what people recorded back then. 

Much appreciate your response and help!

[Cheri Mello]

I will write in between again. Your formatting adds extra numbers and stuff and sticks with the outline form. So you'll just have to look for this color.

1. Where I live?
   Eastern Canada. Here is the Google Maps link where the "Manuals" landed and "Populated": Baie Saint Anne, NB, Canada. I live in Dieppe, NB ... an hour or so south of there (my local ancestors come from there and north of there). You have documented them on paper to a specific location in Canada? And all of your paper trail said Manuel for a surname? I'd be searching for both Manuel and Leal (and your local variations as well as the Portuguese variation of Manoel). You want to leave no stone unturned.
   This is mostly a francophone region. OK, French is a romance language too.
   
   1. Local records were kept by parishes / priests mostly. At the time, mostly English people kept the records since they "won the war". So records were written by English people listening to French (usually illiterate) people. Lots of misspellings, especially when you bring Portuguese people in the mix, lol.  Keep a list of every spelling variation that you find and run those through your searches in your records in your country.
      

1. Data has been uploaded to both ftDNA and MyHeritage.

1. 1. On ftDNA
      1. Arthur Savoie (my uncle), kit #: B962523

1. 1. 1. Rod Savoie (me), kit #: B961639  You need to join the Azores DNA Project so I can view your page. Directions at the bottom of this email.
         
   2. On MyHeritage

1. 1. 1. Rod Savoie, kit #:  AN-A1596B.

1. 1. 1. Arthur Savoie ... just uploaded it, kit #  AN-723B58 ("results expected in 5-7 days"). My Heritage does not have projects. We'd have to schedule a Google Meet or something where your could share your screen and show me your matches and stuff. Also, you should unlock at least your uncles too. The auto cluster tool there could provide clues.
         
2. Is his dad really a Leal? Well, that's an educated guess based on the fact that other written forms are not really present in the Azores (Ignal, Lialle, Lyard, ...). Again, likely misunderstood names with bad handwriting. Yes, the Azores have written records going back to the 1500s in some freguesias. In the Azores, the spellings of Ignal, Lialle, and Lyard don't exist. In your time period, the spellings are Manoel and Leal. They exist. You will find those spellings in the Azores. You won't see the others.
   
3. As you pointed out, I figured that Espirito Santo was not a "real" surname, but that's what people recorded back then. In the Azores, Espirito Santo is never recorded as surname.
   

DIRECTIONS TO JOIN THE AZORES PROJECT AT FTDNA:

Log into the FTDNA page with the kit number and password.

Across the top is says: myFTDNA, DNA Tests, Projects....Point at Projects. When the drop down menu appears, click "Join a project."

If the Azores Islands appears on the top, click the link and scroll down to the JOIN button at the end.

If the Azores Islands is not suggested, scroll down to where it says "Search by Surname" and type: azores.

When Azores Islands appears, click the link and follow the directions.      

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/azores/b677d11b-fc85-4c54-8217-cb62c016eb82n%40googlegroups.com.

[Rod Savoie]

Hi Cheri,

Your points in blue and my responses, to simply things :)

You have documented them on paper to a specific location in Canada? And all of your paper trail said Manuel for a surname? I'd be searching for both Manuel and Leal (and your local variations as well as the Portuguese variation of Manoel). You want to leave no stone unturned.

Yes, across many documents actually. And by 1851, the first census across Canada (well, it wasn't yet Canada, but across the territories), they had already adopted Manuel as the surname. Here is the link to the 1851 Census document for the family. There is a big error on there since they list "Venerant Manuel" as a Male but it was actually Vénérande Martin, John Manuel (Leal)'s widow. Many other documents prove that it is her and not him. It is a very specific region in Canada (50 mins from where I currently live). In the 1861 Census they were listed as "Emanuels" but in subsequent censuses (1871, 1891 ...), it was all Manuels.

There were Leal's in my province of New Brunswick in 1851 (a family of 6). But it turns out that was a misspelling / reading. In all future censuses they are "Leek" or "Leak". 

Keep a list of every spelling variation that you find and run those through your searches in your records in your country.

Yes, that has been done by others, but none of them appear in any of Canada's Censuses. Prior to 1851 you can see those names through various spellings, but the stopped being used it seems after about 1850.

You need to join the Azores DNA Project so I can view your page. Directions at the bottom of this email.

Done. Both my uncle and I.

My Heritage does not have projects. We'd have to schedule a Google Meet or something where your could share your screen and show me your matches and stuff. Also, you should unlock at least your uncles too. The auto cluster tool there could provide clues.

Yes, I will work on that and get the matches ... starting work again tomorrow after two weeks off, so likely next weekend. 

Yes, the Azores have written records going back to the 1500s in some freguesias. In the Azores, the spellings of Ignal, Lialle, and Lyard don't exist. In your time period, the spellings are Manoel and Leal. They exist. You will find those spellings in the Azores. You won't see the others.

Yep! I had done those searches too, and thanks for confirming!

[Cheri Mello]

Hi Rod,

OK, if your paper trail says the surname was Manuel, how did you come up with Leal?

And how did you come up with Pico? Your uncle's FTDNA matches are researching Pico, but I'm finding your matches are researching Sao Jorge, Flores, and one Sao MIguel researcher. So what is pointing you to Pico?

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/azores/7a2af0ed-6f45-40e9-91b8-71e933222072n%40googlegroups.com.

[Rod Savoie]

Hi again Cheri,

I got "Leal", from his "Marriage record". It's the bottom of the second page. It reads John Manuel Ly?? in the left margin, and John Manuel Ly??d in the main text. His father's name is listed as Manuel Lyard (but with what appears to be scribbled corrections). This is a contemporaneous record from 1822 (10th of September) and it says that his parents are Portuguese. I am also just noticing now that he is listed as "fils majeur", and at that time, that meant at least 25 years old (whereas she is under 25 since she is listed as "fille mineure"). According to this, he was born in 1797 or earlier.

Regarding "Lyard" vs "Leal", I can easily see that Portuguese pronunciation of Leal turn into either Lyard or Lialle in French. I do recollect seing "Leal" in another old document but will have to find that again. And yes, the matches seem to lead to those places. But, that's where I am stuck :). I am related people from Pico, and have communicated with Manuel (Manny) Martins (although I realize I never responded to his last email several months ago). Not sure that these are all from Pico below, but I believe some are. So what is pointing me to Pico? My uncle's results ... but I have seen relationships to other parts of the Azores. 

• DNA match to Maria Adelina Martins (born Jorge) and her profile is here: Maria Adelina Martins (born Jorge)
• DNA match to Antonio Homem Jorge and his profile is here: Antonio Homem Jorge
  
• DNA match to Alice da Silva Costa
  
• DNA match to Ana Isabel Antunes Oliveira
  
• DNA match to Diogo Carlos Morgado Pina
  
• ... there are others
• And finally Manuel Martins' ftDNA Tree ... and I have a lot of Dutra and Jorge matches on ftDNA (see below as well). 

It was Manny Martins who had written to me in an email: "What is very interesting is that it matches my DNA. I was born in Madalena, Pico Azores. Antonio Dutra Martins is an ancestor from my paternal side.  Most of the Dutra Martins are from Criação Velha, in  Criação  Velha there are a lot of Leal".

Also, can you view this page? Arthur Savoie's origins on Ancestry.com? If not, I can send an image ... it says my uncle is 4% Portuguese and specifies Pico as the likely source. 

[Cheri Mello]

Hi Rod,

I can't see the marriage record. Can you post the image or explain what website and your search parameters so we can navigate to it?

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/azores/8998126d-fe12-43d8-b042-28281d5670b1n%40googlegroups.com.

[Jen Murphy]

Hello again Cousin Rod (we met on Facebook),  I see you haven't gotten much further than i have on this journey. I've attached Jean's marriage. for you as i had it handy, and was digging into the past anyways today.   His father's name is on line six right-hand side. 

Not to complicate things even more for you.. but... I often wonder the origins of our Martins... Maybe it is assumed they came from France? Acadian.org states that they don't know for sure.. no proof to be sure.  We do know that fishermen from the Azores have been fishing our coasts in Canada for a while. We also know they traveled inland before the Acadians came. ( https://blockhouse124.rssing.com/chan-63940472/all_p4.html )  Both Jean Manuel and Luis Sippley ( aka  Luis Joachim Ferreria - Cheri - you found Luis' parents marriage record for me a year or so ago) married Amand Martin's granddaughters.  Also.. Maybe just a coincidence... did you know about the ship (Ruby) that crashed off the coast of Picos during the expulsion? Helene Martin (Luis's wife) great-grandfather was on it, Jean Clement Vincent. (Yet another coincidence.. i used to live on the very same land he was deported from in Falmouth, NS)

Cheri - other names used on the census as middle or last names among Jean's children include Ignal, Haille, Leil, and Laille, which makes you think that Leal might be what that scribble is supposed to say in a day when literacy wasn't so abundant.  My ancestor picked Manuel as their last name going by Maxime Liel Manuel, and married Luis's daughter Victoria.  

(there was also a name that looked like Manoel on the bottom of Tome Ferreira's marriage.   Ive attached that too. If Luis & Jean traveled together, maybe their families knew each other.)

~ Jen

[Rod Savoie]

Well, hello again cousin Jen, nice to see you here!

Some of this is fascinating. I had also surmised that Sippley was the name eventually adopted by the descendants of Luis Joachim Ferreira (and I also believe that was his name, or the one that he used at the time). Regarding that Portuguese document, do you have all the other names from that document? Was Eugenia the surname of “Francisca”? Has someone translated that document in English?

Regarding the Martins, I do know that several of them were in Port Royal as of 1651 and beyond. Were they French? Or others that joined the French settlement? Not sure. By just by the limited number of DNA segment matches, I believe that they are of French origin (I have a lot of them in my family tree, so I would expect to see more non French segments in my DNA). But I will definitely read the blockhouse link, seems fascinating! Especially that Alvares, Fagundes, de Souza are all family names that show up in the trees of several of my DNA matches 😊 (more hear on that: The Lost Colony (backyardhistory.ca)). Here are the first and other censuses in Acadia and mostly Port Royal: 1671 Acadian Census (wikitree.com) and ACADIAN CENSUS (acadian-home.org).

Just like you, I believe that John Manuel Leal and Luis Joachim Ferreira were “travelling together” and arrived there at the same time, in about 1815 (that date shows up a lot as to when they arrived in Baie Saint Anne). I do have to learn DNA Triangulation and how it works. I have found several triangulated results for both myself and my uncle Arthur.

Inn my case (MyHeritage AN-A1596B), I have the following triangulated segment (among others):

• Juan Carlo Tapia
• Antonio Homem Jorge
• Maria Adelina Jorge

And for those, the nearest common ancestors are : Joao Homem Jorge (1809 to 1902) married to Ana Maria Coracao Jesus Rodrigues (1824 to 1904). If I understand things correctly, any one of their children would have a common ancestor with John Manuel Leal (or whatever his name was) given that he is my only Portuguese ancestor (beyond his kids) in Canada.

My uncle, Arthur Savoie (MyHeritage AN-723B58), for example, has a triangulated segment with:

• Pedigree tree - Jacó Web Site - MyHeritage
• Pedigree tree - Silva Ferreira Web Site - MyHeritage
• Pedigree tree - de Almeida Web Site - MyHeritage

Not enough people have elaborated family trees 😊.

[Rod Savoie]

Hi again Jen,

Someone from the Azores (Manuel Martins) is asking where that marriage record comes from for Luis Joachim's parents? Would you have the source link?

On Monday, January 8, 2024 at 7:13:48 PM UTC-4 Jen Murphy wrote: