antónia pimentel-nordeste/são Miguel

[Fábio Márquez]

Hello, my dears!
In chapter 27 of Rodrigo Rodrigues' book on the descendants of GONÇALO DIAS CORREIA AND HIS BROTHER JÁCOME DIAS CORREIA, 

in section 16, beginning with Manuel Raposo Pimentel, Captain, and in note 7 regarding his son, Ensign Francisco Raposo de Pimentel,

 married to Margarida Cesar, the names of this couple's children are given:
- Alexandre Raposo Pimentel, "Purple"
- Teresa Soares
- Bárbara Raposo
- Maria Raposo Pimentel
- Isabel
and that's it! Mean while, I found an ancestor of mine named Antónia Raposa Pimentel, with her birth and marriage records below:

https://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SMG-ND-SAOJORGE-B-1675-1706/SMG-ND-SAOJORGE-B-1675-1706_item1/index.html?page=108

https://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SMG-PV-MAEDEDEUS-C-1712-1766/SMG-PV-MAEDEDEUS-C-1712-1766_item1/index.html?page=89

My question is: could it have been that Mr. Rodrigo Rodrigues omitted this person? Is Antónia in fact this couple's daughter?

I need help from someone more experienced in the group to help me.

[David Furtado]

Hello Fabio,

Yes, he did not include all of the siblings for what ever reason ?

David 

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Azores Genealogy" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to azores+un...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/azores/CAN%3DQnBxf5hzG%3DCXLKdTJzZb2vaz1T_V5_Z7x5bPfpeK3wZRhfw%40mail.gmail.com.

[John JMR]

I don't think RR missed much. He had a lot of colleagues to check his work. Just remember if RR did not have evidence to support any possible links, then he would leave things blank. He was the one that plowed through all those civil and property records. Very few people would even attempt that kind of work.

The early Pimentels were a very important family. However there were a few branches - some related, some apparently not- and that, along with lack of records, is what makes it so difficult to link them up. In your case pay close attention to the godparents, they may give you clues- or not. I have a Pimentel which belongs to lesser known Pimentel branch and I have never beeen able to link them up to the Joao Afonso Pimentel- the progenitor.

[Fábio Márquez]

 I thought it was a HUGE coincidence that Antónia Rapoza Pimentel was mentioned at her wedding as the daughter of Ensign Francisco Rapozo Pimentel and Margarida de Cesar, just as at Antónia's baptism, the same couple appeared, and all of this occurred in the Northeast.

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/azores/9415d162-4aa6-47b3-8d50-7ce01576d282n%40googlegroups.com.

[John JMR]

Yes it's in her wedding record-

https://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SMG-PV-MAEDEDEUS-C-1712-1766/SMG-PV-MAEDEDEUS-C-1712-1766_item1/index.html?page=89

page 83, 14-Dec-1726, casamentos de Mae de Deus da Povoacao
Antonio Netto viuvo de Maria Moniz Vieira com Antonia Rapoza Pimentel filha de Alferes Francisco Rapozo and Margarida de Cesar, ja defunta freguezes de Sao Jorge do Nordeste onde a contrahente foi baptizada.

[MaryAnn Santos]

Hi John,

Ages ago, you provided me with a wealth of information about my family line, the Rodrigues de Mello from Lombinha da Maia and Nordeste, for which I am most grateful. I have finally retired and now have the time to pick up where I left off, and I wonder if you can confirm something.

My Reunion family tree indicates that my maternal grandfather, António Rodrigues de Mello, descends from Capitão João O Velho Affonso de Pimental. I don't know if this is fact or wishful thinking.

António Rodrigues de Melloborn: 29 Apr 1875

CCA Registos Paroquiais Maia, DES, Ribeira Grande, São Miguel Baptisms

1870-1879>1875>0014 middle left #35

Legitimate son first of this name

Father: Manuel Rodgrigues de Mello

Mother: Margarida de Jesus Moniz

Paternal Grandparents: Manuel Rodrigues and Ignacia de Mello

Maternal Grandparents: António Muniz  Affonso and Maria da Estrella

Godparents: António Ignacio Lopes campones and Maria do Rosario married (casados)

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/azores/17260676-cf4d-4f07-9094-38b3dd65781an%40googlegroups.com.

--

MaryAnn Santos

[John JMR]

As a matter a fact the Rodrigues Melo  line does go back to Joao Afonso Pimentel.

[MaryAnn Santos]

Sorry, I accidentally sent an unfinished email to you.

I'll start over from the beginning... 

Ages ago, you provided me with a wealth of information about my family line, the Rodrigues de Mello line from Lombinha da Maia and Nordeste, for which I am most grateful. I have finally retired and now have the time to pick up where I left off, and I wonder if you can confirm any of the following information.

My Reunion family tree indicates that my maternal grandfather, António Rodrigues de Mello, descends from Capitão João O Velho Affonso de Pimental. I don't know if this is fact or wishful thinking. 

Best regards,

MaryAnn Santos

My maternal grandfather:

António Rodrigues de Mello born: 29 Apr 1875

CCA Registos Paroquiais Maia, DES, Ribeira Grande, São Miguel Baptisms

1870-1879>1875>0014 middle left #35

Legitimate son first of this name

Married on 9 Nov 1904, by Father M.A. Silva, 185 Canal Street, Fall River, Massachusetts, USA, Civil (Record, State of Massachusetts) to Ermelinda Leite Barbosa, born 10 Aug 1882, DES, Maia, Ribeira Grande, Sao Miguel, Azores. 

Father: Manuel Rodgrigues de Mello, born 15 Nov 1834, Maia, DES, Ribeira Grande, São Miguel

Mother: Margarida de Jesus Moniz, born 8 May 1841, Santissima Salvador, Ribeirinha, Ribeira Grande, Sao Miguel, Azores

Maternal Grandfather: António Muniz

Maternal Grandmother: Maria da Estrella

Godparents: António Ignacio Lopes campones and Maria do Rosario married (casados)

Paternal Grandfather: Manuel Rodrigues, born 12 Jun 1792, Maia, DES, Ribeira Grande, São Miguel

Paternal Grandmother: Ignacia de Mello, born 28 Apr 1793, Maia, DES, Ribeira Grande,Sao Miguel, Azores

 Ignacia de Mello, daughter of Sebastião Manuel de Mello born, 12 Apr 1751, Maia, DES, Ribeira Grande, Sao Miguel, Azores, and Maria Antónia Amaral born, 18 Feb 1757, Maia, DES, Ribeira Grande, Sao Miguel, Azores

Sebastião Manuel de Mello, son of João de Mello, born 13 Nov 1712, Maia, DES, Ribeira Grande, São Miguel, Azores, and Francisca Margarida de Medeiros or Matos, born about 1712, São Pedro, Ribeira Seca, São Miguel, Azores

João de Mello, son of Domingos Bulhao de Mello, born 21 Sep 1684, DES, Maia, Ribeira Grande, Sao Miguel, Azores, and Dona Maria Francisca de Resendes,  born 16 Dec 1679, Sao Jorge, Nordeste, Sao Miguel, Azores

Dona Maria Francisca de Resendes, daughter of Pedro da Costa Gregório Chaino, born 10 Dec 1646, Sao Jorge, Nordeste, Lomba da Cruz, Sao Miguel, Azores, and Barbara Jácome Raposo, born bef 27 May 1657 Sao Jorge, Nordeste, Lomba da Cruz, Sao Miguel, Azores (page torn where birth date would be).

Barbara Jácome Raposo, daughter of Capitão Bras Raposo Pimentel, baptized 22 Mar 1618, São Jorge, Nordeste, São Miguel, Açores, and Apolonia Brandão de Teve, born 5 May 1620, São Jorge, Nordeste, São Miguel, Açores, Portugal.

Capitão Bras Raposo Pimentel, son of Capitão Francisco Raposo Pimentel, born 27 Mar 1594, Sao Jorge, Nordeste, Sao Miguel, Azores, and Maria de Sintres or Sintra born, Sao Jorge, Nordeste, Sao Miguel, Azores.

Capitão Francisco Raposo Pimentel, son of Gaspar Manuel de Pimentel, born Agua Retorta of Faial da Terra and Ana Jácome Raposa, born São Jorge, Nordeste, São Miguel, Azores.

Gaspar Manuel de Pimentel, son of Gaspar Manuel da Costa, born, NS da Graca, Faial da Terra, residence Vila Franca do Campo and Nordeste, Sao Miguel, Azores, oldest son and inheritor, O Bocarro and Clara Affonso born about 1500,  Sao Jorge, Nordeste, Sao Miguel, Azores.

Gaspar Manuel da Costa son ofand Catarina Manuel

--

MaryAnn Santos

[MaryAnn Santos]

Thank you, John, for confirming this. Now I need to review and make sure I got the details correct.

 Best regards,

MaryAnn

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/azores/65a36367-4902-4415-97ae-206993253488n%40googlegroups.com.

--

MaryAnn Santos

[Donna Hinson]

Note:  I've piggybacked on John's note that includes other notes. 

I've saved a number of this group's emails regarding the Pimentel line because my grandmother was from Ponta Garca, Sao Miguel. 

Many years ago, Diana Silva gave me a copy of a booklet she did which included all the Pimentel's going back to before the name was Pimentel to Afonso Fernandes Novaes and which I added, best as I could understand the lineage, to the lineage I researched years ago.  Shirley Cambra Allegre was a huge help to me.  I am a DNA match to her as well as Diana Silva and James Elias Costa.  Our common ancestor is Jose de Pimentel b. 1739.  They are in my database as is Cheri but for some reason I cannot find Cheri in my matches on FTDNA or Ancestry.  I'm also a match to Emanuel Resendes on FTDNA but don't know how we are related at this point. 

It's been a long time since I looked at my data but was recently doing and only recently found the Azores google group!  I used to be on the other Azores email list.  I was organizing my info in an effort to hand it over to my niece and my Portuguese 1st cousins who might be interested in continuing research.  My husband has Parkinson's and severe osteoporosis so I do not have time to continue working on the genealogy of either side of my family. 

Reading the notes on this list, though, makes it difficult to give up trying to solve the puzzle!  I thought I would look at the Pimentel issues a little bit more.  I don't want the work I've done lost should something happen to me, something that happened to my cousin who sponsored me for DAR membership on my paternal side.  I had to repeat her lost research after she passed away. 

To begin, from various notes, it sounds like the lineage to the Counts that was presented in Diana Silva's "Descendants of the Counts of Benavente in the Azores" cannot be proven.  Is that correct? 

Below, I've outlined my Pimentel line and added Diana's and wonder what I might have incorrect of that portion as I had difficulty following the lineage in it. 

I worked with Shirley up to our common ancestor back in 2002...so a long time ago.  So to our common ancestor is proven but not beyond.

My grandmother: Evangelina da Piedade Pimentel, b 1899, Ponta Garca, Villa Franco do Campo, Sao Miguel, Azores d. December 30, 1981, Taunton, MA (I have all the documentation for Evangelina including baptism & immigration records.)

1st great-grandfather: Jose Pimentel, b August 9, 1871, Ponta Garca, Sao Miguel, Azores, d. before February, 1904, Ponta Garca, m. Maria Piedade, Ponta Garca (Baptism Record -- LDS Film #1388483, Baptisms 1831-1878 for Ponta Garca, Pg. 40, #97 - I have a copy,) 

2nd: Francisco Pimentel, b 1808 and 3rd wife Candida de Jesus b. Dec. 23, 1834 (Marriage Record for Franciso x Candida - LDS Film 1388484, Marriages 1675-1884, Page 6, #8 (left hand page) (6R?) - Francisco Pimentel, age 54; widower of Maria Isabel da Conceicao; son of Baltazar Pimentel and Umbelina de Nascimento, married to Candida Emilia Conceicao, age 28, single, native and baptised in Sao Miguel Archangel church in Villa Franca Do Campo, resident of Ponta Garca; daughter of 'Pais Incognito.'  Witnesses:  Victorino Jose Raimundo and Jose de Pimentel. 
(Information from Shirley but I do not a copy.)

3rd: Baltazar Pimentel, b 1765 m. Umbelina deJesus

4th: Jose Pimentel, b. 1739, Faial da Terra, Sao Miguel, Azores

5th: Antonio Pimentel, b Abt. 1701

6th: 2nd Lt. Manoel Raposo Pimentel m. Maria Soares

7th: Capt. Manoel Raposo Pimentel

8th: Capt. Antonio Jacome Raposo

9th: Gaspar Manoel Pimentel m. Ana Jacome Raposo; he died October 30, 1628, Nordeste

10th: Gaspar Manoel Costa m. Clara Affonso, his cousin

11th: João Affonso Pimentel m. Catarina Manuel

12th: João Affonso Pimentel of Grotas Fundas m. Isabel Gonsalves, Nordeste, São Miguel, purported to be the illegetimate son of the 3rd Count of Benavente of Spain.

13th: Afonso y Enriquez Pimentel, 3rd Count of Benavente b. 1413, d. 1461, m. Maria Quinnones Tolledo; Children: 5

14th: Rodrigo Affonso Pimentel, 2nd Count of Benavente, b. in 1370, m. Leonor Enríquez de Mendoza in 1412, in Spain, daughter of Affonso Enriquez, Grand Admiral of Castile, Spain and Joana Mendonca. They had 5 children. He died October 26, 1440.

15th: João Affonso Pimentel, 1st Count of Benavente b. 1355, d. 1419. m. Joana Teles Meneses, Children: 5

16th: Rodrigo Afonso Pimentel m. Lourenca Fonseca

17th: João Afonso Pimentel m. Constanca Rodrigues

18th: Afonso Vasques Pimentel m. Sancha Vasques Moura

19th: Vasco Martim Pimentel...founder and first to use the name “Pimentel” m. Maria Antunes

20th: Martim Fernandes Novaes m. Sancha Martins

21st: Fernão Vasques Novaes..Fought at the siege of Seville, Spain, 1248

22nd: Vasco Fernandes Novaes...Fought at Conquest of Lisbon, 1147 m. Inez Gomes

23rd: Fernão Affonso Novaes...He lived in the time of Affonso VI, King of Castile, came to Portugal in the company of Count D. Henrique. There are documents about him dated back to 1090, m. Thereza Viegas Fonseca

24th: Affonso Fernandes Novaes

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/azores/65a36367-4902-4415-97ae-206993253488n%40googlegroups.com.

[Cheri Mello]

Donna H,

You'd have to run the DNA match to my dad (if he has enough DNA from Jose de Pimentel b. 1739 to detect). I looked at my dad's account at both Ancestry and FTDNA, and no he doesn't show you as a match. Jose was born in 1739 and my dad was born in 1934. So my dad's DNA goes back roughly 200 years from his birth (so 1730s), but he didn't inherit DNA from every ancestor who was alive in the 1730s. So you will have many distant cousins that you know you are related to but it won't show on the DNA. You could see if you match my dad's 1st cousin, Mike Mello, on Ancestry. He has no profile picture and no tree. I don't have you in my genealogy program so I'll contact you directly for that information.

Yes, there are some questions about the Count of Benaventes. I believe John Roias (JR) and John Raposo are the experts on that. They can chime in.

In case you don't know, Shirley passed away about 5 years ago. I made a Find a Grave memorial for her below. In the main picture, you can see part of Jim Costa's shirt! Shirley and I went to the Azores together and we spent a night at Jim's house on our way back to CA.

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/215018244/shirley-jane-allegre

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/azores/1e3bedb7-3f25-4667-8eb9-07f59da476b4%40gmail.com.

[Donna Hinson]

Cheri,
I knew Shirley passed away as I saw your name on her account on FTDNA.  I was sad to learn  this as she was a great researcher.  I'm glad you've been able to carry on the search!  Everyone on this list is so helpful, just like the old surname lists we used to have before Ancestry.  The notes posted on this list are, indeed, as one person said, so interesting!  I checked out the Find-a-Grave site too and I'll look up your dad's cousin Mike Mello.  I do know that sometimes very distant cousins are removed as a DNA match on Ancestry.  I had a very distant paternal match and fortunately we shared our info when we did show up as a match.  I didn't know Ancestry removed matches until he no longer showed up on my match list.  Good thing I had his email address.  I learned Ancestry may delete very distant matches periodically but I've forgotten the reasoning behind it.  Hate that because as distant cousins, we were both stuck, able to verify both our trees and work together on where to look next for records.  I'll get back to you on my tree.
Donna

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/azores/CAKUUw_FYmbOXpAF%2B7E7KEsOKuj0LOxdQ85H%3Dixp_j_GvXE5uHg%40mail.gmail.com.

[Emanuel Resendes]

Donna,

From what I can tell our common ancestors is Gaspar Manel Pimentel who is my 12 generation ancestor. 

Do you have the marriage information for your 5th & 4th ansestors above?  Trying to see if there is a match in my tree.

[Donna Hinson]

All,
I made a mistake on the spouse for the 6th generation which is:  6th: 2nd Lt. Manoel Raposo Pimentel m. Maria Soares
The wife's name is Margarida Soares.

Emmanuel,
Is this, my 9th generation your 12th?   
9th: Gaspar Manoel Pimentel m. Ana Jacome Raposo; he died October 30, 1628, Nordeste, Sao Miguel.

If I have the linage correct, he is my 9th great-grandfather.

Marriage information for the following...the names & dates are from Shirley's info.

4th: Jose Pimentel, b. 1739, Faial da Terra, Sao Miguel, Azores, m. Antonia da Trindade Furtada June 6, 1763
5th: Antonio Pimentel, b Abt. 1701 m. Maria Furtada January 23, 1724

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/azores/bca1471a-324d-4010-99b7-7f076d52ba10n%40googlegroups.com.

[John JMR]

This line is very difficult to determine. I think it is the line of Joao Afonso. However, because there is a second Pimentel line  [from Margarida Soares cc Manuel de Pimentel] ] goes back to Ribeira Grande and it does not appear to be related, one has to be careful. My money is on Joao Afonso because this line appears to be poorer. The line of Joao de Resendes Pimentel [cc Maria Soares Godinho] is from wealth in Ribeira Grande. Our line ened up in Ponta Garca, and is quite poor.

JR