Marriage translation help

[Marilyn Thompson]

Bottom right extending onto the next page

http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SJR-CH-RIBEIRASECA-C-1764-1803/SJR-CH-RIBEIRASECA-C-1764-1803_item1/index.html?page=168

Not sure of the grooms name or that of his parents

groom Manuel ______________   Father Pedro _________________ wife Barbara Maria

Bride: Catharina Josefa ___________ Father _________________ wife ____Maria do ______

I am not sure these are the people I am looking for. 

Thank You

Marilyn T

[Cheri Mello]

There's an abbreviation that starts with an S that I've never seen before. Hopefully, someone else has seen it.

Groom: Manuel de S___ Mancebo, son of Pedro de S___ and Barbara Maria.

Bride: Catarina Josefa de Santo Antonio, dau. of Pascoal de S___ and Maria do ____

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

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[JR]

The name is de Utra, today Dutra; Also d'Utra. 

Manuel de Utra mancebo, filho de Pedro de Utra and Barbara Maria. com Catarina Jozefa de Santo Antonio, filha de Pascoal de Utra and Maria do Rosario

JR

[Rick Pimentel]

To me it looks like  the abbreviation for the mother of the bride is "Ro" which I think is Rosario.  Kind of a strange way to write an R but I found others in the surrounding pages.

Rick

Richard Francis Pimentel

Lee, NH

 

Researching, Riberia Grande, Riberinha, Achada Grande,  Bretanha, and Ponta Delgada,  Sao Miguel, Acores

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[Cheri Mello]

Yeah, I see the Dutra now. I was thinking "desomething" that was run together. It doesn't help that he doesn't capitalize it and after the "dut" he raises the "ra." Annoying!!

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

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[bsei.azo...@gmail.com]

Could I suggest that it might be da S^za (da Sousa) instead of De Utra.  The folks that compiled the SJ Marriage Index have it listed as Souza.  If this Obíto of 20-year-old Catarina Josefa two years later is the same person, her husband seems to have been Manuel da Souza Mancebo.

http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SJR-CH-RIBEIRASECA-O-1787-1811/SJR-CH-RIBEIRASECA-O-1787-1811_item1/index.html?page=111

(2nd on left)

Bill Seidler

[Cheri Mello]

Hmmm, could be his abbreviation for Souza.

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

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[Boyd McKee Kitchen]

Looks more lie S^za to me than U^ra.

Boyd Kitchen

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[JR]

Yes, it does look like Souza. See what happens when your mind gets stuck in a groove. ;)

JR

[Marilyn Thompson]

The name "  Mancebo" translates (according to Google) as "young man". So would   Mancebo be considered a part of his actual name or would it be a way of distinguishing him from another Manuel de Sousa?

I am just trying to figure out how to enter him into my database.

Marilyn T

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[Boyd McKee Kitchen]

I've seen "Mancebo" used as a surname in the Azores many times.

Boyd

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[Marilyn Thompson]

Thank you to all. After I sent my last reply I looked at the Obit Bill sent a link to. It had Mancebo listed as her husband's last name.

Marilyn T

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[Cheri Mello]

I've seen Mancebo as a surname and referencing to the "younger one." Once you do enough work on that family, it will become apparent.

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

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[Gayle Machado]

If Mancebo is capitalized, it probably is being used as a surname. Lower case version usually means “the younger “ one. Not to be confused with “junior.”  My grandfather was named after his uncle, so some documents added mancebo to differentiate between the two men. The problem comes when someone not familiar with the importance of case suddenly starts treating mancebo as a surname, which happened in the book “The Portuguese on Martha’s Vineyard” with regards to my grandfather. A reason why primary vs secondary sources are more valuable. 

Gayle

On Jan 14, 2023, at 9:05 AM, Marilyn Thompson <mar...@jmtmlt.com> wrote:



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[Philippe GARNIER]

Hi all,

Mancebo is young man. It's not not a surname. Probably there is another said Senior with the same name and surname.

Abs

Philippe Garnier

Paris - France

https://philippegarnier112.wixsite.com/familiasilhaterceira/copie-de-familias-da-ilha-terceira

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[Leni Buch]

Hi, Gayle,

In old Portuguese here in Brazil we used "mancebo" as "men" and not a surname.

"Catharina Josefa married to Manuel de Souza, men natural and native and customer of this .... of the Apostle of Santiago, place of the Ribeira of that term of Vila da Calheta de São Jorge passed from the present life ....

 That is what we understand

Best Regards

Leni Buch 

From Brasil

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[Leni Buch]

To Marilyn Thompson...

Manuel Fonseca, son of Pedro da Fonseca and Barbara Maria.

Catharina  Josefa

 

Marilyn Thompson <mar...@jmtmlt.com> wrote:

Bottom right extending onto the next page

http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SJR-CH-RIBEIRASECA-C-1764-1803/SJR-CH-RIBEIRASECA-C-1764-1803_item1/index.html?page=168

Not sure of the grooms name or that of his parents

groom Manuel ____Fonseca, _________   Father: Pedro ___Fonseca______________ wife Barbara Maria

Bride: Catharina Josefa de Santo Antonio__________ Father __Pascoal da Fonseca_______________ wife ____Maria do Socorro?_____

I am not sure these are the people I am looking for. 

Thank You

Marilyn T

Em sáb., 14 de jan. de 2023 às 17:56, 'Gayle Machado' via Azores Genealogy <azo...@googlegroups.com> escreveu:

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[George Sousa]

My great grandmother who spent her whole life on the island of Santa Maria would refer to a young man as “um mancebo”.  

On Jan 15, 2023, at 10:50 AM, Leni Buch <frau...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Gayle Machado]

Leni,

I wasn’t offering a translation of the document just how the word mancebo has been used and misused. Specifically, with how my grandfather’s name was misinterpreted as a surname when it actually meant “the younger man” having the same name as another. Both he and his uncle lived in the same small town in Massachusetts and carried the same name. But other genealogists thought it was a surname. Whether that was carelessness or ignorance, I’ll never know. But they printed it. I have also seen the word used on the island of Pico. It usually meant the “younger man” but occasionally became a surname over time. Much like an alcuhna could start out as a way to differentiate between two people but then get used as a surname later on. People were very flexible with their names before the 1900s. Sometimes they added while other times they subtracted surnames. 

Hope that clarifies what I was referencing. 

Gayle

On Jan 15, 2023, at 9:01 AM, Leni Buch <frau...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Cheri Mello]

I've pretty much found what Gayle said. I've also seen variations in Brasil vs. the Azores. What applies in one locality doesn't seem to happen in the other.

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

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