RE: See What Jude Kleila Has to Say
David W Miller
Thanks for the post. I am interested in your comments. As one would expect
from Kleila, it is a completely biased piece with some half-truths, to be a
kind as possible.
David
-----Original Message-----
From: Aluminum-Struct...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:Aluminum-Struct...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve
Sincere
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 2:49 PM
To: Aluminum Structure Contractors
Subject: See What Jude Kleila Has to Say
The Palm Beach CBS and FOX affiliates (sister stations) aired a story
recently that may be of interest to the participants of this disscussion
group. If you didn't see it, you can find it at the following link:
http://www.news12now.com/sections/video-stories/
Look for the title "Are Screen Enclosures Doomed to Fail".
I plan to write a response to this piece shortly.
Steve Sincere
Brian Hall
http://www.floir.com/PressReleases/ViewMediaRelease.asp?ID=2660
Brian Smith
You sound a little disturbed at Jude however you are still an officer
of Aero Consulting, LLC and Stronghold Manufacturing, Inc.
I understand that the industry may not want change but we need to
change something in order to keep this industry around. I have been in
this industry for 20 years and have seen a lot of change but I have
never seen the screen enclosure market so soft and would have never
thought that a 24x40 enclosure would sell for $14,000.00 +/-.
I remember the days where the competition was selling them for $1.85
per sq ft plus gutter and doors. What we need to do is try to find
alternate material and methods to meet the code and meet the average
homeowner's budget. We can build screen enclosures to stand up to
tornados but no could afford to have them. Can the industry get some
support to take a typical enclosure/and connections to a wind tunnel
and have it tested?
I still don't understand that if 80% of the enclosure's that you
tested failed then why we didn't lose 80% of the enclosures. Its
strange how there is still enclosures up that were installed in the
early 70's. If wind resistance is our problem why don't we revert to
round spline?
Brian Smith
There must be some way to get allowance on the screen coming out. The
Acrylic Window industry has to label there window to be removed when
winds exceed a particular speed. We need to come up with something
alternative materials? Alternative support of corner post, center post
ect. This industry is crashing fast because of the expense to build a
screen enclosure. Electric cost are very minimal, fuel is high but not
an outrages, Profits at this time are very small, labor is becoming
more controlled now that there is not a high demand for a screen
enclosure, aluminum makes up the highest percentage of the cost of the
structure. What happened to I-Beams are they stronger? Is it better to
make a wider beam or a taller beam these are some of my thoughts? It
probably cost less to buy trusses and plywood than it does aluminum.
Steve I am not venting all of this to you, I am venting to the
industry that works for today and doesn't plan for tomorrow. .
Brian Smith
Brian Smith
vested interest in some current products. It doesn't have to blow out
at a spific speed it just has to blow out before the current code wind
speed. Corrosion? Do you have that accounted for in your design? Did
you take in consideration of the salinity of the air? Chlorine
evaporation? Next we will be talking about expansion do to the
climate. I'm not going to get in a shouting match with you because you
are so intelligent in a trade that you only share 2 or 3 years in at
the most. Testing round spline may be affordable as apposed to wind
testing a mock up screen. We still need to pull together and get the
most economic answer to the problems mentioned. You poke at Richard
Prince his father was one of the round spline inventors in the
beginning of the screen enclosure industry. Why are you so negative
about other changes? Lets just work together to get these things
solved. There is more than one way to skin a cat.
Vernon Leslie
It's apropos that you mentioned modifying the code. The present code
(implemented Dec. 8th, 2006) was submitted by Joe Belcher on behalf of the
AAF in conjunction with Randy Kissell (your business partner).
The code should have included provisions for reducing modeling loads when
removable screen panels and/or a screen release system are employed.
Precedent has been established for this type of allowance. As an example,
widows aren't required to survive hurricane forces if they are protected by
a shutter or some other mechanism. Acrylic widows have a warning label
notifying homeowners that they must remove the window when the wind velocity
exceeds 75mph, which affords a reduction in calculated loads. It is
ludicrous and inexcusable that we can apply similar techniques to screen
enclosures.
This industry has been decimated by incompetence and egotism. Even
contentious contractors, like Richard Prince, are adversely affected by
their disreputable peers.
The proponents of the present code owe the industry and consumers an apology
and should correct their legislation. Maybe, when pigs fly.
Vern
Vernon Leslie
I made a typographical error in my previous post.
It's apropos that you mentioned modifying the code. The present code (implemented Dec. 8th, 2006) was submitted by Joe Belcher on behalf of the AAF in conjunction with Randy Kissell (your business partner).
The code should have included provisions for reducing modeling loads when removable screen panels and/or a screen release systems are employed. Precedent has been established or this type of allowance. As an example, widows aren't required to survive hurricane forces if they are protected by a shutter or some other mechanism. Acrylic widows have a warning label notifying homeowners that they must remove the window when the wind velocity exceeds 75mph, which affords a reduction in calculated loads. It is ludicrous and inexcusable that we CAN’T apply similar techniques to screen enclosures.
Vernon Leslie
Steve,
The issue isn't the inability or lack of desire to build substantial enclosures: customers should have less expensive alternatives. Everyone that wants an enclosure can’t afford $20,000.00.
People buy trailers because they lack the financial resources to buy site built homes. Do you want to outlaw trailers also? What’s next?
If the auto industry were to abide by your same rules of logic, motorcycles would be illegal and only the wealthy would be able to own cars. Does seam very equitable to me.
Your experience in the enclosure industry is most impressive. Do you want a job rescreening?
I’m glad that you aren’t meddling in other industries.
Vern
-----Original Message-----
From: Aluminum-Struct...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:Aluminum-Struct...@googlegroups.com]
On Behalf Of Steve Sincere
Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 3:29 PM
To: Aluminum Structure Contractors
Subject: Re: Good Luck With That
Let me be perfectly clear on the subject:
1) If you want to change the rules because you can't build to the
current code, then fine, go do it. Be forwarned that others have
received criticism for pursuing rule changes as it was viewed as an
attempt (and sometimes rightfully so) aimed at personal gain. If I
invented round spline and stood to make a lot of money selling it, I
sure would like special considerations for it in the FBC. (Don't
forget to tell all the suppliers that they have to change all the dies
if the spline groove is not the same geometry. That goes over well
also.)
2) The rules change cycle for the FBC is ridiculously long. That is a
fact. For instance, the 2007 revision AAF guide does not go into
effect until October 2008...and that has already gone through the
approval process. What has been started on the round spline issue?
3) At what speed would you like your screen to blow out? Orlando would
need screens that blow out in under 110 MPH. We need less than 140 MPH
in Palm Beach County. If it starts blowing out during a typical strong
summer afternoon thunderstorm the consumer is going to get pissed off
at "those greedy contractors that want to hit me up for $1000
everytime my screens blow out." That doesn't sound too good for the
image.
4) Once spline has been sitting in the slot for a year or two it gets
hard and brittle. If it is in an uncoated slot, the corrosion can
build up underneath it and gum up the removal as well. As someone that
has rescreened panels, I've seen this personally.
5) Jude Kleila and Randy Kissell are not my business partners. If you
still believe this, you obviously haven't been attending any of the
meetings I've had this year or reading my posts in the last month.
Regardless, people are going to believe what they want. It would
concern me if anyone holding on to that belief was someone that has
any impact on the future of the screen enclosure industry. I'm not
concerned.
So, why don't you guys get all your great ideas to market and/or
change the rules to fit the inadequacy of current designs and just end
this debate? Trust me, I'm more than happy to promote designs that
only have to stand up to wind blowing on bare frame. Maybe we can make
cages out of 1x1x.045. I think I'll continue to try to live by the
current rules until somebody else changes them...same as I always
have.
Steve Sincere
Vernon Leslie
I'm sure that you have the best of intentions.
The attachment is an email exchange pertaining to the creation of the
pending FBPE aluminum structures responsibility rule. The exchange was
between Steve Sincere, Randy Kissell, Jude Kleila, and David Charland. Mr.
Charland was the FBPE chairman of the committee considering the rule.
Commentary is unnecessary because the content speaks for itself.
Vern
-----Original Message-----
From: Aluminum-Struct...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:Aluminum-Struct...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve
Sincere
Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 4:30 PM
To: Aluminum Structure Contractors
Subject: Re: Good Luck With That
Seriously, you might want think about these things before you write
them and save yourself further embarrassment.
Not everyone can afford $20,000 for an enclosure. Not everyone can
afford a house. Not everyone can afford a Mercedes or a yacht or a
second house in the Hamptons. What is your point? Should everything be
made cheap enough for everyone to afford? Is that what the industry
wants, a market of cheap products? I'll defer to you guys on this
because you've been in this busines longer than me.
If the auto industry abides by my rules of logic...? My rules of logic
say follow the rules of law. By law, motorcycles are legal...as are
fire arms...as is sky diving, hang gliding, private pilot licences,
rock climbing, etc. All okay by me. I don't know what you were trying
to prove here.
Meddeling in the industry? Do you see me trying to change the laws
affecting the industry? I'm trying to find solid engineering answers
for why so many enclosures were lost and how to prevent that in the
future.
I feel sorry for you if you can't get past some conspiracy theory
enough to do productive work to that end. Go research alternative
materials. Go research designing blow out screen. Go pursue code
changes. Actually go do something. All this pointless badgering is not
solving anything. Make something happen and make me look
bad...wouldn't that be the best!
That said, I've got to get back to meaningful work.
> > solved. There is more than one way to skin a cat.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
richardp...@bellsouth.net
From: Richard Prince
Steven, everyone is entitled to there opinion but in the world of
practical application many of us who have rolled 180 or 220 for that
matter (Not the funky Alumax flat releasable spline) and have seen
enclosures saved because of it would disagree with your point of view.
The facts are that in the hurricanes of the 1960's and including
Hurricane David in 1979 and what ever was left of those old crusty 180
jobs after the most recent hurricanes in Broward no matter how old
they were and some were so corroded in fact that the aluminum spline
groves came out with the spline along with the screen. Out of all the
round splines and there are several, 180 preformed the best as it was
designed to do. Screenco and Metal Products lost the flat spline
battle to Climatrol in PBC many years ago. Perhaps some other
contractors who know what their talking about would care to comment on
round spline.
With regard to testing your right about size of the panels (And that's
about it) you need to test several sizes but the release is not at a
specific wind speed it's within a range, and you don't need every
panel to blow out anyway in order to save the structure which was the
intent. Now, the industry today would probably use it to lower the
loads and possibly reduce some of the costs.
You don't have to lobby the Florida Building Commission either but you
would have to have a Certified Hurricane Testing Laboratory do the
proper testing and certify that it does release within that given
range. There are nationally recognized tests that are available and
could be used. Once you have that certification you would be able to
have your engineer (Which you are not) reduce the loads. Having to
design a screen wall to 29 psf in a zone C, is ridiculous no matter if
it is the current rule? Who is really responsible for our current
code?. Mandated BS. Maybe the suppliers would care to do it. And yes
they would have to redo the dies. I would estimate the costs for
testing in the 40 to 50 thousand range.
Perhaps I will just get it done, as my gift to the industry but to be
quite frank I don't think that much of the current or past industry or
its leadership.
Also In reference to these new extruded aluminum alloys (Which have
been around for ever) 6061, 6005, or 6105 at the tempers being stated
(In order to get those higher yeilds) they are all very poor in
formability and have some characteristics that are not conducive to
our industry's application. FEA which we also use, with difficult
building departments, is already being abused in getting that
preverbal leg up on your competition "The Tract Beam".
You know Steve years ago I offered a screen enclosure with a minium of
0.60 walls and a minium 0.72 in the beams, so I understand your
frustration.
These are just my opinions and suggestions. Thanks for mentioning my
name and I wish you luck in what ever it is you're trying to do. When
pigs can fly.
SB 404 it's all over for Pal. Guys I am not feeling the love.
Richard Prince
Screenco North Inc.
Aluma-fab International LLC
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > solved. There is more than one way to skin a cat.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Stephen Raskin
Vern: It is a shame that you always have to attack someone or make derogatory comments about them when you do not agree with their viewpoint.
Brian Smith
Tom Matson
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