Suffering

[Gary]

This small group seems to get it, if there is an it to get. So, what
about suffering? How does suffering come up in your life? Has the
understanding settled, but suffering goes on? Has suffering been left
behind? Suffering is the motivating factor for most. Has the
motivation gone? What is left?

[Rodger]

Hi Gary.
Suffering has not been left behind.

[Mahakali]

Life is suffering. Life is about creation and distruction; it is about
dualities: pain and pleasure, right and wrong, succeeding or not
succeeding...etc etc

Why do I want to get rid of suffering? Even suffering has got its own
stand. Whatever is suffering to/for you is another man's pleasure or
gain.


Life is also pleasure. Think about those too to counterbalance the bad
things that have happened.

By saying this, I am not condoning suffering as in carrying out of
cruelties, Hitler, etc etc. What I am saying,in Advaita, suffering
makes sense if seen as part of the dualities at play in the world.

Once, the the Hitlers of this world and their acts are seen through as
part of the grand play of Maya, it may spontaneously appear a sense of
empathy and understanding for those who are less able to fight the
evil or less fortunate than us .

"My" personal suffering comes and goes. It depends on the economy, the
finances at hand, the moods, the weather etc etc. This is all
determined and dependent on my "ego" which, nowadays, is less of a
tyrant but,nonetheless, is still dictating how I am going to live my
life.

Anyway, the main pre-requisite for happiness is suffering. The former
can come only after the latter and not the other way round.

Kali

[empty2]

Suffering.

>How does suffering come up in your life?

In the usual way........ not getting what I want or getting what I
don't. Buddha defined the first cause..... possibly easier to
'control'.

The second seems more pernicious and difficult to deal with, with
external happenings being largely beyond 'control', triggering the
whole conditioning of individuality and the only remedy lying within,
either prompting efforts at avoidance or somehow 'not not-wanting'
whatever it is.

Either way, to the extent that individuated identity rules, there will
be preferences - that "set heaven and earth infinitely apart" ........
which equals suffering.

>Has the understanding settled, but suffering goes on?

Understanding thoughts to be like rain falling through an empty sky,
being the sky itself, there is no ground........ understanding being a
property of the mind, where can it settle? Suffering goes on....... as
above.

>Has suffering been left behind?

.....behind, in front of, with, without...... what?

>Suffering is the motivating factor for most. Has the motivation gone?

Not yet!

>What is left?

The questioner.

[Rodger]

Yep...in the usual way.

If the questioner is left,is the answerer right?
And,if the answerer is not right,is the question left...to suffer?

[empty2]

:)

[Rodger]

I meant to say...is the questioner left to
suffer.But,question,questioner...what's the difference?

[Rodger]

So,Gary,what are your answers to your questions?

[Gary]

Rodger:

I suspect that my experience mimics yours.

Suffering goes on. Elation goes on. I have for at least the last
fourteen years suffered from depression. Depression goes on. Maybe
not with you, but with me.

What doesn't go on is my constant identification with the above. I
have short times where there is a habitual identification with the
above. Then, there is an overwhelming sense of being a puppet in a
predestined event stream. Next, there is a sense of separation from
the feelings and sensations that are associated with the above. That
is followed by present moment awareness and silence watching the
commotion. There is safety and calm in the moment. Then the activity
that started this all is engaged once again, but the calm and the
commotion are united. This as well as a sense that this calm was
constant throughout each seeming stage above seems to then prevail. I
think that you know what I'm trying to describe. Not doing a good
job, but there you have it. Nothing different than the rest of you.

[Rodger]

Thanks,Gary.I have my ups and downs,too.Neither seem extreme
anymore.Both are short lived these days.

[empty2]

.........and I meant to say, the questioner?

[Rodger]

?

[Mark Ty-Wharton]

I was in bed with depression a lot at the end of last year

I was frustrated because I was having panic attacks

I reviewed the Landmark Forum

I realised I was making up my whole life experience

Advaita is more fun than depression

Now I am making up that Advaita has value and keeps me interested in being alive

Guess what :-)

It's a more rewarding illusion

Cheers

Mark

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[Ram]

Who suffers? I know it sounds like the old advaita shuffle, but
really, who suffers?

Upon examination, from here anyway, it is seen that suffering is a
label. A label put upon an idea or set of ideas, or moods. In other
words, fleeting concepts. I think that Gary's description exemplifies
this quite nicely.

For me, there is a noticing of depression on occasion, which not being
the norm in my consciousness, I can for the most part identify with
being a bio-chemical imbalance in the body-mind organism. For example,
when using some forms of stimulants to stay awake for cross country
drives, or using pain-killers for a few days to avert intense physical
pain, afterwards there is usually a heavy crash where the body feels
very out of sorts which is usually associated with a sluggishness in
the mind, something I call "brain-sludge." Noticing that these are
simply passing physical/mental phenomena and not myself, there is not
a sense of suffering per se, even though a feeling of depression or
mental and physical sluggishness may be present for some days. Only
when it taken to be real, or that it is happening to me, is when the
label of suffering gets added on to the passing nothingness.

I reckon that as Gary as observed, this comes from deeper experience
and recognition of the transient nature of the phenomenon. In other
words, it's happening in me or passing through me, and is not who I
am.

The suffering aspect happens as a function or result of
identification, or perhaps better said, mis-identification. If memory
serves, Buddha said something to the effect of "the notion of a
seperate entity is suffering." Bingo! The suffering is where the "me"
comes in, or vicey versey as the case may be. Thus the question of for
who is the suffering? Thoughts come and go, depression, chemical
imbalances, lack of energy, pleasure, pain, etc., all come and go.
Where is the suffering in any of it? Only with the label of "It's
happening to me. I'm depressed. I'm worthless, etc." All of this is
only mis-identification with passing appearances. Likewise, the
getting and not getting based suffering is also based upon mis-
identification. Taking oneself to be something one is not, and taking
things to be true.

On one level, depression and suffering, and other such afflictions are
real, for the one who experiences them, and should be treated
accordingly with drugs or therapy or meditation, or whatever works.
However, in reality, they are not real, any more than any other
physical or conceptual appearance is real.

What is suffering, or the sufferer, minus any concept of "me" or
"you" (any other thing)? With an excess of words and concepts the mind
wanders unbridled down the path of unreality. Our experience shaped by
our concepts. Conceive of the unconceivable, and then use the concept
of leaving even that "unconceivable" off, and rest in That, without
any concept of resting or That.

~*~

[Rodger]

Who suffers?

Possibly the same who that examines?

[Ram]

Who dat? An appearance in a dream.

Does the sufferer in last night's dream still suffer? Was his/her
suffering ever real?

[Rodger]

Dat may be an appearance in a dream but,dat does not appear
independent of what dreams.
Does the dreamer of last nights dream still dream this morning?
Upon examination,what examines? Dat?
Possibly what dreams,what examines,is also what suffers?

[Rodger]

'Suffering' may be a label but,is labeled as such by that which
'suffers'.Labeled as such,that which labels,labels itself.Is not
labeled as such by Dat...Dat being a character in the dream of what
dreams...Dat is a label.And,as such,is the label of that which
labels...as that.To think that the label passes through me,is only
happening in me,but is not who I am is to label who I am as a who
other than I am.Is there a who who is other than I am?

If there is anything which can pass through me,happen in me? Is there
anything outside who/what I am?

Living has its ups and downs.You can not stay up,you can not stay
down.Neither pass through you or happen in you.You are either up or
you are down.I'm told that to remain balanced,whether up or down is
the key.You are either balanced or you are unbalanced.But,neither pass
through you or happen in you.You are as you are...whether
up,down,balanced.
I'm told that action is lost balanced.

'Suffer',as a label,is thought.

[Ram]

Yes, label or thought, same thing. Suffering is conceptual.

The balance is not in the ups or downs that appear in or pass through
you.

The balance is the background. The appearances are never not part of
the background, but are never the entirety of it either. If
appearances were true, they would last forever. What appearance has
ever lasted forever?

Word games aside, in your own experience, is there anything outside of
you? And when anything that appeared in you disappeared, did you also
disappear?

No, there is nothing that is not you, and yes everything that appears
is not who you are, even though it is only you.

But you know all that already.

:O)

Speaking of balance, the yin/yang symbol is a nice symbol, as the seed
of one side is contained within the other, but it is only fully
understood when it is recognized that it is space that the symbol
appears within which contains the entire circle. The space is
unaffected by the swirling activity of both sides, yet remains largely
unnoticed, except through subtle vision. "Be more subtle than space."

[Rodger]

The balance is in...is...what goes up and down.

Appearances are true...real...for as long as they last.

All I can say is...and this is true...I have not disappeared,as yet.
And if/when I do disappear how will I know if my disappearance is
true?

[Ram]

What/who are you that has not disappeared, other than the background?

What disappears is not you, so how can you disappear?

[Rodger]

What,or who,that can ask this question has not disappeared.
What,or who,that can resolve this question(at least to the
satisfaction of this what or who)has not disappeared.

What,or who,that has not disappeared is this what or who knowing
background/foreground.

[Ram]

http://www.thecore.com/sdatz/images/funny/BuffaloTheory.jpg

Don't know why google wanted to mess up the link, but it should work
now. Seems fitting.