Tell someone

[MarkJ]

What is the motivation behind telling someone about the nature of
reality? What drives grace?

(please assume that I am aware that there is really no 'someone' to
motivate and no one motivating)

[Gary]

george drive grace, except on Fridays. On Fridays george's brother
frank drives grace. What is.. is. Of course, your last bit suggest
that you have both asked and answered the question.

[Mahakali]

Hi MarkJ

if you are aware that there is really no 'someone' to motivat and no
one motivating, then, your question is being made redundant.

Best wishes...

Kali

[Richard]

This no one named Richard is driven by compassion to help other
aspects of the One to see true and unlimited.

Not that 'I' have all the answers or any answers, but that's what
motivates me to share with sincere seekers.

I could never be a guru though since I think I would just laugh
whenever a seeker asked the usual questions.

Wait a minute. There it is! The laughing guru. Let me get a publicist
and get a tour going. People can come sit at my feet and I would laugh
at them. What do you think?

[Mahakali]

This no one named Richard seems to have found another thing that he
("I") can do in order to see others through to liberation.

How does he do that? Well, the cause seems to be 'compassion' which
might also be the effect.

The only point which is not clear to me which I hope Richard will
clarify is: do you mean that if I were compassionate enough, then, I
could reach enlightenment or liberation? Do you have examples or ideas
about this?

Best wishes..

Kali

[Richard]

If I can pick up on what is troubling or blocking someone, I will talk
to that. If they are receptive, something I say might help them
realize what they already know. Sometimes I throw out many words and
they interpret them as is useful. It's all a game.

My story is, among other jobs, I've been a counselor in various
settings, worked with patients in hospitals, worked at an animal
shelter. Compassion here is either intrinsic or was taught by parents
at a young age.

The Buddha left his wife and family (not very compassionate) to seek
enlightenment. After six years he became realized, so to speak. Then
he had to decide whether to live in bliss or to teach others.
Compassion rose in him and he then spread the word.

[godszen]

Richard wrote:
> The Buddha left his wife and family (not very compassionate) to seek
> enlightenment. After six years he became realized, so to speak.

what do you think happened to him?

what do you think his experience was after he became realized?

[godszen]

MarkJ wrote:
> What is the motivation behind telling someone about the nature of
> reality?

what is the nature of reality?

[Anandanand]

Hi Richard,

On Aug 4, 9:45 am, Richard <richar...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> The Buddha left his wife and family (not very compassionate) to seek
> enlightenment.

Looking at end result we may call it most compassionate. So is with
many more, Samartha Ramdas ran away from his marriage ceremony.

[Rodger]

Hi Andy!

When Samartha ran away,was he being compassioanate towards his wife to
be by saving her a lot of grief,or wise by saving himself a lot of
grief? Or,wisely compassionate by saving them both grief?

[Marcus]

.

Thanks MarkJ,

“What is the motivation behind telling someone about the nature of
reality? What drives grace?”

Yes, I see where this is coming from. How can one share that which
can only be experienced by the individual and why. You know that the
Buddha, Jesus, Mohammed, Sailor Bob, Rammana Marharshi, Nisargadatta
Maharaj, etc, etc, they all tried to explain the nature of reality.
Some might say (not me) that they where motivated by fame. That, in
many ways the misinterpretation of their teachings have fuelled the
fires of human conflict. That surely higher levels of awareness would
realise the need to protect the pilgrims from their own ignorance and
not give the children live ammunition to play with.

It is a difficult one. I think it is a sincere attempt to help
others find their way. In the end, you are dammed if you do and
dammed if you don’t. The hermit monk who found God-consciousness
inspired no-one.

Wise man once said : “ it’s not what you say it’s the way you say
it” this portrays the principle that it’s what’s in your heart that
communes with others, not just the words. Telling people about the
nature of your reality must be for the right reasons. A sincere
attempt to help others. It’s too easy to assume a spiritual ego at
work but remember, by it’s own nature such motivation has a tendency
to repel rather than attract.

Supreme Grace, That grace that rests in all things, that becomes
apparent when we stop trying to find it. When we stop trying to be
anything. That grace of silent, perfect peace. Do you really think
that our basic primal concept of “driven” could apply to a supreme
ultimate condition of stillness.

Maybe it needs your recognition to be complete ??


.

> > many more, Samartha Ramdas ran away from his marriage ceremony.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Richard]

Hi Anandanand,

I didn't know that about Ramdas.

I suppose it might have been the Buddha's compassion that caused him
to leave home to seek the antidote for humanity's suffering.

Richard

[Richard]

Hi godszen,

Before his enlightenment he studied with a couple of teachers but
decided he had to go his own way.

With strong intentionality and determination not to arise until
enlightened, he meditated all night. Overcoming various fears and
temptations (not unlike Jesus's temptations on the desert), Siddhartha
Gotama actualized himself as the Buddha.

He then said that at last he had seen the builder of this house of
pain; he was free from it and had broken the ridgepole so that it
couldn't be rebuilt.

When asked if he were an angel, he said, "No." When asked if he were a
saint he said, "No". "Then what are you?", he was asked. "I am awake."

Richard

[Mahakali]

Richard

all these stories i.e. your story as counselar in hospital, prison and
animal shelter or Bhudda story are very nice complicated stories. The
mind likes to produce complicated stories because they sound more
interesting. And, then, there are other stories of people who have
meditated for ten hours a day for many days, or stories of how Arjuna
won battles etc etc and while I am involved in developing compassion,
then, I miss out on a beautiful flower which, despite the heavy rains,
has managed to blossom... I suppose that the miracle of 'what it is'
of a flower is too simple compared to the intricacies of developing
compassion...

Patrick: it is still raining in London...it has not stopped from the
past three weeks...what a dreadful summer we are having!

Kali

[Mahakali]

Marcus wrote:

> Supreme Grace,   That grace that rests in all things, that becomes apparent when we stop trying to find it.  When we stop trying to be anything. That grace of silent, perfect peace.     Do you really think that our basic primal concept of “driven”  could apply to a supreme ultimate condition of stillness.

why do you have to complicate stillness by applying your basic primal
concept of "driven"? Stillness does not require concepts as it is
found in between concepts..maybe it is a miracle, isn't?

kali

>
> Maybe it needs your recognition to be complete ??
>
> .
>
> On Aug 4, 12:56 pm, Rodger <rodge...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Hi Andy!
>
> > When Samartha ran away,was he being compassioanate towards his wife to
> > be by saving her a lot of grief,or wise by saving himself a lot of
> > grief? Or,wisely compassionate by saving them both grief?
>
> > On Aug 4, 3:41 am, Anandanand <hgdin...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Hi Richard,
>
> > > On Aug 4, 9:45 am, Richard <richar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > The Buddha left his wife and family (not very compassionate) to seek
> > > > enlightenment.
>
> > > Looking at end result we may call it most compassionate. So is with
> > > many more, Samartha Ramdas ran away from his marriage ceremony.- Hide quoted text -
>

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Richard]

On Aug 4, 2:01 pm, Mahakali <Maha.Ka...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Richard

>...while I am involved in developing >compassion, then, I miss out on a >beautiful flower...

Hi Kali,

This is a nice story too, that some person sees some flower.

I think you missed or mistook my reply to your question about
developing compassion. I tried to indicate that compassion is either
already ingrained in one's nature or not. Just like being happy, it is
already in one's makeup or it isn't. Here is what I said in the
previous post:

"Compassion here is either intrinsic or was taught by parents at a
young age."

Stay dry,
Richard

[MarkJ]

What is is.

> > motivate and no one motivating)- Hide quoted text -

[MarkJ]

> if you are aware that there is really no 'someone' to motivat and no
> one motivating, then, your question is being made redundant.

Hi Kali

Redundant or circular.

By appearance, people are telling people how to realize and some
people are realizing while others are not.

Really, no one had anything to do with realization and realization
occurred in spite of all efforts in its own time.

There could be more said.


Mark

[MarkJ]

I could quote from countless volumes or just say, you know.

[godszen]

Richard wrote:
> When asked if he were an angel, he said, "No." When asked if he were a
> saint he said, "No". "Then what are you?", he was asked. "I am awake."

what does it mean, to be "awake"?

[godszen]

I don't know, that's why I'm asking if you know?

> > what is the nature of reality?- Hide quoted text -

[MarkJ]

'Real' is a construct in mind but what is REAL can not be and was
never constructed.

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Anandanand]

Hi Rodger,

> When Samartha ran away,was he being compassioanate towards his wife to
> be by saving her a lot of grief,or wise by saving himself a lot of
> grief? Or,wisely compassionate by saving them both grief?

That was a long time back, I don't remember whether it was one way or
the other (just joking).
But I distinctly remember that when he was enlightened he said 'Wow, I
am enlightened!' (Humor)
And then he said 'Now that I am enlightened, let me help these poor
suffering people' (I am sure many others must have said the same)
But he was caught in a dilemma 'This treasure has been entrusted to
me, so would it be wise to distribute it to those who may not be
worthy of it' (Today it would be 'I have paid for this through my
nose, why should I distribute it free ?')
But in those days, since he had not paid anything, compassion won and
he again said as mentioned in S.No. 2.

That's how Ram got the Dasbodh. Another interesting and complicated
story for Kali.

[Richard]

Anandanand,

Even though I have a copy of Dasbodh, I never heard how Ram got it.
Maybe it's in the forward of this copy?

Could you please give the story to us?

Perhaps I heard a romanticized version of the Buddha's decision to
teach. Upon enlightenment he considered between just remaining in that
bliss by himself or teaching others who might not understand what he
was talking about.

In the Diamond Sutra a perhaps related ambiguity appears when he talks
of teaching others while a true Boddhisatva knows there *are* no
others to teach.

Richard

[Mahakali]

Wow! There is nothing better than a story within a story!

A sign of a 'good' guru is how many stories he's got to tell you. The
best one is the one where s/he tells that if you go and sit at her/his
feet long enough you'll become a compassionate, enlightened being.
Maybe s/he will charge you as well for the story and for their living.

Kali

[Richard]

On Aug 4, 4:57 pm, godszen <gods...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> what does it mean, to be "awake"?

Tough question. I didn't have a ready answer but think it might be the
same as being fully aware.

Was it Ikkyu who was visited by a king who asked him what the teaching
was?

Ikkyu(?) wrote in the soil,"Awareness".

"What does that mean?" inquired the king?

Ikkyu wrote, "Awareness means awareness".

The king, who was getting a little pissed off said, "And what does
that mean!?"

After Ikkyu wrote, "Awareness means awareness means awareness", the
king departed.

[Mahakali]

Hi Richard

thank you for pointing out the mistaken classification of the case at
hand... ;-)

Compassion as already ingrained...interesting!

All the best


Kali

[Rodger]

Richard,

That seems right on,to me.Maybe,also...if you can ask'what does it
mean to be awake',you're awake.A little bit. :)

[godszen]

Richard wrote:
> > what does it mean, to be "awake"?
>
> Tough question. I didn't have a ready answer but think it might be the
> same as being fully aware.

agreed, now who do you know that is fully aware?

[Richard]

If I were fully aware I would be able to recognize them and point them
out.

Whom do you think might make that list?

[Jonatan]

All action is motivated by our mind. It's our tool. To act in the
world we contract ourselves to be able to make sense of things in a
way that is useful to us. There is no practical use in being
everything and nothing mattering at all when you need to fill up your
car with gas at the gasstation to get to work (not that there is any
real need, but you get the point).

Simply sharing when people ask for it is less of a contracted action
than telling people what to think because you think they need to hear
it. But they are both born from the same need to simply understand
better ourselves.

That's my take anyway :)

Oh, and answer like "What is is... you have already answered the
question" or "There is no one there so your question is redundant",
while they may be true, how helpful are they to you in your everyday
life? I find understanding things not on the ultimate level but on all
other levels too much more helpful than to simply go to the simplest
answer everytime.

Our mind is our tool, understanding it (it understanding itself) makes
for more efficient use. I see "oneness" as an awesome filter and point
of view to do this, but to limit yourself and going for the "simple"
answers everytime is lazy :)

On Aug 3, 2:19 pm, MarkJ <mark_jordan2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> What is the motivation behind telling someone about the nature of

[MarkJ]

Hi Jonatan -

Thank you for answering.

I read several of your posts on your blog.


'All action is motivated by our mind. It's our tool.'

To some, mind is a prison. Is there any action that is not motivated
by mind?

Mark

> > motivate and no one motivating)- Hide quoted text -

[Jonatan]

Hey Mark :)

The way I see it. Everything is, and in this isness there's a bunch of
minds that take themselves more or less seriously. What could the
totality of everything ever want to do? It needs to contract itself
into something less than everything to create motviation for doing
things. If we don't belive something matters, why would we ever care
to do it?

Every action is motivated by a belief that is held on to by the mind.

The mind is what we make it, if we never question the habits we form
and the beliefs we adopt, then sure, you could call it a prison. All
it takes is a willingness to question a belief and it will crumble
sooner or later because there is nothing we can belive in that is even
remotely relevant to what is really true.

[herenow]

On Aug 6, 2:13 am, Richard
>

Dear Richard
a re re post to make sure you get this.

Hey Richard I am still learning how to drive this thing plus having a
few internet connection problems...
I tried to send you a personal message earlier on by clicking the
REPLY TO AUTHOR box at the bottom of your post # 20 of "Tell someone"

ANYWAY - I'll REPOST herenow

You asked Anandanand,

"Even though I have a copy of Dasbodh, I never heard how Ram got it.
Maybe it's in the forward of this copy?

Could you please give the story to us?"

--------------------

I'm not sure if you got a satisfactory response but I felt moved to
respond (compassionately?)
and help in any way i can.
So here goes...(again.)

Although I have never read a copy of Das Bodh I have seen the dvd many
times.

It is about a group of young sailors and their experiences serving in
a German U Bodh during world war two.

Quite a good movie -
The only salient reference that i recall is ...
When the captain of the allied detroyer hunting the sub shouts out

"Prepare to Ram."

I hope this helps resolve any quandry you may have been in.

(I would also point out that you may upset some subscribers if you
continue to discuss movies in a group which was set up to deal with
advaitic issues.)

[MarkJ]

Hi Jonatan

If mind is what we make it. Can we control mind?


Mark

> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Jonatan]

Why do you ask?

I have no answers, just random ramblings and thoughts. Control or no
control, who knows. Experience is happening where it seems at times
that by questioning beliefs that I discover I feel a great relief and
letting go of tention in my body, that's all I know.

[Richard]

Hi Jonatan,

Don't know if this is completely relevent but....The thought that the
mind is "our" tool; when it comes to the spiritual search or quest,
why would "our" need any tool? Does "our" need to locate or become
itself and therefore a tool is used?

You place emphasis on the human mind as something to be used as a tool
and not to be used to settle for easy answers. Maybe you give the
human mind more power than its entitled to.

I saw a scientist who said the similarity between human and chimpanzee
genetic material is 99 point something percent. Chimps are intelligent
animals but can never learn multiplication of higher numbers or long
division as can humans.

The scientist takes this a step further. What if on some distant
planet there are beings living in a similar environment to us and they
have simlar genetic makeup with a fraction of one percent difference?

While our kids are watching Sesame Street and learning their ABC's,
their kids might be watching a show where they learn calculus.

He said this to point out the lack of greatness which is often
attributed to the human mind.

[Richard]

Hi Kali,

In your recent posts I think you are pointing out the need-less-ness
of visiting gurus. Yet you have gone to see more teachers than one can
(and probably should) shake a stick at.

Have they served their purpose and can now be discarded? Or have you
become disenchanted in these teachers, realizing they have no answers
that are not already within you? Or what?

Best wishes,
Richard

[Rodger]

and of course it's the human mind which attributes this greatness to
the human mind...or the lack of it.

monkeys can multiply and divide.

[Richard]

On Aug 6, 2:38 pm, Rodger <rodge...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> and of course it's the human mind which attributes this greatness to
> the human mind...or the lack of it.
>
> monkeys can multiply and divide.

According to this scientist they can't multiply *higher* numbers nor
do *long* division.

But maybe they can and are keeping it a secret. And maybe the one
typing this under the name "Richard" is really a chimp. That would
account for all the typos.

[Jonatan]

Hey Richard,

Don't take anything I say too seriously, especially my use words. I
don't feel like spending time covering my conceptual-ass with proper
word-usage :)

The mind IS a tool, this isn't an opinion but a fact. Tell me what you
would be able to do in your everyday life without your mind? It's
obviously there to conceptualize what cannot really be grasped into
graspable pointers that we relate to. Is the concept of food the
actual experience of food? No. Is the concept of food needed to relate
to food and feed our bodies? Yes.

I don't think I fully understand what you're asking. In my eyes, the
mind is nothing but a tool for whatever is actually there (oneness,
emptiness, everythingness) to maintain something that can be conscious
of itself and create meaning and importance where none really exists.

If there is some added meaning that comes with the word "tool" for you
I don't know, but that's all I mean by it :)

[MarkJ]

Hi Jonatan - I ask so you will answer, that's all. Yelling into a
canyon to hear the echo.

I don't really have any questions, it's just circular movement in
mind.

I too have no answers but when asked a question will ramble out what
is there.

Mark

[Rodger]

well,Richard...anytime numbers are multiplied isn't 'higher numbers'
reached? and,as far as long division goes,monkeys don't just pop up
overnight.

but,then,i never was good in math.or,science.class clown.

sorry,Richard.gotta work on this humility thingy.

[Keith Nightingale]

Byi every one
it's coming  up to 6am

it's been great fun playing all night.....but alas
i'm beginning to droop......even more than normal !
night night

[Mahakali]

Hi Richard

It is a big question; at times, I thought I would be searching for the
one who would relieve my mental suffering. Then, once I realized that
this seeing is impersonal, then, how important can a personal
relationship with an individual as such can be? I might as well have
friends and/or family and enjoy myself because 'seeing' is totally
impersonal. I did go to different teachers but not with the idea of
throwing my inadequacies out there towards them, expecting them to
sort 'me' out. I knew too well they were not psychologist or
psychiatrist or medics.

The point about gurus is that it takes two to have a relationship i.e.
a guru and a seeker; there cannot be one without the other. So,
according to my expectations, I also classified the gurus I met. One
was using hypnotism, Gangaji was rather ruthless with her victims, but
commercially very successful; Ramesh liked his Wu Wei Wu and the
doctrine of no-choice etc etc. Also, they are always surrounded by an
entourage which provides a variety of seekers of all kinds, and, very
often the guru, being human, gets into a scandal. So, I've learned to
take whatever good there can be and whenever s/he would give signs of
being alive and being caught up having an affair or in bed with an
attractive devotee, then, I would try to ignore the fact but, once, I
was left with a bitter after taste in my mouth about it. Ideally,
the best thing would be to have a guru who is dead, so, there is no
risk of him/her having a scandal with another human being (lol) .

They all taught me a little bit but they never pointed to what I
really am and they were always external teachers to me. The essence of
Nisargadatta teaching was taught and expounded to me by a very humble,
a Nis ex translator in Mumbai with whom I got on fine. After that, I
had no desire whatsoever to go and look for teachers of any sort
because I knew without the shadow of any doubt that the teaching is
instilled in me and not outside me. Of course, I still carry on being
interested in Advaita and spirituality but without the need for
validation or expecting immediate enlightenment.

Now, since you Richard have brought up the question, it is also time
to thank:

Rodger for bringing me here at AN;
Ram for his invaluable introductions;
Gary for his busy place (AN)
Patrick for teaching me emptiness so well ;-)
and you Richard for being so perceptive.

Kali

[Gary]

Kali:

I'm sure Richard will respond, but I enjoyed your story. I'll clap
with one hand... totally avoiding duality:)

Best,
Gary

[godszen]

Mahakali wrote:
> Ideally,
> the best thing would be to have a guru who is dead, so, there is no
> risk of him/her having a scandal with another human being (lol) .

haha

> They all taught me a little bit but they never pointed to what I
> really am and they were always external teachers to me. The essence of
> Nisargadatta teaching was taught and expounded to me by a very humble,
> a Nis ex translator in Mumbai with whom I got on fine.

who was that?

[godszen]

Richard wrote:
> > agreed, now who do you know that is fully aware?
>
> If I were fully aware I would be able to recognize them and point them
> out.
>
> Whom do you think might make that list?

David Spero?

lastrain?

Leo?

and of course the dead ones;

Nis.

Buddha

Jesus

Krisna

Meher Baba

[MarkJ]

GZ and Richard -

If Jesus, what about Paul of Tarsus, John the Baptist, Peter and the
Apostles, Solomon, David, the Prophets of the Torah?

What about Bubba Free John, Ram Das, J Krishnamurti, Sailor Bob,
Eckhart Tolle.

Was U.G. Krishnamurti fully aware?

What is the indicator? What is the unseen implicit essence of the way
the aware interact that says 'I am aware'?

Mark

[Gary]

MarkJ:

You forget the most important questions. What gives you the amazing
perceptive abilities to determine the answer to these questions?

Which of you can judge another?

[MarkJ]

Thanks Gary

> > > Meher Baba- Hide quoted text -

[godszen]

MarkJ wrote:
> What is the indicator?  What is the unseen implicit essence of the way
> the aware interact that says 'I am aware'?

intuition, their words

you could probably add eckhart tolle to that list

the others I don't know enough about

[MarkJ]

Thanks godszen

[Richard]

On Aug 6, 2:51 pm, Jonatan <jon...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey Richard,
>
> Don't take anything I say too seriously, especially my use words. I
> don't feel like spending time covering my conceptual-ass with proper
> word-usage :)

This explanation covers your conceptual-ass. :-)

> The mind IS a tool, this isn't an opinion but a fact. Tell me what you
> would be able to do in your everyday life without your mind? It's
> obviously there to conceptualize what cannot really be grasped into
> graspable pointers that we relate to.

Interesting, Jonatan.

True, the mind, as part of the mind/body complex is a useful member of
that team (mind/body). Without mind, body would perish and Einstein
said the body's function was to contain the brain.

But what I was talking about was the spiritual quest. There the mind/
body/intellect are without relevance at best, and a hindrance at
worst. Only God can know God.

Don't believe evrything you think.

Richard

[Richard]

On Aug 6, 6:19 pm, Mahakali <Maha.Ka...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Now, since you Richard have brought up the question, it is also time
> to thank:
>
> Rodger for bringing me here at AN;
> Ram for his invaluable introductions;
> Gary for his busy place (AN)
> Patrick for teaching me emptiness so well ;-)
> and you Richard for being so perceptive.
>
> Kali

If I have helped anyone intentionally or unintentionally, my pleasure.

If I have harmed or annoyed anyone intentionally or unintentionally,
sorry.

I've enjoyed the interaction.

[Rodger]

'without mind,body would perish'

Body perishes...mind or no mind.

'only God can know God'.

You think? ('don't believe everything you think')

What,which God are you talking about? The God you know,the God you
don't know,the God you think you know,the God you think you don't
know!!??

What does 'knowing God' have to do with 'spiritual quest'?

[godszen]

Rodger wrote:
> What does 'knowing God' have to do with 'spiritual quest'?

God is what you are

[Mahakali]

Hi Godzen, I think I forgot to thank you too for AdvaitaZen and being
such an understanding person.

Also, I must thank Sandeep for his verses and poetry here and his
wonderful website...


Kali

[Richard]

On Aug 8, 4:46 am, Rodger <rodge...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> What does 'knowing God' have to do with 'spiritual quest'?
>

It says in the Bible, God is spirit and you should worship Him in
spirit and in truth.

[MarkJ]

Hi Richard -

What is worship? Isn't the call of the New Testiment to worship Jesus
as the revelation and only begotten son of the Father

If we are God how do we worship ourselves?

Do you see yourself as God? What is your form of worship in spirit
and truth?

Mark

[Richard]

I don't see myself as God. I see God as myself.

I meditate and get out of His way. And do so in innocence and
humility. So that He may know Himself through me and as me.

This by stopping all mental efforts. "Be still and know I am God".

This may be surprising to some because the persona I wear is far from
humble or innocent.

[godszen]

woderful

[Jonatan]

Hey Richard,

> This explanation covers your conceptual-ass. :-)

Thank you for allowing me to cover my conceptual-ass with not much
effort at all, it can be very cumbersome at times :p

> But what I was talking about was the spiritual quest. There the mind/
> body/intellect are without relevance at best, and a hindrance at
> worst. Only God can know God.

Well, all I can really do is look at what I've done, and what I've
experienced has worked for me. So anything I write about is something
that I've experienced and done myself.

If you go straight for the spiritual stuff, experiencing
everythingness, emptiness, blahblah. It's SO easy to get sidetracked
by your own mind. For me what brought clarity and a glimpse of what's
really there (nothing, ha!) was relentless questioning of beliefs that
I held and the falling away of these that followed once I was able to
see that they were as substantial as soap-bubbles in a tornado.

I'm not sure what kind of meaning the words "Spiritual Quest" holds
for you, but if I would find something in my past experience and call
it MY spiritual quest, then I would say that understanding my own mind
and how it works was very helpful in growing into viewing the world
from the point of view of "everything" instead of "me".

By questioning belief after belief with real honesty, I soon found
that none of them really held any truth. And for every belief that I
saw through my mind was able to relax more and more. With this
relaxation there was more space to experience what WAS true, what was
really there, instead of being constantly distracted by my own
thoughts.

There's as many paths as there are people, this one happened to work
for me :)

[Sandeep-Kuber Technologies]

Hello Jonatan,

Some idle observing in-between, as below.



Jonatan wrote:

<snip>

Well, all I can really do is look at what I've done, and what I've
experienced has worked for me. So anything I write about is something
that I've experienced and done myself.

If you go straight for the spiritual stuff, experiencing
everythingness, emptiness, blahblah. It's SO easy to get sidetracked
by your own mind. For me what brought clarity and a glimpse of what's
really there (nothing, ha!) was relentless questioning of beliefs that
I held and the falling away of these that followed once I was able to
see that they were as substantial as soap-bubbles in a tornado.
  

In the relentless questioning of the beliefs, wondering whether the questioning ever turned onto
the believer of these beliefs?

From the soap-bubbles onto the tornado?

I'm not sure what kind of meaning the words "Spiritual Quest" holds
for you, but if I would find something in my past experience and call
it MY spiritual quest, then I would say that understanding my own mind
and how it works was very helpful

In the understanding of the mind and its working........was it really that the working was understood?

Or what was understood  was the inferred notionality of a thingy called the mind?

Which would make the deciphering of the mechanics of a notion and conclusions arrived thereof,

more notional stuff.

 

 in growing into viewing the world
from the point of view of "everything" instead of "me".
  

Curious how are the day-to-day-activities of life now unfolding, from this "everything" viewpoint?

By questioning belief after belief with real honesty, I soon found
that none of them really held any truth. And for every belief that I
saw through my mind was able to relax more and more. With this
relaxation there was more space to experience what WAS true, what was
really there,

This experience of what Was true/what was really there.....

.....would that be the new belief?

After all beliefs, whether first hand or second hand are really experiences, isn't it?

 

 instead of being constantly distracted by my own
thoughts.
  

The noticing that you got distracted by thoughts......

......would this be another thought?

There's as many paths as there are people, this one happened to work
for me :)
  

:-)

And from the "everything" viewpoint, what happens to people?

From the "everything" viewpoint, what happens to the ....as many paths as many people?





A morning when torrential rains, water seepage from the window sill and the aromatic pheromones of a hot cuppa,
invokes some idle... zip-a-dee-dah-dooo......ing.

[Jonatan]

Hello Sandeep,

Nothing... nothing happens. Words are filling empty space that the
lack of beliefs left behind, in a vain attempt to entertain the mind
that isn't there in the first place.

I thought I already covered my conceptual-ass? :p

> In the relentless questioning of the beliefs, wondering whether the
> questioning ever turned onto
> the believer of these beliefs?

I would put it like this.. When the there wasn't much left to
question, not much that was believed anymore. The deeper beliefs were
brought up, "I am here", "I am", "I"... once these fall away, what is
left to question and who would be there to do the questioning?
Everything simply is.

> Curious how are the day-to-day-activities of life now unfolding, from
> this "everything" viewpoint?

They're not. To have things unfold there needs to be a little bit of
"me" viewpoint mixed in. The everything viewpoint is something I take
small sips of now and then when I feel it's time. It's nice to have
around, and to know it's there. But life seems utterly boring and
meaningless if you have it with you all the time.

> This experience of what Was true/what was really there.....
>
> .....would that be the new belief?
>
> After all beliefs, whether first hand or second hand are really
> experiences, isn't it?

No belief is needed to experience what is, since it's right infront of
your nose. What is is, even when there's belief. But we tend not to
notice that until the beliefs have been questioned.

> In the understanding of the mind and its working........was it really
> that the working was understood?
>
> Or what was understood  was the inferred notionality of a thingy called
> the mind?
>
> Which would make the deciphering of the mechanics of a notion and
> conclusions arrived thereof,
>
> more notional stuff.

Oh you've done this before haven't you? :)

Feel free to rip me a new one as many times as you want. I KNOW it's
all bullshit anyway. But fucking shoot me dead I have nothing better
to do so here I am. Typing long useless posts about bullshit that
doesn't matter :)

With all of that said I'd like to point out like I already did before;
In the wake of seeing all as one, what is there left to do but to live
out what seems to be living itself out, as flesh, body and mind. And
if it so happens that there is interest in reflecting over the
workings of the so called mind (that isn't there) to figure out how to
better (yes yes, I know) make use of it, what else to do than to go
along with this crazy notion of actually making things seem more fun
and awesome!

I for one, however unreal I may be, seem to gravitate towards awesome
and fun happenings over awesomless and unfun ones. And to this end it
has so far been helpful to allow an understanding to grow about the
mind (that isn't there) and how it percieves and creates the
experience we seem to be having.

And I may add, that seeing things from the "everything" viewpoint is a
great start to learn a lot about how the mind we all seem to have
(there, I said it!) really works, no longer being so personally
involved allows us a fresh view on our old shit. Not that there is any
kind of need to do this, so if your boat is floating in another
direction, float away :p

/J

On Aug 9, 7:06 am, Sandeep-Kuber Technologies

[Rodger]

Godszen,

Ok,'God is what you are'.

What is 'what you are'? God?

What is 'God'? What you are?

Isn't this just 'the same stuff'?

It's all stuff.The same stuff.

[Rodger]

'I' don't see (myself as God).
'I' do see (God as myself).

I don't see.
I do see.
I see I don't see.

There is seeing.
And,whether it is God I see
or God I don't see,
there is only I seeing the seeing
or don't seeing.

Know thyself.
Love thyself.
Give thyself.


Worship is love of self...Self.

The body is the temple...

All bodies are temples.

[herenow]

Jonatan ----

Feel free to rip me a new one as many times as you want. I KNOW it's
all bullshit anyway. But fucking shoot me dead I have nothing better
to do so here I am. Typing long useless posts about bullshit that
doesn't matter :)

--------------------------------
CROWD -

"OOOOH ...a BLASphemer, BLASphemer

Stone him!!!! Stone him !!!!
---------------------------------

Jonatan -----

to learn a lot about how the mind we all seem to have
(there, I said it!)

--------------------------------
Guard -

"Look you're only making it worse for yourself!"

-------------------

herenow --- seems to float my boat !!!

So much truth ...now with added fun, mystery and just a hint of
swearing.

works for me.....

amen.

[herenow]

PS

We'll be round to rip you a new one

ASAP.

[Jonatan]

> We'll be round to rip you a new one

:)

Anytime!

[MarkJ]

> Feel free to rip me a new one as many times as you want. I KNOW it's
> all bullshit anyway. But fucking shoot me dead I have nothing better
> to do so here I am. Typing long useless posts about bullshit that
> doesn't matter :)

Amen brother! Put me on this list too.

What would kittens do with their time if they didn't play?

Mark

> > > humble or innocent.- Hide quoted text -

[Mahakali]

Richard wrote:

> This may be surprising to some because the persona I wear is far from humble or innocent.

shock and surprise!

Kali ;-)

[MarkJ]

Thanks Richard

'I don't see myself as God. I see God as myself.'

I don't understand a difference here.

'God in you' was the promise of Jesus.

I suppose it's all linguistics and could be understood differently in
an esoteric light.

Was Jesus God?

Are we the same as Jesus?

Mark

[MarkJ]

> I don't see.
> I do see.
> I see I don't see.

That's fun.

> Know thyself.
> Love thyself.
> Give thyself.
>
> Worship is love of self...Self.

What is love? Who defines it? What happens when love occurs?

> The body is the temple...
>
> All bodies are temples.

All is sacred?

[Richard]

:-)

[Richard]

Hi Mark,

I'll intersperse my comments among yours.

On Aug 9, 12:42 pm, MarkJ <mark_jordan2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Thanks Richard
>
> 'I don't see myself as God. I see God as myself.'
>
> I don't understand a difference here.

God is all. He is Richard, Mark, and dog. Thinking that individual
Richard, Mark, or dog is God, Who is the totality is emphasising the
wrong end of the telescope. Of course, in the absolute, there is only
the One.

>
> 'God in you' was the promise of Jesus.
>
> I suppose it's all linguistics and could be understood differently in
> an esoteric light.
>
> Was Jesus God?

Yes. In Hinduism there is nirguna, formless worship and saguna,
worshipping with form. Jesus was God in form. "If you have seen me,
you have seen the Father."

> Are we the same as Jesus?

Jesus said, and I paraphrase, What I have done you can do, and more.

He also said, Don't your scriptures say 'Ye are gods'? Here he spoke
of the writings in the Old Testament.

[Richard]

Hi Jonatan,

Thanks for sharing the process 'you' underwent and the viewpoint you
gathered.

Best wishes,
Richard

[Rodger]

who defines love? You do.

who defines sacred?

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[MarkJ]

> I'll intersperse my comments among yours.

Sounds like fun.

'Who is the totality is emphasising the wrong end of the telescope.'

Isn't the telescope mind? Isn't vision the action of mind?

> Jesus said, and I paraphrase, What I have done you can do, and more.

about miricles - you will do these and more in my name.

Don't your scriptures say 'Ye are gods'? Here he spoke
> of the writings in the Old Testament.

About being higher than the angels but not the Ain Soph Aur which is
the same as parabraman. Which is before thought.


Mark

[MarkJ]

who defines sacred?

Religion.

I am sacred, you are sacred.

I am secular, you are secular.

I am love, you are love.

[Beyond-I-AM]

Yes, so much of 'me' and 'my' presented as authoritative perspective.

No worry for the covering of one's conceptual ass as long as one isn't
bending over to pick up the conceptual bar of soap in the conceptual
shower of one's own conceptual loftiness.

Bozo says "Moo", and right out of the tornado the bubble pops, poof...

[MarkJ]

The madness: 'concensous is authority'. Who is the concensous?
Mind?

Authority is given to the one who "knows". Who says they know? You
do.

Me says My words are no more valuable than dirt.

Mark

> > Richard- Hide quoted text -

[Jonatan]

> Yes, so much of 'me' and 'my' presented as authoritative perspective.

Oh fuck off... this is what makes my makes my clock tick. YOU wouldn't
be here if in the first place if you didn't have your own
authoratative perspectives giving you a certain flavour of the
experience we're all having. So what's the point in constantly
pointing back to this as something that's not even worth discussing.
Just because it has been seen that nothing really matters in the end,
all the mind-stuff that's still there no longer has any effect on the
experience we have?

I call bullshit.

It would be interesting to know how many of you word-playing
backpointing flimsy doodledoos actually have gotten further than doing
the conceptual dance. As in really learning to live what you've
realized and creating change in your lives based on your realization
(oh my god, I think you can rip me 5 or 6 new ones with just that
sentence).

Dance the word dance in all eternity. For me the interesting part is
what we actually do with the fresh perspective rather than re-
affirming that we really know it forever and ever.

*Waits for the comments about clock-ticking, creating change,
realization, learning to live, and how what I just wrote is yet
another flimsy leaf in the river of life* - Here's a preemptive reply:
FUCK YOU!

(I reserve the right not to be taken seriously at all)

[MarkJ]

I think I love you.

Amen on high.

If only speculation and theory then I say 'CRAP'.

I know nothing but what I know and that I question every moment.

Prove it! Live it! Love it! Suffering? What can suffer if no me?

Mark

> > > Richard- Hide quoted text -

[Richard]

Part 2 of my response:

Richard: I don't see myself as God. I see God as myself.

Mark: I don't understand a difference here.

I guess I'm talking logic here.

dog=animal
cat=animal
therefore, dog=cat

This faulty logic happens when the subset is considered as the
category.

dog=animal but animal isn't limited to dog. Otherwise the definition
would be too narrow.

[Richard]

Hey Jonatan,

I like your blog.

But tell me, do you eat with that mouth?

If I were still co-moderator, your posts would have been deleted due
to language and showing lack of respect. (I know---fuck me!)

I think the advaita police were too tough on you though, so don't
misinterpret the following as criticism, they are sincere questions:

You say: "For me the interesting part is what we actually do with the

fresh perspective rather than re-
affirming that we really know it forever and ever."

I like this and wonder what it is we can do with the fresh
perspective? Is there any practicality in it at all?

All the best,
Richard

[MarkJ]

Really? Logic?

That's a low blow. =)

What does logic have to do with something that exists outside of mind?

Don't answer that. Let's just say that this was fun and move on.

Mark

[godszen]

Rodger wrote:
> Ok,'God is what you are'.
>
> What is 'what you are'?

a sun, shining presence

[Gary]

godzen:


Perhaps "a sun, shining presence" is the best of all descriptions in
that I don't have a clue what you are talking about, so I can't
possible form a mental image. Your description just puts my mind in
neutral. Now, if I begin to think about self-effulgent, then my mind
can get back to conceptual LaLa land.

[Beyond-I-AM]

My, my, aren't we touchy. While I agree with your comments about
shedding false beliefs about who/what we are, it seems that when it is
even hinted at that you are still holding on to some unexamined
beliefs, you start cursing the commenter ane dismiss the invited
comments. I understand, its what makes your click tick, whomever you
are taking yourself to be.

As for being here in the first place, where am I? Everywhere and
nowhere, but who's in last place? No, who's on first! I don't know,
who's on second?....

"Just because it has been seen that nothing really matters in the end,
all the mind-stuff that's still there no longer has any effect on the
experience we have?"

The mindstuff is the experience of the 'experiencer.' Removing the
experiencer from the equation, experience happens. No need for
anything called the mind to label anything as good or bad, or think
that some appearances are "fun and awesome" and thus preferable to the
appearances which are labled as being un-fun and awesomeless.
Statements about such preferences can only be made from the
perspective of the unexamined belief in the reality of the individual
experiencer. Same with learning to live your life with a fresh
perspective. From a different perspective than yours, fresh
perspective is always fresh, no need to learn how to live with it. As
soon as one trys to live with a fresh perspective, it becomes stale
when trying maintain it (trying to hold on to the beliefs of how life
SHOULD be lived, and that there is an individual learner, as they slip
through your conceptual fingers), and voila, fresh perspective
spontaneously appears. Tick, tock.

Yes, bullshit indeed. Who's really fucked in your scenario?

"(I reserve the right not to be taken seriously at all)"

Are we supposed to take you seriously about that comment? Ironic, huh?
I would take you seriously, but it seems you are already taking
yourself seriously enough for the lot of us. :)

Previously you wrote:

"The everything viewpoint is something I take small sips of now and
then when I feel it's time. It's nice to have around, and to know it's
there. But life seems utterly boring and meaningless if you have it
with you all the time."

Again, here these comments can only be made if the unexamined belief
in the individual experiencer remains intact. Believe it or not, the
everything viewpoint is Consciousness which is always around, but in
your statement, it seems to be taking large gulps of the unexamined
"I" that thinks life is boring with Consciousness being around all the
time. Consciousness is LIFE and it is around all the time, regardless
of whether the imagined individual thinks he chooses to takes sips of
it or not. The ocean swallows the drop, the drop does not swallow the
ocean. Frankly, from here the belief in an individual who sips from
Consciousness when he deems it time, is really what is boring and
meaningless.

No belief is needed to experience what is, since it's right infront of
your nose. What is is, even when there's belief. But we tend not to
notice that until the beliefs have been questioned.

You also wrote:

"In the wake of seeing all as one, what is there left to do but to
live out what seems to be living itself out, as flesh, body and

mind...."

"Seems to be," is the key phrase here. Life living itself out as the
flesh, body, and mind, are but a small fraction of the equation of
life living itself. Life is really fun and awesome when it is seen
that the flesh, body, and mind do their thing without the need for a
belief that there is an individual who steers their destiny. You claim
to have thoroughly discarded all false beliefs, but it seems apparent
that this is not truly the case. Still a few to go my friend.

"it has so far been helpful to allow an understanding to grow about
the mind (that isn't there) and how it percieves and creates the
experience we seem to be having."

Good, but don't stop just yet. Still some of that conglomeration of
concepts called mind that have yet to be unravelled.

"No belief is needed to experience what is, since it's right infront
of your nose. What is is, even when there's belief. But we tend not to
notice that until the beliefs have been questioned."

Yes, no belief needed to experience what is. In front of your nose if
you are identified with the body, in front of the nose as well as
behind the 'smeller' and in between as the smell, if you're not.

BTW, meaningful discourse (which seems so important to you) is more
than a stating of one's currently held beliefs (unseen as they may be)
and then offering a kind "Fuck you very much" when invited comments
are presented.

Take equal parts bullshit, stir with the stick of letters and words,
and you have AdvaitaNow.

The right to not take 'myself' seriously has already been reserved so
y'all won't have to. However there are seats available in the non-
smoking section.

[Rodger]

i don't know about the rest of you,but i take my fucking
seriously.it's too much fun not to.and,i really don't give a fuck if
there's nobody here to fuck or get fucked.or if fucking never really
happens nor ever will.

fuck off?

fuck on!

(you guys are fucking lucky to have such fucking wisdom passed on to
you.)

[Jonatan]

You didn't answer my question:

"It would be interesting to know how many of you word-playing
backpointing flimsy doodledoos actually have gotten further than
doing
the conceptual dance. As in really learning to live what you've
realized and creating change in your lives based on your realization
(oh my god, I think you can rip me 5 or 6 new ones with just that
sentence)."

Why I call bullshit to all of your post again is because just as
you're projecting beliefs about how I "still have beliefs to shed" and
hence my points have no substance at all. I can bet my left leg on
that you're not living what you're preaching. Every single "person" in
here has beliefs to shed, we wouldn't be here if we didn't still hold
on to beliefs. Who would we be, coming in here, typing to other
people, writing shit, if we didn't think it mattered, even if just for
a moment, just a little bit, enough so it's worhtwhile to even do it.

> Again, here these comments can only be made if the unexamined belief
> in the individual experiencer remains intact.

AS IF yours wasn't, jesus christ, how high is that horse?

Note: The f**k you at the bottom of my post was for you.

You can keep making assumptions about "me", and I can keep making
assumptions about "you". Or you can just wake up and smell the shit in
your own head. And realize that even if you've seen that all of this
wonderfull oneness, emptiness, everythingness, that simply is, where
nothing as earthly as we, me, you, thoughts, beliefs, are real. That
even there, your mind still seems to be around, and it's still filled
with STUFF. We can view that stuff in whatever way we wish to, but
it's still there. And it still has an effect on whatever experience
you're having. Now if this is of no interest to you, and you're ok
with living at the whim of your own conditioning, be my guest, have
fun. Just leave my posts alone please, because I'm not interested in
your self-affirming bullshit projected at me as "advice".

(I know I'm coming off as an ass, it's my natural reaction to reading
this stuff. And I'm consciously allowing it because I'm ok with coming
off as an ass sometimes, especially when people are stubborn and
narrow-minded)

>You say: "For me the interesting part is what we actually do with the

>fresh perspective rather than re-
>affirming that we really know it forever and ever."
>

>I like this and wonder what it is we can do with the fresh
>perspective? Is there any practicality in it at all?

I find that allowing the prespective to "shine through" the beliefs we
may hold is a very effective way of dissolving them. Simply taking
anything that comes up that you don't understand or see right away
that "oh, this is just a belief I happen to be having right now" and
sitting down with it and seeing it from the "everything" point of view
for a while. Once you do this enough times it becomes less and less
conscious and more of a habit.

Whatever anyone of you say, I KNOW you're not walking around
constantly blissed out, totally in sync with the universe and
completely in the "everything" perspective. I know this purely by the
fact that you're writing and replying here.

Now if some of you really have mastered this, and simply take on
beliefs when it suits you and they are practical and letting them go
the second when you're done with them. Huge amounts of respect to you,
but if you had done this you would understand what I'm trying to get
at when I'm writing. I can't say I'm doing this all the time myself,
but I'm learning. I do see that the fact that this even matters is yet
another belief, but what else to do? What else to fill the time with
but to adopt some cool beliefs and go with it? You tell me.

What I'm saying about life being boring from the "everything"
perspective... well, it is. How entertaining would any activity be
without the belief that it held some kind of meaning? Everytime one of
you sit down and writes something here you're doing it beacuse you've
adopted a belief that tells you that it's worthwhile, in some way. Be
it as simple as "_I_ am here, so _I_ can write to these _other_
people". It would not just be unentertaining, it wouldn't even happen
in the first place without the beliefs.

No bad words this time, this time all of you get a big hug instead

*big hug*

/J

[Rodger]

i tried the 'big hug' thingy once.it didn't really work then
either.so...fuck you.

:)

> > smoking section.- Hide quoted text -

[Jonatan]

lol
Fuck you too :)

> > > The right to not take 'myself' seriously has already...
>
> läs mer »

[Rodger]

lol? they say fucking laughter is the best medicine.

> > > > BTW, meaningful discourse- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -...
>
> read more »

[herenow]

Hi everyone

I see things have been moving on well herenow.

J

"you word-playing
backpointing flimsy doodledoos"

good point, well thought out !!! :)

and to think we all know each other so well and are ACTUALLY having
inner dramas based on some black dots on a vdu

you know we could all be bots!!!

our personal space/confusion/smugly not here/humbly not here/unsure
about our unsureness etc etc etc is only open truly to us

so
guess what
IF there is any work to do

that's where we have to do it.

online can be fun but words can't touch your inner being/truth

> ...
>
> read more »

[Rodger]

Jonathan,

You do understand my comments as humor,right? Hope so. No disrespect
intended.I enjoyed your posts,actually.

On a serious note,'personally',who walks the walk and who doesn't I
consider basically as none of my business.So,I don't really wonder
about that.

I think 'realization' creates it's own change.I mean,nothing really
has to be done or practiced upon realization.For instance,if your
thumb is hurting and it's realized it's because you are smacking it
with your hammer,do you practice not smacking it? If it's realized
your face is wet because you're spitting in the wind,do you practice
not spitting in the wind?

> > > > > "No belief is needed to experience what is, since- Hide quoted text -

[Jonatan]

On 10 Aug, 17:27, Rodger <rodge...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Jonathan,
>
> You do understand my comments as humor,right?

Yes :)

> I think 'realization' creates it's own change.I mean,nothing really
> has to be done or practiced upon realization.For instance,if your
> thumb is hurting and it's realized it's because you are smacking it
> with your hammer,do you practice not smacking it? If it's realized
> your face is wet because you're spitting in the wind,do you practice
> not spitting in the wind?

And if you keep projecting "advice" that's neither wanted or needed at
people who tell you to fuck off, you might stop. lol :p

I agree with you, whatever we realize creates it own change. I just
happen to feel like spending my time understanding that change, it
interests and challenges my mind :)

Change only happens when we are sick enough of what we already have,
otherwise there'd be no motivation to change. In other words, anyone
who isn't walking the talk will keep on not walking the talk until
they are so sick of it that they'll actually try walking for a change.
And I'm totally cool with that, none of my business, me being cool
with it doesn't stop me from slapping people on their fingers when
they bug me though :) - Who knows, might even motivate them to get on
their feet.

I haven't posted a lot here, but the times I have I've felt a tendency
to just

> > > > > > live out what seems to be living itself...
>
> läs mer »

[Jonatan]

> I haven't posted a lot here, but the times I have I've felt a tendency
> to just

Errh... defeated by technology. Just ignore that bit, I'll save it for
another time :p

> > > > > > > everything viewpoint is Consciousness which is...
>
> läs mer »

[Mahakali]

By any chance, would anyone fancy a discussion on the Ego(s)? ;-)


Kali

> > smoking section.- Hide quoted text -