Dvaita
0 views
Skip to first unread message
Richard
May 5, 2008, 12:05:51 AM5/5/08
to AdvaitaNow
Dvaita:
There is something greater than/ prior to/ beyond/ earler than/ closer
to us than the mind-body-intellect complex. This I believe. My
question is why is That in which we live, move, and have our being,
why is That not a God, Who is Other?
Where is the justification for the leap which assumes That to be we?
There is something greater than/ prior to/ beyond/ earler than/ closer
to us than the mind-body-intellect complex. This I believe. My
question is why is That in which we live, move, and have our being,
why is That not a God, Who is Other?
Where is the justification for the leap which assumes That to be we?
godszen
May 5, 2008, 4:16:01 AM5/5/08
to AdvaitaNow
Richard wrote:
> My question is why is That in which we live, move, and have our being,
> why is That not a God, Who is Other?
who said That is not a God?> My question is why is That in which we live, move, and have our being,
> why is That not a God, Who is Other?
empty2
May 5, 2008, 7:52:12 AM5/5/08
to AdvaitaNow
Perhaps because right now and always, the existence of anything else
including god/gods etc depends on I/we/you. When there's no-one to see
there's nothing to be seen, thought, conceived, believed or otherwise
perceived.....or apperceived. Subject and object depending totally on
each other for their simultaneous existence, unable to be separated,
there is in fact no 'other', at least, not in these terms.
including god/gods etc depends on I/we/you. When there's no-one to see
there's nothing to be seen, thought, conceived, believed or otherwise
perceived.....or apperceived. Subject and object depending totally on
each other for their simultaneous existence, unable to be separated,
there is in fact no 'other', at least, not in these terms.
Mahakali
May 5, 2008, 10:58:48 AM5/5/08
to AdvaitaNow
Richard wrote:
> Where is the justification for the leap which assumes That to be we?
The justification resides in your personal, direct experience of That.
> Where is the justification for the leap which assumes That to be we?
Ultimately, it is you who makes the final judgement about the
result...
Kali
Richard
May 5, 2008, 11:51:12 AM5/5/08
to AdvaitaNow
advocates Oneness without Other. While it is Dvaita which says there
IS Other, which can be worshipped as separate from and greater than
ourselves.
empty2
May 5, 2008, 12:44:13 PM5/5/08
to AdvaitaNow
They say what you believe eventually comes true and I don't believe
'advaitins' are any different in that, though they may accept that all
belief as an individual concept, has to eventually disappear.
('beyond' that there would be no such name)
It is thus said that we never doubt that anoher breath will come, one
step follow another, or that sleep will not be followed by waking,
only because we believe it 100%, as with the rest of our apparent
existence. So in the same way, usng the power of belief to conceive of
a personalised god, an 'other' greater self that personifies the
'answer' to life's apparent deficiencies, can lead to its fulfilment,
as countless saints and sages, not least Sri Ramakrishna have
attested. The latter's story is particularly relevant in that he
realised the continuous divine presence of his 'mother', godess Kali,
first, but later was obliged to 'cut her image in two' before he could
merge in the supreme formless Brahman. Interestingly it was Kali
herself (who else) who, as she told him, brought the advaitin Totapuri
to teach him just that.
The communal imagination/belief of Hindus in the seemingly eternal
family of gods and goddesses and their countless stories - all
directed to encouraging self-knowledge and indeed the final negation
yet inclusion of all such concepts, is IMHO one of the crowning
glories of human culture. But that's a 'personal' view and derived
from some years immersed in that environment; nevertheless,
imagination/belief is as much anyone's right as it is their state of
being.
'advaitins' are any different in that, though they may accept that all
belief as an individual concept, has to eventually disappear.
('beyond' that there would be no such name)
It is thus said that we never doubt that anoher breath will come, one
step follow another, or that sleep will not be followed by waking,
only because we believe it 100%, as with the rest of our apparent
existence. So in the same way, usng the power of belief to conceive of
a personalised god, an 'other' greater self that personifies the
'answer' to life's apparent deficiencies, can lead to its fulfilment,
as countless saints and sages, not least Sri Ramakrishna have
attested. The latter's story is particularly relevant in that he
realised the continuous divine presence of his 'mother', godess Kali,
first, but later was obliged to 'cut her image in two' before he could
merge in the supreme formless Brahman. Interestingly it was Kali
herself (who else) who, as she told him, brought the advaitin Totapuri
to teach him just that.
The communal imagination/belief of Hindus in the seemingly eternal
family of gods and goddesses and their countless stories - all
directed to encouraging self-knowledge and indeed the final negation
yet inclusion of all such concepts, is IMHO one of the crowning
glories of human culture. But that's a 'personal' view and derived
from some years immersed in that environment; nevertheless,
imagination/belief is as much anyone's right as it is their state of
being.
godszen
May 6, 2008, 2:23:38 AM5/6/08
to AdvaitaNow
interestingly God is both other and your own self
Marcus
May 6, 2008, 7:55:24 AM5/6/08
to AdvaitaNow
Alpha and omega.
Does the tree know it’s part of a forest ??
.
>
> - Show quoted text -
Richard
May 6, 2008, 10:44:55 PM5/6/08
to AdvaitaNow
And if it falls does it make a sound? It doesn't. And the egg came
before the chicken if evolution is believed to be the case.
Anandanand
May 7, 2008, 7:36:43 AM5/7/08
to AdvaitaNow
Reading & re-reading, I could not get to the core issue.
So I will state my own beliefs. I firmly believe in a god other that
me, I have my own reasons for this.
I suppose I can give my views pertaining to the questions.
"Why is that which we live .... not God ?" I can't, because that is
not entirely in my control (I don't mean free will) and taking
something, which is unable to control, to be God will be opposite to
my belief. (Then why is my belief so important to have greater
importance than God ?)
I don't know exactly about the leap, so can't think of justification.
Getting difficult these days.
So I will state my own beliefs. I firmly believe in a god other that
me, I have my own reasons for this.
I suppose I can give my views pertaining to the questions.
"Why is that which we live .... not God ?" I can't, because that is
not entirely in my control (I don't mean free will) and taking
something, which is unable to control, to be God will be opposite to
my belief. (Then why is my belief so important to have greater
importance than God ?)
I don't know exactly about the leap, so can't think of justification.
Getting difficult these days.
Marcus
May 7, 2008, 11:21:20 AM5/7/08
to AdvaitaNow
.
When God created dinosaurs was he trying out a few new ideas.
Like a trial run, see what happens ??
Those early humans, the Neanderthal humans you know, the ugly ones.
They had a bit of a bad deal. Chased into extinction by us, the humus-
erectus. That’s not very nice. Why where the chimpanzees left out
when they where handing out the ability to create wordy sentences.
Logically there must be a creator. A force which governs the physical
laws on which we depend. That balances all forces that we may type
these words.
If I exist enough to type this then there must be a purpose. If there
is purpose there is design. If there is design, there is a designer.
But to suggest we could understand such a force is only human ego. I
am still trying to get my head round the video recorder, yes don’t
even mention DVD players.
Design is. Purpose is. Physical law is. This moment is. You
reading this is.
Without structure what’s the point ???
Why can’t God be all forces every where in this moment. Including
what you think is you.
.
> > Where is the justification for the leap which assumes That to be we?- Hide quoted text -
When God created dinosaurs was he trying out a few new ideas.
Like a trial run, see what happens ??
Those early humans, the Neanderthal humans you know, the ugly ones.
They had a bit of a bad deal. Chased into extinction by us, the humus-
erectus. That’s not very nice. Why where the chimpanzees left out
when they where handing out the ability to create wordy sentences.
Logically there must be a creator. A force which governs the physical
laws on which we depend. That balances all forces that we may type
these words.
If I exist enough to type this then there must be a purpose. If there
is purpose there is design. If there is design, there is a designer.
But to suggest we could understand such a force is only human ego. I
am still trying to get my head round the video recorder, yes don’t
even mention DVD players.
Design is. Purpose is. Physical law is. This moment is. You
reading this is.
Without structure what’s the point ???
Why can’t God be all forces every where in this moment. Including
what you think is you.
.
godszen
May 7, 2008, 2:21:36 PM5/7/08
to AdvaitaNow
Anandanand wrote:
> I firmly believe in a god other than me,
> I firmly believe in a god other than me,
> I have my own reasons for this.
may I ask what the reasons are?
jaiguru
May 7, 2008, 3:26:44 PM5/7/08
to AdvaitaNow
The waves are no different from the ocean, in the same way, though men
and women, birdsand beasts, insects and worms, appear in different
forms, there is nothing in this world other than God.
Sri Omkarnath says: "There is just one life force behind all beings.
One akasha [Ether] has given rise to vayu [Air], it is just one Lord
of all lives who isperforming the divine sport, and He has assumed the
shape of Sitaram and all of you. Even though the bodies are different,
the life force is the same. Just one Being has assumed several forms.
Assuming varied forms He alone perfoms Leela [Divine Sport]. Spiritual
practices and worship is directed towards unfolding this Leela, the
mystery of His Divine Sport. The differences are perceived because of
the daivi maya [His deluding potency]."
and women, birdsand beasts, insects and worms, appear in different
forms, there is nothing in this world other than God.
Sri Omkarnath says: "There is just one life force behind all beings.
One akasha [Ether] has given rise to vayu [Air], it is just one Lord
of all lives who isperforming the divine sport, and He has assumed the
shape of Sitaram and all of you. Even though the bodies are different,
the life force is the same. Just one Being has assumed several forms.
Assuming varied forms He alone perfoms Leela [Divine Sport]. Spiritual
practices and worship is directed towards unfolding this Leela, the
mystery of His Divine Sport. The differences are perceived because of
the daivi maya [His deluding potency]."
Gary
May 8, 2008, 2:09:49 AM5/8/08
to AdvaitaNow
Jaiguru:
Now, even I can enjoy your posts. You get the AdvaitaNow award for
most improved posts. I'm glad that you hung around.
Best,
Gary
Now, even I can enjoy your posts. You get the AdvaitaNow award for
most improved posts. I'm glad that you hung around.
Best,
Gary
Anandanand
May 8, 2008, 3:06:00 AM5/8/08
to AdvaitaNow
On May 7, 8:21 pm, Marcus <marcus.hug...@tubelines.com> wrote:
>
> Why can’t God be all forces every where in this moment. Including
> what you think is you.
the other way round.
imo as long as I don't have the universal perspective, as long as I
cannot identify myself with every thing going on, it IS not the other
way round. When will that happen ? Honestly I can say a lot about it,
what's the use ? I am what I am, as you say, ain't it?
I think that answers GZ.
The sun will rise tomorrow any way.
Marcus
May 8, 2008, 6:20:22 AM5/8/08
to AdvaitaNow
.
Anandanand,
An and an and okay I get it now.
You said
“Oh yes God can be any thing including what I think is me. I say, not
the other way round.
Yes, like the seeds of a tree. You can count the seeds in an apple
but who could know how many apples in a seed.
It’s an attempted conceptualisation of spiritual realms. Sincere
apologies for my Ego.
Opinion :
Something encrypted in the human geano whispers a reminder of the vast
singularity. Generally drowned out by the human ego and intellect yet
relentless in it’s whisperings. This sublime remnant of our origin
has driven every human social order throughout history to
conceptualise a spiritual realm.
The examples laid down by the Buddha, Jesus, Mohammed, Moses.
Mandela, Gandhi, Dali lama, Deepak Chopra, etc all attempt to appease
the whispering reminder inside us. To transcend human darkness and
follow the light.
Physically mankind needs his search for God.
Spiritually mankind is already an element of God. As are all apparent
and unapparent things.
In essence
“It not about weather you win or loose it’s what you do with those
dancing shoes.”
Opinions, opinions, opinions as I sail these seven seas.
.
Anandanand,
An and an and okay I get it now.
You said
“Oh yes God can be any thing including what I think is me. I say, not
the other way round.
Yes, like the seeds of a tree. You can count the seeds in an apple
but who could know how many apples in a seed.
It’s an attempted conceptualisation of spiritual realms. Sincere
apologies for my Ego.
Opinion :
Something encrypted in the human geano whispers a reminder of the vast
singularity. Generally drowned out by the human ego and intellect yet
relentless in it’s whisperings. This sublime remnant of our origin
has driven every human social order throughout history to
conceptualise a spiritual realm.
The examples laid down by the Buddha, Jesus, Mohammed, Moses.
Mandela, Gandhi, Dali lama, Deepak Chopra, etc all attempt to appease
the whispering reminder inside us. To transcend human darkness and
follow the light.
Physically mankind needs his search for God.
Spiritually mankind is already an element of God. As are all apparent
and unapparent things.
In essence
“It not about weather you win or loose it’s what you do with those
dancing shoes.”
Opinions, opinions, opinions as I sail these seven seas.
.
Richard
May 8, 2008, 7:29:50 AM5/8/08
to AdvaitaNow
By itself!
"Spring comes and the grass grows by itself."
It's easy, almost effortless. "Effortless effort".
"Nothing whatsoever should be clung to as 'me' or
'mine'."~~Buddhadasa. This includes thoughts of being God or of being
a human. And any other thing in the mental realm.
"Spring comes and the grass grows by itself."
It's easy, almost effortless. "Effortless effort".
"Nothing whatsoever should be clung to as 'me' or
'mine'."~~Buddhadasa. This includes thoughts of being God or of being
a human. And any other thing in the mental realm.
Anandanand
May 8, 2008, 7:40:17 AM5/8/08
to AdvaitaNow
On May 8, 4:29 pm, Richard <richar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On May 8, 3:06 am, Anandanand <hgdin...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
Yes, and put me into 42 deg cent (close to 108 Fahrenheit). Pretty hot
out here.
Nights are a bit cooler.
Anandanand
jaiguru
May 8, 2008, 12:32:36 PM5/8/08
to AdvaitaNow
When one reflects, 'You are everything. There's knothing that's not
You,' 'Even in Your forgetfulness, it is You alone,' then the mind
becomes calm.
Whatever obstacle you confront, blow it up with the cannon of
'Everything is Yours [God's] manifestation!' Whatever situation arises
whether favouable or unfavourable, overcomes it with the mantra:
'Everything is Your manifestation!'
Once there is firm belief with regards disease,sorrow, distress, want,
debt, wealth, happiness and peace that 'You [God] are all these!' the
mind will no longer be agitated.
Rest will be Peace..Peace..Peace.
You,' 'Even in Your forgetfulness, it is You alone,' then the mind
becomes calm.
Whatever obstacle you confront, blow it up with the cannon of
'Everything is Yours [God's] manifestation!' Whatever situation arises
whether favouable or unfavourable, overcomes it with the mantra:
'Everything is Your manifestation!'
Once there is firm belief with regards disease,sorrow, distress, want,
debt, wealth, happiness and peace that 'You [God] are all these!' the
mind will no longer be agitated.
Rest will be Peace..Peace..Peace.
godszen
May 9, 2008, 4:11:34 AM5/9/08
to AdvaitaNow
Anandanand wrote:
> imo as long as I don't have the universal perspective, as long as I
> cannot identify myself with every thing going on, it IS not the other
> way round. When will that happen ? Honestly I can say a lot about it,
> what's the use ? I am what I am, as you say, ain't it?
I admire your honesty (I don't have the universal perspective either)
> imo as long as I don't have the universal perspective, as long as I
> cannot identify myself with every thing going on, it IS not the other
> way round. When will that happen ? Honestly I can say a lot about it,
> what's the use ? I am what I am, as you say, ain't it?
the dissolution of the individual/seperate self is usualy not easy
it takes effort and intuition to understand the mechanics of the
seperate self, and how to gradually dis-assemble the psychological
structure that you've become
Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages