Is there any essential difference between sleeping and waking?

[empty2]

…..or is this just an excuse to clear the decks and start another
thread?
:)

Seriously though, realization being the apperception of the lack of
intrinsic existence of anything that appears here, the absence of the
subject/object duality, ie. emptiness (in terms of that duality).

All such apperception, understandings, concepts and names can only
occur consciously within duality, however.

When all such understanding and experiences - each incurring the
existence of their opposites and involving subject and object (such as
bliss, joy and love) - have no relevance to that which is non-dual……..

……is there any *essential* difference between sleeping and waking?

[Mahakali]

Hi Mp2

I do not see any difference between the waking state and the sleeping
state. The inherent duality or illusion in carried from the waking
state into the dreaming state where there is both a subject and an
object.

Only the state of deep sleep can be considered to be the only state
revealing the Self. Another instance can be the moment I wake up but
my thoughts have not taken over yet. In that moment, there can be some
sense of understanding the unique sense of existence which unites the
whole of humanity.

Kali

[Rodger]

"All such apperception,understandings,concepts and names can only

occur consciously within duality,however".

I think I would've dropped the last three words.
I mean,doesn't duality occur within(and as)consciousness?

The essential difference between sleeping and waking?
Seems to me that,by now,you should know. :)
If you've been one you've been the other.

[Rodger]

"Only the state of deep sleep can be considered to be the only state
revealing the Self".

Kali, only when you're awake do you realize you've been asleep.

[empty2]

Hi Rodger,

>doesn't duality occur within(and as)consciousness?

Well, this brings up the question of whether there is in fact anything
called consciousness without duality. ie.consciousness itself is dual
in the very idea of being conscious *of* something. If not, what is
consciousness? No words apply, and we are back to the point I was
making....

....which is that here we go round and round, sleep/wake up, sleep/
wake up almost in equal proportions in life..... yet it seems we only
give importance to the waking state with its 'I' and all the
experience of body and mind (including bliss etc), while the
'stateless state' of deep sleep is defined as the 'I' sleeping.......
temporarily, as it were...... as if 'I' represents some ever-abiding
reality, and sleep is some kind of aberration whereby it happens to go
missing for a while.

As I understand it, Advaita proposes the opposite....... that I/
consciousness is in fact a kind of sleeping, and most definitely a
temporary state of affairs...... having nothing more than an
'appearance' of continuity and no permanent basis whatsoever.

This conscious state of 'being' - where does it exist? It is emptiness
alone that allows for the momentary appearance of qualities - the
appearance of 'appearance' indeed - by virtue of having no qualities
at all.

And so........ emptiness never being 'absent' - yet (in terms of
duality) being absence itself - is there any *essential* difference
between sleeping and waking?

[empty2]

Hi Kali,

I agree with you.

'I' arises, god knows how, conscious of unity, no sense of any
absence....... then thought pops up and the world appears...... like a
mirror shattered into infinite reflections of all shapes and sizes in
perpetual movement....... presence with a absence of stillness, yet
based on/centered on stillness....... 'troubled voyage in calm
weather'.

[Rodger]

Hi back E2,

As I've said before,consciousness is what asks the question,'what is
consciousness?'.And doesn't ask that question until or unless awake/
conscious.Without consciousness there is no question of
duality.Consciousness is dual only in idea.The idea of duality arises
in consciousness alone.Or,in consciousness which is alone.Not-two.To
be consciousness of something is not to be conscious of something
else.
We give importance to the waking state because in this state is
everything.What's so interesting about nothing?
As I understand,Advaita proposes no opposites.What can oppose
unicity,not-two,singularity,etc.?What stands outside to stand against?

You just wanted to get another thread started,didn't you?

Do you ever get the feeling that this insanity is not a whole lot
different than the insanity in Advaita-Zen? Maybe a little more
polite. :)

[empty2]

>only when you're awake do you realize you've been asleep.

only when awake do you realize the unity that was/is the absence of
you.

On Jul 11, 4:10 am, Rodger <rodge...@hotmail.com> wrote:

[Rodger]

Only when awake do you real-ize.

[empty2]

Hi Rodger,

It’s early morning over here in Thailand so I’ve only had a couple of
hours of consciousness to get used to, whereas you’ve presumably had a
whole day…

Your definition of consciousness designates it as the ‘supreme’ non-
duality that somehow invents a non-separate idea of ‘I’ to ask ‘what
is consciousness’, thus creating an idea of duality which it is not.

I think we’re on the same page here and I agree that nothing can
oppose unicity…… and yet you say ‘what’s so interesting about
nothing?’ ……to which I would say, ‘what’s so interesting about
something?’ – revolving day after day confronted by forms that never
stop changing, sleep/wake up, sleep/wake up etc…… a momentary play
that itself ends every day, then starts again.

And yet I would agree that to make any distinctions is to play the
game.

And perhaps you are right…… as long as the game is ‘interesting’… why
look anywhere else? Yet what defines ‘interesting’ – other than
consciousness playing with itself? Is it not, as you say, sufficient
unto itself…… as a fleeting appearance or not? But without the
recognition of non-appearance - the understanding that appearance is
the appearance of what is, in fact, not an appearance……… ie. just an
appearance via a temporary body, senses and mind… sleeping/waking,
sleeping waking…… where is the interest in that?

Yes, I just wanted to start another thread :)

And I much prefer this insanity………… I hear quite enough giggling
puerile penis jokes and ‘I’m better than you’ from the kids at school,
for whom the game of I and you is relatively fresh and new. Not to
mention an inner sense of insecurity expressing itself in, again,
puerile racism.

Distinctions, preferences and choices – the name of the game.

Quiet (and polite) companionship is more my style these days.

[Rodger]

E2,
As Kali would say,everyone has their preferencies.I prefer strawberry
ice cream.But,I like ice cream so wouldn't turn down chocolate.
You're a teacher...what do you teach?
You're right,I've had a full day.Enjoy yours.
Goodnight.
Lot's of love!

[Gary]

Waking and sleeping are one. Any student sitting through an organic
chemistry class can tell you this.

A virus is spreading over the Internet. Those infected have been
using the word, 'apperception'. Ehhhhhhhhhh..I'm losing my mind.. oh
right.. That thought was long gone.

[empty2]

Hi Gary.......

'apperception'

well, you know who started that one, as a way to describe a
realization without a 'realizer'

...... or perhaps the realization of the absence of a realizer (by no
realizer)

...... or perhaps a real without an izer thereof

...... izer way it beats saying izer real....

sorry 'bout that..... going a bit dotty too.

:)

Rodger, I teach English as a Second Language.
Goodnight, lots of love, and may your sleep be blissful (tho of course
you may not know about it till you wake up)

:)

[Mahakali]

Rodger wrote:
...

> Kali, only when you're awake do you realize you've been asleep.

Yes.

Have a nice day.

Kali

[Rodger]

Good morning,E2.
Funny thing about last nights sleep...I would tell you about it
but...I mean...there is this point...of no return...which I can't seem
to get past...best described as emptiness I reckon...maybe bliss...

[empty2]

Good morning Rodger,

nice...

and welcome back to the land of yes and no.

And now it's my turn,

so it's goodnight from me and good love to you.

Have a nice day.

[Marcus]

.



Last night while asleep, I was in a dream and I wanted to wake up. A
very lucid dream where I knew it was a dream and I struggled against
my non-responding arms and legs to wake my body. This experience
suggests the mind and body where in different conditions. Lucid
dreams reveal how we compose awareness from many things. The
physical senses are just the beginning of conscious awareness. We
can experience conscious awareness while asleep.

I Like the explanation of consciousness being on many levels.
Sometimes wide awake sometimes half asleep. Sometimes fully alert,
sometimes oblivious.

Each one of us defines their own. Few people totally agree most of
the time.



.

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>
> - Show quoted text -

[Rodger]

Hi Marcus,

"Each one of us defines their own".

Is that the same as,each of us is a definition of that?

[Marcus]

.

“each of us is a definition of that”


interesting ……… compared to


“Each one of us defines their own".

I choose the direction of “own” because it is only the self that can
experience the condition of awake. The approach is from the
realisation that no two people could experience the same, awake.
Awake, like sleep are the unique experience of the self.

If we say there is no absolute awake or asleep condition, we might
then state “each of us is a definition of that”

Yes, in this context both statements imply the same complication.

“Know thy self” is the only resolution.


.

> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[empty2]

On Jul 12, 7:39 pm, Rodger <rodge...@hotmail.com> wrote:

"each of us is a definition of that"

....do you mean a definition of the indefinable?

[Rodger]

Thanks,Marcus.

I mean a definition of that,E2.