What’s wrong with peace ???......
Marcus
History proves we humans although promote peace, actually have no real
intention to sustain it. Why is peace throughout our past, so
impossible to maintain ???
Surly something so attractive would sustainable ????
Is it me ……………………..
Ram
is unbreakable.
empty2
nakedness.
The coverings may be That, but they are coverings, ever-changing,
nonetheless.
Kuber Technologies
What’s wrong with peace ???......
History proves we humans although promote peace,
No not promote peace but what is believed to be peaceful for myself/my family/my community/my religion/my nation.
In the very belief is the divisiveness.
The conflict through history is not between peace and turmoil.....good and evil...
...but inter-alia convictions.
Whether the conviction is about peace, good or holy.
Hiding in the caves of Marjah is an unshakable conviction that peace, goodness, holiness resides on his side.
As strong and all-pervading as the conviction that peace is to be achieved by ramming democracy down the throats of whoever is left after all drones have been used up in carpet bombing.
actually have no real
intention to sustain it.
Divisiveness can only perpetuate and sustain divisiveness.
Why is peace throughout our past, so
impossible to maintain ???
Because convictions which are nothing but embedded thought-structure
can never be static.
Surly something so attractive would sustainable ????
Where is the fun in that?
The intoxication with the display..........lies in contrast.
Rodger
there's something wrong with it.
On Feb 26, 9:57 pm, Kuber Technologies <kubertechnolog...@gmail.com>
wrote:
Richard
Ram, Patrick, and Sandeep....the big guns are back. Therefore I'm too
intimidated to venture an answer to the peace question, even if I had
one.
I thought I knew what it was all about until my recent Haiti
experience. Now I suspect it behooves us to "do good" and "be good",
as we understand those terms, even while knowing the field we are
playing in to be one of the play of Consciousness. A lucid dream-
awakeness if you will.
Gary
suffering.
You see, all is in balance. The seeming insanity, love, hate, birth
and death.
Peace is a mental concept unrelated to what we see in nature.
Last night, I watched "The Devil Came on Horseback". This is a
documentary on the genocide in Darfur five or six years back. Not
only did humans slaughter innocent men, women and children by the
thousands, but all the international organizations, such as the United
Nothings just turned a blind eye. I've heard the family tell stories
of escape from Cambodia that make it hard to sleep at night just
hearing of their experience. I can only say that should I be a higher
being looking down on earth, I just might consider the extinction of
just one species. Peace..
Marcus
Just a cotton picking minute ……….
Why so resolute. Yes diversity and of course mother-nature has her
brutally violent yet perfect condition of peace. But surly human
Peace should be better understood. Firstly on a personnel level.
For the individual to “know” how to create and maintain peace inside
themselves. Only then, as the example to inspire others to likewise
find inner peace. I hope that Eventually and it’s going to take a
few more thousand years. But eventually those human beings
“knowing” inner peace will become the majority. Lets hope.
Is peace really a sustainable solutions to the problem of human social
order. Clearly collective peace will always fail because of our
ingrained human psychology. Which always appears to ensure elements
of profound corruption. It’s always there.
When the Buddha, Jesus, Mohammed (to name but a few) teach, spoke of
the overall direction of mankind. Was it ever suggested that peace
could rule throughout the lands ??? They use the analogies of other
places, like heaven, or Nevada. Like, not here.
I’ am only guessing but I don’t think so. Spiritual masters seem to
conclude that human diversity dictates that world-peace can never
actually happen. Yet we should behave is if it is a possibility.
Is this saying, that the truth is, corruption is in fact just as
humanly natural as peace ????
Or is this like trying to mix oil and water.
Is there a peaceful corruption ???
.
> > Is it me ……………………..- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Ram
in the midst of chaos.
Peace is not created inside oneself by oneself, but it can be
discovered. The lack of peace is the symptom of a restless mind.
Hope is an addiction the idea that something is off, and a town in
Arkansas.
Human peace better understood? When the human bean acts consciously in
surrender and in service to the Self, the world is without an enemy.
Peace.
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Dan
Setting what is wanted against what isn't wanted.
Or, you could say, wanting to believe that it is possible to set what
is wanted against what isn't wanted.
Turns out, it's not possible.
So it goes,
- Dan -
Richard
On Mar 1, 12:51 pm, Ram <ram.samar...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Human peace better understood? When the human bean acts consciously in
> surrender and in service to the Self, the world is without an enemy.
The human been Is the Self as appearance. There is only the Whole. Who
is there to surrender, who is there to surrender to? There is only the
One. Advaita.
Experiences of peace, restlessness, hostility, calmness, bliss, dog
crap, these experiences are all the same, all the One.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying dream characters should not act out
of compassion in the dream. Rather, "See the dream as a dream" as
Nisargadatta said.
Ram
There is no one to surrender to, only things, desires, preferences,
etc. as "mine" that are surrendered. Especially among these are "my
opinion," "my understanding," "I'm doing." It is not difficult to see
that the puny jiva is not the omnipotent power in the universe.
Sorry I don't speak theoritical. If you want to experience eating
dogshit, that's fine, I'll go with the tasty morsels, or nothing,
myself. Try it and then tell me that the experience is the same.
Interesting to see the concepts and jargon du jour.
I don't know who you've been reading this week, but if they're telling
you that peace and hositlity are the same experience you might benefit
from some sharper discernment
Peace and dogshit.
Richard
Good humor in your post Ram.
But....you were not talking about surrendering our stuff but rather
surrendering to and serving: "When the human bean acts consciously in
surrender and in service to the Self, the world is without an enemy",
you wrote. Now, it seems, you change your story.
If I'm not mistaken your lineage might be called Vasisthadvaitin,
which is half way between pure Advaita and pure Dvaita. This
hybridization produces the paradox of worshipping nondualists or
bhakti-jnanis. If I am mistaken, please let me know. I am always
willing to learn.
Experiences, whatever they are, come and go, are in time, are
reflections of the One, Which is beyond time and unmoving. In this
they are all the same, just as a dream of being chased by a lion and a
dream of making love are both dream stuff. I'm not saying hostility
and peace are the same experience. I'm saying all experience is the
same Whole.
You want me to surrender my understanding and my intellect? These are
God-given and God. If He didn't want to have understanding He would
have made me a rock. :-)
Hope all is well with you,
Richard
Rodger
As you said,experiences are reflections.
But,in time?
And,what are reflections if not images?
And,what are images if not the manifest likeness of one,in one,as one?
Where is this unmoving One,beyond time...and beyond its reflection?
Does the emerging reflection result in any division(separation)in what
reflects?
If surrender is what it's about,then maybe it's about surrendering
intellectual understanding as the ultimate understanding?
Ram
Yes, aren't contradictions wonderful. When the distinctions between
jiva and Shiva are gone, where is the arising of two? When the
intellect is fixed in Reality, where is there scope for "I" or "mine"?
I am false and God is true, and God and devotee are one. Who
understands this? "I am That" is the meaning of surrender. Everything
said is mere conceptual candy. Some get the meaning and taste the
sweetness and others merely look at it and play with it, missing the
enjoyment of tasting sweetness.
"A measuring container measures lots of grains, but does not consume
any of what has been measured. Similar is the case of the living being
who accumulates a great deal of knowledge but does not understand the
meaning. Such a person can prattle on reciting many things, but when
asked about the meaning, he doesn’t know. When asked about his
experience, he falls into talk based upon speculation and
imagination." - A fitting quote from Samartha Ramdas
I really don't understand the fascination with labels about non-
duality, but because of the fascination with them, I looked up the
particular label you reference and the answer is no. Such fascination
with labels and divisions is best left to scholars and pundits who are
identified with the intellect and actions of the body in Illusion.
Please don't take offense, you say that you want to learn, but you are
still playing with the conceptual tinker toys that you were playing
with when I came to this group. If you want to learn, learn to put
away all of the unnecessary concepts that aren't doing you any good.
Only Brahman exists. True devotion is to That. I am That. Jnana is
Bhakti.
Yes, dream stuff is dream stuff. Because of the belief that dream
stuff is real, expedient teachings in the form of pointers are given
as needed. Some heed the pointers and step out of the dream and others
simply accumulate more concepts in the dream.
The "whole" is a whole lot of nothing, and the natural state is a
state (as long as its labeled as such). So be nothing and stateless,
and then see if questions about gradations of non-duality arise.
As long as there is any feeling of my intellect or my understanding,
the essence is indeed god, but the substance is not god-like at all.
In some cases a rock is superior to man. One who listens but does not
see the meaning, is not really a listener, but is a stone, disguised
as a human being.
If a stone is broken somehow and then is chiseled out to be made
proper, it will remain in its proper condition thereafter.
When a slice is cut off of the stone with a chisel it cannot be
reattached again afterwards. However, if a person rids oneself of
incorrect thinking, that way of thinking can come back again. Negative
qualities may be discarded by way of explanation if they are pointed
out, but afterwards they return. In this way, a stone is much better
than a man.
One whose negative attributes cannot be shed is inferior to the stone.
A stone is thousands of times superior to such a person.
How can a stone be thousands of times superior to a person?
There are many jewels such as rubies, pearls, corals, emeralds,
sapphire, turquoise, topaz, and others such stones.
Looking this way, it can be said that there is nothing more valuable
than stones. Human beings are of little value in comparison to such
stones.
However, the body of the confused non–devotional person is comparable
to a dirty useless stone.
With a restless doubting mind one suffers a loss. With a restless
mind, one neither enjoys the worldly life nor spiritual life.
:O)
All is well. As well as nothing can be.
On Mar 2, 11:16 pm, Richard <richar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Richard
On Mar 3, 9:40 am, Rodger <rodge...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Whatever they are?
Whichever experiences one might have.
> As you said,experiences are reflections.
> But,in time?
Whatever has a begining, an endurance, and a finish, takes time. In
One Whole, nothing can happen, all is unchanging, therefore no space
or time.
> And,what are reflections if not images?
> And,what are images if not the manifest likeness of one,in one,as one?
When Rodger looks in the mirror and sees his shirt is unbuttoned, does
he try to button the shirt that APPEARS in the mirror?
> Where is this unmoving One,beyond time...and beyond its reflection?
Go there and see and then report back to us. IT infiltrates all
manifestation but all manifestation is not IT.
> Does the emerging reflection result in any division(separation)in what
> reflects?
There IS apparent (appearing to be) duality in samsara. Of course.
Isn't there a Rodger asking a Richard a question and being replied
to?
> If surrender is what it's about,then maybe it's about surrendering
> intellectual understanding as the ultimate understanding?
Who's saying surrender is what it's all about? Not I. That was Ram. My
counterpoint was: in nonduality there is no surrender, no surrenderer,
and no surrendered to. And yes, conceptual knowledge of Advaita is not
to be clung to as another philosophy.
I am definitely not a teacher but it's fun responding to your
questions.
Rodger
happen in and as this One Whole you speak of.
With nothing outside this One Whole(or even in it),whatever
happens,even if it's nothing,can only happen as it,this One Whole.
The only surrender is Self-surrender.
Richard
Hi Ram,
You have been very helpful to me in the past. For that I shall always
be grateful.
I think you too are playing with the same concepts you had before you
came to this group. Concepts and projections about me. Maybe I should
have said something earlier but I didn't want to correct someone who
is so advanced in this stuff. I've had experiences galore. You had me
pegged one way and won't deviate from that opinion. If you create
differences in your mind about people you may be off the mark.
All words here by anyone must be conceptual. How else to converse?
This doen't mean when I'm not doing my few minutes on the computer
that I'm knee deep in thinking about concepts. How boring would that
be?
Suffice it to say, I am not who you think I am.
I'm not so fascinated with labels. Just trying to figure why you
talked about the duality of surrendering to and serving the Self and
thought maybe it came from your background. Just conversation, not
fascination.
Here's something else you said , which in my questioning your concept,
rather than believing it blindly, you can again accuse me of playing
with concepts:
You wrote, "Yes, dream stuff is dream stuff. Because of the belief
that dream
stuff is real, expedient teachings in the form of pointers are given
as needed. Some heed the pointers and step out of the dream and
others
simply accumulate more concepts in the dream."
Your "some" and "others" are dream characters, imo. How can a dream
character step out of a dream whether seemingly heeding pointers or
not? A dream character is fictional, mind created. This fictional
character can step wherever he wants and still be fictional. This is
like saying the snake can step out of being a snake upon realizing it
is a rope. Ain't no snake to do nothin' at all.
That "some" do this, "others" do that, is samsaric thinking. There is
only He, only the Nondual. If there is a realization it is by Him, a
Self-realization.
I'm in FL now. Ever get down that way? If so maybe we can get together
for a meal.
As will be written on my tombstone, "no offense meant".
Best,
Richard
Rodger
Mind is fictional,self created.
Rodger
If anything has ever been created it's been by self,of self,as self.
Ram
OK, Thanks.
Marcus
“Self alone is. If anything has ever been created it's been by self,
of self, as self.”
Yes, The Universe and the mustard seed wait for you.
Without you they wait in vain …………..
.
> > Richard- Hide quoted text -
Richard
On Mar 3, 6:58 pm, Rodger <rodge...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Self alone is.
> If anything has ever been created it's been by self,of self,as self.
Yes indeed. Including self dreaming it is the multiplicity of
independent self-reliant entities. When self realizes itself, the
dream is seen by self as only self.
The analogy often given is the lion who mistook himself for a sheep
and acted sheep-like. When he finally saw his reflection he realized
who he was and roared.
Mahakali
peace and happiness can only arise out of an act or an experience of
unhappiness...and not viceversa.
And, if people really knew how bad or cruel their acts might be and
how much suffering they are causing, would they really act that way?
Best wishes
Kali