Push Polls

[Greg Hughes]

A push poll is a campaign stunt masquerading as a legitimate opinion poll.  The unsuspecting participant is asked questions that are very leading and are not meant to measure the support of any candidate but rather to shape opinions. Republican and Democrat campaigns have unfortunately used push polling with varying degrees of success.  I have always been a fierce critic of the practice because it attempts to deceive people and luckily, in most cases, people see right through it.  Lisa Johnson is engaging in push polling in this campaign.  I have had many calls from upset people sharing the details of the "poll."  I have not heard it myself but the accounts are all the same.  "In the race for the State House of Representatives, would you vote for Lisa Johnson who supports more funding for our public schools or Greg Hughes, who supports vouchers and wants to take money away from our public schools?" This is not verbatim but you get the idea. 

First, campaigns that resort to this deceptive practice are doing themselves a disservice.  I have never conducted these pretend polls nor have I allowed any group to come into the district and conduct them on my behalf.  Second, I look forward to the correspondence on this forum as well as in public debates to discuss my record on education funding and other critical issues.
 
For the record, during my last two terms in office we saw an *INCREASE in total education funding by $1.15 billion (45%increase.) *INCREASED state tax funding for education by more than $870 million (48% increase.) *INCREASED per student spending (the value of the Weighted Pupil Unit) by 17%.  *Funded an enrollment increase of approximately 54,800 new students in the public school system (11% increase.)  *Appropriated $30 million in one-time funding for an Optional Extended Day Kindergarten pilot program (4 years.)  *Provided educator salary increases, DIRECT TO TEACHERS, of at least $4,200 per teacher.  *Appropriated $15.8 million to the Beverley Taylor Sorenson Elementary Arts Learning Program (using the arts to teach core curriculum).  *Appropriated $14.1 million to support additional compensation  opportunities for some math, science, and special education teachers.  *Used $60 million in one-time revenue to boost education technology and on-line testing infrastructure in the schools.  *Used more than $33 million in one-time funding to reimburse teachers for out-of-pocket expenditures on instructional supplies and materials. * Appropriated $80 million in one-time funding to support school construction and renovation in the school districts.  *Reserved $100 million in current revenue to address future needs in public education. 

All the while trying to keep pace with our exploding transportation and infrastructure needs. We funded more than $600 million in transportation projects using one-time cash surpluses without issuing debt. 

We didn't spend all the surplus in the boom years realizing that all economies are cyclical.  We returned surplus dollars back to the taxpayers by reducing taxes by nearly $400 million annually including a reduction in income tax (from 7% to 5%) and sales taxes on food (from 4.75% to 1.75%.)  These tax cuts have kept more money in the economy and not exploding budgets to unsustainable levels.  Unlike California which grew with every available surplus dollar, they have not been able to sustain their growth and are now laying off workers, cutting services, and staring at massive potential tax increases.  Our state on the other hand is still enjoying a stronger economy than most and our rainy day and reserve accounts are ready for the economic slowdown.

There are other issues that we continue to grapple with such as health care and energy.  I look forward to the substantive debates and dialogue that come in a campaign season.  What I'm not looking forward to is the less than substantive campaign trickery that too many races get drawn into.  Also, if the traditional debates (PTA, Draper City Hall) are too few and far between I'd be happy to participate in more.  Instead of push polls or negative attacks (btw, I don't consider differing views on votes or policy to be negative attacks) we can spend more resources advertising debates!

Greg

[joan]

I only have a minute before I have to move on to my morning's duties
but I want to state that I am most uncomfortable with this post. It
appears to me to be a personal attack as well as an advertisement for
personal gain neither of which was intended when we set up the site.
As I have time I will review our guidelines and contact the other
moderators for their opinions. The best way to contact me over the
next few hours is my personal email JoanM...@MSN.com which I can
pick up on my blackberry. More later. Joan

[JMSchaerer]

From the Tribune. According to the opinion of an expert on polling,
this instance is not push polling. Read the article.

--Jennifer


Republicans cry foul, say Dems use push polls against them
By Robert Gehrke
The Salt Lake Tribune
Salt Lake Tribune
Article Last Updated:09/11/2008 09:24:38 AM MDT

Posted: 9:24 AM-
Republican candidates in key Utah legislative races say they are
the victims of Democrats' unethical campaign tactics, a charge that
the party's executive director says is untrue.
The targeted GOP members are accusing the Democrats of "push-
polling," a shady campaign tactic where often malicious and inaccurate
information about a candidate is spread anonymously under the guise of
a public opinion survey.
"They're killing me in my district with that push poll," said Rep.
Carl Wimmer, who is seeking re-election to his House seat in
Herriman.
He said he has heard from numerous voters who got the call, which
asks them who they plan to vote for and then asks if they would be
less likely to vote for Wimmer if they knew he doesn't support
children's health insurance.
"It's a barebones slanderous push poll. It's extremely
unethical."
Not true, says Todd Taylor, executive director of the Utah
Democratic Party.
"We absolutely do not have a push poll going on. We do have a
candidate ID question poll going on," he said.
The key difference, according to Taylor, is that the party is
collecting data, trying to identify voters who might be supportive of
the Democratic candidates so they can be targeted for get-out-the-vote
efforts before the Nov. 4 election.
A push poll is not meant to collect any data, just spread a
message against the opponent. That's not the goal, in this case,
Taylor said. The caller asks how involved respondents are in politics,
how they plan to vote, and who they plan to vote for.
The script then offers some information about the candidate - in
Wimmer's case his opposition to expansion of the Children's Health
Insurance Program. Taylor says that's because the person being
contacted often doesn't know about their representatives positions and
the party wants to see if the message might change voters' minds.
Taylor said similar calls are going out all across the state, each
message tailored to specific districts and each message is 100 percent
factual.
In House Speaker Greg Curtis' district, for example, the caller
states that Curtis has opposed ethics reform while his opponent,
Democrat Jay Seegmiller, supports reform. In Rep. Greg Hughes'
district, the caller states that Hughes wants to take money from
public schools, while his opponent, Lisa Johnson, supports public
schools.
"In a push poll you don't care what the answer is, its used simply
to convey a message. We're not trying to convey a message, we're
trying to get an honest feeling for how people are reacting in that
context," said Taylor.
Quin Monson, an expert on polling and assistant director of
Brigham Young University's Center for the Study of Elections and
Democracy, said that people often mistake message-testing polls or
voter ID polls for push polls because of the nature of the questions.
But push polls generally are anonymous, oftentimes are recorded,
aren't meant to gather any information and the message provided is
often false. He said that does not seem to be the case with the
Democratic calls.
"It sounds to me like they're simply trying to identify movable
voters. If you're the Democratic Party in Utah you've got to find some
set of voters that aren't registered Democrats who you can send your
message to and persuade them to vote for your candidate," he said.
"Unless the information is untrue, I think they're on solid ground."
Regardless, Wimmer said he thinks the tactic is distasteful.
"I would never do it," he said. "If I'm going to win the race I
want to know I didn't have to do something that low."

On Sep 11, 8:22 am, joan <JoanMLit...@msn.com> wrote:
> I only have a minute before I have to move on to my morning's duties
> but I want to state that I am most uncomfortable with this post. It
> appears to me to be a personal attack as well as an advertisement for
> personal gain neither of which was intended when we set up the site.
> As I have time I will review our guidelines and contact the other
> moderators for their opinions. The best way to contact me over the

> next few hours is my personal email JoanMLit...@MSN.com which I can

> > Greg- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Scott & Lisa McDonald]

Joan,

With all due respect, I thought getting candidates in here to debate is
something we all wanted. Would you disagree? I wouldn't classify what is
going on here as a personal attack or an advertisement.

I have tried (once via e-mail, once in person) to get Lisa Johnson to post
in ViewPoint for several months now. While she did register, she has been
silent. I (and I believe others) would also like to hear her response to
what Greg has posted. A "candidate identification poll" sure sounds like a
push poll to me.

Scott

[Joan Little]

Scott, with all due respect back, I love candidates discussing issues. I don't like them slinging mud. Phrases like "campaign stunt, attempts to deceive, deceptive practices, substantive campaign trickery" are just a few of the "notes" that made me uncomfortable.
I know that you are a staunch Greg Hughes supporter as you have stated publicly many times and for that reason, this particular post may "read" differently to you.
I suggest you, I, and the other moderators discuss this privately.  

Joan

[Joan Little]

Jennifer thanks for posting this and the TRAX update as well.

Joan

> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 08:52:49 -0700

> Subject: [DraperViewpoint] Re: Push Polls

> From: jennifer...@earthlink.net
> To: 84020vi...@googlegroups.com

[Scott & Lisa McDonald]

Joan,

 

“campaign stunt, attempts to deceive, deceptive practices, substantive campaign trickery”

 

Wouldn’t a “push poll” constitute all of these things?  If that occurred, how would illuminating it be a personal attack?

 

Scott

 

From: 84020vi...@googlegroups.com [mailto:84020vi...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Joan Little
Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 10:30 AM
To: 84020vi...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [DraperViewpoint] Re: Push Polls

 

Scott, with all due respect back, I love candidates discussing issues. I don't like them slinging mud. Phrases like "" are just a few of the "notes" that made me uncomfortable.

> </html

[Joan Little]

According to the expert from BYU who is quoted in the article Jennifer posted, this isn't a push poll. Why not read it?

Joan

---

From: slmcd...@xmission.com
To: 84020vi...@googlegroups.com
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 10:52:21 -0600

[Jenn Free]

I believe the BYU expert stated that unless the statements were

 

From: 84020vi...@googlegroups.com [mailto:84020vi...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Joan Little
Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 11:01 AM
To: 84020vi...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [DraperViewpoint] Re: Push Polls

 

According to the expert from BYU who is quoted in the article Jennifer posted, this isn't a push poll. Why not read it?

I believe that the BYU professor stated that “unless the information being stated is untrue, they are on solid ground.”  From the information Greg shared in his posting – it sounds as if there is a question as to whether the information being used in the poll is true.

Jennefer Free

</html

[DeLaina Tonks]

Part of the determination is whether the information being given is true or false. Greg was able to show evidence that the information was inaccurate, therefore I think it sounds a little deceptive.

 

        DeLaina Tonks

        801.495.9559

---

</html

[Greg Hughes]

To all:
Let's just apply the Golden Rule. If I conducted a "poll" that used the same leap of logic and asked, "do you support Lisa Johnson who wants to raise your taxes?" would any of her supporters argue that such a question in the form of a phone survey is legitimate?
Greg

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

---

From: Joan Little <joanm...@msn.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 11:01:07 -0600

[Lisa Johnson]

“Quin Monson, an expert on polling and assistant director of Brigham Young University's Center for the Study of Elections and Democracy, said that people often mistake message-testing polls or voter ID polls for push polls because of the nature of the questions.
    But push polls generally are anonymous, oftentimes are recorded, aren't meant to gather any information and the message provided is often false. He said that does not seem to be the case with the Democratic calls.”  --From today’s Salt Lake Tribune

 

I’ve looked into the details of the calls, and this is what I’ve found out.  The first thing that the callers said was that they were calling on behalf of the Democratic Party.  The caller ID clearly showed the number for the Utah State Democratic Party.

 

I checked with the party and got the actual wording of the question.  It asked the responders if they would vote for “Republican Greg Hughes, who supports funding things like private school vouchers while Utah’s public schools are the most underfunded in the Nation.”

 

Greg has been very vocal about his support of private school vouchers, not only by voting for the measure, but also by forming a Political Issues Committee with a budget of $300,000 to defend it and by participating in many advocacy meetings and debates on the subject.  To my knowledge, he has never changed his position on that issue. 

 

After voters rejected vouchers last November (statewide, in every county, and in Greg’s own House district), Greg said that he didn’t think the issue would be very relevant to his re-election bid.  He told the Salt Lake Tribune in March that the voucher issue “is not going to have much impact except for the zealots.”  I’m sure he hopes that’s the case, but there are likely to be voters who are still bothered by the fact that Greg fought for a proposal they did not want.  This sort of ID question is designed to find out who those voters might be.

 

I’m happy to participate in many public debates for this race, and have been talking with several organizations about those plans, including the Draper Youth Council (thanks for posting the notice, DeLaina), the Draper Chamber of Commerce, and the PTA.  If you know a group that is interested in sponsoring a public debate, please let me know.  I look forward to discussing all the issues that are important to Draper and Sandy residents.

 

By the way, the Deseret News just posted a full script of the calls, which you can read here:  http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700258019,00.html.

 

Lisa

 

---

From: 84020vi...@googlegroups.com [mailto:84020vi...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of DeLaina Tonks
Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 11:16 AM

[joan]

Greg suggested application of the Golden Rule.
Here's a recap of it.
The ethic of reciprocity or the Golden Rule is a fundamental moral
value which simply means "treat others as you would like to be
treated." It is arguably the most essential basis for the modern
concept of human rights[original research?], though it is not without
its critics.

Ethical teaching interprets the Golden Rule as mutual respect for
one's neighbour (rather than as a deontological or consequentialist
rule). A key element of the golden rule is that a person attempting to
live by this rule treats all people, not just members of his or her in-
group with consideration. The golden rule, with roots in a wide range
of world cultures, is well suited to be a standard to which different
cultures could appeal in resolving conflicts.[original research?]

It would appear (but I cannot confirm) that Greg received
misinformation, created more misinformation (push poll and the other
perjorative characterizations), and attempted to place blame on Lisa
Johnson, who by her statement was not the party conducting the poll.
It does appear that Greg made quite a leap and it wasn't very golden.

On Sep 11, 11:29 am, "Greg Hughes" <greghhug...@gmail.com> wrote:
> To all:
> Let's just apply the Golden Rule. If I conducted a "poll" that used the same leap of logic and asked, "do you support Lisa Johnson who wants to raise your taxes?" would any of her supporters argue that such a question in the form of a phone survey is legitimate?
> Greg
> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joan Little <joanmlit...@msn.com>
>
> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 11:01:07

> To: <84020vi...@googlegroups.com>
> Subject: [DraperViewpoint] Re: Push Polls
>
> According to the expert from BYU who is quoted in the article Jennifer posted, this isn't a push poll. Why not read it?Joan
>

> From: slmcdon...@xmission.comTo: 84020viewpo...@googlegroups.comDate: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 10:52:21 -0600Subject: [DraperViewpoint] Re: Push Polls
>
> Joan,
>
> “campaign stunt, attempts to deceive, deceptive practices, substantive campaign trickery”
>
> Wouldn’t a “push poll” constitute all of these things?  If that occurred, how would illuminating it be a personal attack?
>
> Scott
>

> From: 84020vi...@googlegroups.com [mailto:84020vi...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Joan LittleSent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 10:30 AMTo: 84020viewpo...@googlegroups.comSubject: [DraperViewpoint] Re: Push Polls
>
> Scott, with all due respect back, I love candidates discussing issues. I don't like them slinging mud. Phrases like "" are just a few of the "notes" that made me uncomfortable.I know that you are a staunch Greg Hughes supporter as you have stated publicly many times and for that reason, this particular post may "read" differently to you.I suggest you, I, and the other moderators discuss this privately.  Joan > From: slmcdon...@xmission.com> To: 84020vi...@googlegroups.com> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 10:13:12 -0600> Subject: [DraperViewpoint] Re: Push Polls> > > Joan,> > With all due respect, I thought getting candidates in here to debate is> something we all wanted. Would you disagree? I wouldn't classify what is> going on here as a personal attack or an advertisement.> > I have tried (once via e-mail, once in person) to get Lisa Johnson to post> in ViewPoint for several months now. While she did register, she has been> silent. I (and I believe others) would also like to hear her response to> what Greg has posted. A "candidate identification poll" sure sounds like a> push poll to me.> > Scott> > -----Original Message-----> From: 84020vi...@googlegroups.com> [mailto:84020vi...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of joan> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 8:22 AM> To: 84020Viewpoint> Subject: [DraperViewpoint] Re: Push Polls> > > I only have a minute before I have to move on to my morning's duties> but I want to state that I am most uncomfortable with this post. It> appears to me to be a personal attack as well as an advertisement for> personal gain neither of which was intended when we set up the site.> As I have time I will review our guidelines and contact the other> moderators for their opinions. The best way to contact me over the> next few hours is my personal email JoanMLit...@MSN.com which I can> pick up on my blackberry. More later. Joan> > On Sep 11, 2:31 am, "Greg Hughes" <greghhug...@gmail.com> wrote:> > A push poll is a campaign stunt masquerading as a legitimate opinion poll.> > The unsuspecting participant is asked questions that are very leading and> > are not meant to measure the support of any candidate but rather to shape> > opinions. Republican and Democrat campaigns have unfortunately used push> > polling with varying degrees of success.  I have always been a fierce> critic> > of the practice because it attempts to deceive people and luckily, in most> > cases, people see right through it.  Lisa Johnson is engaging in push> > polling in this campaign.  I have had many calls from upset people sharing> > the details of the "poll."  I have not heard it myself but the accounts> are> > all the same.  "In the race for the State House of Representatives, would> > you vote for Lisa Johnson who supports more funding for our public schools> > or Greg Hughes, who supports vouchers and wants to take money away from> our> > public schools?" This is not verbatim but you get the idea.> >> > First, campaigns that resort to this deceptive practice are doing> themselves> > a disservice.  I have never conducted these pretend polls nor have I> allowed> > any group to come into the district and conduct them on my behalf.>  Second,> > I look forward to the correspondence on this forum as well as in public> > debates to discuss my record on education funding and other critical> issues.> >> > For the record, during my last two terms in office we saw an *INCREASE in> > total education funding by $1.15 billion (45%increase.) *INCREASED state> tax> > funding for education by more than $870 million (48% increase.) *INCREASED> > per student spending (the value of the Weighted Pupil Unit) by 17%.>  *Funded> > an enrollment increase of approximately 54,800 new students in the public> > school system (11% increase.)  *Appropriated $30 million in one-time> funding> > for an Optional Extended Day Kindergarten pilot program (4 years.)> > *Provided educator salary increases, DIRECT TO TEACHERS, of at least> $4,200> > per teacher.  *Appropriated $15.8 million to the Beverley Taylor Sorenson> > Elementary Arts Learning Program (using the arts to teach core> curriculum).> > *Appropriated $14.1 million to support additional compensation> > opportunities for some math, science, and special education teachers.>  *Used> > $60 million in one-time revenue to boost education technology and on-line> > testing infrastructure in the schools.  *Used more than $33 million in> > one-time funding to reimburse teachers for out-of-pocket expenditures on> > instructional supplies and materials. * Appropriated $80 million in> one-time> > funding to support school construction and renovation in the school> > districts.  *Reserved $100 million in current revenue to address future> > needs in public education.> >> > All the while trying to keep pace with our exploding transportation and> > infrastructure needs. We funded more than $600 million in transportation> > projects using one-time cash surpluses without issuing debt.> >> > We didn't spend all the surplus in the boom years realizing that all> > economies are cyclical.  We returned surplus dollars back to the taxpayers> > by reducing taxes by nearly $400 million annually including a reduction in> > income tax (from 7% to 5%) and sales taxes on food (from 4.75% to 1.75%.)> > These tax cuts have kept more money in the economy and not exploding> budgets> > to unsustainable levels.  Unlike California which grew with every> available> > surplus dollar, they have not been able to sustain their growth and are> now> > laying off workers, cutting services, and staring at massive potential tax> > increases.  Our state on the other hand is still enjoying a stronger> economy> > than most and our rainy day and reserve accounts are ready for the> economic> > slowdown.> >> > There are other issues that we continue to grapple with such as health> care> > and energy.  I look forward to the substantive debates and dialogue that> > come in a campaign season.  What I'm not looking forward to is the less> than> > substantive campaign trickery that too many races get drawn into.  Also,> if> > the traditional debates (PTA, Draper City Hall) are too few and far> between> > I'd be happy to participate in more.  Instead of push polls or negative> > attacks (btw, I don't consider differing views on votes or policy to be> > negative attacks) we can spend more resources advertising debates!> >> > Greg> > > > > </html- Hide quoted text -

[Greg Hughes]

Joan,
Let's not muddy the water and call it deep. I'll put it another way. Would you support any efforts on my part to conduct the same type of campaign calls? I don't buy the "don't blame me, they did it" argument either. The buck stops with me when it comes to my campaign.

Greg
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----

From: joan <JoanM...@msn.com>

Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 12:36:07
To: 84020Viewpoint<84020vi...@googlegroups.com>

[Tom]

Greg
By definition and the by the exact wording used the calls were not
push polling. I'm suprised that as an informed legislator you did not
check as to the exact statements used in the calls before posting an
inaccurate version of the events. Whether you intended it or not your
post was more along the lines of misinformation than the alledged
events you were criticizing.
Your statement, "In the race for the State House of Representatives,

would
you vote for Lisa Johnson who supports more funding for our public
schools
or Greg Hughes, who supports vouchers and wants to take money away
from our

public schools?" What was actually the question, "Republican Greg

Hughes, who
supports funding things like private school vouchers while Utah's
public
schools are the most underfunded in the Nation."

Now suppose this same license was taken with your words. "Appropriated

$14.1 million to support additional compensation

opportunities for some math, and science teachers taking compensation
away from other teachers.

In answer to your question to Joan in regard to your conduct, I think
most would support accurate statements made by the candidates, and not
slanted with misinformation.

Tom

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Greg Hughes]

Tom,

I'm sure that you read this part of my original post, "I have not heard it myself but the accounts are all the same...." I stand by that statement and would ask if you personally received the call in question? If you are not speaking from first hand knowledge then you are in the same boat I am in.
Here's my accurate statement that I'm going to run by you and the rest of the group:
In 2006 Lisa Johnson opposed cutting any taxes as stated in her "Tax Cuts or Text Books" flier. Rep. Hughes argued that we needed to do both and in fact DID cut taxes AND delivered record funding increases to public education with the votes of every democrat in the House. Lisa Johnson was either wrong in her position or she is firmly to the left of every democrat in the State House. Rep. Greg Hughes promised and delivered. Lisa Johnson was wrong then, what makes her right now?

I can back that statement up with her flier and the votes made in the legislature after the election. Should I run with it?

Greg
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----

From: Tom <maxage...@yahoo.com>

Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 14:31:01

[Greg Hughes]

While I'm at it, I posted this on Draper Resident but I think it's worth repeating:
Lisa,

I want to ask you this question publicly because your answer may shape the tone of this campaign. Would you be comfortable with me conducting the same "poll"? As I said I did not receive the call but not one person that contacted me repeated back the question you said was asked. I'd be interested in hearing from more recipients of the calls. Maybe I can be talked out of my opposition to these kind of tactics.

Also, vouchers, which was one bill within the realm of public education and among many other critical issues we work on all year long was defeated by 53% of the voters in our district. Your candidacy two years ago was rejected by 60% of the voters. Are you then not listening to the people? I would argue that you have every right to run and that the results from that election did not disqualify you from seeking to represent the people of our district. I think those that would attempt to look at the role of a state legislator in a myopic view, only considering the voucher issue, is misguided and problematic. That's why I'm looking forward to a true examination and debate of all the issues that confront us here in district 51 and in Utah as a whole.

Greg
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----

From: Tom <maxage...@yahoo.com>

Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 14:31:01

[Brad Wilson]

Greg Hughes has voted in favor of public education bills only 33% of the time, voting against HB 194, 278, 280, 475, SB 2, 35, all of which were supported by education professionals. The funding increases did nothing to move Utah out of LAST PLACE in per-pupil funding. Lots of kids means lots of money - the legislature didn't do anything stellar when they just kept school kids afloat, despite Hughes' pats on his own back. Some of the education funding is for meaningless, non-research based ideas, like the paltry increase for those with math/science degrees. Every public educator knows that Hughes is no friend to traditional public education.

Hughes led the fight for vouchers, another meaningless, non-research based program that would have drained our meager public resources even further, giving money to those middle-class families who want the "prestige" of private education but not the responsibility to trim their own family budgets to pay for it. I received the phone questionnaire and it was accurate. It stated that Lisa Johnson supports public schools and Hughes supports vouchers. My husband says this is the exact kind of poll questions he used to write when working for the Republican National Conference in DC. It is the same kind of questionnaire my family used in their US Senate and US Congressional bids.

Please stop "muddying the waters" of this forum with the continued whining about the phone calls and underhanded digs at Lisa. After all that Hughes has said and done over the years, it's laughable that he is the one crying "no fair!" Lisa acts and speaks with integrity and treats others with respect. She runs her campaign the same way.




Jennifer Wilson

----------------------------------------

> To: 84020vi...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [DraperViewpoint] Re: Push Polls

> From: gregh...@gmail.com
> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 22:28:30 +0000

>
> Tom,
>
> I'm sure that you read this part of my original post, "I have not heard it myself but the accounts are all the same...." I stand by that statement and would ask if you personally received the call in question? If you are not speaking from first hand knowledge then you are in the same boat I am in.
> Here's my accurate statement that I'm going to run by you and the rest of the group:
> In 2006 Lisa Johnson opposed cutting any taxes as stated in her "Tax Cuts or Text Books" flier. Rep. Hughes argued that we needed to do both and in fact DID cut taxes AND delivered record funding increases to public education with the votes of every democrat in the House. Lisa Johnson was either wrong in her position or she is firmly to the left of every democrat in the State House. Rep. Greg Hughes promised and delivered. Lisa Johnson was wrong then, what makes her right now?
>
> I can back that statement up with her flier and the votes made in the legislature after the election. Should I run with it?
>
> Greg
> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tom
>

> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 14:31:01
> To: 84020Viewpoint

>> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 12:36:07
>> To: 84020Viewpoint

>> Subject: [DraperViewpoint] Re: Push Polls
>>
>> Greg suggested application of the Golden Rule.
>> Here's a recap of it.
>> The ethic of reciprocity or the Golden Rule is a fundamental moral
>> value which simply means "treat others as you would like to be
>> treated." It is arguably the most essential basis for the modern
>> concept of human rights[original research?], though it is not without
>> its critics.
>>
>> Ethical teaching interprets the Golden Rule as mutual respect for
>> one's neighbour (rather than as a deontological or consequentialist
>> rule). A key element of the golden rule is that a person attempting to
>> live by this rule treats all people, not just members of his or her in-
>> group with consideration. The golden rule, with roots in a wide range
>> of world cultures, is well suited to be a standard to which different
>> cultures could appeal in resolving conflicts.[original research?]
>>
>> It would appear (but I cannot confirm) that Greg received
>> misinformation, created more misinformation (push poll and the other
>> perjorative characterizations), and attempted to place blame on Lisa
>> Johnson, who by her statement was not the party conducting the poll.
>> It does appear that Greg made quite a leap and it wasn't very golden.
>>

>> On Sep 11, 11:29 am, "Greg Hughes" wrote:
>>> To all:
>>> Let's just apply the Golden Rule. If I conducted a "poll" that used the same leap of logic and asked, "do you support Lisa Johnson who wants to raise your taxes?" would any of her supporters argue that such a question in the form of a phone survey is legitimate?
>>> Greg
>>> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Joan Little
>>

>>> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 11:01:07
>>> To:

>>> Subject: [DraperViewpoint] Re: Push Polls
>>
>>> According to the expert from BYU who is quoted in the article Jennifer posted, this isn't a push poll. Why not read it?Joan
>>
>>> From: slmcdon...@xmission.comTo: 84020viewpo...@googlegroups.comDate: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 10:52:21 -0600Subject: [DraperViewpoint] Re: Push Polls
>>
>>> Joan,
>>
>>> “campaign stunt, attempts to deceive, deceptive practices, substantive campaign trickery”
>>
>>> Wouldn’t a “push poll” constitute all of these things? If that occurred, how would illuminating it be a personal attack?
>>
>>> Scott
>>
>>> From: 84020vi...@googlegroups.com [mailto:84020vi...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Joan LittleSent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 10:30 AMTo: 84020viewpo...@googlegroups.comSubject: [DraperViewpoint] Re: Push Polls
>>

>>> Scott, with all due respect back, I love candidates discussing issues. I don't like them slinging mud. Phrases like "" are just a few of the "notes" that made me uncomfortable.I know that you are a staunch Greg Hughes supporter as you have stated publicly many times and for that reason, this particular post may "read" differently to you.I suggest you, I, and the other moderators discuss this privately. Joan> From: slmcdon...@xmission.com> To: 84020vi...@googlegroups.com> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 10:13:12 -0600> Subject: [DraperViewpoint] Re: Push Polls>>> Joan,>> With all due respect, I thought getting candidates in here to debate is> something we all wanted. Would you disagree? I wouldn't classify what is> going on here as a personal attack or an advertisement.>> I have tried (once via e-mail, once in person) to get Lisa Johnson to post> in ViewPoint for several months now. While she did register, she has been> silent. I (and I believe others) would also like to hear her response to> what Greg has posted. A "candidate identification poll" sure sounds like a> push poll to me.>> Scott>> -----Original Message-----> From: 84020vi...@googlegroups.com> [mailto:84020vi...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of joan> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 8:22 AM> To: 84020Viewpoint> Subject: [DraperViewpoint] Re: Push Polls>>> I only have a minute before I have to move on to my morning's duties> but I want to state that I am most uncomfortable with this post. It> appears to me to be a personal attack as well as an advertisement for> personal gain neither of which was intended when we set up the site.> As I have time I will review our guidelines and contact the other> moderators for their opinions. The best way to contact me over the> next few hours is my personal email JoanMLit...@MSN.com which I can> pick up on my blackberry. More later. Joan>> On Sep 11, 2:31 am, "Greg Hughes" wrote:>> A push poll is a campaign stunt masquerading as a legitimate opinion poll.>> The unsuspecting participant is asked questions that are very leading and>> are not meant to measure the support of any candidate but rather to shape>> opinions. Republican and Democrat campaigns have unfortunately used push>> polling with varying degrees of success. I have always been a fierce> critic>> of the practice because it attempts to deceive people and luckily, in most>> cases, people see right through it. Lisa Johnson is engaging in push>> polling in this campaign. I have had many calls from upset people sharing>> the details of the "poll." I have not heard it myself but the accounts> are>> all the same. "In the race for the State House of Representatives, would>> you vote for Lisa Johnson who supports more funding for our public schools>> or Greg Hughes, who supports vouchers and wants to take money away from> our>> public schools?" This is not verbatim but you get the idea.>>>> First, campaigns that resort to this deceptive practice are doing> themselves>> a disservice. I have never conducted these pretend polls nor have I> allowed>> any group to come into the district and conduct them on my behalf.> Second,>> I look forward to the correspondence on this forum as well as in public>> debates to discuss my record on education funding and other critical> issues.>>>> For the record, during my last two terms in office we saw an *INCREASE in>> total education funding by $1.15 billion (45%increase.) *INCREASED state> tax>> funding for education by more than $870 million (48% increase.) *INCREASED>> per student spending (the value of the Weighted Pupil Unit) by 17%.> *Funded>> an enrollment increase of approximately 54,800 new students in the public>> school system (11% increase.) *Appropriated $30 million in one-time> funding>> for an Optional Extended Day Kindergarten pilot program (4 years.)>> *Provided educator salary increases, DIRECT TO TEACHERS, of at least> $4,200>> per teacher. *Appropriated $15.8 million to the Beverley Taylor Sorenson>> Elementary Arts Learning Program (using the arts to teach core> curriculum).>> *Appropriated $14.1 million to support additional compensation>> opportunities for some math, science, and special education teachers.> *Used>> $60 million in one-time revenue to boost education technology and on-line>> testing infrastructure in the schools. *Used more than $33 million in>> one-time funding to reimburse teachers for out-of-pocket expenditures on>> instructional supplies and materials. * Appropriated $80 million in> one-time>> funding to support school construction and renovation in the school>> districts. *Reserved $100 million in current revenue to address future>> needs in public education.>>>> All the while trying to keep pace with our exploding transportation and>> infrastructure needs. We funded more than $600 million in transportation>> projects using one-time cash surpluses without issuing debt.>>>> We didn't spend all the surplus in the boom years realizing that all>> economies are cyclical. We returned surplus dollars back to the taxpayers>> by reducing taxes by nearly $400 million annually including a reduction in>> income tax (from 7% to 5%) and sales taxes on food (from 4.75% to 1.75%.)>> These tax cuts have kept more money in the economy and not exploding> budgets>> to unsustainable levels. Unlike California which grew with every> available>> surplus dollar, they have not been able to sustain their growth and are> now>> laying off workers, cutting services, and staring at massive potential tax>> increases. Our state on the other hand is still enjoying a stronger> economy>> than most and our rainy day and reserve accounts are ready for the> economic>> slowdown.>>>> There are other issues that we continue to grapple with such as health> care>> and energy. I look forward to the substantive debates and dialogue that>> come in a campaign season. What I'm not looking forward to is the less> than>> substantive campaign trickery that too many races get drawn into. Also,> if>> the traditional debates (PTA, Draper City Hall) are too few and far> between>> I'd be happy to participate in more. Instead of push polls or negative>> attacks (btw, I don't consider differing views on votes or policy to be>> negative attacks) we can spend more resources advertising debates!>>>> Greg>>>>> >

>>> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>
> >

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[Scott & Lisa McDonald]

Lisa,

 

Push polls are manipulative and condescending to voters. 

 

Do you genuinely believe that the question:   “ [can you vote for] Republican Greg Hughes, who supports funding things like private school vouchers while Utah’s public schools are the most underfunded in the Nation.” is not a push poll question --that is, designed to develop an opinion rather than measure it? 

 

If you can honestly answer “no”, then I question your judgment.  If you answer “yes”, then you should publicly denounce the actions of your party. 

 

Which will it be?

 

Scott

<BR

[Greg Hughes]

Jennifer,

Your 33% score from education professionals is a teachers union report card. You didn't list the bad grade that the unions gave me for supporting direct pay increases to teachers.

I don't represent unions. I represent teachers, parents, taxpayers, etc.

Pointing out that the Republicans have used push polls is not news to me. I mentioned that in my original post. It's the low bar politics that too many campaigns practice.

Greg
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----

From: Brad Wilson <bkwil...@msn.com>

Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 17:40:15

[Brad Wilson]

The UEA represents professional educators who know what works in schools and who care enough about children's education to actually have a career serving them. I know the conservative caucus wants to paint the hard-working, underpaid teachers, who comprise the UEA, as the bad guys, but it's just not so. If we didn't have legislators like you who divert money away from our children, we wouldn't need a UEA. UEA and educators value meaningful, research-based educational reform to bring the best quality education to ALL Utah school children. You do not represent teachers in traditional public schools, nor do you represent parents who want our children to have fully-funded public education like children in the rest of America receive. You represent special interests.

Are you obsessed with the phone call to divert attention away from your record? Phone calls are the least corrupt/intrusive thing in politics - lying to constituents, name-calling, unwilling to compromise with the other side, arrogance...now those are "low-bar."


Brad and Jennifer Wilson

----------------------------------------
> To: 84020vi...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [DraperViewpoint] Re: Push Polls
> From: gregh...@gmail.com

> Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 01:11:36 +0000

>
> Jennifer,
>
> Your 33% score from education professionals is a teachers union report card. You didn't list the bad grade that the unions gave me for supporting direct pay increases to teachers.
>
> I don't represent unions. I represent teachers, parents, taxpayers, etc.
>
> Pointing out that the Republicans have used push polls is not news to me. I mentioned that in my original post. It's the low bar politics that too many campaigns practice.
>
> Greg
> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brad Wilson
>

> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 17:40:15
> To:

_________________________________________________________________
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[Greg Hughes]

1) Your union is no different than any other union. Their purpose is to promote and protect its membership. There is nothing wrong with that. What I take exception to is that other unions make no apologies about their purpose and goals. You and others put your union on some higher ground and claim it is somehow altruistic and only for the children. The fact that your union opposed teacher salary increases of $4,200 in the last 2 years exposes their real motives. Why would a union oppose a direct pay increase for their members? Because they were not in control and they feared that it would weaken their power to enter into collective bargaining. That has nothing to do with teachers and everything to do with a union wanting to protect its turf and have more power. And before you claim that the collective bargaining would somehow yield greater pay, ask your colleagues if they've ever seen wide spread pay increases like they have the last 2 years. I spent the morning at Cresent Middle School and Alta High School today and heard first hand that the pay increases have been greatly appreciated. It always strikes me when I visit schools and spend time with our teachers. They are great people who love our kids and their jobs. What I have seldom ever really encountered is the angry rhetoric that I get from union reps and from all of your posts. You may not like it but I do represent teachers, parents, and taxpayers. Not unions.

2) Legislators like me that divert funds away from public education? What programs would you cut or what taxes would you raise to better fund public education? When $1.15 billion new dollars which increased the education funding by 45% only brings scorn and outrage it exposes the funding argument as a no win prospect. I would actually like you to make the inadequate funding argument in the same room as state employees from other areas of government. National Guard, Corrections, Workforce Services, Higher Education, Dept. of Commerce, etc. They would love to have it as "bad" as public education. I'm not saying that increased funding is not needed but increases have to be sustained during slow economic times and there are other functions in State Government that require our attention and resources.

3)Divert attention away from my record? I thought I posted a lengthy list of legislative achievements from the record. Do you want more? Give me a specific area of interest and I'll report! From that record you will find that I have been the House sponsor for Democrat Senate bills and co-sponsored bills with my House democrat colleagues. I compromise and reach across the aisle every time good policy requires it.

This thread began with push polls. I have my own opinion about who is diverting attention away from an issue that is difficult to defend.

Greg
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----

From: Brad Wilson <bkwil...@msn.com>

Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 21:37:52

[Gordon Jones]

The UEA's report card is tendentious, to say the very least.

I have not looked at the specific votes rated in the scorecard Jennifer
cites, but I have looked carefully at UEA's rating process in the past, and
found it very curious.

For example the UEA opposed final passage in 2001 of a bill that contained a
5.5 percent increase in the Weighted Pupil Unit instead of the 6 percent
demanded by the teachers’ union. Public education fave Sheryl Allen voted
for it (as did a number of other liberal members no longer in the House),
proving that no one can ever please the UEA.

That same year the UEA rated a vote that would have automatically adjusted
tax brackets to correct for the effects of inflation. As inflation pushes
wage earners from the lower tax bracket into the higher, the state gets
increased revenue without legislators having to vote for a tax increase.
This problem was corrected by indexing the tax brackets at the federal level
back during the Reagan years, but the UEA likes the windfall, and marked
down any legislator who voted to correct this unfairness, including Brent
Goodfellow and Judy Ann Buffmire, not normally thought of as enemies of
education.

Whether these votes (and several others like them) are "education" votes at
all is debatable, but there were some votes that clearly were that the NEA
didn't even touch. How about school bus safety, for example? The UEA
ratings were silent on that issue, even though the bill passed the House by
the relatively close vote of 41-30 and the Senate by one vote, 15-14. Why
doesn't the UEA care about school bus safety, and how the legislature votes
on it?

Or how about Karen Morgan’s Reading Achievement Bill? It was voted on twice
in the House, failing once and passing on the second go-round. Surely the
UEA had a position, and could rate the legislators on this issue. Everyone
agrees that reading is the keystone of all education, but the UEA didn’t
rate the vote.

Or college tuition waivers for teachers, introduced by Wayne Harper (R-Salt
Lake). No rating by the UEA

The point is that UEA ratings are not as concerned with education per se as
you might suppose. My analysis seems to indicate that the UEA is much less
likely to rate votes that have to do with questions of curriculum, safety,
and school management, but that they always weigh in on questions of how
much money is going to be available to pay teachers.

Of course that what unions are for: to protect their members. But in this
case protecting their members and protecting the school children are not the
same thing.

g

[Gordon Jones]

Sigh.

The UEA does indeed represent "professional educators who know what works in

schools and who care enough about children's education to actually have a

career serving them." It also represents incompetent teachers who don't
know what works and whose "care" is only about putting in their time until
retirement, who are doing their students no good and in some cases actual
harm. An indictment of the UEA (and its parent the NEA) is not an
indictment of teachers.

g

[Scott & Lisa McDonald]

Using vouchers to beat up Greg Hughes makes about as much sense as using prohibition to beat up Mitt Romney.

 

Both support the respective ideas in principle, but wouldn’t try to legislate it again because the people have spoken.

 

Scott

[Gordon Jones]

I doubt that Greg has a stronger supporter on this forum than I, but I will defend push polling, and also the kind of voter ID campaigning that seems to be going on here.

 

Speaking as a political scientist, I note that there are technically three things that are often lumped together as "push polling." Two of these are legitimate. 

 

1. Pollsters polling a scientific sample will sometimes "push" respondents who answer undecided: "If you had to vote today, who would you vote for?"  Dan Jones does this a lot (not that I consider Dan Jones a model).  This kind of polling is not relevant to Utah House District 51: the universe is too small to permit scientific sampling in any kind of cost-effective way;

 

2. Campaigns will sometimes try out different policy options or character attacks to see if they move voters: "If you knew that John McCain owned six different residences, would that make you more or less likely to vote for him?"  The point here is to see what advertising themes will be effective.  A key point is that the policy position or personal character trait has to be "true." 

 

This type is of dubious relevance to Utah House District 51: what would an "ad campaign" look like?  There is no specific media market that can be used cost-effectively.  No candidate is going to change yard signs in response to such "poll" results;

 

3. Negative campaigning masquerading as polling.  "If you knew that Greg Hughes had voted repeatedly to cut education funding, would you be more or less likely to vote for him?"  Not only is the charge untrue, but it is not part of a scientific poll designed to measure public opinion.  It isn't "polling" at all.  

 

This kind of "polling" can be used to identify favorable voters, or at least voters who would be susceptible to specific appeals.  That is what Lisa's defenders are saying these calls are.

 

For example, if I get a call asking "If you knew that Greg Hughes supported education vouchers, would that make you more or less likely to vote for him?" and I answered less, I could be put on a list to receive a campaign mailer explaining that Greg does support vouchers, and then be targeted for GOTV calls.

 

Lisa's post (and I have no reason to doubt her) says that the actual language of the "poll" asks voters if they would vote for "Republican Greg Hughes, who supports funding things like private school vouchers while Utah's public schools are the most underfunded in the Nation."  Assuming that the "pollsters" are professional and trained (unlikely) and that they in fact read the question as written (uncertain), it seems to me that this is a fair enough question.  Greg does support vouchers, so that part is true.  No one has never been able to say what "fully-funded" means, so the second part is questionable, but it is certainly a widely held view and defensible. 

 

I would call it "negative" campaigning (in the sense that it is an attack on Greg rather than something positive about his opponent), but then I find negative campaigning legitimate.  I wouldn't call it push polling.

 

g

 

 

 

[Brad Wilson]

Gordon,

I've yet to see you at any of the UEA meetings I've attended. In every one, the main focus has been on how to get increased funding for research-based, proven reforms (like smaller class sizes) from a legislature who wants to use some of our precious tax dollars for meaningless programs. Of course, teacher salaries play a part in quality education, because many of Utah's graduates (BYU/UofU) leave for states that pay more. Obviously, you hate unions, but unions in general helped your ancestors get a 40-hour, five day work week with tolerable working conditions.


Jennifer Wilson

----------------------------------------
> From: sof...@comcast.net

> To: 84020vi...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [DraperViewpoint] Re: Push Polls

> Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 09:53:03 -0600

[Scott & Lisa McDonald]

Jennifer,

Both Gordon and his wife are career educators (like you) --but they are not
UEA members.

I don't see anything Gordon has said which would indicate he opposes unions.
But clearly, he takes issue with the UEA.

Scott

[Brad Wilson]

Hi Scott,

I know they are teachers and the UEA has helped them get the benefits/salaries they enjoy. You don't need to be a member of the UEA to benefit from their efforts to get teachers and school children what they deserve. And every American who works has benefitted from the historical efforts of unions. Thanks, in part, to them, we have weekends! Hope football season is going well for you! We miss seeing you and Austin.

Jen


Jennifer Wilson

----------------------------------------
> From: slmcd...@xmission.com
> To: 84020vi...@googlegroups.com
> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 00:56:53 -0600

_________________________________________________________________
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[Gordon Jones]

Jennifer:

Does it elevate the debate for you to accuse me of "hating" unions? Why is
that hatred "obvious"? I pointed out, with clear and unambiguous
documentation, that the UEA's approach to education issues, as revealed by
its legislative scorecard, is often somewhat eclectic. Is that evidence of
hatred?

Do you have a response mode other than vituperation?

Would you, by the way, even recognize me if you saw me (at a UEA meeting or
anywhere else)? I wouldn't recognize you.

g



----- Original Message -----

From: "Brad Wilson" <bkwil...@msn.com>
To: <84020vi...@googlegroups.com>

[Gordon Jones]

I've changed the thread because we have obviously left push polling far
behind.

I don't want to fly under false colors. Complete disclosure:

Although I have a Master's degree in education (Stanford 1968) I taught only
one year before taking up public policy analysis as a "career." A
significant portion of that analysis was dedicated to the issue of
education. I did teach part time over that 35 year period, and have taught
an almost full load at Salt Lake Community College for the last six years.

My wife taught for six years (in New Jersey, Massachusetts, Utah and
California) before taking a 30-year leave to raise our children. She also
taught part time over that period, and she has now taught for seven years in
the Jordan School District.

Incidentally, in a lifetime of looking, I have never seen any evidence,
"research-based" or otherwise that shows any benefit from smaller class
sizes, unless you get down to class sizes of five students or so, which is
clearly beyond the realm of possibility in the real world.

Let us suppose the legislature appropriated an additional $100 million for
Utah's schools. What would the UEA advocate doing with that additional
money? Hire more teachers, or raise the pay of the existing pool of
teachers?

g

[Gordon Jones]

My wife does not get the salary she deserves. Because of the UEA, she is
limited to the same pay that the worst teacher in her school district
(holding constant training and years of experience) gets.

g

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brad Wilson" <bkwil...@msn.com>
To: <84020vi...@googlegroups.com>

[Brad Wilson]

Gordon,

If you have never seen any evidence of the benefit of smaller class sizes, than you don't see what every other person sees. Of course your wife doesn't get the money she deserves; no teacher does. Even bad teachers deserve some pay - they put up with a lot. Bad lawyers, bad doctors, bad politicians (the list is endless) get paid, and many times they make as much as their better qualified colleagues. Many corporate workers don't know what their colleagues make (even those people who are horrible at what they do) because they'd get fired for discussing salary. And, no, market forces don't automatically rid a company of incompetent workers. That's life. Without the UEA, your wife might even make less. Don't kid yourself into thinking that Utahns are going to pay great teachers what they are worth, whether those teachers are in a school district or private school. There's not enough money here. That's why I want the legislature to use our meager resources wisely. I hate bad teachers, but when our uneducated legislature uses money for meaningless junk (and would love to pass that money to vouchers), many good teachers leave. If I actually needed the money I make on my salary, I would NEVER live in Utah. I'd join the exodus of good teachers going to other states where they pay more and value public education more. I surmised you hate unions (at least the UEA) from your derisive tone. Perhaps I'm wrong; maybe you respect unions and the contributions they have made to America. If you are at the meetings, introduce yourself! I'd love to meet you. Hope you enjoy your weekend.

Jennifer Wilson

----------------------------------------
> From: sof...@comcast.net
> To: 84020vi...@googlegroups.com

> Subject: [DraperViewpoint] education
> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 10:45:58 -0600

_________________________________________________________________
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[Gordon Jones]

Jennifer:

· What "every other person sees" does not constitute research. The
plural of "anecdote" is not "data." I have been reading educational
research studies for more than 40 years, and the results are simply
inconclusive. At some level (probably under 20 students per class,
certainly under 10) there are beneficial results, at least in some subjects
and at lower grade levels. No one has ever been able to document any effect
from a reduction from (say) 28 students to (say) 22.



If Utah's average class size is 25, it would require a 20% expansion in the
number of teachers and in the physical facilities just to get to 20. How
much would that cost, and what other governmental priorities should be
sacrificed to pay for it?



Since Greg Hughes was elected, how much has the average class size been
reduced? How much has education spending been increased?



· Bad teachers do not "deserve some pay." Bad teachers should find
another line of work.



· Private companies with "incompetent workers" suffer in a
competitive market and unless they make changes go out of business.
Governments (including public school districts) are insulated from such
market forces.



· How would you go about assessing what teachers are "worth"? Would
you support testing to see how much their students learn under their
tutelage? The NEA (in a statement I just saw related to the party
conventions) opposes such testing: supporting only "salary supplements for
improved teacher practice leading to improved student learning, determined
by multiple indicators (not test scores or student achievement)." It is not
clear to me how "improved student learning" can be "determined" without
"test scores or student achievement" but perhaps you can explain it.



How does the UEA come down on testing? Does the UEA agree with the NEA on
this question? I already know that the UEA opposes anything most people
would recognize as "merit pay."



· I went back and read what I wrote about the UEA. I said that the
UEA scorecard was "tendentious" and "curious." I don't see anything
"derisive" in that. By contrast, your reference to our "uneducated
legislature" is clearly derisive. May I assume that you hate legislators?



· And incidentally, you did not answer my question: If that
"uneducated legislature" accidentally provided an additional $100 million to
the public schools, how would you want it used? To hire more teachers, thus
reducing class sizes? Or to increase the salaries of the existing teacher
pool?

g


----- Original Message -----

From: "Brad Wilson" <bkwil...@msn.com>
To: <84020vi...@googlegroups.com>

[Brad Wilson]

Man, Gordon, you have time on your hands!  I would use extra money to reduce class size to 20-24 students and give teachers more money so Utah salaries are competitive with the region.  Since you haven't been in a classroom with 28-35 kids, you have no idea what a difference 5 or so less students makes.  When I taught honors English to 45 kids, it was unmanageable.  Compare that to my own experience in h.s. with 20 kids in my class and I had a better experience. You don't need any research for that; just common sense and actual experience with overcrowded classrooms. 
 
Greg H. is uneducated and his judgment on where to spend tax dollars (vouchers, paltry increases for science degrees) is poor.  I don't hate legislators; I just don't respect those who act like authorities on education when they have no degree themselves and especially when they've never taught.  I'm sure Hughes is doing the best he can, but there are others more competent than he to make education decisions.  I know my own family members, who have served in the US Senate and US Congress and who are Ivy League grads, are much more willing to listen to professionals in various fields on what works for them.  It seems in Utah that our conservative caucus legislators think they know better than educators on what works for schools; they don't.
 
I know I'm not responding to your entire post, but I am not a blogger and usually spend my time doing more productive things for society and my family. 
 
Jen Wilson


Jennifer Wilson

[DeLaina Tonks]

Jen,

 

Are you saying that unless someone has a degree, (preferably an advanced one from a high-ranking university), and has taught in a classroom, (preferably one with more than 28 students), they can’t possibly understand the plight of teachers in Utah and they shouldn’t be making the decisions for education? If so, that smacks of condescension and elitism in the worst way.  

 

Let’s turn that around: Unless you have served in the legislature, and have tried to deal with funding the needs of everyone and everybody in a fair and judicious manner, you are not qualified to make judgments on them doing their jobs. Try replacing the word “educator” with “legislator”, and “education” with “experience” in the second paragraph of your post below, and imagine the reaction.

 

As a general side note, not in direct response to your post…something I am noticing around campaign time is the one-issue voters crying foul because whichever legislator they are referencing is not fully satisfying their demands. I see this at PTA meetings, hear it from the FOP, corrections officers etc. It seems to me that one of the reasons we have a legislative branch of government, is for them to look at the big picture, to determine the needs of the many versus the needs of the one. They absolutely should listen to all of their constituents, and their personal issues and gripes, but at the end of the day, education is only one of the many issues that our legislators must take into consideration as they determine how to allocate funds.

 

That being said, education happens to also be something that I follow very closely, and I regularly make suggestions to my legislators (Rep. Dougall, Sen. Stephenson) and others in the area (Rep. Hughes, Sen. Niederhauser) on what I think are better ways to improve education, specifically foreign language ed, my area of experience. Like you, I appreciate smaller class sizes-my personal number is 26-any more than that and it takes twice as long to cover the material, assess, etc. Like you, I agree that many out-of-state schools produce high-quality education and pay teachers more. But there are many factors that come into play to make that happen, not just money.

 

        DeLaina Tonks

 

PS I taught at PG Jr. High for a year, a decade at Upper Arlington Schools in Ohio, and two years at an online school in Ohio.

PPS I also have a Master’s Degree from Ohio State in Second Language Acquisition

PPPS My mom is a Humanities professor at BYU, but she didn’t get her degrees until she was in her 40’s. She wasn’t any less intelligent in her 20’s and 30’s…

PPPPS We moved to Ohio for my husband to go to law school, not so I could teach out of state and make a boatload more money than I would have made in UT, even though that was a pleasant consequence

---

> </html

[Scott & Lisa McDonald]

Jen,

 

Gordon is one of the more productive folks I know.  He has been deeply committed to serving this community for many years.  Knowing this about him makes me wonder where he finds time to post in ViewPoint –but I am glad he does.  As with all  those individuals who post here, I learn things from him –even those times when I don’t agree with him.

 

Because of the amount I learn in ViewPoint, I value the time folks spend on posts here, and consider it to be of value to society.

 

Scott

> </html

[Bill Colbert]

Jen,

 

Resorting to personal attacks and name calling are fruitless.  However, I confess I am a good friend of Greg's, but that friendship is only a few years old and developed through trust, understanding and a great respect for his wisdom, vision and intellect. 

 

I am fed up with people judging people by their degrees and where they went to school.  Since you seem so impressed by your family members who have served in the US Senate and Congress and their "Ivy League" degrees, perhaps you can explain why our Federal Government is so corrupt and dysfunctional.  Many of those responsible for our current state affairs (in both parties) have advanced degrees from prestigious "Ivy League" schools.  Obviously, any positive correlation between wisdom, leadership, vision and an "Ivy League" education is weak at best and more likely negative.

 

Bill Colbert

Masters of Arts in Education, Chapman University

Masters of Science in Civil and Environmental Engineering, University of California Los Angeles

Bachelor of Science in Electrical Engineering, Ohio State University

Bachelor of Arts in Liberal Studies, New York State University

Bachelor of Applied Science in Resource Management, Troy State University

 

P.S.  There are those on this board who feel that none of my degrees have given me a lick of wisdom, even though I was a "Rocket Scientist" for over half my career in the US Air Force.

[Gordon Jones]

[Brad Wilson]

Scott (and Gordon, too),

In no way did I mean to imply that Gordon is not productive or that public discourse on the internet is not valuable. I'm sorry if it sounded that way. In previous posts, I was trying to find common ground with Gordon and let him know I don't support bad teachers, either, but it didn't go anywhere. Gordon, I am still raising kids, so I don't have the time to blog like I would if my children were grown. In addition, teaching is very time consuming and I am on the front lines (unlike legislators who tell me they know more than I and turn my professional organization into the bad guys). I appreciate everything anyone does in the community!


Jennifer Wilson

________________________________
> From: slmcd...@xmission.com
> To: 84020vi...@googlegroups.com

> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 22:38:40 -0600
> Subject: [DraperViewpoint] Re: education

[Brad Wilson]

Bill,

Just because I don't support Greg Hughes doesn't mean it's a personal attack. There are lots of people who have had encounters with him who can share "personal attack" stories. The only reason I bring up Hughes is because the legislature decides where to put education dollars for my children and I don't believe he is the most competent to do that. I know him, too, and so do a lot of others who don't support him. He is not intellectual or wise or cooperative with those who don't agree with him. Too bad if you're fed up with people judging others on their talents/accomplishments/education/judgment calls/looks/careers/you name it. That's life.

The federal government has been controlled by ultra-conservative, incompetent people like Bush for 8 years - thank them for the mess.

I was using my family as an example of men who, despite being intelligent and well-educated, discuss issues and gather opinions from those who know more than they do about any particular field. Our conservative caucus doesn't do that. If you want to disparage people who are smart enough for Ivy League, go ahead.


Jennifer Wilson

________________________________
> Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 09:47:06 -0600
> From: billc...@gmail.com

> To: 84020vi...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [DraperViewpoint] Re: education
>

> Jen,
>
> Resorting to personal attacks and name calling are fruitless. However, I confess I am a good friend of Greg's, but that friendship is only a few years old and developed through trust, understanding and a great respect for his wisdom, vision and intellect.
>
> I am fed up with people judging people by their degrees and where they went to school. Since you seem so impressed by your family members who have served in the US Senate and Congress and their "Ivy League" degrees, perhaps you can explain why our Federal Government is so corrupt and dysfunctional. Many of those responsible for our current state affairs (in both parties) have advanced degrees from prestigious "Ivy League" schools. Obviously, any positive correlation between wisdom, leadership, vision and an "Ivy League" education is weak at best and more likely negative.
>
> Bill Colbert
> Masters of Arts in Education, Chapman University
> Masters of Science in Civil and Environmental Engineering, University of California Los Angeles
> Bachelor of Science in Electrical Engineering, Ohio State University
> Bachelor of Arts in Liberal Studies, New York State University
> Bachelor of Applied Science in Resource Management, Troy State University
>
> P.S. There are those on this board who feel that none of my degrees have given me a lick of wisdom, even though I was a "Rocket Scientist" for over half my career in the US Air Force.
>

[Lisa Johnson]

Although Jennifer and I agree on many things, I feel I need to make my own view clear on one subject.  I think it’s fitting that our legislators come from many different backgrounds, and I would not question a person’s ability to serve in that capacity based on his or her education.  I know many intelligent, capable people who excel in their own fields and who have accomplished many things without the benefit of a college degree, including some within my own family.  I know that not everyone is able, for one reason or another, to attend an Ivy League school, and some who are able to do so choose not to.  I don’t think that people who have a degree from an elite university have a corner on the market when it comes to intelligence, experience, willingness to serve, or an ability to listen to different sides of an issue and make a reasonable decision. 

 

I do acknowledge and value the experience that other people bring to the table in a policy discussion.  For example, I think that doctors, nurses, and other healthcare professionals bring valuable perspectives to a discussion on healthcare policy.  Though most of us have been patients, that doesn’t mean that we understand everything about providing medical care, running a healthcare business, or making the kinds of decisions that they make every day. 

 

By that same token, I value and respect the experience of professionals who have dedicated their careers to teaching.  My mother received her college degree in her thirties.  While she had always been intelligent, capable, and enthusiastic, the training she received in her degree program certainly did increase her knowledge and improve her skills as a teacher.  Decades of experience in a classroom have helped her to hone those skills even more.  I know that she and the thousands of other teachers who belong to the Utah Education Association can share an important perspective on education, and I admit to being bothered by some of the comments I’ve heard over the years dismissing the UEA as being self-serving.  I find those comments to be as offensive as if someone were to suggest the Utah Medical Association didn’t care about patients or that their analyses of healthcare legislation were irrelevant.

 

I understand that education is an important issue that affects everybody in our community in one way or another.  Perhaps that is why many of us feel very strongly about our own views on education policy and why education policy discussions can be so passionate.  That being said, I do think it is important that the discussion focus on ideas, issues, and priorities.  I appreciate it when others share their own experiences and explain how their own backgrounds have informed their view of a situation.  It helps me to understand things better and to get a better look at the “big picture.” When I read posts like that on a forum like this, I often gain new insights.  I hope that people will continue to bring different perspectives to this forum.

 

Lisa

 

 

---

From: 84020vi...@googlegroups.com [mailto:84020vi...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bill Colbert
Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2008 9:47 AM

[Brad Wilson]

Delaina,

Teachers in the classroom are some of the best people to consult when making education decisions, just as surgeons are the best to consult about how to run a surgical unit, firemen are the best to consult on how to run a fire station, etc. I know Hughes/Stephenson/et al think they know what is best, despite any actual experience in a classroom. The analogy of legislatures and teachers is flawed because teaching is a professional career requiring education and certification. Anyone can be elected to the legislature and a part-time legislature like ours has many types. There are many citizens who would make outstanding legislators and I happen to think Lisa, with her intelligence, judgment, cooperation skills, and open-minded perspective, would be a better legislator and serve ALL Draper residents (not just those who agree with her).

Having a degree, while many think I'm being elitist, is important in the white collar world. This is America, not Africa. Everyone who values education can walk the walk (get a degree) and not just talk the talk. Children and young adults in impoverished countries would give anything to get an education. Americans from Greg's generation (mine, too) who choose not to get a degree just talk the talk. As for high-ranking universities, well, I'm from the D.C. area. Growing up there, it's not if you go to college, it's how good of a school can you get into. At least it was that way in my community. Maybe that's why there are so many job opportunities back there. A premium is placed on education.

I know there are many issues that demand public money - I just jumped on the education one because I'm a mom who wants my kids to be able to compete with my friends' kids who are back east:)


Jennifer Wilson

________________________________
> From: dct...@MStar2.net
> To: 84020vi...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [DraperViewpoint] Education
> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 22:16:44 -0600

[Gordon Jones]

Jennifer:

 

For what it is worth, according to this website (http://www.publicschoolreview.com/state_statistics/stateid/UT)

we have already reached your goal of 20 students per teacher in Utah.  If we took the postulated $100 million and spent it only on new hires (assuming we could find them) we could lower that ratio to 18:1, which might actually get to where it might have an effect.

 

As a practical matter, that's not what would happen, though, would it?  I'm willing to bet that the UEA would never let all that money go to new hires.  What do you think? 

 

A second practical consideration would be that we would need 3,000 new classrooms, meaning 11 new schools (in addition to those needed to keep up with enrollment growth).

 

I continue to be astonished by your dismissal of research.  As I recall, you were the one demanding "meaningful, research-based educational reform."  Now you want us to legislate on the basis of, well, who knows what?

 

And your jumping to conclusions is really going to get you some pulled muscles one of these days.  I teach two sections at SLCC this semester with more than 40 students in each (my third section has 30).  In California, I taught high school classes with 90 students in them.  I have had "actual experience" with crowded classrooms.  Whether they were overcrowded or not is, in a way, the subject of this debate.

 

I appreciate that your time is limited, but if you do get a minute's respite from doing productive things for society (for which I thank you on society's behalf, by the way), here's a short list of the points I have raised that you haven't addressed:

 

1. Class size and spending since Greg (The Uneducated) Hughes was elected;

2. Should "bad teachers" receive some pay?

3. How do we decide what a teacher is "worth" in a non-market setting (such as a public school system)?  Specifically,

4. Does the UEA support student achievement as a criterion, measured by standardized tests, or does the UEA follow its parent organization?

 

5. And I'll add another from your most recent post: if the state legislature is too incompetent to manage schools, what exactly do you suggest?  That the taxpayers' money be given to "educators" (read: the UEA) without any accountability?  Or are you actually arguing (Dieu forfend!) that a private market in education would be preferable to our current politicized system?

 

6. Why exactly does a decision to spend tax dollars on "paltry [$5,000 is 'paltry'?] increases for science degrees" reflect "poor judgment"?  By common consent (and even research), the two areas where teacher shortages are most critical are science and math.  I'm not sure that the legislature chose the best way to address the crisis, but it is at least arguable.  You would likely disagree with my proposed solution, but that fact (if it is a fact) may indicate that what the legislature did was a compromise.

 

Thanks, I did have a great weekend.  In addition to the "Guys and Dolls" production at Juan Diego (5 more shows, Monday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday 2:30 and Saturday 7:30) I took in "Always...Patsy Cline" at the Grand (good--maybe great if you're a C&W fan).

 

Best,

[DeLaina Tonks]

Jennifer,

I absolutely agree with you that legislators should consult experts in all
fields to help determine funding and programs. I have to disagree with your
assessment of Rep. Hughes and Sen. Stephenson, because I have been asked on
more than a few occasions for input on legislation concerning the science
teacher bonuses, foreign language ed, merit pay, etc. In my estimation and
experience, they have and do consult professionals in education.

They also regularly host/attend openhouses and meet with teachers, and
parents and ask for input. I attended several this spring and summer, and
was impressed that our elected officials would take the time to meet so
willingly with their constituents, to gather input and to share their
legislative experiences. I learned a lot.

I also know that Rep. Hughes extends invitations to PTA, Community Councils,
and teachers to do lunch and share their ideas on what the legislature can
do to improve the state of education. The last time this happened only a
handful of people showed up, and they got to give their input. I see them
asking, but in this instance not a lot of response came back, which seems
par for the course.

You said: "I don't hate legislators; I just don't respect those who act like

authorities on education when they have no degree themselves and especially
when they've never taught."

Perhaps I misunderstood your intent with that sentence. It sounded like
unless legislators were highly-educated teachers, you would not respect
their decisions on education. If that is not the case, I apologize. If that
is the case, then legislators should also have had hands-on fire fighting
training, police training, health-care experience, corrections experience
etc. ad nauseum, in order to be respected elected officials?

I don't live in Rep. Hughes's district, but from personal experience I have
seen him go to bat for education and work hard to communicate with
constituents.

I appreciate you sharing your background and experience, because I too,
learn a lot from these types of exchanges. I learn the most from those whose
opinions differ from mine, and am content to agree to disagree on
philosophies and candidates in order to preserve the civil exchange of
dialogue.

Enjoy what's left of the beautiful weekend.

DeLaina (with a capital "L")

[Gordon Jones]

Jennifer:

A personal attack is calling someone "uneducated." Calling someone "not
intellectual or wise or cooperative" is a personal attack.

"[O]ur conservative caucus" is a stereotype. The conservatives in the
legislature are a diverse group of people who disagree with one another, and
with many of their supporters from outside. To say that they don't "discuss

issues and gather opinions from those who know more than they do about any

particular field" is a personal attack, in addition to being manifestly and
demonstrably false. Actually, many of them have asked me for advice on
education policy because I know more about it than they do.

Maybe you know a lot about education policy. Obviously you think you do.
But based on what you have posted here, I see no reason to think that you're
any kind of vade mecum on the issue. Mostly you seem to want to remind us
that you have intellectual, intelligent and Ivy League-educated political
relatives, and on that basis to ask for deference to what the UEA wants.

No one on this list is disparaging anyone for being able to get into an Ivy
League school. But someone (and that would be you) is very definitely
disparaging those who don't get into Ivy League schools and/or those who
don't have what you think are the proper "intellectual" attainments.

[Greg Hughes]

Lisa,

Thank you. I appreciate and am grateful of the fact that you are committed to a campaign focusing on ideas, issues, and priorities. We are both willing and eager to participate in public debates and hope that we are able to raise the level of discourse in our race in a way that so many campaigns fall short. The fact that you have clarified your position and drawn a distinction between what some have considered personal attacks and the substantive differences we have on public policy speaks volumes.

In that vein I want to also clarify that when I posted about the conflicting reports on the actual questions used in the poll, I in no way meant to infer that you, Lisa, were lying. If I gave anyone that impression, I apologize. This afternoon when we spoke you also mentioned that you have seen some comments made about your husband Craig. I would not want my wife brought into our debate and believe that there is no place for personal attacks against our family members.

Thanks again,

Greg

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

---

From: "Lisa Johnson" <li...@electlisa.org>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 13:28:16 -0600

[Bill Colbert]

Jennifer,

 

The Federal Government has not been run by conservatives for a long time.   President Kennedy was much more conservative in many areas than President Bush.  President Bush isn't conservative, except on a few social issues.  Otherwise, Congress and the President wouldn't spent money like druken sailors for years.  The last time we had any fiscal constraint, it was under a Republican Congress with a Democrat President. 

 

President Bush has endorsed outrageous programs like No Child Left Behind, Prescription Medical Coverage for Seniors and escalating deficit spending. The Democrats have controlled Congress for several years and the economy has deteriorated and the Federal Deficit has rapidly increased.  Over the last year, we have bailed out major financial institutions and recently bailed out failing mortgage institutions and individuals who made poor real estate decisions.  The Federal Government continues to repeatedly pay for the costs of rebuilding homes and businesses in known flood areas.  These are not conservative policies.  Deficit spending and passing the costs of irresponsible decisions to our nations children and grandchildren are not conservative policies. 

 

Regarding our state education spending, I have suggested that the legislature give the State Office of Education the authority to set the Education budget.  I know my suggestion won't go anywhere, but it would be interesting to see what if you would be happy with the consequences.  I wouldn't be surprised if in order to reach per pupil spending parity with many other states would necessitate doubling our state income tax rate. 

 

I would like to see where the proponents of massive increases in education spending would get the needed funds.  Are you going to suspend any further road construction and operation and maintenance, close our prisons, eliminate all other state programs? 

 

It seems like it is easy to be a liberal and complain, but have no real solution on where to obtain the funding for all the desired program expenditures.  I would suspect any consequential tax increases would destroy our state's economy.

 

Whether or not you support Rep. Hughes was not my concern.  However, calling an individual "uneducated" whether or not you agree with them is a personal attack.

 

-Bill

[Brad Wilson]

Gordon,

Stating a fact (someone is uneducated) is not a personal attack unless you choose to be offended. Calling someone a "fu**ing midget" - now that's a personal attack. I never disparaged anyone who didn't go to top-rated schools; you are reading into things a lot. I could read into all of your pointed shots at me (there are too many to list), but I choose to believe you are a nice, elderly man who is very passionate about your public policy, vouchers, etc. The conservative caucus is not diverse, by the way, and I'm sure they've asked you, a voucher leader, for your opinion. Traditional public school teachers don't get that privilege. It is painfully obvious that I am a minority voice on this forum, and I had heard Utah doesn't do well with diversity, but this is ridiculous. There are a lot of homeless shelters, hospitals, neglected children who could use some volunteers. I'm signing off of this...

Jennifer Wilson

----------------------------------------
> From: sof...@comcast.net
> To: 84020vi...@googlegroups.com

> Subject: [DraperViewpoint] Re: education
> Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 16:11:22 -0600

[Bill Colbert]

Jen,

Jennifer,

 

The incident that you are seem to be so fond and eager to continue to repeat, even after sincere apologies were given and accepted between the two individual parties is a continued demonstration of your hostility towards Greg.  While regrettable, the incident was between two distinct individuals who have mended their differences.  It was not in a public forum.  Hopefully, your life is so perfect that any indiscretion on your part, even after you have sought forgiveness from the person(s) you have offended, will not be repeated by those who were not involved, but merely want to hurt you.  To me, it is "unChristian", but that might be construed as a personal attack.

 

-Bill

[Scott & Lisa McDonald]

Lisa,

 

I’m still waiting for a response from you on my question (below) about the push poll.

 

Additionally, I know you (and some supporters) have historically been very critical of your opponent’s educational record.  Greg (as chairman of the House Educational Committee) was instrumental in the passage of $1.15 billion new educational dollars, an increase of 45%.  Based on this information, I have three questions for you.

 

1)      In your opinion,  was this enough of an increase?

2)      Assuming your answer is “no”, how much more is needed?

3)      Assuming you believe more is needed, if elected, what taxes are you going to raise, or what programs are you going to cut to provide additional educational funding?

 

Scott

 

 

From: 84020vi...@googlegroups.com [mailto:84020vi...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott & Lisa McDonald
Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 6:20 PM
To: 84020vi...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [DraperViewpoint] Re: Push Polls

 

Lisa,

 

Push polls are manipulative and condescending to voters. 

 

Do you genuinely believe that the question:   “ [can you vote for] Republican Greg Hughes, who supports funding things like private school vouchers while Utah’s public schools are the most underfunded in the Nation.” is not a push poll question --that is, designed to develop an opinion rather than measure it? 

 

If you can honestly answer “no”, then I question your judgment.  If you answer “yes”, then you should publicly denounce the actions of your party. 

 

Which will it be?

 

Scott

 

From: 84020vi...@googlegroups.com [mailto:84020vi...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Lisa Johnson

Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 11:32 AM

To: 84020vi...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [DraperViewpoint] Re: Push Polls

 

“Quin Monson, an expert on polling and assistant director of Brigham Young University's Center for the Study of Elections and Democracy, said that people often mistake message-testing polls or voter ID polls for push polls because of the nature of the questions.

    But push polls generally are anonymous, oftentimes are recorded, aren't meant to gather any information and the message provided is often false. He said that does not seem to be the case with the Democratic calls.” 

--From today’s Salt Lake Tribune

 

I’ve looked into the details of the calls, and this is what I’ve found out.  The first thing that the callers said was that they were calling on behalf of the Democratic Party.  The caller ID clearly showed the number for the Utah State Democratic Party.

 

I checked with the party and got the actual wording of the question.  It asked the responders if they would vote for “Republican Greg Hughes, who supports funding things like private school vouchers while Utah’s public schools are the most underfunded in the Nation.”

 

Greg has been very vocal about his support of private school vouchers, not only by voting for the measure, but also by forming a Political Issues Committee with a budget of $300,000 to defend it and by participating in many advocacy meetings and debates on the subject.  To my knowledge, he has never changed his position on that issue. 

 

After voters rejected vouchers last November (statewide, in every county, and in Greg’s own House district), Greg said that he didn’t think the issue would be very relevant to his re-election bid.  He told the Salt Lake Tribune in March that the voucher issue “is not going to have much impact except for the zealots.”  I’m sure he hopes that’s the case, but there are likely to be voters who are still bothered by the fact that Greg fought for a proposal they did not want.  This sort of ID question is designed to find out who those voters might be.

 

I’m happy to participate in many public debates for this race, and have been talking with several organizations about those plans, including the Draper Youth Council (thanks for posting the notice, DeLaina), the Draper Chamber of Commerce, and the PTA.  If you know a group that is interested in sponsoring a public debate, please let me know.  I look forward to discussing all the issues that are important to Draper and Sandy residents.

 

By the way, the Deseret News just posted a full script of the calls, which you can read here:  http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700258019,00.html.

 

Lisa

 

 

---

From: 84020vi...@googlegroups.com [mailto:84020vi...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of DeLaina Tonks

Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 11:16 AM

To: 84020vi...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [DraperViewpoint] Re: Push Polls

Part of the determination is whether the information being given is true or false. Greg was able to show evidence that the information was inaccurate, therefore I think it sounds a little deceptive.

 

        DeLaina Tonks

        801.495.9559

---

From: 84020vi...@googlegroups.com [mailto:84020vi...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Joan Little

Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 11:01 AM

To: 84020vi...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [DraperViewpoint] Re: Push Polls

 

According to the expert from BYU who is quoted in the article Jennifer posted, this isn't a push poll. Why not read it?

Joan

---

From: slmcd...@xmission.com
To: 84020vi...@googlegroups.com
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 10:52:21 -0600

Subject: [DraperViewpoint] Re: Push Polls

Joan,

 

“campaign stunt, attempts to deceive, deceptive practices, substantive campaign trickery”

 

Wouldn’t a “push poll” constitute all of these things?  If that occurred, how would illuminating it be a personal attack?

 

Scott

 

From: 84020vi...@googlegroups.com [mailto:84020vi...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Joan Little

Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 10:30 AM

To: 84020vi...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [DraperViewpoint] Re: Push Polls

 

Scott, with all due respect back, I love candidates discussing issues. I don't like them slinging mud. Phrases like "" are just a few of the "notes" that made me uncomfortable.

I know that you are a staunch Greg Hughes supporter as you have stated publicly many times and for that reason, this particular post may "read" differently to you.
I suggest you, I, and the other moderators discuss this privately.  

Joan

> From: slmcd...@xmission.com
> To: 84020vi...@googlegroups.com
> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 10:13:12 -0600

> Subject: [DraperViewpoint] Re: Push Polls
>
>

> Joan,
>
> With all due respect, I thought getting candidates in here to debate is
> something we all wanted. Would you disagree? I wouldn't classify what is
> going on here as a personal attack or an advertisement.
>
> I have tried (once via e-mail, once in person) to get Lisa Johnson to post
> in ViewPoint for several months now. While she did register, she has been
> silent. I (and I believe others) would also like to hear her response to
> what Greg has posted. A "candidate identification poll" sure sounds like a
> push poll to me.
>

> Scott
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: 84020vi...@googlegroups.com

> [mailto:84020vi...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of joan
> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 8:22 AM
> To: 84020Viewpoint

> Subject: [DraperViewpoint] Re: Push Polls
>
>

</html

<BR

 

[Gordon Jones]

Jennifer:

I suppose that it could be a "fact" that someone is uneducated, but it would
be hard to determine. On the other hand, it is easy enough to verify if one
has graduated from an institution of higher learning, and if only those that
have can be considered "educated," then you might have a case. (I'm
constantly amazed at liberals' disdain for actual people who don't measure
up to their intellectual standards while at the same time protesting against
the supposed social rigidities of conservatives, and touting the wisdom of
the common man.)

But when you come forth with statements like "the conservative caucus is not
diverse" and you imply that conservative legislators do not ever talk to
traditional public school teachers, you make it painfully obvious that facts
are not your strong suit. If that is a personal attack, to use your own
words, "that's life." It seems to me to be amply demonstrated by your
adamant refusal to present any.

Your statement is an opinion, not a fact, as self-evident as it may seem to
you, and your implication is manifestly false, as any member of "the
conservative caucus" can easily document.

I am sorry, because I would have liked answers to some of the questions I
posed.

[Roger]

Jennifer-

So let me get this straight. You are on a quest for diversity, yet
have no respect for anyone without an Ivy League education. Makes
perfect sense...hmmm.

Did you really call Gordon elderly? Wow. Your victory must feel so
sweet.

I believe you are wrong on your statement about how alot of people
feel the same way you do. I'm not aware of anyone who opposes
Representative Hughes, and possesses as much hate and such an elitist
attitude as you. Even Lisa Johnson distanced herself from you.

Perhaps I should spend less time following politics and invest more
energy in making sure none of my children have you as a teacher.

Roger

> >> From: billcolb...@gmail.com

> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Katie Shell]

I have been one of the many "lurkers", reading this string with interest.
The time people put into their posts has been beneficial to me - - not just
in hearing their viewpoint but also because, reading between the lines, I
get an insight into the character of the individuals who post.

Let me tell anyone on this group who doesn't know Gordon that he is an
individual worthy of respect and admiration. He has earned his stripes and
we are fortunate to have the benefit of his experience and participation on
this group.

For the record, I am a supporter of public schools and feel we should put
our efforts and energies into improving them first. BUT - for the first
time on this group I am truly offended by a post. To "pat" Gordon on the
head and dismiss him as some dotty elderly man with nothing better to do
than blog his life away is ludicrous and condescending.

By the way, Gordon, and many on this group, ARE doing that volunteer and
public service work Jennifer is constantly referencing. Kudos to you all.

Katie Shell

[Brad Wilson]

I need to end this horrible string of posts on a good note. When I said "elderly" I in NO WAY meant disrespect and I in NO WAY disrespect Gordon or anything he has done. I have only tried to find common ground to work out opinions on what is best for children. I apologize that words that would be spoken are taken in different ways when written. I also want to point out that readers are reading things into words (elderly does not mean dotty but I didn't go through an editing process to choose the best words) and I think that my meaning has been misconstrued. The ONLY reason I brought up Ivy League was to show an example of people who listen to others' opinions. Nothing more. I'm just using examples from my own life and upbringing as I'm sure anyone would. We all use examples of our own life experiences to formulate opinions, and in Virginia, no one bats an eye if you bring up Ivy League. It's not a big deal and I'm sorry if readers have thought it condescending. I have not dismissed anyone else's opinion any more than mine has been dismissed/attacked. I wish everyone well in their children's education and hope that Utah can make the right decisions on how to spend money so that children here can reach their full potential. This is a sincere post - I wish no one ill will nor do I discount anyone's contributions to our community.


Jennifer Wilson

----------------------------------------
> From: ksh...@xmission.com
> To: 84020vi...@googlegroups.com
> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 09:25:56 -0600
> Subject: [DraperViewpoint] Re: education
>
>

[Scott & Lisa McDonald]

Jen and Brad Wilson are good friends of mine. I love and respect them. Jen
is a fantastic teacher. I think if anyone met Jen in person, then were to
read this thread, they would not believe it was the same person.

I know from personal experience how easy it is to get emotional about
something and say things you don't mean, or things that can be
misunderstood. It takes time to learn how to appropriately get your point
across in a forum like this.

I couldn't disagree with her more about Greg Hughes, whom I know to be an
honorable, good man --and an effective leader.

Scott

-----Original Message-----
From: 84020vi...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:84020vi...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Brad Wilson

Jennifer Wilson

>>>>> . What "every other person sees" does not constitute research. The

>>>>> plural of "anecdote" is not "data." I have been reading educational
>>>>> research studies for more than 40 years, and the results are simply
>>>>> inconclusive. At some level (probably under 20 students per class,
>>>>> certainly under 10) there are beneficial results, at least in some
>>>>> subjects
>>>>> and at lower grade levels. No one has ever been able to document any
>>>>> effect
>>>>> from a reduction from (say) 28 students to (say) 22.
>>
>>>>> If Utah's average class size is 25, it would require a 20% expansion
>>>>> in
>>>>> the
>>>>> number of teachers and in the physical facilities just to get to 20.
>>>>> How
>>>>> much would that cost, and what other governmental priorities should be
>>>>> sacrificed to pay for it?
>>
>>>>> Since Greg Hughes was elected, how much has the average class size
>>>>> been
>>>>> reduced? How much has education spending been increased?
>>

>>>>> . Bad teachers do not "deserve some pay." Bad teachers should find
>>>>> another line of work.
>>
>>>>> . Private companies with "incompetent workers" suffer in a

>>>>> competitive market and unless they make changes go out of business.
>>>>> Governments (including public school districts) are insulated from
>>>>> such
>>>>> market forces.
>>

>>>>> . How would you go about assessing what teachers are "worth"? Would

>>>>> you support testing to see how much their students learn under their
>>>>> tutelage? The NEA (in a statement I just saw related to the party
>>>>> conventions) opposes such testing: supporting only "salary supplements
>>>>> for
>>>>> improved teacher practice leading to improved student learning,
>>>>> determined
>>>>> by multiple indicators (not test scores or student achievement)." It
>>>>> is
>>>>> not
>>>>> clear to me how "improved student learning" can be "determined"
>>>>> without
>>>>> "test scores or student achievement" but perhaps you can explain it.
>>
>>>>> How does the UEA come down on testing? Does the UEA agree with the NEA

>>>>> on
>>>>> this question? I already know that the UEA opposes anything most
>>>>> people
>>>>> would recognize as "merit pay."
>>

>>>>> . I went back and read what I wrote about the UEA. I said that the

[Lisa Johnson]

Scott,

 

Most people recognize that school funding is not about pulling an arbitrary number out of the air.  It’s fundamentally about problem solving.  It’s about assessing and addressing important needs.  It’s about prioritizing. 

 

Why did the legislature spend money on computer programs for preschoolers to use at home?  Was that really a pressing need?  I guess it works out well for the vendor, and legislators get to add a few more million into their total “education” spending numbers.  That bill, by the way, failed on the House floor, only to rise Lazarus-like, fully-funded, in an omnibus bill.

 

Meanwhile, class-size reduction, which parents and teachers have been asking for, and which passed both houses (unanimously in the House), ended up with no funding. 

 

And why is the money for the math/science teacher bonuses sent through the state Human Resources department rather than through the Utah State Office of Education?  The USOE processes all other payroll funding for teachers and would have taken this project at no extra cost to the taxpayers.  Sending it through the HR department costs you and me an extra $300,000. 

 

After a decade of seriously declining funding effort, we have seen some improvements in the last couple of years.  That’s a good thing.  But we still have important needs to address.  Our classes are still too large.  We still have a teacher shortage.  We don’t have nearly enough counselors to help struggling students stay in school, succeed in class, and move on to college.  Many of our older schools do not meet current seismic code standards, putting our students’ safety at risk.  Some of these problems will clearly require extra funding to solve.  We had an opportunity during the recent boom years, while legislators were trying to decide what to do with the so-called “surplus,” to prepare for the future by addressing some of these concerns.  Unfortunately, many of them were not given adequate attention.  Under current economic conditions, it will be much harder to tackle the problems.  That’s not good for the kids.

 

One more thing to remember when talking about the increases in spending is that it’s getting more and more difficult to maintain the status quo.  Gas prices are up.  Food prices are up.  Construction costs are up.  Insurance costs are up.  Enrollment is up.  While the new funding is great, we need to remember that a portion of it goes towards funding inflationary and population growth.  This funding is vital, and is very much appreciated, but it doesn’t go towards addressing the unmet needs I discussed above.

 

Lisa

---

From: 84020vi...@googlegroups.com [mailto:84020vi...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott & Lisa McDonald

Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2008 10:07 PM
To: 84020vi...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [DraperViewpoint] Re: education

[Scott & Lisa McDonald]

Lisa,

 

Thank you for your response.

 

I understand from your post that you feel some educational funding could be put to better use.  This certainly may be a valid point.

 

I’m still left without answers to the questions I posed, however:

 

1)      In your opinion,  was this [$1.15 billion new educational dollars, an increase of 45] enough of an increase?

2)      Assuming your answer is “no”, how much more is needed?

3)      Assuming you believe more is needed, if elected, what taxes are you going to raise, or what programs are you going to cut to provide additional educational funding?

 

Additionally, I still do not know how you feel about the push poll.

 

Others in this forum probably have these same questions.  I know your time is valuable, but could you please try again?

<BR

[Heidi]

Joan:

In watching what happens in our legislature and especially in seeing
what was included in the Education Omnibus Bill. I have no doubt that
our legislators have no clue what goes on on a daily basis in our
public schools.

For the life of me I cannot understand why we are worrying about
educational software for our preschoolers when our students do not
have the basics (i.e textbooks) and our teachers do not have the money
for the supplies they need to adequately teach the core curriculum
that is mandated by the state.

Our principal has worked wonders and through parents and teachers
working together to come up with solutions to lack of legislative
funding we are providing valuable programs that enhance the quality of
our school. We have Margaret Bird and her fantastic management of the
School Trustlands fund to thank for providing funding for some part
time teachers to help during math and reading time so class size in
4th, 5th and 6th grade during that time is 20. Teachers and parents
have learned to be creative and flexible in finding solutions to the
education shortfall and we have our brains to thank for it not the
legislature. If many incumbents are re-elected I am bracing myself
for more of the same.

Heidi