Mechanical disc brakes: what's the verdict on Paul Klampers?

[al lin]

How are people's experience with Paul's single-piston design, especially when compared to TRP Spyres with their dual-piston?

Ever curious,

al

sf/ca

[Jeff Bertolet]

TRP’s have a well documented issue with the pad adjustment bolts backing out. Apparently, they come with stronger loctite from the factory these days, but buyer beware.

Haven’t used the Klampers.

How about the TRP Hy-Rd brakes?

Jeff “still no disc brakes in the fleet” Bertolet
DC

[Joe Bernard]

No comparisons for you, but short-pull Klampers work great on my Lightning Bolt.

[Adem Rudin]

I had a set of Spyres. They weren't particularly good, and I experienced the adjusters-backing-out issue while bombing down a steep rocky decent with a full bikepacking load. Into the trash with them.

That bike got the Paul Klampers. They're real good. Easy to install, easy to adjust, powerful. That said:

• They're big. If you have a seatstay mounted caliper, you may have issues fitting a rear rack. I've heard of installation issues on some chainstay-mounted setups; particularly smaller bikes with a tighter seatstay-chainstay angle.
• The cable exit is very high; the cable ends up not lining up with the lower housing mount at all on my frame
• $$$$$
  

Overall, I'm pretty happy with the Klampers. 

Another bike of mine got the Shimano BR-CX77 brakes. They're a little fiddlier to set up (and require 3 different size hex keys + a phillips! Madness!), but once set up properly and with the stock pads swapped for metallic, they stop just as well and feel just as good the the Klampers. They're more compact and a heck of a lot cheaper as well.

I've heard good things about the Hayes CX calipers, but I've never used them.

All this said: If you're riding a flat-bar bike, there's zero reasons not to go with a Shimano hydraulic setup. They're so good, and available for pretty cheap.

-Adem Rudin

Mountain View, CA

On Tuesday, July 31, 2018 at 4:56:42 PM UTC-7, al lin wrote:

[William Henderson]

Second all this: Klampers work great and set up easy, but they are so massive that they will interfere with many front and rear rack setups.

In terms of comparison: I’ve got Tektro hydros on a cargo bike and have used various Shimano ones as well. The Klampers feel equally powerful and modulate as well but don’t have quite the buttery smooth feel (which makes zero functional difference). One finger braking is totally doable with Klampers, and I’ve never had any fatigue on long recents. I haven’t tried the newer Avid or TRP mechanical disc brakes so I can’t compare there.

The big wheels and single piston design make the Klampers the easiest to adjust brakes I’ve owned (of any brake type). You can literally do it at a stoplight. This is important because every disc brake I’ve owned has occasionally rubbed - typically after removing and reinstalling a wheel, wet weather etc. So while hydro brakes need less tuning, I haven’t found Klampers to need much more and when they do it is easier to fix (spin thw little orange wheel vs loosen bolts to readjust caliper position). After getting the hang of it I find it much easier to keep dialed in than the Tektro cantilever brakes I commuted on before.

So: if it doesn’t mess up your rack situation, Klampers are a good choice if you want disc brakes but find the simplicity of cable actuation appealing.

[twowheeledtexan]

Long time Avid BB7 user here. I've never had a problem with them other than a bit of a squeal if not set up properly.

I have klampers on a drop bar bike and I'm not impressed. I used them first with the standard lever arm with Shimano levers, and now with the shorter arm with Campy levers. They're about on par with Tektro 559 sidewalls, which are only barely adequate in the Seattle area. I believe they absolutely must use compressionless housing or they'll be squishy. Haven't used them on a flat bar bike and I think they'd be better in that setup. But as others have said, the cheapest Shimano hydros are far far better and a fraction of the price. Adjustment of the klampers is no different than BB7s, and they're also a fraction of the price, smaller, and lighter.

I've used Spyres too. Haven't noticed the backing out of adjustment, but they do burn through pads quickly. I ate a new pair up in one muddy cyclocross race and ended up on my face.

TRP HyRds have the modulation of a full hydro if not the absolute power, and I really liked them. Easy set up, small body. Unfortunately 1 of them developed a leak. Shop tried to rebuild but no go. Put a sour taste in my mouth and I'm hesitant to try them again. If anyone wants to tinker with a set, I'll sell them cheap with new gasket kits!

I'd like to try the new Yokozumas which are like the hyrds.

I'll continue using the klampers until I have enough money to go full hydro. But if I buy more cable brakes, they'll be BB7s.

[Jonathan Pearson]

Maybe I just have expensive tastes, but as a clyde in Seattle, I need brakes that stop me. Spyres did not cut it. BB7s did not cut it. Klampers just work and work incredibly well -- so much so that we have them on every disc equipped bike in the house -- 4 total. Once you figure out the initial setup and how to adjust, I find them to be incredible brakes. I just got some polished klampers and they're just the prettiest pieces of bike jewelry I have ever owned.

As a worthy side note, I buy every component possible that is US made as I feel their quality stands for itself.

On Tuesday, July 31, 2018 at 4:56:42 PM UTC-7, al lin wrote:

[Theodor Rzad]

Love those Lite-nin Bolts!

[Theodor Rzad]

Hi Al

The Klampers on my Falconer are the first modern disc calipers I've used (the disc on my old Apple Krate doesn't count!)

Cameron located all cable guides well so I have no issues with cable line. Neither front nor rear mounts are flat though; perhaps this contributes to the smooth line.

I have no complaints about setup, feel, or power:

They're not the absolute best feel in my bike shack (the 1st-gen dual pivot Dura-Ace calipers on my Merckx win that round), but they're very, very good; easily on-par with the best cantilevers I've used (Paul Touring). I'm using them with TRP RRL levers and Jagwire Compressionless housing.

The Maguras on my Petaluma-era Salsa monster CX seem to have more ultimate power, I have not run out of power with Klampers on the steep decents in Marin and Sonoma Co I ride regularly.

They setup SO easily after I learned finer points of general disc caliper setup. 

The stock pads (Kool Stop metallic) make some noise in the wet and give off a lot of black soot but I find that with my Kool-Stop salmons and the metallic pads on my moto. I have a set organic pads that I'll try out of curiosity, but I've never liked organics on my motos.

As far as weight and bulk, I did not pay attention to those in my selection process as I knew I'd go with Pauls for this bike regardless. I have not had any issues in the ~1000 miles I have on the bike at this point, but they are kinda bulky so I can imagine it may be an issue for someone out there. As for weight, I think discs aren't for weight-conscious builds anyway. 

I'm really happy with them and have no wandering eye for other options. Ignorance could be bliss due to my total lack of experience with other disc options, but I know these are very well designed/engineered/manufactured. Swiss watch movement-level. They're not cheap, but worth the price ATMO.

I'm also in SF so I've you'd like to check them out in person, shoot me a PM!

Ted

On Tuesday, July 31, 2018 at 4:56:42 PM UTC-7, al lin wrote:

[Joseph Bernard]

Love those Lite-nin Bolts!

It's pretty suave. I had kinda lost the plot with it for a while 'cause I wasn't really gelling with the drop bars, then I converted to flat last week and plan to hit the dirt. Awesome bike!

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[Theodor Rzad]

On Wednesday, August 1, 2018 at 10:37:19 AM UTC-7, Jonathan Pearson wrote:

As a worthy side note, I buy every component possible that is US made as I feel their quality stands for itself.

This is precisely the reason the Klampers were an assumed spec for the Falconer: I wanted this bike to have as much as possible made in Nor-Cal. Living here made the career milestone for which this bike is a celebration possible. It currently has a King headset (though they're up in PDX now, this one is a vintage 90's from the stash that I'm pretty sure was made in Chico :) and a Thomsen stem (also from the stash), but at some point I'll get around to picking up a White Ind. or Phil headset and a Falconer stem. If White ends up releasing that 12 (13?) speed update to they uberawesome LMDS rear der, I'll be grabbing one of those too LOL (I very much regret selling the one I bought new at a garage sale!!!!)

- Ted

[Theodor Rzad]

I find them very, very tempting: looks, brains, style....who can argue with that! It's a T/A rear and QR front, yes? How do you like that setup with discs?

[Joseph Bernard]

Reversed: T/A in front where it stays secure when klamping that Klamper. I love it, now I wish all my rim brake bikes had them!

[Ben Van Dyke]

I installed my first set of drop bar hydraulic disc brakes a couple weeks ago. I went with the TRP hylex since I'm running bar end shifters. Excellent brakes all around, I find them much better than mechanicals for navigating the steep, rocky descents here in SoCal. The set cost less than a single Paul caliper. Haven't used the Pauls myself, but if you're willing to spend that much then I think you should at least take a look at hydro options.

Ben
LA, CA

[chipmartens]

I have both Spryres and Klampers installed on 2 of my current bikes, and cheaper Shimano hydro brakes on another.

The hydro brakes are an immediate stopping force, whereas the mechanical brakes allow you to choose how much braking power you wish to apply. I personally don't enjoy the abrupt stopping power of my hydro's. I also feel like working on mechanical discs is a much more pleasant experience.

The Klampers are on my flat bar bike and my Spyres are on a drop bar, which I'm sure makes a difference, but I would go for the Klampers based on the ease of adjustability alone. Comparing the two on their different bar setups, the Klampers have a much nicer feel when braking. 

If budget is no option, I'd splurge on Klampers 10 times out of 10. If you are working on a budget, the TRP's still feel like a great product and still work very well.

[dailyrandonneur]

We have used Avid BB7 (not the Spyre, sorry) and Klamper mechanical disk brakes on our road tandem, with 203mm rotors.  Some context: we live in the Mid-Atlantic with some very steep descents, and have also toured over the big ascents in Colorado with inn-to-inn loads: Trail Ridge Road, Independence Pass, others.

We switched to Klampers with Shimano Ice-Tech rotors after a Colorado mixed surface tour. The Avids would fade on long descents where I had to pump the brakes hard to keep our speeds under control.

On our next Colorado trip we didn't have fade with the Pauls and the Ice-Tech rotors. Our shop suggested that the Avids don't shed enough heat.

Klampers are much easier to work on; pad removal and install is fast. The lever arm also has minimal play, they are more responsive to lever pull as long as the cable slack is taken up.

BB7s are actually good for the price. Still, the Klampers work better under hard braking and are easier to set up and adjust. They cost a lot more and I see them as kind of a heavy-duty upgrade.

Ed Felker

Washington, DC

[Joseph Bernard]

"Heavy duty upgrade" sounds right to me. I never thought about it cuz I don't have much to compare them to, but my Klampers hauled my (very fast and heavy) Lightning Bolt down, no problem, when it was an ebike. When you're jamming around on a 45-pound bicycle at 35mph, you want big brakes!

--

[Justin Hughes]

In general this should not be and is not the case. What you're experiencing is something specific to your particular items and install. 

[Justin, Oakland]

Yeah I’m very able to modulate my entry level Shimano Deore hydros. Some people might set them up to be on/off but I get great brake feel and modulation with them. Very useful on my MTB.

-J

[Theodor Rzad]

Ah, that makes more sense to have TA on the front, though I’m still curious about why have the mix anyway.

[Mat Grewe]

How do Klampers fare with brake rub vs other disc brakes?

[Theodor Rzad]

Not a super comprehensive point of view, but I'll share anyway :)

I rode Paradise Loop with a buddy two weekends ago: he was using SRAM Red discs, I on Klampers. I had no rub, Mike had endless rub. We tried a few different things but no luck (I should point out that Mike is a deeply experienced bike mechanic and my mentor in the field 20 yrs ago) 

When I had rub with the Klampers a few months after install, I realized I hadn't properly aligned the caliper. 10 secs worth of wrenching later, I had no rub.

Ted 'sound of silence' Rzad in SF

On Thu, Aug 16, 2018 at 3:46 PM Mat Grewe <matg...@gmail.com> wrote:

How do Klampers fare with brake rub vs other disc brakes?

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[Jonathan Pearson]

I had an issue with rub come up yesterday on one set after a long, steep descent, like 1/2 mile hard on the brakes. I loosened up the caliper, squeezed the level, retightened, and it was silent again. Using RT-86 Rotors. I blame them more as they seem to bend under heat more than 1 piece rotors.

[Dan Widner]

I use the TRP Hy/Rds and like them very much. I am interested in trying the Klampers. I am curious how the two compare in size, especially related to potential fender and rack mounting issues noted with Klampers. I am sure either one would be fine.

Dan
Richmond VA

[William Henderson]

This is the kind of rack spacing issues you might see with Klampers. Had similar issues with a Hub Area Rack in the front.

[Mark Bulgier]

William Henderson wrote:

> This is the kind of rack spacing issues you might see with Klampers.

William I'm sure you know this but it should be mentioned for any newbies reading this: That long spacer puts a big bending load on the bolt, so you have to keep the cargo weight to a minimum.  I don't want to put a number on it but let's just say lightly loaded.

Putting a bending load on a bolt is seldom a good idea; engineers avoid it.  This is worse because your maximum bending load is in the threaded part, which is only about 4 mm diameter at the root of the thread.

A proper rack mount has the rack tab pressed tightly against the dropout, so the lever arm for the bending load is essentially zero.  The bolt is loaded mostly in shear.  (For the same reason, don't mount fender struts between the rack and the frame -- you want the rack to be innermost, right against the dropout.  Double eyelet dropouts avoid that problem by not sharing one eyelet between rack and fender struts.)

Many (most?) dropout eyelets have enough 'meat' that you can drill and tap them to 6 mm.  Bending loads should still be minimized, but a 6 mm bolt is a lot stronger than a 5 mm.  I'd also avoid stainless bolts -- the commonly available ones are very weak.  Get better-grade heat-treated bolts if you want to carry camping loads, and/or most any load off-road or on washboard.  And bring a spare bolt with you.

Mark Bulgier

Seattle

[njh...@gmail.com]

On Friday, 17 August 2018 13:55:37 UTC+10, William Henderson wrote:

This is the kind of rack spacing issues you might see with Klampers. Had similar issues with a Hub Area Rack in the front.

That photograph is a good argument for using flat mount calipers if you want to use disc brakes with racks. Here's bike with flat mount disc calipers and rack. I only have a Nitto R14 light rack on that bike, but I don't think the caliper would interfere with mounting any sort of rack:

Nick

 

[satanas]

Agreed; having the caliper inside the rear triangle simplifies rack mounting, but some frames locate PM calipers there. One advantage of flat mount (IMHO) is that the chainstay(s) can curve inwards closer to the dropout(s), and thus foot clearance should be better.

Both Topeak and Tubus make racks designed to clear rear-mounted calipers, and I'd be surprised if OMM didn't too.

Later,
Stephen

[William Henderson]

The aluminum spacer is carefully trimmed and tightly fitted. The bolt is not carrying all that shear.

William

Sent from my iPhone

--

[Alex Wetmore]

The photo is stretched horizontally, which makes it look worse than it already is.

I wouldn't kid yourself that the aluminum spacer is doing much to avoid bending the bolt.  The bolt head already shows some bending (unless that is camera distortion again) and that aluminum spacer is very small diameter without a lot of contact surface on either end.

Tubus racks often have a large mounting tab plate that comes with two eyelets, and room for a third, and I've gotten better clearance by mounting to the upper eyelet (meant for fenders) instead of the lower one.  Here is an example photo on my old Burley tandem with a Tubus Vega rack:

There is still a small spacer there, but it is under 10mm in length and I used a large diameter spacer that resists bending.

I don't think a flat mount caliper would have fit into that rear triangle.

Alistair Spence made what I think is a more elegant rack for clearing a disk caliper:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/duncancycles/273497050/in/photolist-qaK9o-4rCkbm-4ryfFn-qaLoe-qaLog/

The stay comes in front the rear to avoid most of the caliper.  Unfortunately he doesn't have a picture of it mounted to the bike.

alex

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From: 65...@googlegroups.com <65...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of William Henderson <william.c...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 6:16:27 AM
To: Mark Bulgier
Cc: 650b
Subject: Re: [650B] Mechanical disc brakes: what's the verdict on Paul Klampers?

 

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[Cary Weitzman]

Alex Wetmore wrote:

The stay comes in front the rear to avoid most of the caliper.

Axiom has a whole line of racks for disc brake equipped bikes that do this. eg:

https://www.axiomgear.com/products/racks/streamliner-racks/streamliner-29er-dlx/

Cary
PTBO.ON.CA

[Alex Wetmore]

Yes, but those use bolts and a place in a really ugly way, and it pushes the rack farther back behind the wheel (not desirable for handling).

Tubus also sells a conversion kit for their racks which does this, but it has the same downsides.

alex

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From: 65...@googlegroups.com <65...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Cary Weitzman <weitz...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 7:45:23 AM
To: 650b

Subject: Re: [650B] Mechanical disc brakes: what's the verdict on Paul Klampers?

[satanas]

Tubus also make the Disco:

https://www.tubus.com/product.php?xn=10

IMHO, it's better to have the caliper out of the way, and/or to avoid carrying rear panniers.

Later,
Stephen

[William Henderson]

Agreed on this. I ultimately choose to remove the rear rack and use a frame pack, saddlebag and front panniers for touring setups. If you want a rear rack with Klampers, you are best off mounting it far away from the caliper (up the seat stays or by mounting the caliper on the chain stay).

For the sake of academic discussion though, I still don’t see a problem with a long spacer if properly fitted. The ID of the steel spacer (I incorrectly said aluminum before) I used is 5.3mm, just bigger than the bolt. So it’s got almost 5mm of steal on both sides, which is quite a bit thicker than the tubing of the rack itself. Sure, it theoretically has more leverage working against it, but a properly snugged spaces bolt with a tight fit and a rigid spacer should not move up and down enough to apply much leverage to the bolt/eyelet.

William
Sent from my iPhone

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[Theodor Rzad]

" IMHO, it's better to have the caliper out of the way, and/or to avoid carrying rear panniers." 100% agree. 

I made this decision early in the design phase of my Falconer, so by the time I committed to using discs, I knew the Klampers wouldn't conflict. They are as bulky as they are great feeling and well-made. A small hydro caliper directly-mounted to the top of the chainstay would have been a great solution had I wanted a rear rack, though since I was planning a custom, Cameron could have simply brazed a boss up the seatstay a bit to clear any caliper.

Ted 'full frontal (loading)" Rzad

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[Albert Steward]

Stock TRP pads are awful - recommend swapping them for just about anything else. Really like my Spyres with compression-less brake housing. No complaints. 

[mitch....@gmail.com]

On Friday, August 17, 2018 at 10:39:11 PM UTC-6, Albert Steward wrote:

Stock TRP pads are awful - recommend swapping them for just about anything else. Really like my Spyres with compression-less brake housing. No complaints. 

This may be condition specific because I've had no complaints about stock TRP pads on three bikes' worth (two Hy/Rds and one Hylex) riding dry conditions. 

--Mitch

in Utah

[Mat Grewe]

Thanks for the insight on the brake rubbing folks.  Does anyone have experience, good or bad, running non-aero levers with Klampers, or disc brakes in general for that matter?

[William Henderson]

I use these, modulation is great, no issues.

https://www.trpcycling.com/product/rrl-sr/

William

On Aug 22, 2018, at 9:47 AM, Mat Grewe <matg...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks for the insight on the brake rubbing folks.  Does anyone have experience, good or bad, running non-aero levers with Klampers, or disc brakes in general for that matter?

[Mat Grewe]

Hey, those would be considered "Aero" levers, they just don't have the shifting mechanism built in.  Non-aero levers are the ones with the cables sticking out the top.  In my experience (on rim brakes), they have a different feel while braking, but my limited disc brake use has been with only mountain bike style levers so this is still helpful to know...

[mitch....@gmail.com]

Non-aero plus discs: I use Modolo Professional non-aero levers with TRP Hy/Rds with good results. Not too much lever travel, strong braking with low hand pressure. Jagwire compressionless housing. The Modolos have about the same cable pull as the other non-aero levers I use on various other rimbrake bikes (Mafac Comp, Campagnolo Record, SunTour Superbe) so I guess they’d feel about the same as the Modolos with Hy/Rd too.

As I understand it, non-aero levers generally pull more cable per amount of lever travel. This means less mechanical advantage and means they can feel less powerful with some rim brakes than aero levers designed with more mech adv (pulling less cable per mm lever movement). However, since some mechanical discs are designed for more cable travel (with flat bar levers) than most aero levers have, non-aero levers can therefore be an advantage (less lever travel per mm cable pull so no bottoming out). This seems to be not a big issue with the TRP Hy/Rds either way because I also maintain a bike using Ergo 10 levers with Hy/Rds—they work well too and don’t bottom out despite the high mech adv low cable travel design of the Ergo levers.
This may have mainly been an issue with common Avid mechanical discs people started using with drop bar levers though the Avids were designed for higher cable pull mtb levers. In either case, Paul’s makes two actuating arms for different amounts of cable pull and mech adv, so you match the right Paul’s arm to your lever. I’d guess the Paul’s short arm is correct for all drop bar levers, aero or non-.

—Mitch
in Utah

[satanas]

Paul now make three (3) different actuating arms for their Klampers:

1. Long pull, to suit V-brake levers
2. Road, to suit current Shimano road levers (STI, from 7900 onwards)
3. Campagnolo, to suit Ergo levers, and road levers generally; most pull less cable than Shimano 7900 et al

They can be bought as spares and swapped as needed.

Later,
Stephen

[Dan Vee]

Is White really releasing a new lmds rear der?

[mitch....@gmail.com]

Haven’t had problems with the stock TRP pads but my experience may not count since I’ve only used a few disc setups and most of my disc riding has been on stock TRP pads. Maybe I’m missing out on better pad performance.

What’s terrible about the TRP pads? (Your comment is not the first time I’ve read this about TRP pads.) I ride in mostly dry conditions and my pads have not been wet yet, in case it’s wet performance where TRP pads suffer.

Thanks,
Mitch
in Utah

[Sukho Goff]

The only disc brakes I've ever used are the Spyres with the stock TRP pads. I've used them for two years in daily wet Portland bike commutes and also on bunches of long/wet logging roads on weekends. Both the calipers and pads work well for me; but I'm not really chasing the most awesomest disc brake dragon (yet) so, I don't know..so far so good I guess. BTW yes I have tried hydraulic brakes and for sure they are superior, but sheesh my brakes work fine LOL.

Sukho in PDX

[Theodor Rzad]

Hi Dan

I have no insider info; my mention of it is from a conversation I had with the WI folks at the last NAHBS in Sacramento (2016?). They mentioned it was a maybe kind of thing.

Ted