Off topic - Snowqualmie Pass tire actual width?

[Mark Guglielmana]

It's a 700c tire, but figured some of you might know the answer. I just mounted a Snowqualmie Pass 700c x 44 tire to a Velocity Dyad rim, it measures 36mm wide. I didn't have a rim strip, I was using the wheel for a frame build fit check, so only had about 10psi in it. Wrong rim? Just get a rim strip and air it up?

[Bob Lovejoy]

I have not actually ridden mine but have them mounted (for a few days now)...  41.3mm wide at about 60psi(?) on Velocity Atlas rims.  I am no expert but I would think the Dyad would work fine.

Hope that helps!

Bob

[Daniel Jackson]

They are definitely under spec. I too have mine on an Atlas and they measure only 40 at about 35 PSI. I can't imagine a Dyad being that different.

[Justin Hughes]

That doesn't seem to be in line with other Compass tires. You're not compressing the tire with the caliper at all right? Either way, measuring at 10psi isn't particularly useful since that tire will never be run that low, especially on those rims (not wide, not tubeless ready). 

Tire width variance, in my experience, comes down to the INNER width of the rim and, to a lesser degree, whether one is running tubes or not. I also think that the same tire may measure wider on a disc rim with the same inner width as it seems that since there is less material (no brake track) the forces of the tire bead and psi actually push the walls of the rim outward. 

For instance, 48-584 labeled Switchback Hills measure 47mm on 18mm inner rim brake rims (PL23) and 51.5mm on 26.6mm inner disc rims (Blunt SS). 

These wide tires (yes, even 42-584) really shine and reach their potential on wide (22mm inner or greater) rims. And wide rims with rim brakes require careful consideration regarding brake setup and post (if canti or V) placement. What I'm saying is that, at this point, discs win for the use of wide tires. 

Wrong rim? Well, it's definitely not optimal. 

Justin

[Mark Guglielmana]

Definitely not pinching with the calipers. I was using the wheel for frame alignment/clearance  check on a frame I'm building with 135mm rear spacing. The wheel I had with 135mm also had the same rim it'l be running (Dyad). I didn't have a rim tape to use, so just wanted to inflate slightly. I'll puta proper rim tape in, pump it and check again. Dyad inner width is 18.6mm per spec. 

I'm reconsidering the rim choice now. It's a 700c bike with rim brakes and a Rohloff hub. Any suggestions? Atlas is only 1mm wider, and heavy.

On Thu, Oct 27, 2016 at 7:21 AM, Justin Hughes <justin...@me.com> wrote:

That doesn't seem to be in line with other Compass tires. You're not compressing the tire with the caliper at all right? Either way, measuring at 10psi isn't particularly useful since that tire will never be run that low, especially on those rims (not wide, not tubeless ready). 

Tire width variance, in my experience, comes down to the INNER width of the rim and, to a lesser degree, whether one is running tubes or not. I also think that the same tire may measure wider on a disc rim with the same inner width as it seems that since there is less material (no brake track) the forces of the tire bead and psi actually push the walls of the rim outward. 

For instance, 48-584 labeled Switchback Hills measure 47mm on 18mm inner rim brake rims (PL23) and 51.5mm on 26.6mm inner disc rims (Blunt SS). 

These wide tires (yes, even 42-584) really shine and reach their potential on wide (22mm inner or greater) rims. And wide rims with rim brakes require careful consideration regarding brake setup and post (if canti or V) placement. What I'm saying is that, at this point, discs win for the use of wide tires. 

Justin

On Wednesday, October 26, 2016 at 11:07:21 PM UTC-4, Mark Guglielmana wrote:

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Mark Guglielmana

[Justin Hughes]

I probably would have spec'd disc brakes, honestly. But, since that ship has sailed I would look to:

Pacenti Forza (and OC rear): 24.0/i20.0, 456g. Never built up a Rohloff so not sure if the OC rear is of any benefit. 

Velocity Quill: 24.5/i21.1, 415g (not sure if these actually exist in the wild)

However, maybe those rims aren't up to task. Generally the use of a Rohloff indicates an intended use that might be best suited to a beefy rim. I'm all about shaving weight (especially at the outer part of a wheel), but it is, after all, a decidedly not weight conscious hub. Hell, the thing weighs as much as a stout 700c wheelset! With a dynamo front hub! But, hey, if you're touring Africa unsupported it makes some sense. But, then so does a beefy rim.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

In my mind, you really don't want a rim wider than 25mm or so for rim brakes (unless the bike was designed specifically with a wider rim brake rim in mind) and that maxes out your all important inner width to about 20mm. Again, just not optimal for fat rubber. Works fine, just better choices out there in my opinion.

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Mark Guglielmana

[mitch....@gmail.com]

On Thursday, October 27, 2016 at 9:32:31 AM UTC-6, Justin Hughes wrote:

I probably would have spec'd disc brakes, honestly. But, since that ship has sailed I would look to:

Pacenti Forza (and OC rear): 24.0/i20.0, 456g. Never built up a Rohloff so not sure if the OC rear is of any benefit. 

Velocity Quill: 24.5/i21.1, 415g (not sure if these actually exist in the wild)

However, maybe those rims aren't up to task. Generally the use of a Rohloff indicates an intended use that might be best suited to a beefy rim. I'm all about shaving weight (especially at the outer part of a wheel), but it is, after all, a decidedly not weight conscious hub. Hell, the thing weighs as much as a stout 700c wheelset! With a dynamo front hub! But, hey, if you're touring Africa unsupported it makes some sense. But, then so does a beefy rim.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

In my mind, you really don't want a rim wider than 25mm or so for rim brakes (unless the bike was designed specifically with a wider rim brake rim in mind) and that maxes out your all important inner width to about 20mm. Again, just not optimal for fat rubber. Works fine, just better choices out there in my opinion.

Mark, if your frame's brake post position will accommodate a wider rim consider the Velocity Cliffhanger at 30mm outer 25mm inner width that will give you some of the wide disk rim advantages Justin describes. Only drawback is weight but many Dually and P35/Blunt 35 fans are finding they're ok with heavier rims for the advantages of tire shape and performance. 

http://www.velocityusa.com/product/rims/cliff-hanger-622

--Mitch

[Justin Hughes]

To be fair, the Blunt 35/P35 rims aren't a good comparison to the Cliff Hanger rim. The Blunt SS is closer with a 26.6mm inner and 30mm outer, but it weighs 250g less than the Cliff Hanger. Likely not as robust, but you can find a disc rim as strong at much less weight than 675g. 

[Mark Guglielmana]

Justin,

Customer has two Rivendells, so you know how that brake saga goes. The only reason I'm building this frame (Rohloff hub) is that Grant didn't want to. It even has a diagatube (he's 6'6"), which I talked myself into being ok since he gets a water bottle at a better to reach position. 

I hear you about weight and strength, but a 36 hole dishless Dyad with 135 spacing is pretty damn strong. 

Mitch,

As far as rim brakes, right now it has none, the plan is centerpull posts and RAID or Compass centerpulls. I've done several of these with 25mm wide rims. I'll do some investigation on using them with 30mm Cliffhangers. Any experience with that 30mm wide rims and RAIDs?

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[Justin Hughes]

Gotcha. I agree that a 36h dishless Dyad should be plenty stout for most applications where denting (off road, roots, etc) isn't a big concern. You're limited with a 36h hub. There are few options beyond Velocity. Sun RhynoLite 36h is one at 27.5/i22mm, 670g. The Velocity Quill at i21.1, 36h and 415g is certainly an attractive option, but I'm still not sure if they are vaporware or not. And I think any of the wider options are likely only available in black. 

No experience with any centerpulls and rims wider than 23mm outer, but with the further spaced posts of a Raid your chances of getting satisfactory braking is theoretically better. Maybe you could place a 2.5mm shim on both sides of a 25mm rim on a Raid equipped bike and see what you can discern. Looking forward to hearing what you figure out. 

[Alex Wetmore]

36 hole Rohloff?  32 hole is the default and much more common, 36 hole ones are generally used for tandem applications.  

Since this doesn't sound like a light bike I'd probably just use a 700C x 36 Sun Rhyno Lite.  They are cheap, durable, build up nicely, look nice, and have an internal width of around 23mm.  The weight penalty for a Sun Rhyno Lite compared to a good light disk rim (like WTB KOM i23) is about 100 grams.

alex

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From: 65...@googlegroups.com <65...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Justin Hughes <justin...@me.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2016 9:35:06 AM
To: 650b
Cc: justin...@me.com
Subject: Re: [650B] Re: Off topic - Snowqualmie Pass tire actual width?

 

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[Justin Hughes]

Hmm. I think the weight difference between a RhynoLite and a WTB KOM i23 is 200-240g depending on which version (older or current) KOM rim you choose. That's a full pound on a set of wheels. Disc brakes themselves add weight, but a good bit is earned back with disc only rims. 

[Alex Wetmore]

I'll weigh both when I'm at home, the manufacturer weights have been off by a lot for both WTB and Sun rims for me.  

The Sun Rhyno Lite is a much more robust rim with 2 internal webs.  It's closest in profile to the WTB LaserDisc i23 (so perhaps I should have used that as my comparison), and manufacturer weights are closer there (570g vs 630g).  There are very few choices in 36 hole, which is primarily why the Sun RL jumped to mind.  Anyone building a 36 hole Rohloff must already be looking for as much robustness as possible, which also leads to that recommendation.  Most tandem teams using Rohloffs are using the 32 hole version.

alex

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From: 65...@googlegroups.com <65...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Justin Hughes <justin...@me.com>

Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2016 9:45:45 AM
To: 650b

[Scott Stulken]

I'll bet they come up much closer to the nominal width once you do that.  I've noticed a few mm of "growth" with just about any decent tire between the initial low-psi mount/check and the full inflation.  It doesn't even look like the beads have popped into place yet in your first picture.  ;^)

- Scott

[Justin Hughes]

Gotcha. The only WTB rims I've weighed was a single i45 Scraper before building up. It was 713g versus 695g per manufacturer. I'm guessing manufacturers list their weights as an average before they apply stickers. Not sure what a bunch of rim stickers weigh, but I generally remove them for aesthetic purposes. 

I was comparing a manufacturer given weight of 670g for the RhinoLite, FWIW. 

[Mark Guglielmana]

Justin said:

Gotcha. I agree that a 36h dishless Dyad should be plenty stout for most applications where denting (off road, roots, etc) isn't a big concern. You're limited with a 36h hub. There are few options beyond Velocity. Sun RhynoLite 36h is one at 27.5/i22mm, 670g. The Velocity Quill at i21.1, 36h and 415g is certainly an attractive option, but I'm still not sure if they are vaporware or not. And I think any of the wider options are likely only available in black. 

No experience with any centerpulls and rims wider than 23mm outer, but with the further spaced posts of a Raid your chances of getting satisfactory braking is theoretically better. Maybe you could place a 2.5mm shim on both sides of a 25mm rim on a Raid equipped bike and see what you can discern. Looking forward to hearing what you figure out.

___________________

Your comment about denting got me thinking, but not about denting. I'm thinking of pinch flats. The rounder the tire, the more likely to get one, IMO. If the tire is closer to a U shape (which you'd get with a wider rim), less likely to have those nasty pinches. Thoughts?

On Thursday, October 27, 2016 at 9:37:54 AM UTC-7, Alex Wetmore wrote:

36 hole Rohloff?  32 hole is the default and much more common, 36 hole ones are generally used for tandem applications.  

Since this doesn't sound like a light bike I'd probably just use a 700C x 36 Sun Rhyno Lite.  They are cheap, durable, build up nicely, look nice, and have an internal width of around 23mm.  The weight penalty for a Sun Rhyno Lite compared to a good light disk rim (like WTB KOM i23) is about 100 grams.

alex

_______________

Alex, thanks for the insights. Keep in mind that the customer has a lot of Rivendellian blood in him, and is 6'6", runs about 225 and wants to be able to carry lots of stuff. I've talked him into the benefits of front loading, so we're planing on 40mm of trail. I know that's not very low, but with this guy, it's baby steps.  Of course that somewhat negates the need for a stiff main triangle and beefy rear wheel, but nothing succeeds like excess, right? ;-)

That Rhyno Lite rim sounds like it could be the ticket. Wider ID would definitely help the tire width issue. I'll order one, mount a tire, and see how much. 

BTW, here's the frame build status. My kids steal my water bottles, forgive the mismash of bottles and cages:

[Mark Guglielmana]

On Thursday, October 27, 2016 at 9:55:41 AM UTC-7, Scott Stulken wrote:

I'll bet they come up much closer to the nominal width once you do that.  I've noticed a few mm of "growth" with just about any decent tire between the initial low-psi mount/check and the full inflation.  It doesn't even look like the beads have popped into place yet in your first picture. 

And I bet you're correct there. This tire/wheel combo is easy on/off.  I'll get a rim strip and pump it up to pop the beads in and remeasure. 

[Randall Daniels]

I'm doubtful it will get to listed size. My experience with Compass Tires is that they are always 5-10% undersized. Usually then get within 5% after a few hundred miles but don't ever get to listed size. Grand Bois tires (same rims) are at or slightly above spec, consistently.

Same thing tire manufacturers have always done. Make a tire smaller than list to save on weight specs.

-Randy in Atlanta

[Jambi Ganbar]

They measured about 42mm on my Pacenti SL25 at roughly 35 psi.

Jambi

http://nomusic.net

On Thu, Oct 27, 2016 at 12:50 PM, Daniel Jackson <daniel.se...@gmail.com> wrote:

They are definitely under spec. I too have mine on an Atlas and they measure only 40 at about 35 PSI. I can't imagine a Dyad being that different.

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[mitch....@gmail.com]

On Thursday, October 27, 2016 at 10:13:42 AM UTC-6, Justin Hughes wrote:

To be fair, the Blunt 35/P35 rims aren't a good comparison to the Cliff Hanger rim. The Blunt SS is closer with a 26.6mm inner and 30mm outer, but it weighs 250g less than the Cliff Hanger.

True, the BluntSS is a lightweight which is why I mentioned the Blunt35, which weighs almost 600g in 622 size. The Cliffhanger is obviously not as wide at 30mm outerD but is about as wide as you can go in a rim-brake rim. Assuming brake set up works, it may be worth it to get those wide-rim advantages. Like you say, disc rims are far better for this but the Cliffhanger gets you there with a brake track.

It sound like these are not priorities for Mark's customer. 

--Mitch 

[Alex Wetmore]

It's not that simple.  Panaracer seems to be all over the place on their widths, and makes the tires for both Compass and Grand Bois.  They don't seem to have a good model for how well the casing will stretch.  Panaracer branded tires can also vary heavily from the listed width, for instance the kevlar belted Paselas seem to run slightly smaller than the normal Pasela because the casing doesn't stretch as much.

The best evidence that they can't figure it out is that the Rat Trap Pass tires are way under their listed width, while the Switchback Hill tires often run at or slightly above their listed widths.  Both were designed and released at about the same time and are very similar tires.

alex

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From: 65...@googlegroups.com <65...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Randall Daniels <randal...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2016 10:49:49 AM
To: 650b
Subject: [650B] Re: Off topic - Snowqualmie Pass tire actual width?

 

I'm doubtful it will get to listed size. My experience with Compass Tires is that they are always 5-10% undersized. Usually then get within 5% after a few hundred miles but don't ever get to listed size. Grand Bois tires (same rims) are at or slightly above spec, consistently.

Same thing tire manufacturers have always done. Make a tire smaller than list to save on weight specs.

-Randy in Atlanta

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[Justin Hughes]

Mark,

I honestly have only had a couple of pinch flats ever. So, I don't have the experience to comment on them. I ride over a lot of nasty pot holes when I can't avoid them. Your customer might ask for his money back if you propose running them tubeless, but that's what I'd do. ;)

Justin

[Mark Guglielmana]

I know this guy pretty well, he'll run with tubes. 

My experience this year may have been outliers, but trying to balance lower air pressure for better gravel performance vs enough air pressure to avoid pinch flats has been a challenge for me, and got me wondering about rim width as part of the equation.

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[Fred Blasdel]

On Thu, Oct 27, 2016 at 10:49 AM, Randall Daniels <randal...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm doubtful it will get to listed size. My experience with Compass Tires is that they are always 5-10% undersized. Usually then get within 5% after a few hundred miles but don't ever get to listed size. Grand Bois tires (same rims) are at or slightly above spec, consistently.

Same thing tire manufacturers have always done. Make a tire smaller than list to save on weight specs.

In this case the explanation is much stupider than that

When Jan imported tires designed by Gran Bois, he relabeled them with numbers closer to their actual dimensions instead of what's molded into the sidewall: https://janheine.wordpress.com/2011/01/20/tire-sizes/

But for the Compass tires he'd generally already announced the size first and stuck by the labels, hence all the bullshit about how everyone else must be "squeezing the sidewalls with their calipers"

It stings that the Compass offerings have run small rather than large, many of them way under on normal road rims. Jan will admit that the 2.3" RTP is <52mm, but the 1.25" Elk Pass is also really a 28mm. Babyshoes are a full size smaller than Hetres, and Barlows are only a hair bigger than Bon Jons.

To answer the original question, the new Snoqualmie Pass 44 is comparable to a G-One 38: https://www.instagram.com/p/BKd8b_sgBkY/

[Chris Cullum]

On Oct 27, 2016 12:16, "Fred Blasdel" <blas...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Oct 27, 2016 at 10:49 AM, Randall Daniels <randal...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I'm doubtful it will get to listed size. My experience with Compass Tires is that they are always 5-10% undersized. Usually then get within 5% after a few hundred miles but don't ever get to listed size. Grand Bois tires (same rims) are at or slightly above spec, consistently.
>>
>> Same thing tire manufacturers have always done. Make a tire smaller than list to save on weight specs.
>
>
> In this case the explanation is much stupider than that
>
> When Jan imported tires designed by Gran Bois, he relabeled them with numbers closer to their actual dimensions instead of what's molded into the sidewall: https://janheine.wordpress.com/2011/01/20/tire-sizes/
>
> But for the Compass tires he'd generally already announced the size first and stuck by the labels, hence all the bullshit about how everyone else must be "squeezing the sidewalls with their calipers"
>
> It stings that the Compass offerings have run small rather than large, many of them way under on normal road rims. Jan will admit that the 2.3" RTP is <52mm, but the 1.25" Elk Pass is also really a 28mm. Babyshoes are a full size smaller than Hetres,

I agree with some of your assessments but I just measured BSP tires vs Hetres and they were with 0.5mm of aech other on the same rim, a Pacenti SL25. BSP around 41mm. The Hetre was a bit newer and was 40.5mm.

and Barlows are only a hair bigger than Bon Jons.
>
> To answer the original question, the new Snoqualmie Pass 44 is comparable to a G-One 38: https://www.instagram.com/p/BKd8b_sgBkY/
>

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[Daniel Jackson]

No one tells it like it is better than Fred!

[Mark Guglielmana]

+1

On Thu, Oct 27, 2016 at 1:32 PM, Daniel Jackson <daniel.se...@gmail.com> wrote:

 No one tells it like it is better than Fred!

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[Scott Stulken]

Furthering the OT, has anyone tried the 26"x1.8" Naches Pass yet?  My daily driver wears 26"x1.75" (42-559) Paselas, and I'm thinking of upgrading to those once these tires wear out.  And now, of course, I'm curious how they measure up in real life.

Thanks,

- Scott

On Thursday, October 27, 2016 at 3:52:54 PM UTC-5, Mark Guglielmana wrote:

+1

On Thu, Oct 27, 2016 at 1:32 PM, Daniel Jackson <daniel.se...@gmail.com> wrote:

 No one tells it like it is better than Fred!

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Mark Guglielmana

[Jan Heine]

There isn't a huge conspiracy about mis-labeling tires. And by now, Panaracer has plenty of experience how to make wide, supple tires. Compass tires came out pretty much as expected. The explanation why tires vary from their labeled size are much simpler. Tire size depends on a multitude of factors:

- rim width

- tire pressure

- mileage (most tires grow as they get ridden)

- whether you mount them tubeless

- casing material, with more supple casings stretching a bit more. So a Compass Extralight typically is a tad wider than the Standard casing.

- where on the tire you measure. It's rubber, not a precision-machined piece of metal!

- variation within one production run (small) and from one run to the next (a bit larger)

- even the temperature, with rubber actually contracting as it gets hotter.

That is how you get different people measuring the same tire models and getting different sizes. The Snoqualmie Pass 700 x 44 mm tires that measured 36 mm clearly weren't seated correctly (the molded line didn't show above the rim), but others report anywhere from 40 to 42 mm for brand-new tires. I got 42 mm on the standard version with tubes. If you mount the Extralight tubeless, you'll probably get 44 mm.

Just as an example, my Rat Trap Pass Extralight measured 52 mm on my Firefly when mounted with tubes, and 54 mm when mounted tubeless. The labeled size is 54 mm. The Switchback Hill is 48 mm with tubes and 50 mm tubeless. If I were to make a new mold, I'd call them a 50 mm tire, rather than 48. But even so, it's within 4% of the labeled size.

There is a simple reason why tires usually are narrower, rather than wider, than the label says: If somebody buys a tire that is wider than advertised, it may rub on the frame. That is a real problem. On the other hand, if a 54 mm tire really is 2 mm narrower than expected, you'll never notice until you measure them with a caliper. The Switchback Hill being 2 mm wider when you run them tubeless hopefully isn't a big deal: If your bike has clearance for that large a tire, you probably have a little extra room.

As Fred noted, we used to list Grand Bois tires with their "actual" sizes. We stopped doing that, because people were confused when they received their tires. We got quite a few returns "You sent me the wrong tire" when people ordered Grand Bois 700 x 32 mm tires, but the actual tire they received was labeled 700 x 30 mm. So we list tires by the sizes that is on the sidewall, and hope that customers will understand that there is some variation to that size.

I wonder if anybody has measured their car tires to see whether their 185 mm tires really measure 185 mm, and not 179 or 192 mm... I know I haven't measured mine! Among all the factors that affect how your tires ride (both bike and car), a few percent in width are relatively minor.

Jan Heine

Compass Cycles

www.compasscycle.com

[Nick Favicchio]

I just double checked in the garage... my RTPs say 58 x 559. Not 54.

?

[fra...@tarremah.tas.edu.au]

Hi clever folk.

Can someone who has a set of Snowqualmie Pass tyres and access to someone with a Ritchey Swiss Cross please let me know if the two will play nicely together?  I'd appreciate it very much.

(I have Barlows that need replacing ... and it's an expensive game getting incompatible things sent out to Tasmania)

Many thanks.  Frank

[Justin Hughes]

Pretty sure Jan wrote somewhere that this was Panaracer's mistake. They changed the mold after the "54-559 " text had been approved or something like that. 

[Mark Guglielmana]

Update: The bike is finally getting built up by the guy I built the frame for. He reports that the width measures 42mm with proper inflation. This is pretty dang close to the advertised 44mm advertised width, and I'd bet that a few hundred miles of riding on them will easily stretch them to 44. If you're spec'ing a wheelset for a frame, and clearance might be an issue, you want to know that "stretched" width.

I'm calling this tire "as advertised".

[Igor Belopolsky]

Is there a final frame/fork/paint photo?

[Mark Guglielmana]

It's going in to Ed Litton's shop next week.

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Mark Guglielmana