What 650b/584 rims are in production that are not disc only?

[satanas]

It would IMHO be useful to compile a list, and info could include brand, model, weight, internal width, available drillings, price, and international availability (if any).

As far as I know, there are only two (2) lightweight 650b rim brake rims in existence:

1. HED Belgium+, 430 grams, ~i21, 28/32°, $165USD(!), available only from RH so effectively North America only given freight costs

2. Pacenti Brevet, 435 grams, ~i19, 28/32/36°, $80USD, RH only(?)

Velocity also allegedly make a number of rims of which some may actually be available. The Synergy (standard and OC) seems to get only bad reviews. Velocity rarely update their website to reflect reality, and non-US availability seems sketchy.

Grams Bois may also have something, but AFAIK that's about it. Anything else out there?

There are a huge number of disc-only rims in alu, carbon, etc, but if one wants a flexible fork these aren't going to help.

Later,
Stephen

[Will Vautrain]

Pacenti distributes fairly widely at least within the US. They also recently launched a UK website, not sure about more widely in the EU.

If you include rims sold as “27.5” there are a lot of rims out there. Most in black.

I’d like to find a silver disc rim in 28 and 32h.

[Stephen Poole]

27.5 = MTB = disc, so very unlikely to be rim brake compatible.

As for Pacenti, shipping ex-US is prohibitive; online retail European availability might help, wholesale only, no.

AFAIK, there are exactly zero silver disc-only rims, in any size, though I suppose Velocity could do them.

[Will Vautrain]

Oh yeah, probably few if any rim brake compatible 27.5 rims.

I believe the Pacenti UK website is specifically for retail sales. It’s basically a mirror of their US website.

[Will Vautrain]

https://pacenticycledesign.co.uk/

[David Parsons]

On Friday, June 21, 2019 at 10:26:24 AM UTC-7, satanas wrote:

It would IMHO be useful to compile a list, and info could include brand, model, weight, internal width, available drillings, price, and international availability (if any).

As far as I know, there are only two (2) lightweight 650b rim brake rims in existence:

 

What is your cutoff for lightweight?  500gm or lower?   The Weinmann Zac19 comes in at 480 grams (measured; I've got a bunch of those rims in my strategic 650b rim reserve.    Velocity has the A23 @ 425 grams (though it's got a /super/ narrow brake track and I will only use parallel push v-brakes with them) & Quill @ 440 grams.

-david parsons

[Michael J.]

Velocity has quite a few options: Cliffhangers, A23s, Dyads, Quills, etc. Probably even more..

[Stephen Poole]

@ Will: I note that UK Pacenti Brevet prices are considerably more than in the USA, and that they're claimed to weigh 435g +/- 15g, so let's say 450g minimum.

@ David: I can only see US sources for the Zac19 rims and ryde.nl says the 622 version weighs 575g, so ~539g for 584...

Now that Velocity is in the US, I can only get a very limited selection of rims, almost nothing in 650b or 27.5 (MTB); again freight ex-US is silly. The Oz importer also has one of the world's worst websites, so it's almost impossible to find anything out without ringing them, but they only show Synergy & OC, and Blunt SS from Velocity, plus the Alex DM-18 @ 520g.

So, literally the only rim brake 650b rims currently available in Oz are the Synergy, which everyone seems to think is crap in 584 (559 seemed to be okay), or else the 520g Alex.

The only place anything else Velocity might be had is the US, so unless you live there - I do not - they exist only in theory. :-(

Bike24 only shows the Andra 40 @ 850g, and there's nothing from bike-components.de, starbike.com or Wiggle, but CRC have this, whatever it is (no info) in 24/28°:

https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/mobile/easton-circuit-road-rim/rp-prod176630

xxcycle.com have this, no weight mentioned:

https://www.xxcycle.com/rim-ambrosio-keba-650b-silver-confreriale,,en.php

SJSC have a few Thorn rims black or silver, machined or plain sidewalls, all 32°/~480g, for instance:

https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/rims-tape/32-thorn-275-650b-584-rim-w-cnc-sidewall-black/

That seems to be it...

Later,

Stephen

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[Will Vautrain]

I haven’t shopped around the Pacenti UK website since I’m in the US, but every UK website I’ve ever shopped listed prices including VAT, so that’s probably the issue.

[satanas]

^ There may well be freight from the US too...

[Will Vautrain]

Sounds like they’re actually operating in the UK, including actually building wheels there.

https://mailchi.mp/pacenticycledesign/uk-website-goes-live?

[William Lindsay]

Please make sure to repeat this list weekly, since availability may change over time.  Please update daily if pricing information changes.  :)

I won't tolerate stale or out-of-date information. :)

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

On Friday, June 21, 2019 at 10:26:24 AM UTC-7, satanas wrote:

[Peter Oberbreckling]

Soma Weymouth and Velo Orange Diagonale are options (albeit heavier).

[Stephen Poole]

Soma has an "El Nino" rim as well as the Weymouth, same width, hard anodized, not machined - these might be rebadged Zac19 rims going by the weight (540g) - anyone know? They also list an Araya TX-310F (520g, i17) also from cyclesgrandbois.com, who have a few of their own rims listed in a table here:

https://cyclesgrandbois.com/SHOP/gb_r_b.html

The VO Diagonale is currently reduced, 550g e25mm.

There are more choices than I'd thought, but still none I can get shipped for a reasonable price. (Sigh.)

Later,

Stephen

[MNF]

Perhaps you could roll down some 700c rims to 584 - like Keith Bontrager used to do with Mavic MA2's for 26" Mtn. bikes ?

Regards,

MF in SF

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[Stephen Poole]

Keith started with 40° 622 MA40s and ended up with 36° 559 rims, which works out to 559.8, close enough. For 622 to 584 the multiplier needs to be 584/622 which doesn't work out evenly from normal rim drillings; 36->34, 32->30, 28->26... :-(

[Ian A]

It's not much better here in the north of Canada. I'd be delighted with even a supply of Alex DM18 or similar. Shipping from the US to Canada on the few available options is also very costly.

SJS Cycles in the UK carry their house brand (Thorn) version of a 584 brake track rim.

Is the Synergy really a bad rim? It earned an unfortunate reputation for failures on their off centre drilling version (Synergy OC),but the regular version seems fine. It's entirely possible the OC version has been re-engineered by now. Maybe some who knows more will clarify.

I have a regular and OC Synergy in use, they are perfectly good, but they haven't seen much abuse.

IanA Alberta Canada

[Nick Payne]

Velo-Orange still have their Diagonale rim, but it's a touring rim that weighs about 600g: https://velo-orange.com/collections/rims/products/vo-diagonale-650b-rims.

There's also the Grand Bois Papillon, one of the very few double-eyelet rims still made: https://cyclesgrandbois.com/SHOP/gb_r_b_pw.html. ACycles in the UK sell these as well: https://www.acycles.co.uk/grand-bois-papillon-rim-11233.html.

I've purchased from all three of these places in the past and had stuff shipped to Australia without problem.

Nick

[Will Vautrain]

I have a Synergy/Synergy OC set in use, too, though currently only using the OC on the stationary trainer. I might use it to build up a bike for my wife. Seems like a decent enough rim, but like you, I’m not exposing it to any real abuse.

[Jim Bronson]

I have experienced blowoffs at speed on the Soma Weymouth.  They're rated to take 75psi but I won't go any more than 55psi on them anymore.  I haven't had the problem at 55psi thankfully.

I also cracked the rim at the spoke bed in my rear Weymouth, but then again I'm around 300 these days.  Fatherhood has not been kind to my waistline.  I replaced it with a Pacenti gen-2 PL23.  I didn't think it would last too long but so far I'm about 2 years into it and no cracks yet.

Speaking of Velocity, I have a 650B Atlas on a rear tire that was previously Synergy, that I also cracked on the spoke bed, but back when I only weighed 260 or so.  Don't know if they still make the Atlas in 650b but it's a nice rim albeit heavier than the Synergy and with the same mounting issues - have to be careful to get the tire mounted straight.

Otherwise, it's kind of a sad state of affairs in 650B - I like the bikes that I have but I could see being forced into buying a disc brake 650b bike just to have rims available.  Sigh.....

-Jim

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[David Parsons]

On Friday, June 21, 2019 at 1:32:36 PM UTC-7, satanas wrote:

 

@ David: I can only see US sources for the Zac19 rims and ryde.nl says the 622 version weighs 575g, so ~539g for 584...

   They may be conservative in what they say about the rim weight; I just know that I weighed some of the Zac19s I bought a few years ago and they all came out at ~480 grams.

   Have you tried asking some of the online stores if they can special order the rims for you?  I do see Velocity being sold by some UK shops, so they might be able to add a few Quills or A23s onto one of their regular orders.

   The Synergy is fine, if not tubelessable without doing some pretty heroic efforts.

   -david parsons

[Murray Watson]

If it’s of any help I’ve bought Pacenti Brevets twice through the Pacenti website and postage was free to Australia both times. On the second occasion because I was also making the most of the rim amnesty it was $85usd a pair with free postage. Pretty reasonable I reckon!
Alex DM18 are also easily available in Aus, but 36h only I believe :(

Murray Watson, Melbourne - Australia

[satanas]

Thanks Murray, that's very helpful! Pacenti do indeed seem to offer free shipping to Oz - I just did a trial run - but have only 28 & 36° in stock right now, no 32°. I'll check back later in the year, but will probably order both 28 & 32° as insurance against my v1 PL23s cracking, plus some spares. (And the Brevets are supposed to be much easier to fit tyres to, which would certainly help.)

If the Synergy is actually okay that might be the easiest solution as it should be possible to order them from the Oz wholesaler, assuming they have stock.

@ Nick: Were the shipping costs to Oz reasonable for the rims you mentioned?

Later,
Stephen (who's heading north from Amsterdam towards Denmark in a few hours)

[Scott D]

I have Grand Bois Papillon Classic Polished Silver Double Walled Rims in stock 32 Holes, only. 

Price is $75 each plus shipping.  If anyone is interested, I will also be placing a tire order on Monday.

Here's a link to the rims:

https://cyclesgrandbois.com/SHOP/gb_r_b_pw.html

Scott Davis Minneapolis, Minnesota USA

On Friday, June 21, 2019 at 12:26:24 PM UTC-5, satanas wrote:

[Mitch Harris]

On Saturday, June 22, 2019 at 12:13:16 AM UTC-6, satanas wrote:

...If the Synergy is actually okay that might be the easiest solution as it should be possible to order them from the Oz wholesaler, assuming they have stock...

The issue with the Synergy rim as I understand it, is the deep well design that can make it difficult to seat the bead where it's supposed to be. To seat tires on my Synergy wheetset I had to use all the soapy water tricks, the spray bottle tricks, the put-in-too-much-pressure then hope they finally pop into place trick, and all the rest. Supple tires only make it more difficult since they don't have a stiff molded shape to direct them. Once tires are seated the rims ride great but you dread having a flat or replacing tires and doing it all again, and I swore off the Synergy.

This has been discussed about Synergy rims a lot so I know it's not just me, but if it hasn't come up in this thread then maybe there's a solution people are using that makes it not an issue. 

The Velocity A23 does have a moderately narrow brake track, as mentioned, but I get great braking with A23, MAFAC Raids, and RH orange dot brake pads. No difficulty in set up. The A23s are pretty tight to install on but thin Stans tape made them pretty workable. 

The Zack19 seem great I have on a cheap wheelset and they didn't feel heavy as the specs mentioned here suggest. Surprise.

Really love the PL23 (blue label later production) I use on a couple bikes. Tight to install but Stans tape makes them doable enough. Expect to like the Pacenti Brevet when/if I ever have to replace the PL23s.

Easiest all around to deal with perhaps are the Grand Bois 584 rims Compass used to sell 5-6 years ago. They look the nicest, easiest set-up and install, and they built up very smoothly. Not tubeless compatible I think, but you mentioned you'd be using tubes. Compass stopped carrying them and I remember reading a reason, Jan describing something about a deep or shallow well but I don't remember having any problems with them at all. 

I'm guessing these rims are still available from GB and they ship reliably and not prohibitively to the US so perhaps even better shipping to Australia. The GB may have been mentioned already, but just in case...

Hope you're enjoying your trip,

Mitch

in Utah 

[Mitch Harris]

Ah, right. The GB rims I like are the ones Scott Davis mentioned and linked to.

Mitch

in Utah

[Stephen Poole]

Thanks Mitch. IIRC, people had problems with the Synergy cracking, both the OC and the symmetrical version. As to the PL-23, I have v1 with one layer of Stans tape and found them almost impossible to get tyres on and off, even with the VAR bead jack tyre levers; they're the tightest rims I've ever owned, though Campagnolo may be worse along with some older Wolber and Mistral rims. (I had a pair of AM sized (369bsd) Mistral rims and destroyed a tyre bead either fitting or removing a tyre from them, so refitted the much less fancy OEM Weinmann rims.)

As for the trip, yesterday afternoon I managed to get just over 80km from Amsterdam, with 66m climbing, but it wasn't easy riding into a headwind almost all the way. The Dutch are tough, and are used to this; me, not so much. It was very pretty at times though, and - apart from the wind - very pleasant. Today I've got about 18km to Den Oever, then ~40km across a dyke in the Zuider Zee; I hope it's not too windy as there's no escape. Hopefully, I'll manage to get a bit further the  yesterday!

Later,

Stephen

[Brad]

Velo Orange Diagonale -https://velo-orange.com/collections/rims/products/vo-diagonale-650b-rims

and

Ambrosio Keba ( with lobbying by the Confrerie des 650B) now called Exal. 

https://www.xxcycle.com/rim-ambrosio-keba-650b-silver-confreriale,,en.php

[Steve Palincsar]

On 6/23/19 1:28 AM, Mitch Harris wrote:

On Saturday, June 22, 2019 at 12:13:16 AM UTC-6, satanas wrote:

...If the Synergy is actually okay that might be the easiest solution as it should be possible to order them from the Oz wholesaler, assuming they have stock...

The issue with the Synergy rim

one issue, but not the only one

as I understand it, is the deep well design that can make it difficult to seat the bead where it's supposed to be. To seat tires on my Synergy wheetset I had to use all the soapy water tricks, the spray bottle tricks, the put-in-too-much-pressure then hope they finally pop into place trick, and all the rest. Supple tires only make it more difficult since they don't have a stiff molded shape to direct them. Once tires are seated the rims ride great but you dread having a flat or replacing tires and doing it all again, and I swore off the Synergy.

This has been discussed about Synergy rims a lot so I know it's not just me, but if it hasn't come up in this thread then maybe there's a solution people are using that makes it not an issue.

There was also this problem:

They may have finally fixed this problem towards the end, but by then they'd ruined the brand.

[John Hawrylak]

On Sunday, June 23, 2019 at 1:28:15 AM UTC-4, Mitch Harris wrote:

Easiest all around to deal with perhaps are the Grand Bois 584 rims Compass used to sell 5-6 years ago. They look the nicest, easiest set-up and install, and they built up very smoothly. Not tubeless compatible I think, but you mentioned you'd be using tubes. Compass stopped carrying them and I remember reading a reason, Jan describing something about a deep or shallow well but I don't remember having any problems with them at all. 

I recall about 2 years ago when the 'deep well' problem surfaced, Jan H stated  GB hd changed their design to eliminate the deep wells and the GB he was selling had the design 'fix".  So I thought he was selling GB until more recently.  He had the GB 650B on sale last, perhaps eliminating he inventory.

John Hawrylak 

Woodstown NJ

[Andrew L]

On Sunday, June 23, 2019 at 8:39:12 PM UTC+10, Brad wrote:
> Velo Orange Diagonale -https://velo-orange.com/collections/rims/products/vo-diagonale-650b-rims
> and
> Ambrosio Keba ( with lobbying by the Confrerie des 650B) now called Exal. 
>
> https://www.xxcycle.com/rim-ambrosio-keba-650b-silver-confreriale,,en.php
>

Stephen, don’t get too interested in the Keba/Exal rims. I bought a pair a few years back for my Stag. They are a bit heavy (somewhere around 580 or 590g) but build up reasonably easily and true, and tyres (in my case BSP standard casing), and mount evenly. Back then French postage was ridiculously cheap, but now it is extortionate on xxcycle’s website. They are only a pinned rim and one (my front) had a very slight step at the joint that caught on my gauge when trying, and noticeably grabs on each revolution under harder braking. With my 100kg and braking downhill from 40km/h on a path on my commute I had been noticing the front fork tips flicking back and forth about a half inch. That was on the way to work back in late Feb, and while I was putting up with it and felt under control enough, on my way home that night I was braking hard again (over a speed bump, from 38.4 according to Strava) and came off over the bars. Those who saw my ambulance selfies now congratulate me on how welll my facial scars have healed, and I can thank my helmet for saving my life, BTW. Back to the rims and forks. I need to rebuild that wheel anyway as the SP hub needs to go off for replacement bearings. I’ll try the wheel backwards first and see if it is less grabby. I’m going to first swap back and forth between my standard and Jeff Lyon forks to see the difference if any. He didn’t make me quite as light a fork as the others in the group due to my weight and this is a chance to compare flexiness. I may put the 36h Brevets I got in the amnesty a few months ago on for smoothness and weight and looks but would need another set of spokes.

I’m looking for some 32h Brevets too for another bike, and like you will need to wait till in stock at Pacenti again. It’d be nice to find someone else in Melbourne who wants some as the postage is only free over 200USD and rims are $80 each. I don’t need anything else they sell.

Andrew

[Nick Favicchio]

Pacenti Brevet and Velocity a23 are EXCELLENT and widely available. Velocity Quill is also an excellent rim but not so widely available. I've got em in 700c, not light but wide and I quite like the profile.

[earlethomas]

Light Bicycles in China will build you a 650b carbon aero wheelset with a rim brake option if you request it, for I think about 450-600. usd. 

[Scott Stulken]

Here’s a blog that attempts to keep track of what’s in production for rim brakes: https://supplelifeblog.wordpress.com/2016/11/23/650b-rimz/

I’ve accumulated a stockpile of 650B rims that should last me many more years, but I like to keep my ear to the ground on this kind of thing.

[Stephen Poole]

Thanks Earle & Scott - useful info; I might talk to LB once I get home.

@ Nick: The Quills look interesting, but unfortunately, Velocity rims are unlikely to be available for a reasonable price once shipping ex-US is factored in. Few models make it to Oz these days (mostly Deep V), I don't think the agent will do special orders, and they're not available ex-Europe. :-(

Later,

Stephen

[Nick Payne]

Velo-Orange have just released a new rim available in 650B. 22mm internal width, 27mm external width, 19mm deep. The web page doesn't explicitly say that it can be used with rim brakes, but that's almost certainly its intended use: https://velo-orange.com/collections/new-products/products/voyager-rim

[satanas]

^ But 597 grams. :-(

So far Brevets are looking good, assuming they get 32° back in stock again.

[Justin Hughes]

600g. Phew. Wide, tubeless rims for rim brakes are a compromise, that's for sure. Those probably will not play well with a lot of calipers/cantis. 

[Luc D]

Mach 1 These are made in France 

http://www.mach1.fr/en/rims/mx-52

520g

Also these

http://www.mach1.fr/en/rims/er-10-145

560g

I have two wheelset built with the ER20, not too bad

[Igor Shteynbuk]

The Voyager Rim is rim and disc brake compatible. They are heavier than some options, but they are also significantly wider to accommodate a wider range of tires that are becoming the norm. I wonder if I weighted the 36h version if they'd be lighter?

-Igor

[Jim Bronson]

Grand Bois website also lists an Araya rim that is 520 grams and polished for approximately $43.  Don't know anything about it, but I had a lot of good service from Araya rims back in the day.

https://cyclesgrandbois.com/SHOP/ARAYA_TX-310F650.html

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[A.]

Last march I created an account on pacenticycledesign.co.uk to know how much sending a pair of rims or a wheelset to Italy was. Sending the rims here is free if the total is over £200, otherwise is £15 (I've just tried with Australia as destination: shipping is £40 in any case). Prices on .co.uk include UK VAT (but you're entitled not to pay it if you live outside EU); availability differs between .com and .co.uk.

When I did my search Pacenti Brevet seemed to me the only option to get 650b tubeless non-disc rims from online shops in Europe.

Il giorno venerdì 21 giugno 2019 22:37:19 UTC+2, Will Vautrain ha scritto:

I haven’t shopped around the Pacenti UK website since I’m in the US, but every UK website I’ve ever shopped listed prices including VAT, so that’s probably the issue.

[Luc D]

I have access to a supply of Mach1 rims in France and I can ship them to Italy if need be.

[A.]

I was tempted to add that probably I should have searched in French, too. Thank you, but my 650b project is still just an idea (I need a frame first).

[Mike Schiller]

not in black... bummer!

~mike

Carlsbad Ca

[David Parsons]

On Tuesday, June 25, 2019 at 9:25:21 AM UTC-7, Mike Schiller wrote:

not in black... bummer!

That's pretty easy to fix with a trip to the hardware store!

-david "or spray.bike" parsons

[Michael Arciero]

Another note about the Veloctiy Quill-they say it is the latest evolution of the (already excellent) A23. As noted, it’s wider-21mm internal. I have a set on my new bike and they are awesome. Definitely Belgium killers. The polished are beautiful but pricey.

[Nick Payne]

On Wednesday, 26 June 2019 09:32:17 UTC+10, Michael Arciero wrote:

Another note about the Veloctiy Quill-they say it is the latest evolution of the (already excellent) A23. As noted, it’s wider-21mm internal. I have a set on my new bike and they are awesome. Definitely Belgium killers. The polished are beautiful but pricey.

When I have a look on the Velocity website, the Quill only shows up as a 700c rim.

Nick

[David Parsons]

On Tuesday, June 25, 2019 at 9:22:48 PM UTC-7, Nick Payne wrote:

When I have a look on the Velocity website, the Quill only shows up as a 700c rim.

https://www.velocityusa.com/product/rims/quill-650b 

  -david parsons 

[Nick Payne]

Interesting - when I look via http://store.velocityusa.com/c/rims, the 650B version doesn't appear.

Nick

[David Parsons]

On Tuesday, June 25, 2019 at 9:53:19 PM UTC-7, Nick Payne wrote:

Interesting - when I look via http://store.velocityusa.com/c/rims, the 650B version doesn't appear.

Maybe it's a special order only thing for now (or, worse, they have some sort of exclusive selling deal with someone.)

-david parsons 

[Stephen Poole]

No sign of the Quill in any size or drilling at their store, doubt very much that the Oz importer would order it, or that freight from the US wouldn't be prohibitive - if it was actually available somewhere.

BTW, Bikerumor seems to think the new VO rim is disc only, and there's no evidence to the contrary that I can see; there are much lighter disc options, though maybe not in silver.

Later,

Stephen

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[Michael Arciero]

Peter White Cycles has been my source for Velocity rims. You might inquire with them about shipping and availability. They do respond to email and phone calls. In fact, you can only order by phone.

[Ford Bailey]

In my experience, the Pacenti Brevet rims are light, strong, and good looking. They also work perfectly for tubeless setups. What else does one need ?

[David Parsons]

On Tuesday, June 25, 2019 at 11:53:48 PM UTC-7, satanas wrote:

BTW, Bikerumor seems to think the new VO rim is disc only,

Bikerumor is wrong.   You can always verify whether the everything bagel (er, "Voyager") is suitable for rim brakes by writing to V-O and asking about it.

-david parsons

[Matt Coe]

The owner of VO posted in this thread that the Voyager rim is rim brake compatible.

[Scott Stulken]

No, you don't!  You can always build the wheels first.  :^D

- Scott

[Scott Stulken]

The Velo-Orange page for the Voyager rim says:

• Brake Compatibility: Rim and Disc

The Voyager (and Enterprise, to a lesser extent) rim is a clear attempt to muscle in on Pacenti Brevet territory, but since most of us don't need triple-box rims, I welcome the move!

- Scott

On Wednesday, June 26, 2019 at 1:53:48 AM UTC-5, satanas wrote:

No sign of the Quill in any size or drilling at their store, doubt very much that the Oz importer would order it, or that freight from the US wouldn't be prohibitive - if it was actually available somewhere.

BTW, Bikerumor seems to think the new VO rim is disc only, and there's no evidence to the contrary that I can see; there are much lighter disc options, though maybe not in silver.

Later,

Stephen

On Wed, 26 Jun. 2019, 07:02 David Parsons, <grr....@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, June 25, 2019 at 9:53:19 PM UTC-7, Nick Payne wrote:

Interesting - when I look via http://store.velocityusa.com/c/rims, the 650B version doesn't appear.

Maybe it's a special order only thing for now (or, worse, they have some sort of exclusive selling deal with someone.)

-david parsons 

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[Eli Torgeson]

It's too bad the Stan's ztr 355s are no longer in production. Mine weigh in at....well....355grams, and they have worked well for me the last ten years.

Bring em back, Stan.

Eli
In Albuquerque

[Marc Pfister]

On Tuesday, June 25, 2019 at 4:06:40 AM UTC-6, Nick Payne wrote:

Velo-Orange have just released a new rim available in 650B. 22mm internal width, 27mm external width, 19mm deep. 

I just laced up a set and they were very easy to build up straight and true. I'm especially excited about the tall sidewalls which should make it easier to dial in rim brakes with fatter tires. They aren't light but they look good and seem very functional, plus they're tubeless compatible.

- Marc Pfister

Windsor CO

[Varun Bhandari]

Has anyone used either of these two rims? Would love to hear thoughts on build up, quality of rim, any tubeless experiences...

Thanks,

Varun

On Friday, June 21, 2019 at 4:32:36 PM UTC-4, satanas wrote:

xxcycle.com have this, no weight mentioned:

https://www.xxcycle.com/rim-ambrosio-keba-650b-silver-confreriale,,en.php

SJSC have a few Thorn rims black or silver, machined or plain sidewalls, all 32°/~480g, for instance:

https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/rims-tape/32-thorn-275-650b-584-rim-w-cnc-sidewall-black/

[Andrew L]

Varun, I used the Kebas because they were cheap with cheap postage from France when I built the first set of wheels for my Stag. 590g each and only in 36h. The pinned joint needs a bit of help (hammer, block of wood, a bit of sanding) for smooth braking. Compass tyres mount easily and well. Built easily and very true except for a bit of a bump near the joints.

Andrew

[Iamkeith]

Since this thread is active again, here's a SunXCD rim [SXR652(6)b] that I don't think I saw listed yet. The US website only lists their 700c rim - in a slighyly different profile - but the 650b version seems readily available in or from the UK. 32 & 36 hole options, double wall, eyleteted, polished silver, 19mm internal, 490 grams. I've come to think of modern Suntour components as being re-branded-but-cosmetically-superior versions of other existing products, but these are described as being built by Alex as supposedly exclusive to SunXCD.

UK Retailer with 650b version:
https://www.veloduo.co.uk/products/sun-tour-sunxcd-polished-alloy-rim-700c
(Link says 700c but is actually to 650b page.)

SunXCD US catalog, showing 700c option with strangely different profile:
http://sunxcd.net/rimss

[Nick Payne]

That SunXCD rim looks, from the profile, as though it's not intended as a rim for use with rim brakes. The sidewalls of the rim aren't parallel to each other:

Nick

[Mark Bulgier]

Nick Payne wrote:

That SunXCD rim looks, from the profile, as though it's not intended as a rim for use with rim brakes. The sidewalls of the rim aren't parallel to each other

They give the width after machining, which seems to indicate rim brakes.  Nobody machines the sidewalls on disc brake rims, do they?

Lots of classic rim-brake rims had non-parallel brake tracks, so this isn't a fatal flaw.  Rims shaped this way are best used with brakes where the pad trajectory is upward -- i.e. safer with centerpulls, not so excellent for canti brakes.  Sidepulls also have a slightly-downward pad trajectory, but it's slight enough as not to be a big issue IMHO, so I'd be OK with these rims and sidepulls. It's just cantis I would avoid.

Mark Bulgier 

[Ken Freeman]

For some of my recent noodlings this is a great resource, but I see it is dated November 2016.  Any idea if an update is out somewhere?

On Sunday, June 23, 2019 at 10:06:06 PM UTC-4, ThermionicScott wrote:

Here’s a blog that attempts to keep track of what’s in production for rim brakes:  https://supplelifeblog.wordpress.com/2016/11/23/650b-rimz/

I’ve accumulated a stockpile of 650B rims that should last me many more years, but I like to keep my ear to the ground on this kind of thing.

[ThermionicScott]

Hey Ken,

November 2016 was the original blog post date, but it was last updated in 2018.  Not sure if they're still taking updates, or if the author has moved on to something else.

- Scott

[Ken Freeman]

Velocity A23?

On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 1:26 PM satanas <nsc.e...@gmail.com> wrote:

It would IMHO be useful to compile a list, and info could include brand, model, weight, internal width, available drillings, price, and international availability (if any).

As far as I know, there are only two (2) lightweight 650b rim brake rims in existence:

1. HED Belgium+, 430 grams, ~i21, 28/32°, $165USD(!), available only from RH so effectively North America only given freight costs

2. Pacenti Brevet, 435 grams, ~i19, 28/32/36°, $80USD, RH only(?)

Velocity also allegedly make a number of rims of which some may actually be available. The Synergy (standard and OC) seems to get only bad reviews. Velocity rarely update their website to reflect reality, and non-US availability seems sketchy.

Grams Bois may also have something, but AFAIK that's about it. Anything else out there?

There are a huge number of disc-only rims in alu, carbon, etc, but if one wants a flexible fork these aren't going to help.

Later,
Stephen

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[Eli Torgeson]

+1 on the Velocity A23, as I used this rim to replace my Stan's ZTR 355 after I broke it in a crash. One reason why I used the Velocity was that the ERD matched the Ztr well enough to reuse spokes. I can't tell if velocity discontinued this, or if they just don't like putting it on their website.

The wheel built up easily and seems good. It was a bit harder to mount my Parimoto 38 as tubeless, but this may have been remedied by building up the center. I did not want to do this as it is a light build for racing, so, that's what I get.

Still looking for a sub 400 gram 650b rimbrake as it SHOULD be a reasonable option.
Eli
In Albuquerque

[Jeff Bertolet]

Among the lightest rim brake 700C rims is the DTSwiss RR411. Disc version is 405g, rim brake is 435. A 650B rim brake version would weigh ~410g. The SL23 was close to 400g but had QR issues and a relatively thin brake track.

So yes, a sub 400g rim brake 650B should be possible, but...Some of the sub 400 g disc rims have tension limits that are pretty low, making them difficult to build with. Additionally, the market for 650B rim brakes is pretty small.

I am happy with current options, though I would prefer a new version of the SL23 or a rim brake Forza assymetric.

[Eric Nichols]

I would love to see another 650b rim-brake rim, tubeless compatible, with an offset spoke bed. The only one on the market, the Velocity A23OC is pretty decent, but I’d love something a little wider. In silver, of course.

Eric “a man can dream” Nichols
Newfields NH

[ThermionicScott]

Given the history of weight-weenie 650B rims, I'm skeptical that a sub-400g rim is possible without issues of some kind.  Some Pacenti models (v1 PL23, v2 SL23) were close to that figure, and could be coaxed out of people's stashes if you wanted to roll the dice.  Doesn't seem like any of the current manufacturers care to play in that niche of the market anymore.

IMO, ~425g is a very reasonable weight for current production.  By comparison, here's what a few vintage offerings weighed:

Araya Model 15:  566g

Mavic Module 3:  470g

Mavic Module 4:  520g

Super Champion 58:  525g

- Scott

[Igor]

I’m curios which rims this person lists for grand bois that are so light, grand bois themselves don’t list any with such light weight

[Eli Torgeson]

Hope springs eternal.

Agreed that 425grams is respectable and that the combination of market size and quality/durability/longevity issues is a barrier to the sub 400gram 650b rimbrake rim.

I asked Stan's why they discontinued the Ztr355 (sub 400), and predictably they talked about the market going in a different direction. (Nothing about breakage or longevity.)

Interestingly, for a time, the Stan's Alpha 340 rimbrake rim was moderately popular for cross. There may have been more than one version of this, but it was a 340-400gram 700c rimbrake rim. Stan's still has a few 18 hole versions for sale cheap, and eBay has a number, including a weighed pair: 694grams.

Converting this to 650b weights with the following assumption: rim weight is proportional to erd, a 650b would weigh 622-584/622 (6 percent) less. For the 340 alpha (on eBay) the weight would be 326grams per rim.

These rims, too, have been discontinued, as have the beefier alpha 400 I think, so again, quality/durability issues may govern the low weight limit.

Still, 100grams (25%) lighter than current offering? That is pretty significant, and suggests to me that a 385 gram 650b rimbrake should/could be on the market.

Eli

[ThermionicScott]

Yeah, I seem to recall the original 340g A340 had problems and got beefed up... Fairwheel Bikes weighed their sample at 389g.  They also measured the difference between the outer and inner width at 3mm, so the brake tracks would be well under 1.5mm after subtracting out the bead hooks.  That's the bummer about my spare v2 SL23s: the brake track varies between 1mm and 1.2mm so I'd have to use them carefully.

I do agree it is too bad that there isn't more will to innovate 650B rims!  Perhaps with one of those fancy coatings like Mavic's "Exalith", the brake tracks wouldn't need to be as thick.  Or if the market were large enough to justify a sidepull/centerpull-specific rim, the sidewalls could angle inward from the bead hooks by a few degrees, saving a bit of weight and providing better aerodynamics!  (Some old-school pista rims did the angled sidewalls thing for both those reasons.)

Mavic claims to save up to 40g per rim through inter-spoke milling (ISM).  Provided it's done right, that seems like a pretty slick way to have plenty of beef at the spoke drillings, but not where you don't need it...

- Scott

[Stephen Poole]

Mavic's ISM only works because things like Ksyriums with low spoke counts require high tension to hold up. That means the rim needs to be able to take said tension without local cracking, which in turn means the rim is thicker there. The extrusion starts out at constant thickness, then the surplus material away from the spoke holes gets milled away.

With more normal rims, average spoke tension is lower, and the rim can be a lower and even thickness, often with eyelets added to spread stress a bit. The thinner rim wall is unlikely to have enough material to mill any away, though I suppose one could drill extra holes in the inner wall between the spoke holes to reduce mass slightly. Given some tubeless rims are solid there, it's possible the rimtape that would then be required could weigh as much or more than any metal removed...

It seems the only way to make rims much lighter than normal is to thin out the whole rim and/or eliminate the braking surface, or to make the rim out of carbon fibre. Some of the Chinese rim manufacturers offer their carbon rims in heavy duty, standard or ultralight varieties, but most of the 650b rims are hookless, not so good for >30psi. The few that have bead hooks (but are still disc only) are close in weight to lighter 650b alu disc rims, though only the ultralight varieties weigh significantly less than Crest MK3s. I dont recall seeing any non-disc 650b carbon rims, and suspect 700c will be gone in  a few years too.

Some of the carbon (700c) rims have coatings or textures on their braking surfaces to improve wet braking; this probably reduces rim wear too. With alu rims, ceramic coatings both improve wet braking (IME), and reduce wear. In theory the braking surface could perhaps be thinner, but ceramic coated, but this wouldn't be cheap. And some people whinged about ceramic rims costing more to replace when they were written off against rocks, so they're unlikely to come back in the disc brake era. The braking surface would still have to be thick enough not to be crushed by the brake calipers, even if coated, so I'd think it would be well into "marginal gains" territory.

Given the small size of the 650b rando/touring market, and that quite a few of those people seem to live in places like Seattle, and thus complain about wearing out rims quickly, I doubt there's any real.market for a rim that's much more likely to have issues compared to those already out there that don't weigh much more.

Later,

Stephen

[Eli Torgeson]

All us hopers will just wait for the miracle rim to arrive, like we have been doing for the lightweight Rohloff hub to come off the assembly line, the Subaru boxer diesel to cross the Atlantic, and Ed McMahon to knock on our doors with that special announcement.

Eli
In Albuquerque

[Ford Bailey]

I’m just curious as to what people don’t like about the Pacenti Brevet rims ? They weigh around 420 grams, they’re tubeless ready, and look better than most.

FB in NY

> On Feb 9, 2020, at 8:48 PM, 'Eli Torgeson' via 650b <65...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
> All us hopers will just wait for the miracle rim to arrive, like we have been doing for the lightweight Rohloff hub to come off the assembly line, the Subaru boxer diesel to cross the Atlantic, and Ed McMahon to knock on our doors with that special announcement.
>
> Eli
> In Albuquerque
>
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[Steve Palincsar]

I was going to ask the very same question.

-- 
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia 
USA

[ThermionicScott]

There are always a few who are not satisfied with the status quo.  When they're in a position to tinker and introduce new products, that's where we get our innovation.  BQ44 mentions that Lefol was attempting to develop *plastic* rims in the late 1940s.  Had they succeeded, we might be talking about aluminum rims in the same breath as steel rims today.  :^)

- Scott "but I still think Brevets are pretty snazzy"

On Sunday, February 9, 2020 at 8:00:07 PM UTC-6, Ford Bailey wrote:

I’m just curious as to what people don’t like about the Pacenti Brevet rims ? They weigh around 420 grams, they’re tubeless ready, and look better than most.

FB in NY

> On Feb 9, 2020, at 8:48 PM, 'Eli Torgeson' via 650b <65...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
> All us hopers will just wait for the miracle rim to arrive, like we have been doing for the lightweight Rohloff hub to come off the assembly line, the Subaru boxer diesel to cross the Atlantic, and Ed McMahon to knock on our doors with that special announcement.
>
> Eli
> In Albuquerque
>
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[Stephen Poole]

One wonders how Teflon rims would do for wet weather braking, though they probably wouldn't need much cleaning, and the nipples should be easier to turn...

Its also been said that only lazy people create progress and innovation; the hard workers just press on with whatever they've got and don't try to make things easier.

Later,

Stephen

[Ken Freeman]

As heard in engineering school, "it takes a lazy man to find a better way."

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