Request suggestions for off-the-shelf 650B rando frame with "classic" low-trail geometry

[Nick Bull]

Dear 650B cognoscenti,

My first-generation Soma Grand Randonneur frame has bitten the dust.  Last August I noticed what the bike store concluded was a crack in the paint, since they couldn't force the tip of a scalpel in.  But on a 200km last weekend, I noticed that the "crack in the paint" is now a crack going halfway round the down tube (and across the weld and into the head tube), and I can see the crack open and close as I ride (fortunately an LBS loaned me a bike so I could finish the perm!).  Possibly this development is not-unrelated to my earlier post asking about excessive fork flex on the GR (which turned out to be at least partly caused by an ovalized head tube that was not holding the headset properly in place, and that was "solved" with a steel headset that holds its shape better):  https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/650b/fork$20flex|sort:date/650b/n1E0G4BHKW0/5yCn2N86CgAJ

Anyway, the upshot is that I am now in the market for an off-the-shelf 650B rando frame with "classic" randonneuring low-trail geometry.  I plan to use this frame almost-exclusively for randonneuring.  Ideally the frame would not require through-axles so I don't have to rebuild wheels; will use canti brakes so I don't need to buy new brakes, though I'd consider switching to disc (I have a Schmidt disc hub but would need to build a rear disc wheel); and I really want it to have three water bottle holders since in the DC summers, it's not unusual to run two bottles dry between controls and need the third one. 

A possibly-obvious choice is to get a new Soma GR.  I was mostly happy with the old one and rode it for more than 13000 miles, so I got decent service out of it.  (And even though it's out of warranty, Soma may be providing a partial refund, in light of the problems caused by the workmanship on the tubes at the front of the frame.)

What else should I be looking at? 

I'm vaguely-aware of some sort of problems with Rawland but don't know what that's all about.  Crust seems like an upstart that uses such flowery marketing language that it makes me wonder if they're fly-by-night and won't deliver or won't be around in a few years.  Boulder Bikes is apparently temporarily out of the frame business, as I understand it.

Thanks for any advice!

Nick

[Ken Mattina]

I'd take a look at the Masi Speciale Randonneur       https://masibikes.com/products/speciale-randonneur-650b-2018

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Where did my hormones go?
Where did my energy go?
Where did my go go?
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[Steve Palincsar]

This bike has been discussed on the Classic & Vintage forum.  One of the members has recently gotten one and has reviewed it in several messages:

• https://www.bikeforums.net/20052372-post42.html
• https://www.bikeforums.net/20117957-post53.html
• https://www.bikeforums.net/20118944-post55.html
• https://www.bikeforums.net/20126786-post68.html
  

On 02/08/2018 11:29 AM, Ken Mattina wrote:

I'd take a look at the Masi Speciale Randonneur       https://masibikes.com/products/speciale-randonneur-650b-2018

-- 
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia 
USA

[Alex Wetmore]

Two options quickly come to mind:

• Elephant has a pretty short queue right now.  If you ask nicely maybe they'll do the under the downtube water bottle bosses for you.
  
• Box Dog Pelican: https://www.boxdogbikes.com/pelican-full
  

I don't totally understand what is up with Rawland either, my impression is that two companies are running with the name and it's pretty confusing to tell when either of them is actually selling something vs talking about it.

alex

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From: 65...@googlegroups.com <65...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Nick Bull <nick.bi...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 8, 2018 8:24:21 AM
To: 650b
Subject: [650B] Request suggestions for off-the-shelf 650B rando frame with "classic" low-trail geometry

 

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[Brad Paris]

I have a Soma GR that I've been riding for a couple of years and really like. When I started thinking about upgrading, I looked at Boulder Bikes (which makes a lot of sense since Mike Kone was involved with designing the GR), the Pelican, Lyons, Crust (both the Romanceur and the Lightning Bolt), and the NFE.

I decided to go with discs and when the wait for the NFE dropped to 2-3 months, I put myself on the list. I got lucky and ended up with the frame about 3 weeks later! 

I'm still working on the build, so I haven't ridden it yet.

All the bikes I (and others in the thread) listed are probably pretty good bikes.

Brad

Queens

On Thursday, February 8, 2018 at 11:24:21 AM UTC-5, Nick Bull wrote:

[Cary Weitzman]

Nick Bull wrote:
> What else should I be looking at?

You might want to have a look the new VO Polyvalent as well.

Cary
PTBO.ON.CA

[Rick F]

What else should I be looking at? 

Not sure what size you need but Ocean Air Cycles currently has a 61cm Rambler available right now:https://store.oceanaircycles.com/products/rambler-frameset-in-stock


Rick F in Bedford, MA

[Jim Bronson]

The entire site for Masi bikes appears to be down for me.  Does it work for you?

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[Ian A]

Cycles Toussaint out of Calgary AB in Canada have a decent reputation and are known to be easy to deal with. In the same vein as the GR but centerpull posts instead of canti.

https://www.cyclestoussaint.com

IanA

[Nick Bull]

Thanks, Rick,

On a classic horizontal top-tube bike, I'm usually most comfortable on 58cm seat tube, 58cm top tube.  Looks like that Ocean Air would be too big.  And it looks like you can't make a deposit on a new frame even if you want to.

Nick

[rcnute]

I've been emailing Sean who has responded with alacrity.

Ryan

[p k]

Box Dog Bikes Pelican is nice.

[Reed Kennedy]

I adore my Cycles Toussaint Velo Routier for commuting. It's a bit too stiff for me to want to take it on a brevet, but if you were happy with a Soma GR I bet you'd like the Toussaint as well. It is certainly no stiffer than the GR.

If you can find a Rawland Stag I'd go for it! Great bike-to-$$ ratio, and should adopt all the parts from your GR.

If a Stag doesn't present itself and a Boulder isn't too dear, that's another great option.

Lots of folks around here (San Francisco) ride Pelicans and love them, though I gotta say I'd rather spend a few more bucks and get a thinner-tubed Boulder.

Reed

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[Nick Bull]

Mike Kone of Boulder Bikes tells me that they've suspended their frame program while they find another builder to take on their frames.

On Thursday, February 8, 2018 at 3:32:13 PM UTC-5, Reed Kennedy wrote:

I adore my Cycles Toussaint Velo Routier for commuting. It's a bit too stiff for me to want to take it on a brevet, but if you were happy with a Soma GR I bet you'd like the Toussaint as well. It is certainly no stiffer than the GR.

If you can find a Rawland Stag I'd go for it! Great bike-to-$$ ratio, and should adopt all the parts from your GR.

If a Stag doesn't present itself and a Boulder isn't too dear, that's another great option.

Lots of folks around here (San Francisco) ride Pelicans and love them, though I gotta say I'd rather spend a few more bucks and get a thinner-tubed Boulder.

Reed

On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 9:46 AM, Ian A <atte...@gmail.com> wrote:

Cycles Toussaint out of Calgary AB in Canada have a decent reputation and are known to be easy to deal with. In the same vein as the GR but centerpull posts instead of canti.

https://www.cyclestoussaint.com

IanA

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[Randall Daniels]

If you liked the ride of the Soma GR I'd knock the Masi off your list. It's much much stiffer and IMO doesn't ride nearly as well. Not worth it to convert to discs for that bike.

-Randy

[John Guild]

I love my Crust Lightning Bolt so far. Fistful of seatpost!

[Igor Belopolsky]

Guess the wait list from Waterford got ridiculous

[Reed Kennedy]

It's interesting that the rest of the industry is struggling but Waterford has record wait times. 

I wonder what they're doing right? Or at least differently?

Best,

Reed

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[satanas]

Crust are excellent people to deal with IME and exceedingly helpful, so I wouldn't worry about them too much. I'd buy another Crust frame with no hesitation if they fitted me, but no way known I'd buy another GR(!).

As Crust, Boulder and most smaller builders tend to revolve around one person there might be an issue with warranty if they suffered ill health, but OTOH you're also quite likely to get exceptional service, much more so than from a larger corporate.

I say order the bike you want and don't worry too much about warranty, within reason. My GR had an only partially brazed brake boss on the fork, but it didn't break before I built a new fork; I'd inspect things carefully on delivery and raise any issues like that sooner rather than later. (Or just assume there's no warranty until proven otherwise.)

Later,
Stephen

[Ray Varella]

I would suggest an Ebisu from Jitensha Studio

They will make a 650b and allow a little customizing from stock. 

They are extremely nice riding bikes and very well made. 

Ray

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IAABC Parrot Division

Supporting Member

[Chris Cullum]

On Feb 8, 2018 17:34, "Ray Varella" <rayvar...@gmail.com> wrote:

I would suggest an Ebisu from Jitensha Studio

They will make a 650b and allow a little customizing from stock. 

They are extremely nice riding bikes and very well made. 

From what remember in BQ they are not true low trail geometry.

Ray

On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 5:07 PM satanas <nsc.e...@gmail.com> wrote:

Crust are excellent people to deal with IME and exceedingly helpful, so I wouldn't worry about them too much. I'd buy another Crust frame with no hesitation if they fitted me, but no way known I'd buy another GR(!).

As Crust, Boulder and most smaller builders tend to revolve around one person there might be an issue with warranty if they suffered ill health, but OTOH you're also quite likely to get exceptional service, much more so than from a larger corporate.

I say order the bike you want and don't worry too much about warranty, within reason. My GR had an only partially brazed brake boss on the fork, but it didn't break before I built a new fork; I'd inspect things carefully on delivery and raise any issues like that sooner rather than later. (Or just assume there's no warranty until proven otherwise.)

Later,
Stephen

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[David Parsons]

On Thursday, February 8, 2018 at 5:45:23 PM UTC-8, Chris Cullum wrote:

On Feb 8, 2018 17:34, "Ray Varella" <rayvar...@gmail.com> wrote:

I would suggest an Ebisu from Jitensha Studio

They will make a 650b and allow a little customizing from stock. 

They are extremely nice riding bikes and very well made. 

From what remember in BQ they are not true low trail geometry.

Get it fitted to the fork from the GR and that wouldn't be a problem, yes?

[Stephen Poole]

On 9 Feb 2018 1:27 pm, "David Parsons" <grr.g...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, February 8, 2018 at 5:45:23 PM UTC-8, Chris Cullum wrote:

On Feb 8, 2018 17:34, "Ray Varella" <rayvar...@gmail.com> wrote:

I would suggest an Ebisu from Jitensha Studio

They will make a 650b and allow a little customizing from stock. 

They are extremely nice riding bikes and very well made. 

From what remember in BQ they are not true low trail geometry.

^ Which means Jan wouldn't like it, but that would be a bonus for me...

[Jeff Bertolet]

Sorry to hear about the frame. What shop gave you a loaner? They definitely deserve a shoutout.

Analog cycles (formerly Gravel&Grind) has some crust lightning bolts for test rides in the DC area. I am not a fan of their marketing copy but the bikes seem well thought out. The interview with the owner on Path Less Pedaled YouTube channel was a lot more convincing than their website.

For a lot of extra money (but still half the price of custom) you get lugs and Reynolds tubing, so at least the butting should be what they say it is as opposed to Somas 1st run/2nd run butting QC issues.

[franklyn]

Masi, the VO Polyvalent and Pass Hunter, Toussaint, and another Soma GR are in the price range of your old GR. You can also look for a used frameset on the list (Stag, rSogn, and others are good suggestions). 

Elephant, Crust, and BoxDog Pelican are twice as expensive as the first group. If you are considering spending this kind of money, I would suggest you taking a look at some custom builders who are pretty familiar with the genre but still quite affordable. For example, Fitz Cyclez in Santa Rosa (which is relatively local to me in the Bay Area). He has built quite a few rando or low-trail gravel bikes (disc or rim brakes) for local (or otherwise) randos. I owned and rode a custom built for a friend and was so impressed by the ride and build quality that I am working with him for another custom. His price is only a $300 more than Elephant and Crust but it's full custom. I am sure there are other builders in the same price range. 

Being local and riding a similar size as John Fitzgerald the builder I was able to "test ride" a personal bike of his with him on gravel roads near Santa Rosa, and it was a blast! I am stoked for the custom to be built.

Franklyn

[Reed Kennedy]

While we may be drifting a bit from the original question at this point, I can't help but second Franklyn's recommendation of Fitz Cyclez as a builder and John Fitzgerald as a human being. 

Here are pictures of mine:

http://notfine.com/bikes/pinkfitz/

I just completed my first 200km brevet with the San Francisco Randonneurs on this bike. After riding to the start and home from the finish, my total for the day was 137 miles, the furthest I've traveled on a bicycle in one day by a long shot.

Thanks in significant part to the Fitz, I did the ride in quite good comfort, and in less time than I'd planned. This bicycle just works wonderfully. As an added bonus, John was great to work with. His ordering questionnaire is thoughtful and detailed. He himself is both knowledgeable and flexible when it comes to designing the frame. There are builders who will braze up whatever you tell them without feedback, and there are folks who will refuse to do anything they don't cotton to. John was neither. He would tell me what he thought was best, but also be open to hearing what I wanted to try. Most of the time I took his suggestions, but he was willing to go for a few of my odd wants as well.

The bike pictured above was... not a cost sensitive build, but even after adding many additional options the total cost was less than I would have thought and indeed less than I had budget. And if you're willing to forego some of the fancy stuff John can build you a great riding, excellent fitting frame at an unreasonably low cost.

Best,

Reed

--

[franklyn]

I don't think we were going off topic since I think some quality builders who are familiar with the genre are in the same price range as some of the off-the-shelf frameset suggested in the thread. On that, I forgot to mention Jeff Lyon. I haven't worked with him, but I almost bought a frameset from him when he was doing sale, and a friend of mine got one from him. The L'Avecaise line for Lyon is very reasonably priced, and Jeff is an very experienced builder with bikes that are aligned with BQ sensibilities (and beyond). Not sure about his wait time or if he has changed pricing recently, though.

Franklyn

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[Greg Achtem]

Pretty sure Jeff Lyon isn't taking orders right now. I'm happy I got in under the wire and just took delivery this week. Slooooooowly building it up. Also, those prices on that web page do not reflect reality, at least for the L'avecaise. Best to phone Jeff and see what's what.

Been seeing Fitz's a bit online recently. I linked to one on Flickr recently for alternative shifting locations ( https://flic.kr/p/22aBPgb ) and your pink one looks awesome, Reed. What are some of the odd wants you wanted?

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[Ryan Watson]

Not sure if it's been mentioned yet or if there are currently any frames "on the shelf" but I highly recommend the Ocean Air Rambler if it fits your budget. Larger sizes are 700C however.

Ryan

[Nick Bull]

The local bike shop that loaned me a bike is Haymarket Bicycles Studio in The Plains, VA.  I think the name's a bit confusing.  Haymarket Bicycles is the HQ, in Haymarket, VA.  Haymarket Bicycles Studio is their subsidiary bike store.

Regardless of naming issue, they were really nice.  The mechanic did a bunch of measurements of my bike and then adjusted the shop bike to match.  Fifteen miles down the road, my knees were telling me my saddle was too high, so I dropped it a couple of mm and all was fine for the rest of the ride.  Really can't ask for more accuracy than that!  Only trouble with the loaner was a saddle that was too narrow, which was uncomfortable for 60+ miles, and gearing that was too high (probably a low of 38x24 when I'm used to a "middle-ring" low of 34x34 and granny low of 24x34.

The Lightning Bolt has a front thru-axle which would mean I would need to buy a new Schmidt dynamo hub, unfortunately.

Nick

[Nate P]

I haven’t seen a mention of size needs, but has anyone pointed out the Rawland Stag for sale in another post? It’s a medium complete for what appears to be a very reasonable price.

[Sean PNW]

One option I haven't seen mentioned, and perhaps it'd be too time consuming/involved, would be to quasi replicate the 'Frek' written about in BQ 58 (winter, '16).

"For those on a more limited budget, Steve Frey explains how he made a competent 650B randonneur bike out of an old Trek with few tools, learning the skills as he went."

https://www.compasscycle.com/shop/print/issues/bq-58-winter-2016/

Many of the early 1980's Treks were beautifully made in WI with quality tubing, 531/etc, and came with stock 'low trail' geometry, particularly in the +/-58cm range.

"Low trail production bikes seem to have been fairly popular through the 1970s up until the early 1980s. There are known low-trail models from Nishiki (e.g., some years of the International model), the widely-popular Peugeot UO-8, and some models of Trek bicycles. Quite probably there are others as well......I dug through the catalog archives at Vintage-trek.com and identified what seem to be the low-trail models produced early in the company's history:

Low Trail Treks (models with 73-degree head angles and 5.5-inch fork 
offsets in sizes 56cm and up)

1976 TX300/500/700
1977 TX200/300/500/700
1978 510/710/910
1979 510/710/910
1980 412/414/510/710/910
1981 412/610
1982 311/410/412/610/613/614
1983 400/500/520/600/620/630/640
1984 400/420"
http://sfcyclotouring.blogspot.com/2007/09/about-low-trail-and-low-trail-treks.html

If you don't already, I would encourage you to get to know and develop a relationship with your local frame builder. 

Not all, but many, builders will gladly take on side work modifying frames via the addition of canti mount, cable stop, fender, and bottle braze ons.

You shouldn't have much trouble finding a builder near you: https://theframebuilders.com/

It wouldn't take too much to convert an older 'low trail' Trek into a pretty potent rando, spec'd as you want it to accomodate your existing parts; qr, 
canti, 3x bottle mounts, etc.

Not only would you end up with something unique, it'd likely be better quality with much more desirable ride characteristics than any comparably 
priced off the shelf frame currently on the market.

Trek frameset - $0-$300
Frame modifications - $300-$500
Paint/powder - $100-$350

Total - $400-$1150 depending on a few variables such as luck and how far you go with it, even at the high end though I think you'll come out far 
ahead of what is currently available at that price point.

It'd require some additional time and involvement, but might be worth consideration; food for thought.

Best of luck!

[Chris Cullum]

On Feb 10, 2018 10:30, "Sean PNW" <wheeler...@gmail.com> wrote:

One option I haven't seen mentioned, and perhaps it'd be too time consuming/involved, would be to quasi replicate the 'Frek' written about in BQ 58 (winter, '16).

"For those on a more limited budget, Steve Frey explains how he made a competent 650B randonneur bike out of an old Trek with few tools, learning the skills as he went." https://www.compasscycle.com/shop/print/issues/bq-58-winter-2016/

Many of the early 1980's Treks were beautifully made in WI with quality tubing, 531/etc, and came with stock 'low trail' geometry, particularly in the +/-58cm range.


"Low trail production bikes seem to have been fairly popular through the 1970s up until the early 1980s. There are known low-trail models from Nishiki (e.g., some years of the International model), the widely-popular Peugeot UO-8, and some models of Trek bicycles. Quite probably there are others as well......I dug through the catalog archives at Vintage-trek.com and identified what seem to be the low-trail models produced early in the company's history:

Low Trail Treks (models with 73-degree head angles and 5.5-inch fork 
offsets in sizes 56cm and up)

1976 TX300/500/700
1977 TX200/300/500/700
1978 510/710/910
1979 510/710/910
1980 412/414/510/710/910
1981 412/610
1982 311/410/412/610/613/614
1983 400/500/520/600/620/630/640
1984 400/420"

http://sfcyclotouring.blogspot.com/2007/09/about-low-trail-and-low-trail-treks.html

If you don't already, I would encourage you to get to know and develop a relationship with your local frame builder. 

Not all, but many, builders will gladly take on side work modifying frames via the addition of canti, guide, and bottle braze ons.

You shouldn't have much trouble finding a builder near you, https://theframebuilders.com/

It wouldn't take too much to convert an older 'low trail' Trek into a pretty potent rando, spec'd as you want it, 3x bottle mounts/etc.

Not only would you end up with something unique, it'd likely be better quality with much more desirable ride characteristics than any comparably priced off the shelf frame currently on the market.

Trek frameset - $0-$300

This is a good option. Now where can I get a Vintage Trek for $0?! 😉 (Yes I understand this assumes you already have the frame).

Frame modifications - $300-$500
Paint/powder - $100-$350

Total - $400-$1150 depending on a few variables such as luck and how far you go with it, even at the high end though I think you'll come out far ahead of what is currently available at that price point.

It'd require some additional time and involvement, but might be worth consideration; food for thought.

-- 

[Igor Belopolsky]

Get Aaron to build a frame

http://arcycles.weebly.com/

FedEx has mine right now

https://www.flickr.com/photos/99868450@N06/28067597629/in/photostream/

[Sean PNW]

"This is a good option. Now where can I get a Vintage Trek for $0?! 😉 (Yes I understand this assumes you already have the frame)."

They’re out there, the Treks in particular due the the volumes in which they were produced, but also many other nice models from Fuji, Raleigh, Miyata, etc...

I’ve bought far more than my fair share of very nice bicycles for insultingly low prices at yard/estate sales and swaps; to the sellers’ they were just ancient 10 speeds that had been hanging in the garage for decades….

On my commute recently, I picked up a Carlton built 531 Raleigh sitting on the curb with a free sign and just before that nabbed an ’81 Trek 610 frameset for $10 at a bike swap.

[David Hays]

Gosh. Found on my trainer… Actually picked up a few years ago for $100 an almost mint 1983 Trek 500.

Come spring, I’ll see how big a 650B will fit. Maybe 38?? I have a unused pair of Did Comp 750s. Anybody know about BB drop issues?

[Andy Beichler]

I have an 82 61x Trek and an 84 500 Trek both converted to 650b.  I run 170 cranks and have not had BB drop issues.  I run them both with 38mm Parimotos.  For reference, I am not a super fit guy who leans hard and pedals through corners.  

[Brad Paris]

On Thursday, February 8, 2018 at 11:38:01 AM UTC-5, Alex Wetmore wrote:

• Elephant has a pretty short queue right now.  If you ask nicely maybe they'll do the under the downtube water bottle bosses for you.

For what it's worth, the NFE definitely comes with 3 sets of water bottle bosses (I noticed when I was frame-saver-ing my new frame last night).

Brad

Queens 

[lj mangin]

I have been a fan of the older Treks with several in the 1982-83 range.  They have handled 650b conversions fairly well, with the main issue being facilitating longer reach brakes.

The attached picture is my 1983 Trek 640, my latest project.  Trail measures out to be around 40-45 and it handles the front pack well.  There is typically plenty of clearance on the front and a 38mm Pari Moto, Loup Loup, or Lierre has worked well in the back.  It is a very nice ride for me.

John M in Loveland, CO

Virus-free. www.avg.com

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[Chris Cullum]

On Feb 11, 2018 09:22, "lj mangin" <lj.m...@gmail.com> wrote:

I have been a fan of the older Treks with several in the 1982-83 range.  They have handled 650b conversions fairly well, with the main issue being facilitating longer reach brakes.

The attached picture is my 1983 Trek 640, my latest project.  Trail measures out to be around 40-45 and it handles the front pack well.  There is typically plenty of clearance on the front and a 38mm Pari Moto, Loup Loup, or Lierre has worked well in the back.  It is a very nice ride for me.

Nice vintage Trek conversion! What's the rear tire pictured in the photo? I don't recognize it.

[lj mangin]

Hi Chris-

That is a Maxxis Detonator.  It is listed as a 1.5" width so about 38mm.  I would say it rides ok, I primarily use it for commuting.  It has a thick tread so is ok for flat protection.  There are lots of goat heads on my commute.

I have since replaced it with an older Lierre and it is a nice ride.

John M

[Thomas Hassler]

The Endpoint hunter/gatherer is an option that comes in at under $1,200 and has a relatively short lead time once pre-order is complete.

Rick Jones could also do a bike with a real quick turn-around now that he's back up and running. 

Or even Johnny Coast for a sublime bike.

Thomas

[Kieran J]

I converted an '83 Trek 630 into a 650b city bike for my wife. 

I had a shop install mid-fork rack bosses and a threaded stop on the chainstay bridge for the rear fender, then had it painted.

It turned out well, the clearances are well suited for the switch. It's running ~35mm Soma B-Lines under VO 45mm fenders.

KJ

[Reed Kennedy]

On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 9:13 AM, Greg Achtem <greg....@gmail.com> wrote:

Been seeing Fitz's a bit online recently. I linked to one on Flickr recently for alternative shifting locations ( https://flic.kr/p/22aBPgb ) and your pink one looks awesome, Reed. What are some of the odd wants you wanted?

A few of the less usual things that did end up on this bike:

• Compass centerpull brakes, 48 mm tires, and fenders (a combination explicitly not sanctioned by Compass)
• Connectorless SON SL front fork for dynamo hub
• Non-threaded dropout eyelets for fender eye bolts and room for a 10 speed rear cassette

As well as the more typical eccentricities:

• Relatively flexible tubing for a big bike (8/5/8 single oversize)
• Low trail with a tight, low fork bend
• Wiring run through the front rack
• Custom rack and decalleur 
• Three bottle bosses

I’m extremely happy with the result. Still vaguely stunned that none of the weird stuff came back to bite me!

Reed

[Igor Belopolsky]

This thread has a lot going on in here and I have not caught up - Does the OP want rim brakes or disc brakes?

Curtlo can do a bike however you'd like, and his frames are $990+ the price of a fork.

Aaron McCambridge will build you something for a bit more than an NFE. Build time is under 6weeks.

I haven't a clue if Bob Jackson could do you a bike with a different fork (no they won't do custom) but it'll be under $1000.

Depends on what you want to spend and how much you'd like to wait.

[Ray Varella]

Question for Reed,

               How much clearance do you have with fenders and Switchback’s?

Ray

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Ray Varella

IAABC Parrot Division

Supporting Member

[Marc Pfister]

I was going to suggest the Endpoint Hunter/Gatherer too, but since the conversation has shifted to Freks my only contribution is that I have a 60cm 1983 Trek 640 I am thinking of selling. Right now it's built up as a 700c commuter but it's not getting much action as a complete on Craigslist, just some tire-kickers. Though the snow isn't helping.

So if you want to go Frek and want a "fistful of post" then maybe mine could work for you. I was hoping not to part it out and ship it but it may come to that.

Marc Pfister

Windsor CO

[Max]

Good info, Sean. Small edit: fork rake probably 5.5 cm, not inches?..

Via the vintagetrek.com site, mine seems to be a 1988 400T model, True Temper RC-1 tubing, 25.4 mm TT, 28.6 mm DT, and 43 cm chainstays (with a slanted dropout). Despite the .9/.6/.9 mm wall thickness for the DT, the 24” frame size and standard diameter tubing makes it fairly flexible. The HT angle is 73 dry, the fork rake is listed as 4.5 cm in the catalog. Not too low trail, but good enough with 650 x 33 tires, and even 38s.

I’m running Tektro 559 brakes, which are fine, but am wondering if I should do a weekend trip to Chicago and drop the frame off to get some canti or center pull posts brazed on, and repainted.

[Leif Eckstrom]

Hey Max,

I’m curious who’d do the brazing and painting for you on Chicago. I live in Chicago and have a similar project in mind, but don’t know who could do the work.
Thanks,
Leif

[Max]

Levi Borreson?..
http://www.legacyframeworks.com/

I don’t know him / of him, just happened to see that he’s the only frame builder listed in that area on https://theframebuilders.com/. The website is sparse, but his Instagram has lots of photos of sensible and aesthetically pleasing city bikes, and good looking metal work.

I live in SW Michigan, and it seems like the nearest frame builders are all equidistant from here, at about 4 hours drive, whether in MI, OH, IN, or IL. (Happy to have suggestions if anyone knows otherwise.)

[Leif Eckstrom]

If you’re in SW Michigan you should email Doug Fattic in Niles Michigan. Find his email under his entry at Classic Rendezvous website. He repaired a small crack on a LeJeune for me last summer and made a quick paint match with Imron brown metallic. He doesn’t have much of a web presence but is an amazing framebuilder—a contemporary of Sachs and Weigle.

[Steve Palincsar]

And a noted teacher of frame building.

On 02/12/2018 09:40 AM, Leif Eckstrom wrote:
> If you’re in SW Michigan you should email Doug Fattic in Niles Michigan. Find his email under his entry at Classic Rendezvous website. He repaired a small crack on a LeJeune for me last summer and made a quick paint match with Imron brown metallic. He doesn’t have much of a web presence but is an amazing framebuilder—a contemporary of Sachs and Weigle.
>

--
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia
USA

[David Parsons]

Da Google shows a bunch of framebuilders scattered around Chicago;  have you tried contacting any of them?

[Reed Kennedy]

On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 3:17 PM Ray Varella <rayvar...@gmail.com> wrote:

Question for Reed,

               How much clearance do you have with fenders and Switchback’s?

I haven’t measured, so I’ll just say “not quite as much as I’d like”. It all works great on clear paved roads, but gravel rattles through and I worry about mud pack-up. I’ll probably run 42 mm Babyshoe Pass tires if doing anything likely to involve much mud. 

Please note that the pads are perfectly placed just a hair above the bottoms of the slots and the the bottoms of the brake arms just clear my fenders. John lined everything up as perfectly as possible. This is all simply a consequence of using the Compass centerpull brakes as they were not designed to be used. 

Reed

[Alex Wetmore]

You can get lucky and find these frames cheaply.  I've owned 5 or 6 of them I think and have paid between $0 and $100 for them.  The best deal was $10 for a nearly unridden 1983 Trek 520 at a garage sale down the street from my house.  I was also given a 412 at one point.  The $100 was bought off of the BOB list and had nearly pristine paint.

I've also had good luck re-raking the forks to 65mm.  It shortens the a-c just slightly (around 2mm) since the original bend radius is so large.  This doesn't affect the angles.

They are nice bikes.  I preferred the 520 to the 620 and 630 that I had, the 520 has 9/6/9 tubing (Reynolds 501) where the 620/630 had 10/7/10 tubing.  Sadly they make big jumps in sizing, the 22.5" ones (56cm) were always a bit too small for me, and the 24" ones (60cm) were a touch too big.

There are some interesting details on these bikes when you have them apart, for instance the headtube and headtube lugs are cast together as one piece.  You can tell this when fork is out because there is no head tube inside the HT lugs.  The later bikes (mid 80s) are even more interesting from a manufacturing perspective, Tim Issac designed the lugs to save a lot of mitering and other labor.

alex

---

From: 65...@googlegroups.com <65...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Chris Cullum <cullum...@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2018 10:48:40 AM
To: Sean Bham
Cc: 650b
Subject: Re: [650B] Re: Request suggestions for off-the-shelf 650B rando frame with "classic" low-trail geometry

 

--

[William Harrison]

Alex, doesn’t the 620/630 have 8/6/8 tubes?

Will

[Igor Belopolsky]

Email/Call Matt Assenmacher. https://www.assenmachers.com/about/bicycle-and-frame-repair-pg66.htm

[Alex Wetmore]

http://vintage-trek.com/images/trek/1983/83Trek3.jpg

8/5/8 top tube, 10/7/10 downtube.

The 530 felt better to me, but it's pretty subtle.

alex

---

From: 65...@googlegroups.com <65...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of William Harrison <wharri...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 10:04:33 AM
To: 650b

Subject: Re: [650B] Re: Request suggestions for off-the-shelf 650B rando frame with "classic" low-trail geometry

Alex, doesn’t the 620/630 have 8/6/8 tubes? 

Will

[CJ Arayata]

::subscribing::

Sorry to hear about your bike, Nick. There's been a lot of good info in this thread so far, and helpful for me as I contemplate new frames. According to your mileage, my GR might not make it to PBP, but I am about to put together a new wheelset to get through this season. So, I'm in the same boat where I need to stick to rim brakes to be able to port the wheels over.

Curious what you end up with!

-CJ

[Brent Avery]

   Someone did a spreadsheet a few years ago detailing various vintage frames and their geometry , trail etc. and at the time, about three years ago, it lead me to look into Fuji , specifically the S12S, S12S Ltd., and America from about 1977/8  and up to 1982, There may be others but suffice to say these frames seem like they were made with 650b in mind, most of us realize that the Japanese bike culture have a particular fondness for French bikes so I suppose it is not a surprise there is an influence.. Considering they originally were equipped with 27" wheels I find bottom bracket drop to be quite good even with 38mm tires, currently I have Hetres on my 1981 S12S and for a frame made from straight gauge cro moly main tubes and hi ten stays and forks it is surprisingly lively.


     The fork rake puts it around 60mm so the trail is on the low side, I use Dia compe 750 center pulls and did not have to modify the frame at all, except to spread the rear spacing from 126 mm to 135 mm so I could use modern Shimano 9 speed mtb cassettes and hubs, in my case XT,  The cassette is 11-34 with a Sugino XD600 triple crank set ( 26/36/46T ).


      The S12S Ltd has half chromed stays and forks with double butted main tubes and the top of the line America is all cro moly, I have been looking for a 56 cm frame for some time, or a complete bike but they are not very common ( actually neither are the S12S variants for that matter ) but would love to get a hold of one, add some braze ons and have it painted  I really like the contrasting decals of the late '70's/ early '80's versions, reminiscent of the Treks from the same era.




     I just happen to own a large size  ( 58 cm ) Rawland Stag and just installed some Compass BabyShoe Pass EL tires on it, hoping to take a spin tomorrow and find out for myself how they compare to the Hetres. The Stag is certainly capable and encourages longer rides so it is doing something right. The Fuji feels more compliant, no doubt due to the less stiff fork and is a lot of fun to take out as well, I like both of them!


         Here is an image with the Soma B Line 38mm tires, the Hetres fit with no problem and are a bit wider of course. The shot leaning against the stop sign is from yesterday with the Hertres.


         Stag with the Hetres,



           



           Brent Avery

          Burnaby, B.C., Canada



               
       



       

[Ken Freeman]

This is my recollection as well.

On Thursday, February 8, 2018 at 8:45:23 PM UTC-5, Chris Cullum wrote:

On Feb 8, 2018 17:34, "Ray Varella" <rayvar...@gmail.com> wrote:

I would suggest an Ebisu from Jitensha Studio

They will make a 650b and allow a little customizing from stock. 

They are extremely nice riding bikes and very well made. 

From what remember in BQ they are not true low trail geometry.

Ray

On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 5:07 PM satanas <nsc.e...@gmail.com> wrote:

Crust are excellent people to deal with IME and exceedingly helpful, so I wouldn't worry about them too much. I'd buy another Crust frame with no hesitation if they fitted me, but no way known I'd buy another GR(!).

As Crust, Boulder and most smaller builders tend to revolve around one person there might be an issue with warranty if they suffered ill health, but OTOH you're also quite likely to get exceptional service, much more so than from a larger corporate.

I say order the bike you want and don't worry too much about warranty, within reason. My GR had an only partially brazed brake boss on the fork, but it didn't break before I built a new fork; I'd inspect things carefully on delivery and raise any issues like that sooner rather than later. (Or just assume there's no warranty until proven otherwise.)

Later,
Stephen

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[Ray Varella]

The Ebisu is stock configuration is a 700c bike. 

For a small up charge Hiroshi will customize geometry. 

Also, the smaller frames come with standard diameter tubing and up to a point, you can select standard diameter instead of oversized. 

There have been some great suggestions for other frames. 

I mention the Ebisu because it’s as nice of a riding bike as I have ever owned. 

Ray

[Max]

One more vote for Ebisu. I love mine. The 650b is also a standard choice, alongside the 700c version.

[Ken Freeman]

The question "what is low trail?" seems to be controversial, but one point made by Jan is that the geometric trail of these Treks (73 deg, 55 mm offset, 700x28c) is on the mid-trail side of the range with a value of 46.1 mm.  In BQ v4n3p43 he portrays 45 mm as the boundary between mid and low, for that wheel and tire size.  The issue I see in calling this low trail is that one might expect these Treks to have the steering behavior of a 700c bike with geo trail more like 41 mm, which is solidly in his low trail range for 700c.

On Saturday, February 10, 2018 at 1:38:54 PM UTC-5, Sean PNW wrote:

One option I haven't seen mentioned, and perhaps it'd be too time consuming/involved, would be to quasi replicate the 'Frek' written about in BQ 58 (winter, '16).

"For those on a more limited budget, Steve Frey explains how he made a competent 650B randonneur bike out of an old Trek with few tools, learning the skills as he went."

https://www.compasscycle.com/shop/print/issues/bq-58-winter-2016/

Many of the early 1980's Treks were beautifully made in WI with quality tubing, 531/etc, and came with stock 'low trail' geometry, particularly in the +/-58cm range.

"Low trail production bikes seem to have been fairly popular through the 1970s up until the early 1980s. There are known low-trail models from Nishiki (e.g., some years of the International model), the widely-popular Peugeot UO-8, and some models of Trek bicycles. Quite probably there are others as well......I dug through the catalog archives at Vintage-trek.com and identified what seem to be the low-trail models produced early in the company's history:

Low Trail Treks (models with 73-degree head angles and 5.5-inch fork 
offsets in sizes 56cm and up)

1976 TX300/500/700
1977 TX200/300/500/700
1978 510/710/910
1979 510/710/910
1980 412/414/510/710/910
1981 412/610
1982 311/410/412/610/613/614
1983 400/500/520/600/620/630/640
1984 400/420"
http://sfcyclotouring.blogspot.com/2007/09/about-low-trail-and-low-trail-treks.html

If you don't already, I would encourage you to get to know and develop a relationship with your local frame builder. 

Not all, but many, builders will gladly take on side work modifying frames via the addition of canti mount, cable stop, fender, and bottle braze ons.

You shouldn't have much trouble finding a builder near you: https://theframebuilders.com/

It wouldn't take too much to convert an older 'low trail' Trek into a pretty potent rando, spec'd as you want it to accomodate your existing parts; qr, 
canti, 3x bottle mounts, etc.

Not only would you end up with something unique, it'd likely be better quality with much more desirable ride characteristics than any comparably 
priced off the shelf frame currently on the market.

Trek frameset - $0-$300

Frame modifications - $300-$500
Paint/powder - $100-$350

Total - $400-$1150 depending on a few variables such as luck and how far you go with it, even at the high end though I think you'll come out far 
ahead of what is currently available at that price point.

It'd require some additional time and involvement, but might be worth consideration; food for thought.

Best of luck!

[Eamon Nordquist]

It's not like something magic happens between 46mm and 45mm. With fat 650b tires, I'm sure that lower trail is indeed preferable. With 700c, my mid 30's trail Motobecane and my mid 40's trail Trek exhibited very similar handling. Both had light easy steering and took front loads well - maybe even improved with a front load. The biggest difference was the Moto almost needed a little load, with the Trek being more neutral.

Eamon
Seattle, WA

[Steve Palincsar]

On 02/17/2018 04:05 PM, 'Eamon Nordquist' via 650b wrote:
> It's not like something magic happens between 46mm and 45mm. With fat 650b tires, I'm sure that lower trail is indeed preferable. With 700c, my mid 30's trail Motobecane and my mid 40's trail Trek exhibited very similar handling. Both had light easy steering and took front loads well - maybe even improved with a front load. The biggest difference was the Moto almost needed a little load, with the Trek being more neutral.
>

Yes, not a surprise because for 700Cx32 "low trail" begins at around
45mm trail.

[Eamon Nordquist]

Agreed, the key word being "around". My point was directed at the notion being expressed that early Treks were not "low trail" since they had around 46mm of trail, rather than 45mm or lower. Clearly, "low trail" handling characteristics don't magically disappear immediately once the 45mm barrier has been crossed.

[David Parsons]

On Saturday, February 17, 2018 at 1:27:48 PM UTC-8, Steve Palincsar wrote:

I've always heard that low trail is <40mm offset?    I raked the dickens out of the fork on one of my 700c machines to get down to 39mm trail, which was the point where I started to notice some difference in handling.

[Eamon Nordquist]

For fat 650b tires, I think so - 40mm and under of trail. For ME, with700c tires in the 28-35 range, low trail traits start becoming evident in the upper/mid 40's.

[David Parsons]

On Saturday, February 17, 2018 at 2:19:40 PM UTC-8, Eamon Nordquist wrote:

For fat 650b tires, I think so - 40mm and under of trail. For ME, with700c tires in the 28-35 range, low trail traits start becoming evident in the upper/mid 40's.

I guess.  My emergency randonneuse needs to get the trail down into the mid-30s (650x25b tires, 74.5hta, 50mm rake) before I start noticing (when it's on Confreries, I only notice handling changes when I swap between it and my high trail 650b machines -- the difference between 40mm and 55mm trail is subtle enough so I can't spot it on one of my front-loaded machines) 

[Stephen Poole]

Maybe I'm naïve, but I have always thought the idea was to get good handling, not just different handling; different isn't necessarily better IME.

[Steve Palincsar]

We all know how you feel about low trail handling.  But there are plenty of us who think you are wrong, and are of the opinion that low trail handling is good handling.

[David Parsons]

On Saturday, February 17, 2018 at 3:12:36 PM UTC-8, satanas wrote:

Maybe I'm naïve, but I have always thought the idea was to get good handling, not just different handling; different isn't necessarily better IME.

 

The first machine I low-trailed (the 700c machine) was as an experiment to see whether there was any advantage.   The emergency randonneuse's trail is an artifact of my overraking the fork (and the handling is not nearly enough for me to fire up the torch to replace it, even if I stick with 650x25b tires on it forever.)

I've built up one machine that rides a lot better with a low trail fork -- my xtracycle has had basically *no* shimmy since I put an Electra fork under it -- but I've gotten my biggest comfort gains by building frames that have really long top tubes so I'm not perched awkwardly on top of the suspended span of the frame.

[Stephen Poole]

Steady now, I wasn't actually picking on low trail (this time). There are other ways to make handling "feel different," and not all of them work so well, for instance very short wheelbase MTBs can be very maneuverable, but it can be hard to keep the front wheel on the ground when going uphill, and to keep the back wheel there on descents; high BBs compound this. There are other things that can feel a bit weird too, one way or another.  ;-)

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[Stephen Poole]

This sounds interesting - could you elucidate, please? I also like longer top tubes than most, and am curious what "really long" means here, and the rest of the geometry, the stem length, etc.

On 18 Feb 2018 10:25 am, "David Parsons" <grr.g...@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip> I've gotten my biggest comfort gains by building frames that have really long top tubes so I'm not perched awkwardly on top of the suspended span of the frame.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 02/17/2018 06:30 PM, Stephen Poole wrote:
> Steady now, I wasn't actually picking on low trail (this time). There
> are other ways to make handling "feel different," and not all of them
> work so well, for instance very short wheelbase MTBs can be very
> maneuverable, but it can be hard to keep the front wheel on the ground
> when going uphill, and to keep the back wheel there on descents; high
> BBs compound this. There are other things that can feel a bit weird
> too, one way or another.  ;-)

And then there are roadsters like the Raleigh DL-1.  You want to try
"feel different," this will do it.  Actually, it's so strange and
different I think everybody should try one at least once --  because
this is where it all began for diamond frame safeties, once upon a
time.  There's so much we keep hearing is "new" and "better" that turns
out to be neither, comparing "modern" handling to a roadster is a chance
to see "progress" that is real.

[Stephen Poole]

I'm not sure what it was but I borrowed a trad English roadster while I was having some wheels built in the UK many years ago. IIRC it had 26" wheels, and definitely had rod brakes. I was very pleasantly surprised at how normal it felt, and given the "all steel" construction and single gear it was quite sprightly. I also rented a 28" roadster in Pushkar for a day, maybe similar to a DL-1. It didn't climb at all well, not helped by the very upright position - with no leverage available - and too-high gearing. The ride was surprisingly comfy but that's about it for the good points, and one day was enough.

[David Parsons]

I've got a fairly long torso for my legs, and I like a lot of saddle to bar drop, so I tend to go for 600mm ETT & 500mm EST, with a 100-110mm headtube.   The emergency randonneuse (and its now-demised parent) are 74.5HTA/73STA, but the other frames I've built for myself are 73/73.  110mm stem, because I got a fistful of cheap 3t Mutants in that length (my slowly shrinking pile of commercial frames I've got have 130-140mm stems, which are kind of terrifying on steep descents.)

[Stephen Poole]

That sounds almost horribly familiar, but I think you're running a bit more reach and drop than me, but maybe a bit more forward saddle. Out of curiosity, what's your saddle height from the centre of the BB to the saddle top, in line with the seat tube? (And saddle to bar drop.)

FWIW, I used to use 130-140 stems on non-custom frames, but never had any handling problems with them; I used a 190mm stem on the AM for a while. Eventually my position changed, with the saddle considerably further back, but that eased off a bit after a visit to Steve Hogg; I still need <73° STA or a fairly offset post or an SMP saddle though.

The frame that's currently under negotiation is likely to have a 72° STA, and be 500mm C-T with a ~590mm ETT (might need to adjust a bit for shorter bar reach), 120-ish mm HT and a ~100mm stem, but the seat tube might end up shorter if I can still squeeze a decent sized bottle in. That would give a slightly smaller package for boxing up, or maybe rinko. My seat height is bang on 750mm, with about 60mm or so bar drop.

Later,

Stephen

[David Parsons]

On Saturday, February 17, 2018 at 6:25:53 PM UTC-8, satanas wrote:

That sounds almost horribly familiar, but I think you're running a bit more reach and drop than me, but maybe a bit more forward saddle. Out of curiosity, what's your saddle height from the centre of the BB to the saddle top, in line with the seat tube? (And saddle to bar drop.)

     On the emergency randonneuse I use a moderate-setback seatpost (20mm, I think; it's a cheap kalloy one) with the (Berthoud) saddle set most of the way back on the rails, the saddle top is ~770mm up from the BB, and I've got ~140mm saddle to bar drop (which is as far as my neck allows for brevet-length rides.)   I never found any handling problems with long stems, but they position me more over the front wheel than I'm comfortable with on steep gravel ramps.

FWIW, I used to use 130-140 stems on non-custom frames, but never had any handling problems with them; I used a 190mm stem on the AM for a while. Eventually my position changed, with the saddle considerably further back, but that eased off a bit after a visit to Steve Hogg; I still need <73° STA or a fairly offset post or an SMP saddle though.

The frame that's currently under negotiation is likely to have a 72° STA, and be 500mm C-T with a ~590mm ETT (might need to adjust a bit for shorter bar reach), 120-ish mm HT and a ~100mm stem, but the seat tube might end up shorter if I can still squeeze a decent sized bottle in.

I put the seattube bottle bosses as low as I can get without having the bottle foul the DT, so I can fit a 24oz bottle comfortably in on a machine with an almost-English-style sloping TT  (445mm C-BB, but further constrained to 350mm by building the machine with Hellenic stays.) 

[Stephen Poole]

Okay, now I see the issue with long stems - and short front centres/high BBs. Agreed about putting the seat tube bosses as low as possible - sometimes larger bottles foul my knees if they're higher. I'm wanting to have room for a Camelbak Big Chill or Zefal Magnum, so getting at it will be the limiting factor on seat tube downsizing/rightsizing; 420mm would work apart from the bottle. Hellenic stays are all Greek to me though...  ;-)

Rob English looks to do amazing work. If I was nearby...

Later,

Stephen (who's starting to think my proportions aren't quite so strange after all)