Best cantilevers that don't squeal

[Nick Bull]

OK, I bit the bullet and bought a Soma Grand Randonneur (58).  The parts from one of my other bikes will all move over to it ... except that I don't own any cantilever brakes so I'll need to buy some.

So what are the most effective and easily-adjustable cantilever brakes that don't squeal?

Thanks,

Nick Bull

[Michael Mann]

Not the cheapest, but I'm sold on Paul canti brakes. I have the typical Cyclocross set-up w/Neo-retro rear and Touring front. Easy set-up and adjustment; the tension adjustment is like the old Rollercam brakes, with a 15m wrench to set the spring tension, while you lock it down with the allen bolt. Just make sure (especially if you buy used ones): the gold spring goes on the left as you face the brake, silver on the right.

I'm also sold on installing a lower front cable hanger on the fork crown instead of hanging it from the headset. Reducing the length of free cable to brake bolt often solves chatter/squeal that's sometimes a problem with front canti brakes. But this option may not work if you have a front rack.

And it's been said a bunch of times before, but squeal is more a result of proper pad set-up (toe-in) and using the right pads, and less a function of the actual brakes. Usually. But there are brakes out there where getting the proper set up is just a real Bi*** and not worth the time and effort. I love the old Dia Compe 981 brakes for looks and performance, but I hate setting them up and keeping them adjusted.

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[Rick Johnson]

Michael makes some good recommendations, I use the same brakes with good results.

The only thing I can add is that depending on your fork you might experience some limitation on the width of tire you can fit with the brakes open. To fit my MSO X'plors (700x40, mounted on a 29' MTB rim) I had to shave the back side of the pads where they hit the fork to get a satisfactory clearance for wheel removal.

Rick Johnson
Bend, Oregon

[Allan Desmond]

I have both the Paul's long touring brakes on one bicycle and the working mans  IRD on the other, try them good brake low cost.

Allan Desmond
Desmond Tactical
702.764.8656
desmond...@gmail.com

[William Lindsay]

There is no brake that has never squealed, and there is not brake that is absolutely guaranteed to squeal.  Brake squeal is a very complex interaction that has to do with much more than only the brake.  It includes the brake pads, and setup obviously.  Slightly less obvious, it includes the rims.  It includes the properties of the canti-posts.  

I agree with velomann that the Paul brakes are excellent (but they can squeal).  The Tektro CR720s are widely considered the best value, under $50 for a full bike-worth and perform great (but they can squeal, too).  If you buy nice brakes, you'll get the setup figured out.  You might have to experiment with brake pad compound or hanger position, etc, but none of it is rocket surgery

[Mike Schiller]

 Pauls are the best, no question. I run Neo-retro's front and rear on two bikes. The touring model is good if you need rear clearance for your leg.  I'd choose the IRD's for a budget set-up as  the Tektro 720's are just mediocre IMO, I've sold off all of mine.   I have the TRP Eurox on one bike and they are hard to set up but work well once you get it right. 

~mike

Carlsbad Ca.

[Ryan Watson]

IRD Cafams are the only tolerable cantilever brakes I've found. They work well on my rSogn, I had to make my own straddle cables as I couldn't get the included ones set up to my satisfaction.

After some adjustment, they no longer squeal. I use the salmon color Yokozuna pads.

Ryan

[Greg J]

I have no experience with newer cantis, but some of the best cantis made back in the day, and easily found online used, include suntour XC pro, dia compe 986 and 987, and shimano XT and XTR. I've all of these with success, and I concur that the squeal has more to do with the set up and secondarily with the type of brake pad. Note that the only possible advantage of the newer models is their use of adjustable (v brake) pads rather than the traditional canti posts.

Greg

[Eric Daume]

V brakes.

[Kieran Joyes]

As others have said, all canti brakes are capable of squealing, depending on the arrangement. I have had good experiences with the Tektro CR720s- I replaced an old 90's set of Deore LX low profile ones, and the braking power and modulation increased like by a factor of 10. Hard to beat them for value, IMO.

KJ

[Benz Ouyang]

I can recommend Paul cantilever brakes but caution against the lovely Neo-Retros, especially if you decide to go the usually recommend route of Neo-Retros in front and Touring Cantis in the back, and especially if you're running large tires that necessitates a high cable yoke height. The mechanical advantage characteristics of Neo-Retros are such that you'll need a much lower yoke height to attain the same mechanical advantage (i.e., braking power) compared to the Touring Cantis.

http://www.circleacycles.com/cantilevers/

Set at the same height, the Touring Cantis will outpower the Neo Retros in all cases, and this is opposite of what you want, which is a more powerful front brake.

I actually had the front Neo-Retros/rear Touring Cantis setup until I discovered on the first real downhill on that bike that the front brake really didn't work well. I bit the bullet and got another Touring Canti for the front and front braking performance improved tremendously. I had a moderate yoke height at the front due to the use of a Nitto M12 rack, so YMMV. If I had adjustable mechanical advantage brake levers (ala the older XTR or Avid brake levers), I may be able to compensate for the Neo-Retros' lack of mechanical advantage (or the Touring Canti's abundance of) but I was running road levers with no such provision.

[Steve Dass]

+1 for Tektro CR720's. I put  them on my Rawland Stag and have had no problems or squealing (with stock pads) in approximately 800 miles of riding.

Steve

[Steve Park]

It's worth noting that if you are planning to mount a front rack on the cantilever studs, the outboard screws on the Paul brakes will cause the legs of the rack to be farther forward and make the rack position at an upward slant.

Paul brakes are great though.  I have had great luck with IRD Cafam and Shimano CX70.

[Jan Heine]

If you can find a set, the old Mafac tandem cantilevers are great, as long as you use them with modern aero levers. With Mafac levers, they have too little mechanical advantage, meaning you need strong hands to brake hard.

Simple to set up, with hardware that is very smart (if you need a straddle cable, any derailleur cable will do), lightweight and stiff enough that once the pads have bedded nicely after the first rainy ride, they usually won't squeal.

Paul's are great brakes, but every one I have used squealed when braking very hard, on a variety of test bikes. I suspect that the very close tolerances of the pivots allow harmonic frequencies, whereas pivots with a little more slop let the bushing settle to one side and don't develop the harmonics. I also know that a number of readers use Paul brakes, and report that they don't squeal the slightest. I suspect that it's something in how I brake...

Jan Heine

Editor

Bicycle Quarterly

http://www.bikequarterly.com

Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/

--

[Steve Palincsar]

On 10/10/2013 09:45 AM, Jan Heine wrote:

If you can find a set, the old Mafac tandem cantilevers are great, as long as you use them with modern aero levers. With Mafac levers, they have too little mechanical advantage, meaning you need strong hands to brake hard.

Simple to set up, with hardware that is very smart (if you need a straddle cable, any derailleur cable will do), lightweight and stiff enough that once the pads have bedded nicely after the first rainy ride, they usually won't squeal.

Well, smart except for the part where you have to use a 12" adjustable wrench if you need to toe the pads in.  The lack of a toe adjustment that doesn't involve major bending forces isn't exactly the best of design choices, IMHO.   One of the good things about these brakes is that you can use modern smooth-post canti pads such as the Kool Stop Eagle Claw, which is a huge improvement over the original sucker pads.   Unfortunately, they're collector items and go for vast sums of money on ebay.

There are a number of modern canti brakes that copy the Mafac geometry.  Some have serious issues with too-small fixing screws holding the straddle cables.   I haven't kept up with the latest entries in the field, so I'm not sure what's out there that doesn't involve competing with collectors to acquire.   I hoped that BQ would do an article comparing the various entries and identifying those that don't have design problems, but so far that hasn't happened.

Paul's are great brakes, but every one I have used squealed when braking very hard, on a variety of test bikes. I suspect that the very close tolerances of the pivots allow harmonic frequencies, whereas pivots with a little more slop let the bushing settle to one side and don't develop the harmonics. I also know that a number of readers use Paul brakes, and report that they don't squeal the slightest. I suspect that it's something in how I brake...

Well, you do brake harder than most people!

[Greg Walton]

Jan, is arm length the only difference between tandem and standard Mafac cantilever model(s)? Do you know the dimension for each, there don't seem to be any markings on the calipers to distinguish them one from the other. Google searches have not been productive.

Greg

Sent from my iPhone

[Leslie Bright]

I have Pauls on two bikes;   their Motolite linear pull v-brake on the Bomba, and Neo-Retro cantis on the Rom.

When I first got the Motolites, I discovered that they're "almost too adjustable", you can tweak and adjust and overthink them.  I had a lot of howling at first.

But, I 'reset' them, started over walking through the 'basics', and got them 'dialed in'. Now they're almost always quiet, most of the time.... sometimes, yeah, they still will make a bit of squeal, but they work well.

The Rom is a more recent acquisition, and came with the Neo-Retros. Having gotten used to the adjustments that the Motolites can do, I found that I needed to do very little to the Neo's.   Set up easily, and are even quieter.  

I'll concur w/ everyone else:   a bit of toe-in is key.   Get the height and the angle right to make sure you're not into the tire, start w/ the pad flush w/ the rim, then just add a tad of toe... 

[Evan Baird]

We used Gran Compe GR999s on the proto build, and they worked well for me. Not everybody likes to set up post mounted cantis, but personally I find they're a lot stiffer and more positive feeling than many of the threaded brakes out there.

On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 2:11:03 PM UTC-7, Nick Bull wrote:

[Evan Baird]

That should read GC-999.

[Fred Blasdel]

On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 7:05 PM, Benz Ouyang <benzo...@gmail.com> wrote:

I can recommend Paul cantilever brakes but caution against the lovely Neo-Retros, especially if you decide to go the usually recommend route of Neo-Retros in front and Touring Cantis in the back, and especially if you're running large tires that necessitates a high cable yoke height. The mechanical advantage characteristics of Neo-Retros are such that you'll need a much lower yoke height to attain the same mechanical advantage (i.e., braking power) compared to the Touring Cantis.

http://www.circleacycles.com/cantilevers/

Set at the same height, the Touring Cantis will outpower the Neo Retros in all cases, and this is opposite of what you want, which is a more powerful front brake.

I actually had the front Neo-Retros/rear Touring Cantis setup until I discovered on the first real downhill on that bike that the front brake really didn't work well. I bit the bullet and got another Touring Canti for the front and front braking performance improved tremendously. I had a moderate yoke height at the front due to the use of a Nitto M12 rack, so YMMV. If I had adjustable mechanical advantage brake levers (ala the older XTR or Avid brake levers), I may be able to compensate for the Neo-Retros' lack of mechanical advantage (or the Touring Canti's abundance of) but I was running road levers with no such provision.

Bingo, that "recommended route" of using the touring in the back and neo-retro in the front is *dead wrong*

Except for the heel clearance, everything about their geometries is better for the opposite scenario. You want the high mechanical advantage in the front where you need the power, and the low mechanical advantage in the rear where you have a long cable run and need more rim/pad clearance.

Besides, the Tektro CR720 and CR710 are much better brakes for almost everyone. They're rack-friendly, a lot lighter, the linear springs have a much better response, by using the spring retainer holes they're much easier to set up especially for a light feel, and they cost a quarter as much! They're also 3d-forged, so Jan can wax poetic about that as a break from pining over old Mafacs.

The Pauls do have one cool detail going for them — on a custom build you can integrate custom oversize pivots and omit the brass bushing in the brakes, almost entirely eliminating flex without needing a booster. Speedvagen has been doing this on the rear of their cross bikes for years, and Paul has started selling the boss to do it with: http://www.paulcomp.com/spareparts/permanentpivots.html

[Jan Heine]

I can recommend Paul cantilever brakes but caution against the lovely Neo-Retros, especially if you decide to go the usually recommend route of Neo-Retros in front and Touring Cantis in the back, and especially if you're running large tires that necessitates a high cable yoke height. The mechanical advantage characteristics of Neo-Retros are such that you'll need a much lower yoke height to attain the same mechanical advantage (i.e., braking power) compared to the Touring Cantis.

Actually, the mechanical advantage of wide-profile cantilevers, like the old Mafacs or the Paul Neo-Retros is almost unaffected by straddle cable height. The reason for this is simple:

- The lower straddle cable increases the mechanical advantage.

- The lower straddle cable reduces the effective length of the brake arm, which reduces the mechanical advantage.

The two factors cancel each other.

On low-profile cantis, the lower straddle cable actually lengthens the effective arm length, and thus increases the mechanical advantage twice.

Generally speaking, low-profile cantilevers have a greater mechanical advantage than wide-profile cantilevers, but they are also more sensitive to pad wear.

We described this in more detail in the Bicycle Quarterly "Brake Special" (Vol. 7, No. 2), with drawings to show how this works.

Jan Heine
Editor

Bicycle Quarterly

http://www.bikequarterly.com

Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/

-- 

[Benz Ouyang]

Jan, if you go the link I've provided, it gives you the exact calculation (it's just plan geometry) and a graphical representation of the mechanical advantages. It's actually a very nifty tool.

Here it is again: http://www.circleacycles.com/cantilevers/

[Jan Heine]

When you go to the original article by Benno Belhumeur on which the calculations are based, you can see in Fig. 2 that for any yoke height that is feasible with Hetres and fenders (>100 mm), yoke height has only a very negligible impact on the mechanical advantage of a Paul Neo-Retro brake.

On the other hand, lowering the yoke on a Paul Touring greatly reduces mechanical advantage even for very high yokes.

So for low-profile cantis, lower yokes give dramatically more brake power, but for wide-profile cantis, the effect is too small to make a difference in the range of actually achievable straddle cable heights.

Back to wide-profile cantis, I noticed this myself when I tried to improve the braking on my Grand Bois Urban Bike. I lowered the straddle cable as much as I could, and the effect was zero. The brakes still were as hard to operate as before. That is when I realized that Sheldon Brown overlooked the issue of effective arm length when he wrote about the straddle cable and mechanical advantage. (To Sheldon's defense, he wrote this at a time when low-profile cantis were becoming popular.)

The only solution is to change to brake levers with more mechanical advantage. I later rode a test bike with the same brakes, same tires, same straddle cable height, but modern aero levers instead of the original Mafac levers. Brake power was close to optimal, and the pads still were plenty far from the rims.

Benno's article is linked on the Circle A site, or click on the link below:

http://www.circleacycles.com/cantilevers/canti-geometry.pdf

Jan Heine
Editor

Bicycle Quarterly

http://www.bikequarterly.com

Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/

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[Christian]

All, 

May I ask: Is there a reason why more people don't use v-brakes?  I have Paul Touring cantis on my 650B.  I like them.  But the v-brakes on my LHT (cheapest Deores available) and my Hunqapillar (Avids) both offer better breaking and easier set up at fraction of the cost.  I've not played around much with trying v-brakes on my 650B but I'd happily make the switch if there were some out there that fit.  I do think the Paul's look better than either pair of v-brakes I own, but I am caring less and less about such things.  

Anyway, I am genuinely curious why v-brakes do not seem to be at all common.  

Thanks,

Christian 

[Alex Wetmore]

The V-brake levers that are available for drop bars are not very good.  The required mechanical advantage places the brake pivots in a location that makes the levers less comfortable to ride on from the hoods and makes the brake lever body quite large.  I've tried both the Tektro and Dia-Compe levers.

On flat bars they make sense and my wife's 650B mixte does have a V-brake for the front brake.  Another nice advantage of a V-brake is that the noodle is offset from the centerline of the brake and doesn't get in the way of rack hardware.  

My only drop bar bike with V-brakes is my tandem.  It has the Tektro levers.  The rear brake is a disk and the mountain BB7 is so much better than the road BB7 that I switched to be able to use that caliper.  The front V-brake just followed to get brakes with compatible cable pull.

alex

---

From: 65...@googlegroups.com [65...@googlegroups.com] on behalf of Christian [christian....@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, October 11, 2013 7:03 AM
To: 65...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [650B] Re: Best cantilevers that don't squeal

--

[Christian]

Thanks Alex.  If better levers existed would v-brakes win out over cantis?  I've been happy with the Tektro levers on my Noodles, but recognize of course that others might not be. 

Best wishes,

Christian 

[Leslie Bright]

The Paul Motolites on my Bomba, are using Tektro drop-bar levers on moustache bars... 

As I previously mentioned, I made the mistake of overthinking them when I first installed them; they are almost too adjustable.   But once I just went straight through, they work well. 

One of the things I liked about them;  my Bomba is 650b, but for awhile, I was running 700c cyclocross tires on my Bomba, because the pads could be raised up along the Motolites' shafts.  

They work, well, but they aren't 'classic' looking...   regardless, though, I like them.



Actually, a story, regarding my Paul brakes:  we were at the beach at Ocracoke on vacation, and I had my bike parked outside of some ice-cream stand, and a couple had noticed my bike.   Later, back in the campground, they were fixing dinner as my daughter and I rode by.   Recognizing my bike from earlier, the fella came running out and shouted at me "My brother used to work for Paul!"  I spun around and rode back, to meet him and his wife... really nice couple; he was originally from Cali, but had moved to Charlotte....  

[Alex Wetmore]

Better levers aren't really a possibility.  Drop bar levers need to be small enough for a rider to wrap their hand around, and V-brake levers need to pull more cable than is allowed by that geometry.

When V-brakes first came out cantilevers did almost completely disappear from the market.  They've come back because they are the best rim brake option for large tires on drop bar bicycles.

If you don't need major clearance then short-arm V-brakes can work with regular drop bar levers.  They do best with <35mm tires though.

alex

---

From: 65...@googlegroups.com [65...@googlegroups.com] on behalf of Christian [christian....@gmail.com]

Sent: Friday, October 11, 2013 12:35 PM
To: 65...@googlegroups.com
Cc: Christian
Subject: Re: [650B] Re: Best cantilevers that don't squeal

[Rob Riggins]

Alex, why are V-brakes best for <35mm tires?

Thanks,

Rob

Rob Riggins
Minneapolis, MN

[Christian McMillen]

Thanks Alex.  For now I am happy with the Tektros.  Regarding less than 35mm: I think Alex was referring to short arm v brakes in this context rather than v brakes generally.  For example, Paul's mini-v brakes will not clear 42 Hetres and fenders.  

Christian 

[Mike Schiller]

Canti's didn't disappear because v-brakes were better IMO.  It's just that in the 90's all the big Mfgs spec'ed them for their new mountain bikes  which used flat bars and had large 2.2"+ knobby tires,  where V-brakes work better.  MTB's  took over the bike market and the need for canti's for touring and cross bikes took a back seat. 

For drop bar bikes with big tires the cantilever brake is still the best brake for now.  The new TRP hydraulic disc may change that if they work well.  

~mike

[cyclotourist]

Aren't the short arm V-brakes like TRP CX9 and Paul's Mini-motos
supposed to play nicely with drop-bar brakes? They sacrifice some tire
clearance in order to do that though.

> From: 65...@googlegroups.com<UrlBlockedError.aspx>
> [65...@googlegroups.com<UrlBlockedError.aspx>] on behalf of Christian
> [christian....@gmail.com<UrlBlockedError.aspx>]

> Sent: Friday, October 11, 2013 7:03 AM

> To: 65...@googlegroups.com<UrlBlockedError.aspx>

> Subject: [650B] Re: Best cantilevers that don't squeal
>
> All,
>
> May I ask: Is there a reason why more people don't use v-brakes? I have
> Paul Touring cantis on my 650B. I like them. But the v-brakes on my LHT
> (cheapest Deores available) and my Hunqapillar (Avids) both offer better
> breaking and easier set up at fraction of the cost. I've not played around
> much with trying v-brakes on my 650B but I'd happily make the switch if
> there were some out there that fit. I do think the Paul's look better than
> either pair of v-brakes I own, but I am caring less and less about such
> things.
>
> Anyway, I am genuinely curious why v-brakes do not seem to be at all
> common.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Christian
>
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Cheers,
David

"it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride." - Seth Vidal

[Mike Schiller]

yes, but there are limitations on tire size. A 2" tire won't work. .... neither will a Hetre with fenders.... a real issue for those of us addicted to fat tired drop bar bikes.  

~mike

[Justin]

I have Mini-Motos on my SimpleOne. Totally converted to them. Simple to set up, powerful, attractive, etc... With my Resist Nomad 700x45 I do not think I have enough room for a fender but I do think its close. Perhaps a project for a rainy day to test.

I'll never buy cantis again - these mini-Vs convinced me

-Justin, PHL

[Matt Surch]

I resisted v-brakes for my cyclocross bike for years, struggling with fork shudder and weak braking. Carbon rims forced the issue, and I mounted TRP's v-brakes for road levers. Then I sold both sets of high end cantis I had, as I decided I'd never use cantis again, nor would I put them on bikes for my kids. There were good reasons mtbs left them behind. The v-brakes have superior power and feel, when set up well. That means high quality cables as housing. I use Yokozuna's compressionless housing. I have the most power you can get with a rim brake, and they are easier to work on. Sometimes one can encounter fender and rack clearance issues, but aside from those, I think resistance to v-brakes tends to be on aesthetic grounds, rather than anything practical. That was certainly the case
for me until I gave in and did wha I knew was the right thing.

Matt

[Chris Sanford]

I have mini-Vs (TRP CX9s) on my commuter/cross bike which has Shimano 6600 brifters, and it's not really a workable combination as the levers do not pull enough cable, and actually bottom out on the bars in the position I like to run them.  I use the interrupter levers instead, but occasionally have scary moments when my hands are in the drops and find that I need to stop!  :)  I have heard that they do work better with other levers, but I would strongly caution against using them with 6600s.

As others have mentioned, mini-Vs have lots of power but they can be tough to modulate.  They also need to run very close to the rim, and in the great brake-pad destroying Northwest, I find that I need to adjust them constantly, and true my wheels more often than I'd like.

Chris Sanford - PDX 

[Greg Kimberly]

I have a front Shimano Deore V brake working through a travel agent on
my XO-2 and it's more or less as nice but not nicer than my Shimano
CX-70's on my Kogswell. You have to set up the CX-70's so that the
straddle wire is low enough to get some mech. advantage, but if you do
that they're pretty nice. And you don't need an adapter.

Greg

[Matt Surch]

TRP's 8.4 mini v is what I and others on my team
use with either SRAM or newer Shimano levers. Consensus in the cx world is that the 8.4s work better with org brands than the 9.0. However, 8.4s are on another team-Matt's bike with current Campy, and they don't pull enough cable. Not a good pairing. After some careful tuning, however, he loved them today during our race.

The Vs are more finicky ride to ride, but it's no big deal. I can see downsides for muddy use. However, I don't think mud is a big concern for the rando crowd.

Matt

[Nick Bull]

Just to say "thanks" for all the helpful replies to my query.

I went with the Tektro CR-720's because 1) they seemed like they'll work well enough, 2) they're what's sold by Boulder Bikes, which is where I'm buying my frame, and 3) they seemed inexpensive enough not to overthink it.  The IRD's were a close second, and some old-school Shimano low-profile cantilevers would have been a good option, but I already have those on the tandem.  Paul's seem like maybe they're too pricy, at half the cost of the frame.

V-brakes.  My Burley Duet tandem came with Shimano low-profile cantilevers.  But I "upgraded" it to Shimano XTR V-brakes (using the Dia-Compe V-brake levers).  After two years, I finally upgraded again, back to the cantilevers that originally came with the tandem.  The reason I dumped the V-brakes was that in order to get them to work well (with sufficient braking power), they had to be adjusted very close to the rim.  So then they were hard to modulate -- either they were all on or all off, little in-between.  It just made for an unpleasant braking feel.  Maybe they are better on a softer surface that can give a little, like you'd be on if you're on an MTB in the woods.  I like the cantilevers sooo much better.  They squeal just about the same amount and under the same circumstances, e.g. high-humidity and cool weather.  I got some nice Scott-Matthauser brake shoes and pads that work great in the rain and seem to wear forever.

As to riding a V-brake on a cross bike, I thought I had read that that is a no-no because the straddle cable is too close to the knobby tire and can catch the tire and cause a crash.  Though it seems like that'd be true on an MTB bike, too, so who knows.

Nick

[Matt Surch]

The straddle cable clearance thing is a myth. It only interferes with fenders, sometimes. Here is a pic of my cx bike with a 2.0" tire mounted up front, which is larger than 99.9% of the riders out there on cx bikes would ever mount. As you can see, there is no issue. I rode this for 108km of road and trail yesterday.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/hurricaneheino/10283795074/in/set-72157636567438156

Matt

[Mike Schiller]

That's good info  Matt... but... I don't know how tall the Stan's Crow's are for a 50mm tire but with minimal knobs the V brakes barely clear from the angle of the photo.  There are plenty of bikes that can fit a 2" +  tire with canti's  BTW. The Rawland rSogn for example or many of the Riv bikes like the Atlantis or Hunqapillar.  I have a custom that fits 2.1" tires.   That's why I made the comment above.

~mike

[Matt Surch]

That's a Schwalbe Furious Fred in 2.0, and it's a fill 2.0. The angle shows less clearance than there is, which is more than 1cm. The fork has way less clearance. Some forks, like that on Rodd's bike behind mine in the photo, have steel crowns with tonnes of clearance. In his case, the 2.0 would fit easily, and likely larger. Going up to a more knobby 2.0, or say a 2.1, it is possible that the cable could get in the way. I am of the mind that a bike that requires that much volume and tread should be a disc bike, so this is not a concern for me. My Niner with drop bars is broken, so I am forced to stick the biggest tires possible into my cx bike for trails. 

[David Givens]

Does anyone have experience with the Origin8 Pro Force cantilevers? They're another wide-profile design with a classic look.

I have learned so much from this exchange. Thanks for asking, Nick!

-David Givens

[Chris Cullum]

On Wednesday, October 16, 2013 6:21:39 PM UTC-7, David Givens wrote:

Does anyone have experience with the Origin8 Pro Force cantilevers? They're another wide-profile design with a classic look.

Those look to be rebranded TRP Euro-X Cantis.

Chris Cullum
Vancouver, Canada

[Mike Schiller]

Similar but not the same.  The TRP's are much better made.  I bought a set of the Origin8's but after reading about Fred's issues I sold them.  I was using the TRP EuroX's on a bike I just sold. They work well but are harder to get the toe-in just right then the Pauls.    I'll use them on a bike that uses a Nitto M13 rack since the Pauls don't work that well with that rack.

~mike

[David Givens]

Thanks for the reply. Sorry if I missed it, Mike - but what were Fred's issues with the Origin8 canti's?
-David

[Fred Blasdel]

On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 7:11 AM, David Givens <davidm...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks for the reply. Sorry if I missed it, Mike - but what were Fred's issues with the Origin8 canti's?

I think the current version of the Origin-8 Pro Force cantis are safe, with two opposing M5 set-screws fixing the adjustable end of the straddle cable

The Velo-Orange versions are still stupidly flawed, with a single M4 bolt in the same place. At least they stopped using a random brass-plated potmetal screw, but I think that's only because they stopped anodizing the brakes gold.

[William Lindsay]

totally out of left field suggestion, but i'm kind of eager to try out the bruce gordons. maybe when i visit his new store next weekend i'll do an impulse buy.