Crust vs. Elephant

[Nathan Sustersic]

Anybody have exeprience riding the Crust Bombora vs. the NFE?  I'm also taking a hard look at the Nor'easter just not sure if the $300 price difference is worth it over the Bombora.  Crust vs. NFE is also Taiwan made vs. MUSA so there's that.  I think at this point I have the desire and cash to purchase a solid frame that will last and then build it up slowly to keep costs down (reuse some existing supplies).  Mainly I want to invest in the frame.

Looking for a commuter (15 miles each way over a large hill) with gravel/fire road riding capability on the weekend.

[Dan Vee]

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Dan Vee <dane...@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 7:47 AM
Subject: Re: [650B] Crust vs. Elephant
To: Nathan Sustersic <nat...@gmail.com>

Well depends what your going for geometry wise too.  Aren’t  the NFE and the Nor Easter low trail? And the bombora is not. 

On Thu, Sep 5, 2019 at 11:00 PM Nathan Sustersic <nat...@gmail.com> wrote:

Anybody have exeprience riding the Crust Bombora vs. the NFE?  I'm also taking a hard look at the Nor'easter just not sure if the $300 price difference is worth it over the Bombora.  Crust vs. NFE is also Taiwan made vs. MUSA so there's that.  I think at this point I have the desire and cash to purchase a solid frame that will last and then build it up slowly to keep costs down (reuse some existing supplies).  Mainly I want to invest in the frame.

Looking for a commuter (15 miles each way over a large hill) with gravel/fire road riding capability on the weekend.

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[nsuster]

Dan, you're right.  Coming from a MTB background and mostly riding my Surly BD I don't have much experience on the road between high and low trail.  Especially not for commuting a medium distance each day.  I think I'm leaning towards the NFE mainly due to the USA build and it's been around long with great feedback to be sure it's a solid frame.  Glen seems to know what he's doing and isn't too concerned with jumping on the next trend.  But also is willing to change something to improve the frame.

On Friday, September 6, 2019 at 4:47:53 AM UTC-7, Dan Vee wrote:

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Dan Vee <dane...@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 7:47 AM
Subject: Re: [650B] Crust vs. Elephant
To: Nathan Sustersic <nat...@gmail.com>

Well depends what your going for geometry wise too.  Aren’t  the NFE and the Nor Easter low trail? And the bombora is not. 

On Thu, Sep 5, 2019 at 11:00 PM Nathan Sustersic <nat...@gmail.com> wrote:

Anybody have exeprience riding the Crust Bombora vs. the NFE?  I'm also taking a hard look at the Nor'easter just not sure if the $300 price difference is worth it over the Bombora.  Crust vs. NFE is also Taiwan made vs. MUSA so there's that.  I think at this point I have the desire and cash to purchase a solid frame that will last and then build it up slowly to keep costs down (reuse some existing supplies).  Mainly I want to invest in the frame.

Looking for a commuter (15 miles each way over a large hill) with gravel/fire road riding capability on the weekend.

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[Kevin M]

You might want to find something with low trail to test ride first, especially if you’re coming from a mtb background and plan on riding it off-pavement.

In my opinion, low trail and off-road isn’t a good combo.

[matthew shroyer]

Hi, I have been shopping out this similarly, but my frame "needs" are slightly different than yours. 

Dan is correct, the NFE is low trail, the nor easter is low, but approaching mid, and the bombora is high trail. Also, if you are interested in the bombora, but can handle a Q above road cranks, the evasion is the same geo, but with way more axle options, and far more tire options due to clearance, and probably more open to future industry changes than the bombora. 

For your use I would look at the midnight special, the straggler, the soma wolverine, and the gorilla monsoon as well...  For your stated use am not sure if i would go towards the crust bombora or evasion, since most riding will be on road, and on mild trails, but that is not me speaking from riding any of these bikes, its just from guessing due to numbers and others reviews, take that with some salt.

How much crap are you commuting and weekending with slapped to your bike?

If you are up for low trail and ok with a M, Igor has his hunter gatherer up for sale, their sizing runs a little small.  I passed on it due to size, and decided that i probably do not want low trail. I have never ridden a low trail bike to my knowledge, and much of my riding will have bad roads, rocks, unmaintained roads and trails, and high speed decents through bad terrain. There are a lot of varied opinions on low trail, just ask Mr Peterson, and Mr Heine. 

You should also look at the  Black Mountain Cycles ( which, ah-hem is NOT the Swiss company BMC ) monster cross disk, and Somas wolverine.

Also, what is your current bike, and what are you trying to improve???

The last bike i had that was close to any of these was a cross check, which really helps me when looking at the geometry. A lot of these could be considered tweaked cross checks.

Here are some notes i made on the spec of the 3 you mentioned. The following applies to L, and M sizes unless specifically indicated. All specs were calculated at noted max tire size according to manufacturer. most of this is from bikeinsights.com

Elephant NFE:

The front end of this is the same as the crust romancer by the way, but that has the more classic high standover road frame. Stack and reach are super close too. at least in L.

Highest stack

Low trail, 37.6 with largest recommended tires 2.1 inch 27.5 in 

Steeper headtube of these 3, at 73 degrees shared with nor' easter.

Mid wheel base of these 3, 1041M-1056Lmm

BB height 275.3

chainstay 435mm

takes road cranks for low Q

Least tire clearance

Crust Nor'Easter:

Classic look with horizontal Top Tube.

Low/Mid trail, M with 26x2.8 45.6 , L with 27.5 x2.8 

73 degree head tube.

longest wheel base of the 3, 1053M-1065Lmm wheel base

BB height 277.6M - 271.1Lmm

Chainstay 440M, and 450Lmm

Will not take road cranks

Most tire clearance.
from crust"* 52cm & 55cm frames are designed around  a 27.5 X 2 tire, or a 26″ X 2.8 (max, can not fit 3″.)
*58cm & 62cm frames are designed around a 29″x 2 tire or a 27.5 x 2.8 (max, can not fit 3″.)"

Crust bombora, Evasion would be pretty much the same at these given tire sizes, the bombora is pretty much a slim evasion:

High trail, 70.8 with 2.4" tires

Slackest headtube at 71 degrees.

Shortest wheel base of the 3 at 1023M-1043Lmm

BB height 289mm

Chainstay 425mm

Will take road cranks for low Q

27.5x2.4 tire clearance 

I suggest making your head hurt on bikeinsights.com by comparing your current ride, and all of these others and trying to guess at fixing what you don't like about your current bike.

If you go for the nor'easter they have some peach ones with a one inch head tube for a quill stem left.

I hope some of this helps

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[matthew shroyer]

Oh, i had intended my response to be to the OP, Nathan. In case that confused anyone. Sorry.

[nsuster]

Matthew, thanks, this definitely helps!

Everything you said is pretty much inline with what I've figured out but I appreciate your insight into the Evasion and the hunter gatherer.  It looks like maybe Igor sold his?  I'm also 5'11.5" with a 34.5" inseam so I thought a L would be more appropriate.  I guess I'm really struggling with not being able to test a low trail bike on trails and a MIT vs. MUSA.

The whole reason for this discussion is that my current bike isn't even comparable.  I have an old Gary Fisher Marlin disc that I put a rigid fork on with fenders/racks.  It's basically just a reaction to having no time to MTB anymore due to a 6 and 2 year old and just wanting to cruise around Portland to get places on a bike vs. a car.  My only other bike is a Surly BD I've had with the Yepp seat and hoopties so I can ride my kids pretty much anywhere safetly.

My 6 year old has been getting more and more into gravel and light trail riding and he actually does really well off road.  I also want to start commuting more but it's a long way over hills so I wanted something that can be fun on the road as well.  I won't be able to convince the family I need two bikes (road and off road) :)

I like the Surly's but wanted something a little lighter and responsive.  I did take a hard look at the Black Mountain MCD and that is definitely still on the list.  I talked to Mike about them and he seems like he really thinks things out and makes frames that last.  I've done a lot of comparisons on bikeinsights so that helps as well.

So to summarize, this is my first "real" bike (besides arguably the BD but that's a whole different animal).  I'm mostly a runner but really want to exchange some ultrarunning time for low impact biking.

I'm also looking at custom but then that's another thing entirely and would need to convince the family I need to spend the money.  Bantam in PDX is top on my list.  Then I can get Bob just to make what I want but the other downside to custom is resale if I decide I want to go a different direction in the future.

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[Hunter Ellis]

Go visit Golden Pliers. They're a Crust dealer and might have some fun stuff for you to take for a spin

[Michael McMahon]

Kevin at Golden Pliers is fantastic! 

I've been following this thread asI'm considering swapping my All City SpaceHorse frame for the Bombora (or Romanaceur). I did a custom build on the SpaceHorse for gravel/dirt riding - I already have a Rawland Drakkar set up as dedicated touring/commuting bike.

I love the build we did but I've found the frame to be pretty dead feeling, especially in the rear. I assume that rear triangle on the SpaceHorse is super robust steel and as such just not very lively.

Also, I've found myself venturing more and more into the double/single track and so am thinking I might enjoy a frame that has a bit different geometry and lighter steel and can run some larger tires if I want. I've been running the new Ultradynamico's and love them. 

Michael in the PDX

[Hunter Ellis]

Michael, I'm gonna take this opportunity to hijack this thread and ask about your tires--have you been able to compare them to ThunderBurts, the Teravail 48mm knobby offering, or the compass 48mm Hill/Pass/whatever?

Hunter Ellis

Cell: 707-583-6583

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[nsuster]

I should also mention that I will have a front panniers when commuting with mainly a laptop in it.  Not too heavy.  Gravel/fire road riding will be mainly stuff to keep my son happy, snacks, jackets, etc.  So not too heavily packed.

Now looking at the Black Mountain Road + Seems like new owners love that bike.  Also has lower trail than the MCD but not as low as the NFE.

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[matthew shroyer]

Nobody around me has a Bombora, or on the other end, anything low trail to try, so i am in the dark... and sigh honestly the pink and mermaids, though i personally like them are more "look at me" than i ideally want.

...But i am still about to pull the trigger on the bombora, because it checks all my boxes other than aesthetics. And again, I actually really like the aesthetics, i just don't want that much attention.  For me the bombora is just about the only game in town if i want 27x2.4" and the Q of road cranks.  Aside from that the short chain stays, the slacker head tube and high trail that lean towards mtb numbers, and high stand over frame (for big bag and more water), also check more boxes for me. As do all the rack mounts and through axles. 

I am still curious about low trail though, and guess i will remain so.

Nathan, I am near your size and looking at an L as well.  My pubic bone height, or book up the crotch inseam, or max standover barefoot is 35", but im 5'10", my cross check was a 56.

I hear you with the kiddos, my 5 year old just got decent on the bike, but is transitioning with the next size, the 3 year old is nipping at his heels, and my 9 year old is nipping at mine(at least in really tight trails)!

I am going to gloat now, this is the first year that all my kids will be in school, and i primarily work from home, and have had kids in it for 9 years. I should actually be able to put on some miles once again, i really want something i can put tons of miles on and be comfortable on our bad roads, and rough trails. 

I am down to pretty much one bike now, my MTB, and it is wonderful, but it has no rack mounts, or much frame space, and it would hate being loaded. it is an old mid 90s ultralight Ti XC bike, a fishlips toxic tuna. I am afraid to load it, pull a kid behind me on it, or beat on it. Somehow i have still managed to not break the old Top Line cranks on it, knock on wood.

Analog was pretty against low trail for rough stuff (and kindof in general) when i spoke with them on the phone.  Here is a write up of theirs to further confuse you : https://www.analogcycles.com/debunking-low-trail/

You mention "first real bike", I would avoid customs for now until you get something close (that is cheaper) that you can get a good long experience base on to base that build on better. The builder cannot know how to build it the best that they could, if you don't fully know what works for you.

Michael, Which compound do you have of the ultradynamico Rose, I saw that the Cava is out for testing.

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[nsuster]

Good point Michael on the custom.  I think I have no reference so likely wouldn't want to spend that money on something that isn't perfect and well thought out.  Also not much resell value unless someone my size and proportions is interested!

I'm amazed at how good my 6 year old can rides trails.  My 2 year old is getting to know his strider but will be close behind.

I also read the analog cycles which is what gave me pause for a low trail on off road.  Looks like the BMC MCD or Road + or the Bombora for me.

I did finally get a pic of the yellow Elephant NFE and I like it...although the standard green is hard to argue with as well. Not the disc but old style fork.

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[Dan Vee]

As someone who probably got a custom a little too early I agree with that.  Good to get to know what you like and how you like to be positioned and fit on a bike before you get into it. 

On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 4:27 PM Dan Vee <dane...@gmail.com> wrote:

As someone who probably got a custom a little too early I agree with that.  Good to get to know what you like and how you like to be positioned and fit on a bike before you get into it. 

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[Joe Torres]

On Thursday, September 5, 2019 at 10:00:05 PM UTC-5, nsuster wrote:
> Anybody have exeprience riding the Crust Bombora vs. the NFE?  I'm also taking a hard look at the Nor'easter just not sure if the $300 price difference is worth it over the Bombora.  Crust vs. NFE is also Taiwan made vs. MUSA so there's that.  I think at this point I have the desire and cash to purchase a solid frame that will last and then build it up slowly to keep costs down (reuse some existing supplies).  Mainly I want to invest in the frame.
>
>
> Looking for a commuter (15 miles each way over a large hill) with gravel/fire road riding capability on the weekend.

The only way to truly find out is to test ride them. Ether way they are both great bikes. If you install a needle bearing headset you can tune out any twitchiness on a low trail bike. My NFE.

[Michael McMahon]

Re: ultradynamicos: I have the rose’. Hunter, I can’t compare to any that you mentioned. In this size rang I’ve had the wtb byway and horizon and some old vee rubber speedsters. I like them more than the horizon for sure and have felt comfortable on single track with them and they cruise nice on the dirt toad. Definitely supple. I think if I were to ride more single track  I might want a little wider but for all around use I really like em. 

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   Phone: 503-985-9625  Fax: 844-326-8403

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[Daniel Jackson]

joe,

That’s a dope Elephant.

[matthew shroyer]

Micheal, which compound on the ROSe?

On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 6:17 PM Daniel Jackson <daniel.se...@gmail.com> wrote:

joe,

That’s a dope Elephant.

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[Michael McMahon]

I got the Breve't compound - I think mostly based on color preference :) 

   Michael McMahon, L.Ac, LMT
   1235 SE Division St, Suite 106
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[Iamkeith]

I didn't read all the posts thoroughly, so don't know if anyone suggested the Crust Dreamer. Since you have time to wait, that would get you the bomboora/evasion geometry and MUSA as well, like an elephant.

[matthew shroyer]

Keith, good suggestion!  I do not think anyone mentioned it. For me it does not have enough tire clearance. 2.0 is what crust mentions. It does take narrow cranks though, at least 147-149mm judging by the cranks i have seen on them. I cannot tell which eastons they were though, carbon or aluminum, the carbons are narrower q if i recall correctly.  The sizing is a little different too, check it on bikeinsights. .5 deg steeper HT, a little less trail, slightly longer chain stays at 6mm more. BB drop is the same, but the height on the dreamer is lower due to the tires. If you want to front load it, or really beat on it, It takes a carbon fork, which is a deal breaker for me. More toe overlap at a given tire size if that is an issue for you. i was comparing the xm dreamer to L bombora.

I dont know the next availability, nor the availability of the black mountain road plus, both are out of stock. Well, the black mountain was in stock in a small size, i forget which. 

Check out the monster cross (not monster cross disk) vs the Dreamer on bikeinsights https://bikeinsights.com/compare?geometries[]=59e10d00b0dd24001287f830&geometries[]=5a1e39d43db1cb0014c51ab2&builds[]=&builds[]=

here is the MCD and dreamer

https://bikeinsights.com/compare?geometries[]=59e10d00b0dd24001287f830&geometries[]=5cf1a7a6f8f25f00170a3caf&builds[]=&builds[]=

and the bombora and dreamer

https://bikeinsights.com/compare?geometries[]=59e10d00b0dd24001287f830&geometries[]=5b71904342e57800140c4387&builds[]=&builds[]=

and bombora and MCD

https://bikeinsights.com/compare?geometries[]=5b71904342e57800140c4387&geometries[]=5cf1a7a6f8f25f00170a3caf&builds[]=&builds[]=

I wish i could ride all these.

matt

On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 9:58 AM Iamkeith <keith...@gmail.com> wrote:

I didn't read all the posts thoroughly,  so don't know if anyone suggested the Crust Dreamer.  Since you have time to wait, that would get you the bomboora/evasion geometry and MUSA as well, like an elephant.

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[Dan Vee]

The old dreamer came with a tapered steerer and Carbon fork.  Newer ones are 1 1/18 with steel fork.  I also believe My friend has got schwalbe g one speed 2.35s on his fwiw

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[matthew shroyer]

Thanks, you are correct! I did not dig enough. I this the one you mean? https://crustbikes.com/dreamer-pre-sale/  they state 2.1 tires tops?

I'll have to ask about availability, but the price is probably more than i can handle personally.

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[Joe Torres]

On Friday, September 6, 2019 at 5:17:55 PM UTC-5, Daniel Jackson wrote:
> joe,
>
> That’s a dope Elephant.

Thanks man! I love it.
Those are Schwalbe 2.35’s stuffed in there. Rides smooth.

[nsuster]

Black Mountain Road+ is basically in stock. You just need to put down a $100 deposit. The frames should be arriving anytime according to Mike.

[satanas]

^ At least some Road+ sizes and colours are low according to what Will posted last week. If you want a 53 in purple get in quick, or you'll be stuck with baby puke - or whatever Mike calls it. ;-)

Later,
Stephen (who's already in the queue)

[matthew shroyer]

I dont see an individual page for the road plus in the shop section anymore with that last red frame, for what that is worth. Stephen, so i take it that a lot of the new batch has pre sold.... that was quick! https://blackmtncycles.com/summer-update-aka-road-on-the-way/

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[Ian Wilder]

I might be able to help a bit on this. I've been riding a Bombora for about 2 months now. The first month I used a 60mm offset Black Mountain Road+ fork on the Bombora. Trail measurements brought it to around 47mm. This isn't true low low trail, but I was not pleased with the ride feel nor the handling. It was stable enough at low speeds and climbing, but almost any bump I hit over 10mph caused me to hold tight to the bars and consciously focus on holding tight to my line. I have about an 8 mile commute one way on bad streets and bumpy paths early in the morning before sunrise. It was my first experience with low-ish trail and was not for me.

So, I switched to the Bombora with the stock fork and it is dreamy. I will say, the Bombora frame is exceptionally light and lively (for the price), whereas its stock fork seems to be the same fork used on the Evasion? It's almost as heavy as the frame! Nice flex in the rear as a big guy (225lbs rider) the front fork even with it's trail figures closer to a rigid MTB gives me alot more confidence on flats and decending, Even with a handlebar bag. It's pleasantly nimble with Switchback Hills on gravel and pavement.

Haven't ridden the Elephant, BUT I would DEFINITELY recommend trying a low trail bike on your normals rides before committing to a bike. Personal preference comes into play here, but I enjoy the Bombora's 75mm of trail and am glad I didn't go with something low-trail like a Romanceur or Elephant. If I had a heavy front load every single day, and did alot of climbing, I could see the advantages of low trail, but I'm not quite sold.

Ian in STL

[Alex Wetmore]

I'm just adding a photo of a customish NFE with the yellow paint.  Stock size, custom tubing selections:

https://pro2-bar-s3-cdn-cf.myportfolio.com/c65eb6be-abfd-4c42-a1bc-327aa957e06e/8b0524ee-6953-4b1e-907a-9999a345ab86_rw_1920.jpg?h=cb1b10d5a15c1abf0ae28004d6f35b8f

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[matthew shroyer]

Nice i like your kit so far! 

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[nsuster]

Thanks Alex.  Love the yellow!

Looks like the best way to decide will be to ride both of these.

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[Michael McArthur]

Bombora is 1x specific afaik. And it has 420mm stays (vs 435mm on NFE). So the gear jumps on the road is worse than the NFE running 2x...and off-road the Bombora likely gives up some stability at speed.

[matthew shroyer]

Michael,

Stays on the bombora are 425mm. I have not ridden either bike, so this is just a generalization, but all things considered right. On paper it seems that If considering just the rear triangle, and the 10mm shorter stays, yes the bombora would give up some stability at speed in comparison, not to mention its bottom bracket height. 

If just considering the front end geo of these two, the NFE would give up stability at speed due to to 2 degrees steeper head tube, and lower trail. 

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[Daniel Jackson]

Off road the Bombora gives up nothing at speed. The thing is a stable speed demon on road, off road. Wherever. 

[matthew shroyer]

...higher bottom bracket height. 6mm at a given tire size. 22.4 mm with the bombora on 2.3 x 27.5 and the NFE on 42 x 27.5, both size large according to bike insights.

[matthew shroyer]

Dan, good to hear.

Well for better or worse I made my final decision a few minutes ago after agonizing for way too long, and staring at geo numbers, and reading about bike geometry, and reviews for way too long.  I'll give input and opinion on it when it gets here. I am not sure if it helps to say what i decided on or not yet as I don't know if I have anything to add to the discussion other than i made a choice based on what i thought would work best for me. I guess i could spout off why i made the choice i did, and chime in later if the bike actually checks the boxes i hoped it would.

Matt

[Daniel Jackson]

The...suspense...though.

[Hunter Ellis]

You got a BMC (Swiss) carbon fiber road bike for 25c tires?

On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 5:15 PM Daniel Jackson <daniel.se...@gmail.com> wrote:

The...suspense...though.

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Hunter Ellis

Cell: 707-583-6583

[matthew shroyer]

yea... the suspense...

 Hah, I got the bombora. From the bikes i have owned in the past, and what i liked and disliked about those i inferred that it was the better choice for me personally. Low trail sounds like a mistake for the amount of bad roads, single track and rough double track around here. I am trying to push into more endurance ridding too, and it seems to me i might miss the stability and tracking of high trail towards the end of of rides if tired and fatigued. However i know Mr Heine rides long distances, etc etc on low trail. I guess my take away from looking at all the numbers and reading about the results of frame geo is that, one an reasonably assume the sum of the bomboras geometry should be: stable at speed with no to light input, unloaded and at least light-moderately loaded, and nimble when you push and lean into it, which is what i am used to. That seems to follow notes on the evasion, which it nearly is.   

 Anyway, hopefully my guess works out.  If i needed a city bike i would of probably got something different, but i don't live in the city, and don't ride nice roads if i ride roads at all.

I would have liked to know if i like low trail or not, as i like that it affords more toe clearance, and front loaded stability. It seems that to a degree, some folks can get used to and do fine with either, and we may be making this a bigger decision in general that this actually is, hah. That said, at this point i have talked to and found as many people who have tried low trail and tried to like it and then went back to high, as i have found lauding it.  I'll post this again, which i currently buy into for whatever the heck that is worth https://www.analogcycles.com/debunking-low-trail/

Hopefully all that is helpful banter for someone else, and hopefully I am happy with my choice. OMG bikes...

Matt

On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 8:15 PM Daniel Jackson <daniel.se...@gmail.com> wrote:

The...suspense...though.

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[Mark Schneider]

Low trail is great, if you want to carry a front load. Do you? If not there isn't much point, high trail bikes handle slowly with a front load, low trail handles less than optimally without a front load. I'd argue your intended load carrying preference should dictate what type level of trail you have.

Mark

Loma Mar

[Alex Wetmore]

I disagree with that, I ride low trail bikes with no load all the time.

I just read the Analog Cycles blog piece that Matthew Shroyer posted and think it misses the mark too.  The funniest thing about that piece is that it highlights the Bridgestone MB-1, which is an aggressively low trail bike as far as mountain bikes go.

I think a better way to think about it is what kind of riding do you prefer?  If you want to bomb over everything without regard to a the best line then high trail is great.  It's hard to knock off of course.  If you like to pick a line and are more precise about your steering then a lighter handling low trail bike might be for you.

The riding that matthew shroyer describes (and maybe I should have replied to his email) is exactly the stuff where I think low trail shines.  Here is his quote: "Low trail sounds like a mistake for the amount of bad roads, single track and rough double track around here."

One place where low trail bikes clearly suffer is riding with big rear loads.  If you prefer rear panniers to a bag on the front then you shouldn't even consider a low trail bike.  I like carrying gear up front because it lets the frame be more flexible than one that can handle rear loads, and that provides a better ride in my opinion.

alex

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From: 65...@googlegroups.com <65...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Mark Schneider <mark...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2019 8:26 AM
To: 650b <65...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [650B] Re: Crust vs. Elephant

 

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[rcnute]

I've not tried a Crust but can attest the NFE rides great l(front) loaded or not!  (Didn't try rear loading on it.)  I don't think you need to throw a giant bag on a low trail bike to enjoy it.  Nice thing is that when you do the steering is still responsive and maneuverable.

Ryan

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[matthew shroyer]

Allan, I am not completely sure if that is directed at me. if it is, I stated " a better choice for me personally", referring to my intended use for the bike in relation to it geometry. I did not want to infer that I thought one of those bikes was in generally a better choice for anyone. No bike discussed in this thread is made in China. Also, where did sexual preference come in?

On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 1:28 PM <desmond...@gmail.com> wrote:

“ better choice personally “” that’s pretty gay buddy.. it’s just a China made bicycle, don’t to warped up it , enjoy it ride, but my goodness the public angst is a bit much.. don’t do real custom or you’ll die!! Cheers Allan

Sent from my iPhone

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[Chris Cullum]

On Wed, Sep 11, 2019, 08:32 Alex Wetmore, <al...@phred.org> wrote:

I disagree with that, I ride low trail bikes with no load all the time.

I just read the Analog Cycles blog piece that Matthew Shroyer posted and think it misses the mark too.  The funniest thing about that piece is that it highlights the Bridgestone MB-1, which is an aggressively low trail bike as far as mountain bikes go.

The BStone MB-x was definitely a bit steeper in the head tube than a typical MTB of the day. However in terms of real low trail the MB-1 at 72deg with 4cm offset and widish tires is definitely high trail and not approaching anything that would encourage front biased loading. I had an MB as my main bike for many years. I set it up with drops and a high rise stem. When touring I would load up the rear almost exclusively.

I've had a number of low trail bikes since then, starting with a vintage Raleigh International (73/6.0), then a 700C Coho Randonneur (same 73/6.0), a Rawland rSogn 650B (73/6.0) and a MAP Randonneur 650B (73/6.5?). I'm a full convert to the front loading classic low trail rando bike. 

My Rawland has an XL rando bag on there 90% of the time and in my opinion, handles great. It's also fine without the front bag, the steering is a bit lighter but no issues. It's also fine on mild offroad excursions. The only time find the low trail to be suboptimal is steep rugged gravel descents. There are a few unpaved gravel/rocky climbs I do and I have to say descending those is a bit hairy. This is definitely underbiking territory on 42mm slicks. I'm generally very cautious on the descents, they are rocky and rutted and you have to keep the speed down. The bike does tend to feel skittish like the front end might wash out. I've done those descents on my friend's old school front suspension MTB with disc and I was able to take it a much higher speeds without the fear of dumping it. That bike has more powerful brakes, bigger tires, front suspension and a lot more trail.

 Last year I did the climb and on the descent there were some mtbers on the trail filming and I had to go offline and not pick my best way through. Right in front of them the front end washed out and I went down on the Rawland. Crashing on a rocky gravel descent is not any fun. Overall that's the one scenario where I think the low trail is limiting or requires a bit more caution.

I think a better way to think about it is what kind of riding do you prefer?  If you want to bomb over everything without regard to a the best line then high trail is great.  It's hard to knock off of course.  If you like to pick a line and are more precise about your steering then a lighter handling low trail bike might be for you.

The riding that matthew shroyer describes (and maybe I should have replied to his email) is exactly the stuff where I think low trail shines.  Here is his quote: "Low trail sounds like a mistake for the amount of bad roads, single track and rough double track around here."

One place where low trail bikes clearly suffer is riding with big rear loads.  If you prefer rear panniers to a bag on the front then you shouldn't even consider a low trail bike.  I like carrying gear up front because it lets the frame be more flexible than one that can handle rear loads, and that provides a better ride in my opinion.

alex

---

From: 65...@googlegroups.com <65...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Mark Schneider <mark...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2019 8:26 AM
To: 650b <65...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [650B] Re: Crust vs. Elephant

 

Low trail is great, if you want to carry a front load. Do you? If not there isn't much point, high trail bikes handle slowly with a front load, low trail handles less than optimally without a front load. I'd argue your intended load carrying preference should dictate what type level of trail you have.

Mark

Loma Mar

On Thursday, September 5, 2019 at 8:00:05 PM UTC-7, nsuster wrote:

Anybody have exeprience riding the Crust Bombora vs. the NFE?  I'm also taking a hard look at the Nor'easter just not sure if the $300 price difference is worth it over the Bombora.  Crust vs. NFE is also Taiwan made vs. MUSA so there's that.  I think at this point I have the desire and cash to purchase a solid frame that will last and then build it up slowly to keep costs down (reuse some existing supplies).  Mainly I want to invest in the frame.

Looking for a commuter (15 miles each way over a large hill) with gravel/fire road riding capability on the weekend.

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[matthew shroyer]

Chris thanks!  Great info, and info from experience. All my blather is mostly extrapolation and quoted numbers.

I hope i like the bombora. I still want to try low trail though.

Matt

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[matthew shroyer]

Here is another one that is pretty close to the bombora, but with longer rear stays, a touch less trail, and a .5 steeper head tube. looks good!

https://www.sim.works/collections/simworks-original/products/doppo-atb-frame-set?variant=12097682243685

Matt

[Mark in Beacon]

Pretty close...but still, $755 away. That's alotta bike parts.

On Thursday, September 12, 2019 at 3:44:45 PM UTC-4, matthew s wrote:

Here is another one that is pretty close to the bombora, but with longer rear stays, a touch less trail, and a .5 steeper head tube. looks good!

https://www.sim.works/collections/simworks-original/products/doppo-atb-frame-set?variant=12097682243685

Matt

On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 6:43 PM matthew shroyer <shro...@gmail.com> wrote:

Chris thanks!  Great info, and info from experience. All my blather is mostly extrapolation and quoted numbers.

I hope i like the bombora. I still want to try low trail though.

Matt

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[matthew shroyer]

Mark, yup... I hear you, it's at least the rest of the build.

 Its funny, the longer i look at say, frames, the more justifiable upping the cost is for this or that seems to be , then... i look at my wallet, and the fact that i have up until just now always bought used, and the fact that my wife has been happy using her 26" long haul trucker for everything for the past 10 years, which have been fairly termultuoius in terms of the bike industry.  It took a few beers to finally pull the trigger and buy the bombora frame, but i was tired of looking, and there are not many out of the box frames that at least i found that are close to it. The geo seemed as close as i'll get to what i want without going custom, low q for my junk knee, and slack enough in the front for poor terrain, short enough in the rear to stay amusing while bare on the trail. Internally i like the pink and mermaids, but i would rather keep them to my self. i guess in truth I always loved mermaids, maybe I just did not want anyone to know.  I'll see how i feel when they get here.

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