Front derailleurs

[rcnute]

Hi folks: Having a tough time with what should be the simplest part.  My setup on my Elephant is a Ritchey Logic triple (low 150s tread), 135 rear spacing , 9 speed, Hetres.  The problem is getting the derailleur to go outboard enough to avoid chain rub in a big gear without hitting the crankarm.  I did a little judicious outer cage bending and spacer filing on a Suntour ARX derailleur and it works, but just.  What didn't work: 90s Deore XT, Suntour Cyclone M-II, Suntour Mountech, 80s Shimano MTB triple (all of which either hit the crank in a big gear or are going to hit a fender in a little gear).

Any ideas?  Thanks.

Ryan

[rob perks]

Somewhere back in the iBoB list over the last 5 years a similar issue came up.  Not so much on the fender end, but the shifting and rubbing.  A member mentioned something about not having the outer face of the shifter parallel to the big ring, but there was a way to point the tail in a bit for better shifting.  I can not remember the exact angle mentioned, something like parallel to the chain when it is in the 6th cog or some such voodoo.  The poster worked in a shop assembling hundreds of these on old MTB completes.  This may or may not help with your other issues.  On my last successful Ritchey crank build I used an NOS first generation Shimano deer head with said alignment and the leading tip of the outer plate bent in to better keep the 9spd chain from over shifting when coming back up onto the big ring.  It worked pretty well, and this was what I ran on Rambler No.1 for about 6 months.  

That said, all that fiddling is why I now pay up for the WI VBC, and recommend them to customers.  All the chain ring flexibility you could want in a double, with none of the chainline or derailer BS.  

At the fender end of things, would it help to remove some material from the fender?  Many wide plastic MTB fenders come with material all ready cut out of the offending area.

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Rob Perks

oceanaircycles.com

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Ventura, CA

 

[cyclotourist]

I have to do a similar thing w/ my Campy Racing T. The tail is angled in just a touch and it shifts a lot better. YMMV.

Cheers,
David

"it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride." - Seth Vidal

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[Jim Bronson]

I'd like you to do that to my Rivendell's front derailer.  It's overshifted on 3 different cranksets and 2 or 3 different derailers.  Not to mention both on 700c and 650b, and on 3 different rear derailers.  And about 3 different shops as well as my own tinkering.  Right now I have it set up so it's difficult to shift into the big ring but sometimes it still overshifts anyway.  Its the damndest thing.

What is the WI VBC?

Currently running Sugino XD600 46/36/26 with 9 speed Shimano 11-34 in the back, Deore M-591 SGS rear der.  Front der is a Campy racing triple, which are supposed to be good at shifting compact triples, if you can believe what's on the Internet.

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[satanas]

Best combo for me has been XTR M900 FD, outside plate bent inward slightly at the rear (for crank arm clearance), aligned so the inside of outer plate is parallel with the chain in top gear. It *may* help to bend the front of the outer plate slightly (if necessary) to prevent overshifting past the outer ring, or to help shifting down from outer to middle. Note that after bending clearance is still tight, but there has been no contact.

I ended up using a lower profile cable anchor bolt for clearance to the tyre on the big ring due to very short chainstays on one bike. YMMV.

Later,
Stephen

[Mike Schiller]

I use Campy triple derailleurs on all my bikes that have a similar setup as yours Ryan.  I haven't had to do any cage bending and they all work great.  I have a Racing T, an Athena and a Centaur.  I have also used a Suntour XC Pro successfully in the past.

~mike

Carlsbad Ca

[Alistair Spence]

I've had trouble with the exact same setup, getting it all to play nice. I ended up using a (10 - 15 (?) year old) Dura Ace FD and having to bend the cage somewhat. Kind of time consuming to get it just right, it was an iterative process. Pull the derailleur off the bike, bend, back on the bike to check, remove to bend, etc. etc. Worth it in the end I guess, but I would have much rather just bolted the damn thing on and been done with it.

Alistair Spence,

Seattle, WA.

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[Brad]

Some of the problem arises from too much engineering.  Front derailleurs now are designed for specific cranks sets, most often not the ones we use.  Old long cage Suntour front derailleurs work well over a wide range.  They are not trying to index a hard shift on a mountain in mud.

[WMdeR]

Whether a given derailleur will work on your bike is a partial function of the size of your outer ring, your seat tube angle, and bottom bracket drop. Bigger outer rings, steeper seat angles, and less drop will result in a broader range of acceptably-fitting front derailleurs. You'll also want to check the design chainline for your bike, and make sure it is centered between rings (on a double) or centered on the middle ring (triples).

I set up my Heron Touring bike (48/44/32 with a Ritchey Logic triple) with a Suntour XC front derailleur without issue or any cage adjustment, and I have used TA Pro 5 Vis triples with half-step +G gearing for decades with Campagnolo NR-era front derailleurs, though I habitually fiddled with the derailleur cages. Even the lovely and maligned Huret Jubilee works fine, though it tends to get bent easily and you can't expect a shift under any load. I know that 7s era Shimano mtb derailleurs (deore, XT, DX, anyway) work great with the typical (48/36/24 or similar) crossover triples of that era with friction thumbshifters. 

I use a wide-range super-compact double combined with a suitable many-cog cassette for my main bikes these days rather than live with the wider tread and fussier shifting of a triple, though fitting and derailleur adjustment haven't been a problem.

I've had good luck with modern campagnolo (8-9-10-11s era, so anything from the last 15 years or so) double front derailleurs, either the standard "racing" doubles or the CT (compact) double versions, (with the exception of the CT-specific veloce and centaur derailleurs, which work well, but have a brittle/fragile chromed cage and break at the unreinforced outer parallelogram arm bend). 

Modern triple derailleurs seem to be over-shaped to specific chainring sets (that's a 53-42-30  or 53-39-30 for "racing triple" setups) and the shimano ones in particular are dependent on appropriately set up ramps and pins to work right, even when used in friction. They work fine when carefully mated to the correct chainset, but are not versatile derailleurs in my experience.

Best Regards,

Will

William M. deRosset

Fort Collins, CO

[Evan Estern]

I've been using a Dura-Ace 7803 Racing Triple FD on my setup:  Rawland Stag, Dura-Ace 7800 rear, 11-27 9 speed cassette.  Sugino XD600 26-36-46 triple crank.  Wippermann chain.  It shifts great in the front, except--the chain occasionally hangs up between the outer and middle chainring on downshifts.  Anyway, there is plenty of clearance on the crank side and enough on the fender side with this set up.  I think my chain is getting stuck between the chainrings because the Wippermann chain is a hair narrower than spec for the XD600 cranks, but that's just a guess at this point. 

[desmond...@gmail.com]

I have near the same up. Switch the Ird fd an it works great( same chain)

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 24, 2014, at 17:09, Evan Estern <e.es...@me.com> wrote:

I've been using a Dura-Ace 7803 Racing Triple FD on my setup:  Rawland Stag, Dura-Ace 7800 rear, 11-27 9 speed cassette.  Sugino XD600 26-36-46 triple crank.  Wippermann chain.  It shifts great in the front, except--the chain occasionally hangs up between the outer and middle chainring on downshifts.  Anyway, there is plenty of clearance on the crank side and enough on the fender side with this set up.  I think my chain is getting stuck between the chainrings because the Wippermann chain is a hair narrower than spec for the XD600 cranks, but that's just a guess at this point. 

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[Jim Bronson]

This problem with hanging up between the middle and big ring seems to be somewhat endemic to the XD600.  I've had that issue and so has Nick Bull, who's also on this list.  Mine liked to wrap the chain around the pins.  I adjusted my shifting style some and that has helped.  I let up quite a bit now.

On Thursday, July 24, 2014, Evan Estern <e.es...@me.com> wrote:

I've been using a Dura-Ace 7803 Racing Triple FD on my setup:  Rawland Stag, Dura-Ace 7800 rear, 11-27 9 speed cassette.  Sugino XD600 26-36-46 triple crank.  Wippermann chain.  It shifts great in the front, except--the chain occasionally hangs up between the outer and middle chainring on downshifts.  Anyway, there is plenty of clearance on the crank side and enough on the fender side with this set up.  I think my chain is getting stuck between the chainrings because the Wippermann chain is a hair narrower than spec for the XD600 cranks, but that's just a guess at this point. 

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[Evan Estern]

That is really interesting.  I've adapted my shifting style to it as well, but every now and then I forget and then there's a chance it will jam.  I might just go with a different crankset eventually, maybe even switch to a double.

On Friday, July 25, 2014 10:34:24 AM UTC-4, Jim Bronson wrote:

This problem with hanging up between the middle and big ring seems to be somewhat endemic to the XD600.  I've had that issue and so has Nick Bull, who's also on this list.  Mine liked to wrap the chain around the pins.  I adjusted my shifting style some and that has helped.  I let up quite a bit now.

On Thursday, July 24, 2014, Evan Estern <e.es...@me.com> wrote:

I've been using a Dura-Ace 7803 Racing Triple FD on my setup:  Rawland Stag, Dura-Ace 7800 rear, 11-27 9 speed cassette.  Sugino XD600 26-36-46 triple crank.  Wippermann chain.  It shifts great in the front, except--the chain occasionally hangs up between the outer and middle chainring on downshifts.  Anyway, there is plenty of clearance on the crank side and enough on the fender side with this set up.  I think my chain is getting stuck between the chainrings because the Wippermann chain is a hair narrower than spec for the XD600 cranks, but that's just a guess at this point. 

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