Crust Lightning Bolt and RH Canti Brakes

[Max Faingezicht]

Hi Everyone,

I'm working on a new build and I need some help. The plan is to install a set of RH Canti Brakes on a Crust Lightning Bolt but before I proceed I have a question for other LB owners.

RH instructions say that your frame’s brake posts must be countersunk: The first 1.5 mm of the hole must be without threads. I see the threads don't go all the way to end, but I don't think I have 1.5mm without threads.

Has anyone installed this brakes on a LB? Do you happen to know if I should use the suggested 1.5 mm-thick washer or not?

Thanks in advance!

Max

[Artaud]

I don't have any experience with the LB, but I did try to fit RH brakes on a Canti Romanceur and the results were awful: terrible squealing, terrible stopping power. I should have listened to Matt who told me beforehand it probably wouldn't be a good fit it... I switched to a Paul Neo Racer / Touring combination, which solved everything.

Again, they may be a better fit on the LB (I don't know what the LB canti posts look like), but this ended being an expensive experiment.

Denis, in NC

[Max Faingezicht]

Ouch! Thanks for sharing your experience Denis! Not very encouraging but good to know.

I reached out to crust via Instagram- we’ll see what they say. Maybe I’ll stick with the original plan and go with Paul cantis.

Thanks

Max

On Feb 28, 2024, at 6:45 PM, Artaud <dep...@gmail.com> wrote:

I don't have any experience with the LB, but I did try to fit RH brakes on a Canti Romanceur and the results were awful: terrible squealing, terrible stopping power. I should have listened to Matt who told me beforehand it probably wouldn't be a good fit it... I switched to a Paul Neo Racer / Touring combination, which solved everything.

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[DB]

I and everyone I know that's used those brakes have taken them off and switched to something else.  I think the Dia Compe cantis that Crust sells for $30 are easier to set up and adjust and have better stopping power.  They don't look as nice though.  Pauls are great too.  

[JohnS]

Hello Max,

Sorry no experience with RH brakes on my LBC, but I did have a hell of a time finding the right canti-brakes for it. I had tried Tektro cr720, old school post brake pad Shimano Deore XT and Shimano cx50. I was never able to set any of them up without some issue, brake squeal or poor braking. Then last year I tried Paul mini moto's on the front and touring on the rear. What a game changer! I went from thinking of selling the bike to really enjoying it. For me, they were well worth the money. The only thing that I had to do special when installing them was to dimple the front fender to allow some room for the brake cable to cross over it, not a big deal. 

Good luck,

JohnS

[Ryan Witt]

Hi Max,

I’m running these brakes and am very happy with them. I recall using an appropriately sized spacer to overcome the countersink issue, but forget the details. I can send you more info on Monday when I get back to the bike.

Ryan

On Feb 28, 2024, at 3:48 PM, Max Faingezicht <max.fai...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Everyone,

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[Max Faingezicht]

Thanks John, my initial plan was to go with Paul brakes, but I got a very thoughtful gift and want to give the RH's a shot.

Ryan, thank you so much! The instructions ask for a 1.5 mm washer (6 mm inner diameter) if the posts aren't countersunk - is that what you used?

Thanks

Max

[Talbot]

Hey there,

Yes, use a 1.5 mm washer. I stupidly installed these brakes on my LB without the spacer and promptly mushroomed the brake post, resulting in locking up my brake and making it impossible to get off. After a lot of tugging and sanding I was able to rectify the situation. Other than that I have enjoyed the brakes. However, I live in western Colorado, and on occasion, when flying down a steep and windy road, the front brakes seem a little weak on the stopping power. Not really a problem, but my Paul cantis were better.

I am currently working with Jeremy at Gallus Cycles to get a new rando bike built and I'm planning to go with Rene Herse center pulls on that build.

Tal

[Max Faingezicht]

Thanks Tal, that’s helpful! I’ll try them out and see how it goes before I give up!

Good luck with the custom! Post pics when you have it.

Max

On Mar 3, 2024, at 2:06 PM, Talbot <tal.h...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hey there,

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[fordb...@gmail.com]

It should be noted that the René Herse cantilever brakes need to be toed in. This means bending the brake arms slightly in the correct direction, much like some MAFAC brakes. Bill Lindsey put up some photos on Flickr showing how he does it and I think Jan Heine wrote about it in his Journal on the RH website. It's a one time thing and only a slight bend.

Ford

Ghent, NY

[Steve Palincsar]

On 3/4/24 10:06 AM, fordb...@gmail.com wrote:

It should be noted that the René Herse cantilever brakes need to be toed in. This means bending the brake arms slightly in the correct direction, much like some MAFAC brakes. Bill Lindsey put up some photos on Flickr showing how he does it and I think Jan Heine wrote about it in his Journal on the RH website. It's a one time thing and only a slight bend.

Or you could get the toe washers RH provides.

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Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia 
USA

[Max Faingezicht]

Thanks. There are actually two versions, I got the one with the option that has washers for toe in. I didn't feel comfortable bending the arms!

I installed my RH cantis yesterday using the washer and they look good. I was surprised that there is some play in the spring, but I guess once they're under tension it should be ok. Setting the toe in was tricky, I got the front right away, but I still need to tweak the rear brakes some more. Regardless, I can't guarantee success until I actually ride the bike which is still a few days/weeks away.

I blew two tubes trying to install Hetres on Velocity Quills, so I might go to the local bike kitchen to see if a tire bead jack helps.

I'll report back

Max

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Max Faingezicht

[Max Faingezicht]

Something I didn't quite get, is that I got a second set of washers with my brakes. The manual calls for washers under the brake pads (part 28/28T) - not sure if those two part numbers refer to different adjustment washers? Does anyone have any idea?

Thanks

Max

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Max Faingezicht

[Max Faingezicht]

Nevermind, I found my answer: https://www.renehersecycles.com/shop/equipment/bolts/rene-herse-brake-toe-in-washers-and-nuts/

• 2 washers without toe-in
• 2 washers with toe-in

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Max Faingezicht

[Jeff Conaway]

Hi Max,

I have the same question - I'm building up a LB Canti and have been curious about trying the RH cantis.  For what it's worth - I asked on Path Less Pedaled Discord about this, and one person was running the RH cantis on their LB.  I'm not sure what generation it is, but I believe it was from 2020 - 21 (it was not the black gen 2 frame with the narrower fork crown).  The report was that they didn't have any issues with them and that they were more powerful than some Tektros (not sure what model) that the person was already happy with.  

The LB canti prototype that was reviewed in BQ also used the RH cantis, but there is no guarantee that the prototype will match all the nuances of your LB.

I know the RH cantis are not very adjustable, so everything has to be just right for them to work well.  If I end up trying them, my plan is to order one wheels worth with the toe-in washers to try on the front.  If that goes well I think I could measure everything and be confident about getting another set for the rear wheel.  If not I think one could sell them (preferably unbent) and not lose too much money.

There is a lot to like about the RH cantis, I'm still on the fence, and right now have installed gen-1 IRD (mid profile? similar to the Paul touring's profile) CAFAMs that I've had for years.

I will post back here if I ever end up trying them.

Jeff

[William Lindsay]

As a very general set of comments:

-I think a great mechanic executing a new maneuver for the first time is always a challenge

-I think a great mechanic gets a lot better at a new maneuver after they do that maneuver a few times

-The better the mechanic the fewer times they need to do things to get great at it

-Setting up Rene Herse cantilevers is a new maneuver

I just set up my first set of RH cantilevers.  I got stuck, with crap results, and was frustrated/intimidated.  Rather than freak out or give up, I stopped.  I reached out to Peter Weigle, who encouraged me to go slow, and that it's worth the effort.  He made an Instagram post outlining the new stuff I'd need to tackle.  I pushed forward with the job, which included designing and manufacturing my own special tooling.  Having done that I think the job may be a heavy lift for most home mechanics.  I think most bike part consumers would consider it more work than it's worth for brakes that are that expensive.  I'm sure my next RH cantilever set-up will go more easily.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Steve Palincsar]

I think I need to chime in with a reminder that there are two ways to set toe up on RH cantilevers: the constructeur method that Bill successfully executed, and the ordinary-folks method, of using the toe washers.  Bill's method is, of course better, but the toe washers work perfectly well too.

[DB]

Bill, this is incredible.  I can't tell if you're installing brakes or doing a remake of Fitzcarraldo in your garage.  

[William Lindsay]

Stever is right that there are toe-in washers optionally included, but they are set to one angle.  If you then want to "adjust" the toe-in, you are right back in the constructeur methods of filing the washer to meet your target angle -OR- bending.   Filing the washer definitely feels like lower stakes because you can always throw them away and get new washers.  If you want to just take the angle that the washers provide, or determine that it's perfect by accident, then lucky you.  Peter Weigle indicated that sometimes he can just fire the brakes on and they are perfect right off the bat.  Adjustability is only needed if you need it.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[JohnS]

Hello Max,

Where you able to get your RH canti's setup on your LBC?

JohnS

[Max Faingezicht]

Hi John,

Thanks for checking in. I did get them installed. It took a bit of patience but I think I got the toe-in right using the included toe-in washers.

I've had very limited time so I haven't been able to go on a long test ride. My initial impression around the block is that I managed to get them set up well enough that there is no squealing but I'm not so sure about stopping power. They felt weak on my TRP levers, I might need to adjust that or change the levers.

I'll report back at the end of the month / early next after I come back from some travel.

Max

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Max Faingezicht

[Max Faingezicht]

Reporting back on the RH cantis and the XL Crust LB (Gran Trajet Fork Crown version). 

I used the toe-in washers to install them and after some tweaking to get the straddle cables right , everything seems to be working great. I've only done a few rides but so far I'm very happy with the outcome. No squealing and great stopping power. Somehow my front is braking better than the rear, but I'm sure I can play with it a bit to get them just right.

I used a 1.5 mm-thick washer under the bolt head to avoid binding (hopefully). The brakes came with a brass washer which I didn't use, not sure if I should have.

Max

[jeffwc...@gmail.com]

Hi Max,

Thanks for the report! Good to know that the RH cantis worked out on you LB.  I'd like to try the RH cantis using the toe-in washers on my Canti Bolt at some point.

Jeff

[lena...@gmail.com]

Max, thanks for reporting back. What brake levers are you using?

[Max Faingezicht]

TRP RRL levers. I still need to adjust the lever placement - any tips to get them even?

Once I have it finalized I’ll snap some pics and post back here

Max

On Jun 15, 2024, at 10:55 AM, lena...@gmail.com <lena...@gmail.com> wrote:

Max, thanks for reporting back. What brake levers are you using?

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[lena...@gmail.com]

Thank you. Here is what I do to even the levers:

• Mount the bike on the trainer
• Loosen the brake lever clamp bolts enough to allow adjustment without sliding off
• Place a level along the top of the handlebars and steer to level the bars
• Be mindful to not bump the bike and change the steering angle
• Hold the level so it rests on the peaks of the brake lever hoods
• Raise or lower one of the levers until they are level at the same height
• Hold a long thin object next to the left-hand side drops
• Adjust the lever body side to side until it looks parallel to the object or at a preferred angle to it
• Repeat the same for the right-hand side
• Tighten the clamp bolts to torque

Hth,

Lena

[Sam Weinberg]

or use a fabric or flexible tape measure to measure from the bar ends to the bottom of each lever body. 

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[JohnS]

Hello Max,

Glad to hear your canti-Bolt is road worthy. Hope you enjoy it 1/2 as much as I do mine. I was out for a 66 mile ride today, with a climb to Blue Mountain Ski resort in Danville PA.

+1 on using a flexible tape measure to help get the brake levers even.

JohnS

[Carl Lind]

The method I use doesn't require measurements or the bike to be level. Place any straight edge on the top of levers  and  sight back to the bars.  Your eye will detect if the straight edge is not parallel to the bar.

Carl Lind

Seattle

[lj mangin]

Getting the brakes even has been a problem that has irritated me for some time.  I have had best results with a fabric tape measure, but I think I have a solution that works for me.  I attached a short velcro strap to a cheap expandable bar end plug, see attached pic.  Insert the bar end plug and pull the velcro strap along the bar.  Use a gray sharpie to mark the end of the velcro strap.  This may not be where you want your brakes, but you now have even marks on both sides to measure from.

You could also put a hole through a fabric tape measure and use that; I just had the velcro strap handy.

John M

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[Ryan Witt]

Nolan over at BikeSauce has a nice explainer with illustrations that is similar to some of the methods mentioned: https://youtu.be/6zNNAsu-ODA

On Jun 16, 2024, at 3:25 PM, lj mangin <lj.m...@gmail.com> wrote:



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<Bar end plug.jpg>

[Max Faingezicht]

Thank you! Your comments and that video were all very helpful.

Max

[Ford Bailey]

I slide the levers on the bars, clamp a board (a thin piece of plywood) to the bottom of the drop bar-- then adjust the levers evenly, referencing the plywood. It really is easier than measuring.

The level is not needed, nor is a tape measure.

Ford

Ghent, NY

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[Michael F.]

What about when the bottom parts of the bars are not parallel - ? Good mechanics have known about that issue for decades and how it skews the levers unevenly.

It comes from the manufacturing process, bending is not always 100% perfect.  Maybe it's better nowadays ? 

Considering the Bicycle Industry I'm familiar with, I am somewhat skeptical.

Even if the levers are level - Is the stem straight ? I've given up on that one, LOL.

MF in SF

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[Sam Weinberg]

you’ll also have to assume the floor is level and have claps and a sufficient board and then eyeball the bubble level. 

measuring from fixed reference points is definitely more accurate. 

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